"But if WH stands by his decision to divorce, I am still committed to my own recovery."

This is an important point for you PN. Regardless of your H's feelings, it is imperative that you heal yourself. Get counseling and maybe consider antidepressants. I wish I could speak with you more openly on this topic, but with the "bashers" lurking about, I'll just say you CAN recover from this and you won't have to carry a permanent "scarlet A" for the rest of your life.

Don't let the judgement of others here get you down. You are doing right by trying reach out and to fix yourself. Sometimes we get a ways down a wrong path before we look up and realize what we are doing is SO bad for us.

If you were totally unrepentant that would be a different story.

FCF,
have you read the posts on here and her other thread?
We are ALL telling her to focus on her recovery. We are telling her to get out of the relationship so she can personally heal- then she can start a new relationship- either with him (if he has also healed) or with someone else.

Where is that bashing her?

PN,
the reason we say for the WH not to come here if the BS is asking for help is as follows:

You are here seeking strategy to save your marriage

If you are given strategies and he reads them, he will be prepared to combat those strategies.

pragmatic discernment

what works
what does not work

Well, no one can accuse you of not being pragmatic pep.

She knows what she did was wrong, so like a dog who's sh*t on the floor you continue to rub her nose in it? And that helps?

What are the odds that this can be combined into one post, to keep it easier to follow what's being said in one spot?

PN,

I have questions:

1. Do you agree that you and your current husband started out wrong (i.e., an affair)?

2. Do you agree that your moral compass is under repair right now and you need professional guidance/coaching?

3. Do you agree that your personal recovery is far more important then your marriage right now because without it, there will not be a marriage?

4. Do you agree there is no easy and quick fix for the severe issues at hand and it will take hard work and a ton of time and committment from you to get to a place where you feel healed?

I am not disputing moral "right vs wrong" ...

I am simply stating that

dating while married is not a pragmatic way to begin a relationship

and separated = still married

so far, this lady (and ashamed H as well for that matter) has not decided if this was a mistake or not ... so far, it seems she thinks dating while married is likely to get her a good man

As far as combining this into one thread... this thread was started with a very specific question pertaining to the company owned by me and my husband. You all turned it into something else entirely.

There is another thread .. My story..how I wrecked my marriage. This is probably where this self-righteous bantering should be happening.

***********edit*****************
I'll just head back to my dungeon with the other sinners...

PN - no one here can say if your H can change. That is on him. You have decided you want to change. But, it probably will mean letting go of your H in the process. Don't let that stop yourself from healing YOU.

PN & AH,

I'm writing to you from both threads...posting just here, 'k?

I saw your return to MB post, AH...welcome back. I kind of zinged with you on Pep's post about not saving your last marriage...I immediately felt partially responsible. Doubting my advice, etc. So I'm wondering if this is God's way of adding to our lives and PN's, with a different message, and I hope I can bring this through for her (and for whatever you need in it, as well).

PN: AH tried very hard in his marriage to own what he'd done, change for himself and to own and amend. Seems like that's where you started here, on your threads, with your highest honesty (not right away, but close), and are walking in it.

First, I want you to know I wasn't going to post again to your thread. I didn't see where you replied to what I was saying directly...that consideration and regurgitation or questioning...which is essential to me to know my post was read and heard. I don't know what you heard. Then again, reactivity blocks out a lot. I would ask that you do this with this post...and I fully respect your choice not to do so.

It can feel like you're being attacked when others are attacking your wayward mindset. Reasonable...it's your mindset. I attacked AH's XWW's mindset a lot...sure can see where it can be confused with the person.

I believe what others are stating here and what I want to advise as well, is that you look at MARRIAGE separate from your marriage. Marriage itself...what is cheating, what attacks it, what aids, rebuilds, makes it thrive...not your first or second marriage.

If you can set that boundary around your first marriage, understand all that you did...see your false justifications, your self-deceptions and your wishfulness (none of this bashing/judging...this is where I walked and know the terrain), then you will see with clarity what to do/say right now.

Because what you did to The Marriage was separate from to your XBH. There are a lot of lessons in it...and a number of posters here have pointed to it NOT to bash your past (which you cannot change). I believe they are pointing to OWN it...all of it...to clarify your present. Whether you want to save your present marriage or not...you WANT to personally recover. This is an essential half of your personal recovery. Your first marriage matters greatly.

I am not rubbing your nose in anything...stinky or otherwise. I did not understand the sanctity of marriage until I did. I had no idea that there was me, my DH and The Marriage. Thank God someone pointed it out to me. I know where you've walked, PN...remember coming completely honest with our MC and hearing very much the same things these posters said. "You both trashed the marriage. You both have a lot of issues to work on. Your marriage may not be able to be saved."

Until I heard the reality, instead of the judgment, I didn't get the help from hearing the truth. I winced through a lot of comments...and learned how to take the judgment out of the truth...and the truth remained.

Truth saved my marriage.

What you did in your first marriage, your WH did in your second. In retrospect, your summary of your first marriage, you simplified (and I understand the summary for length of post), very much as a wayward spouse does, though. "Wasn't working"...and in your last post on this thread, I hear the same simplification for this marriage "we both messed up". Know the danger of simplication (skips over ownership). When you POJA'd swinging, you attacked your Marriage. You really did...and until you see this...not as bash but a NEW perspective...then you'll be able to hear what the advice you're getting as supportive, not attacking...bringing reality, because you remain in a wayward state of mind...which is (Gimble wrote this maxim):

An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect.

This is my wayward perspective formula...I know it intimately, from my own choices...and knowing this formula, you can identify when you are choosing to react or to act...and if what you're perceiving right now is through a lense of resentment, entitlement or lack of respect...and THEN BANK ON IT BEING DISTORTED AND NOT TRUE, 'k?

Rely on that being true. Your infidelity in your first marriage DEPENDED on this formula to give you permission to wreck yourself and the marriage and your BH as badly as you did. This is powerful stuff...which has no bearing on you being, wrong or evil in the past...it has everything to do with who you see yourself as, your self-image and your consistent betrayal of your authentic self.

Hurts worse than any other betrayal...and you're still doing it to yourself right now.

This is isn't about blame or fault...to me, this is about your belief system, permissions and self-destructive choices...all of which you CHOOSE, have complete control over..and what others here are asking you is to be AWARE of what you control and what you cannot (no human can)...and to choose beliefs which align to one another (God's guidance), permissions which add to the world through love, not subtract from it through fear...and to cherish, honor and hold yourself to healthy boundaries instead of destruction.

Another consideration is that there is no evidence whatsoever that your WH has any desire to have an intimate relationship. All his choices point to living a distracted, non-intimate life. I share this so you can see truth and choose from it...not from your wishful, loving, desiring inner child...from your adult knowledge that this man isn't desirous of intimacy. It may be his greatest fear. He's fully capable of being intimate, loving, monogamus. He chooses not to be.

Please respect his choices. Not about you...not being enough, worthy, powerful...not at all. It's about him and his fears...out of your control. I want you to use your highest honesty and acknowledge your fears, which you are choosing your life from, and live in reality.

Your biggest fear is fear of abandonment. Most humans on the planet have both of these fears to different degrees...fear of intimacy and fear of abandonment. How much we act from our fears, though, varies greatly.

My belief is that ownership is the path to freedom for everyone. When you get all your past choices without a wayward mindset, only then do you see and KNOW your own power...and limits...which is what was missing before.

Misplaced power...choosing to believe your actions would control another human's choices...is where you get stuck in perspective and cycles. Sounds like you wanna break those for good, am I close?

To AH...I do want to know your payoff in having PN's WH as your BF. Seriously consider, in your highest honesty, if your payoff is a false one. I ask for your benefit, your new life and new self out there...because all that he's done to others, he's done to you...or will do.

You are not safe from his lies, addictions, and choice to not be honest or intimate. True friendship is saying I will not support you when you destroy. I am here to help you build. True friends support the best and hold you to your worst...not as parents...as peers. They stay honest for you, when you lie to yourself. They stay reasonable when you distract unreasonably. And true friends do not stay when they find their own choices in the friendship are based on feeling better about themselves when their friends are continually in worse shape.

Has been my experience. My belief.

When you aid, give comfort, are a shoulder for someone who does not own the destruction to himself and others he does...then you are not being a friend, you're being an enabler.

You've learned a lot about priorities, acting from your code and knowing your intent, AH. Keep examining, discoverying and aligning yourself for your well being, for your relationship with God.

When I say to PN "I see a continuing wayward mindset", I'm being the best friend I know how to be. Be brave and true, AH, too. No bash...highest honesty. If you look to BF to give you better feelings about your past or present choices, then you may well be doing harm to yourself, others and your relationship with God through this choice.

Please reconsider. Wouldn't be you deserting your BF...would be you claiming all of yourself, even when the action may seem abandoning...wouldn't be. What's in your code?

LA

Yes indeed it does = still married!! Just so you know... I never said it didn't!


At what venture or point did I ever say that this was ok or that it was acceptable?? Stop projecting your assumptions into my thoughts!!

Once long ago we were best of friends and had each others back (not in a hiding secrets way people). I worked alongside WH as a bounty hunter and PI and we watch after the other. You get close to each other in times like that. As far as a Payoff... that would suggest that I am his friend now because I want or get something from it by doing something for it. I consider him a friend because if I need help he would be there. And he has... As in last year. [color:"blue"] [/color]


I know that nowhere in any of these posts have I condoned their actions. I know the truth to be that I have distanced myself from WH as much as possible because I needed to be away from that mentality. The last time I spent time with them was the night of a huge fight last year. I told WH he was wrong and needed to get a grip and help. If he wanted me to help I would. I haven't been back. I am still a friend and his BF. You don't turn your back on a friend because he is hurting or making mistakes. You try to show him /her her ways and help them get better. That is what I am doing as a friend now.
Ask PN if when WH started destroying, I was the one to bring that to his attention in a way he would listen. Although he continued he knew I was aware and became accountable to me thereafter. I then began to point out the error of his ways as I saw it and I am the one that got them to IC and MC and now here. I have become the friend you speak of and stil DONOT look to feel better about me because they are worse off. Sometimes I feel as if I have failed PN and WH... However when things like today happen, I feel better about what I have been able to do for them through this. I will let PN explain what happened. The jest is WH is now making a plea to not get a D and for them both to seek IC to fix self first and then work on M.
This occured after my solid stand to not be there for him unless he OWNED that no one person made him do what he did or does. He makes the choices to react or respond and I feel he is beginning to see the fog lift a little.
I feel at the juncture a Plan A may be able to be introduced but you guys havent seen the emails between us and that is ashame cause it was miraculous!



This is definitely not me LA... I have been firm on my position to him that he and she are both sharing a part in this and he is wrong an so many levels that he is on the verge of losing my help even.

on the contrary! I am looking to help WH realize what I realized because I do truely love him as a brother. I am standing by my friend to help him and her through what can and will be a very rough period in their lives and relationship. Only to know that if they put forth the effort I have and still am they will come out of this smelling so much more like a rose than ever. And as I like to say these days... 'God don't give you a ship that wont make the trip!"
As far as me feeling better about my past or present choices LA... I feel excellent about my present choices and have forgiven and learned from my past choices. So I need not nor search out any assurance from anyone else on anything. I feela nd am strong in MYSELF these days. I learned that from you BTW!! Thank you for helping me become me!!

I believe the last statement was for me to claim all of myself.... Read above to see if that fits the mold of claiming me...

But just in case PepperBandis lurking to rip this apart... I am going to clarify more... I am here to help them get through this... I am not in agreement of their actions in the past . I just choose to not condemn them because of them. They are making headway and the action of WH coming here actually seems to have shocked him into realizing hte breadth of the problem... Believe that if you want I do not care. So no need to comment. As for Me and my last marriage, I am solid in my knowledge that I have owned my part in it and have been confirmed in so many ways that I am so much a better MAN that it is amazing. Now I know who I am and know what I want and am working on getting just that. It is nice to have a person glow at how you are a man in their eyes...
Enough about me! This not my thread.. It is about PN and her WH... Help them/her or however you wish to look at it.

I will just watch and help as much as I can.

I love ya LA

AH... although not Ashamed nor a Husband anymore.

LovingAnyway,

I thank you for your constructive and intelligent comments.

I do however strongly disagree that I was being held accountable by the other posters. No. I was clearly being attacked for the way I lived IN THE PAST. I cannot make that more clear...IN THE PAST. Therefore, still having a wayward mindset is not true either. I have taken responsibility for ALL of my bad decisions and am making strides to change my life to find and become my authentic self.

I do want to make one other thing clear... rather I'd like to ask a question of the self-righteous posters... How many of you have spouses that cheated on you? Oh really.. were you swingers too?? No. Well then, I guess us being swingers did not CAUSE him to cheat on me. Because, if it were true than only people with a history of swinging would cheat on their spouses. Your correlation is spurious at best. As for deserving it.. No one, including me, deserves to go through this. If you do not believe that, then maybe you need to work on some self-esteem issues. That is the last I will comment on the subject..so you can fire back with whatever you want. It will be wasted.

I know what I did IN MY PAST was wrong on so many levels. But it is my past and I am dealing with it.

Staying with WH may also be a mistake. I am not sure that he will actually seek the help he needs. It is still an open question and remains to be seen. However, I KNOW that the Lord can bring about a change of heart and lifestyle in anyone. This is my prayer for my husband. It all remains to be seen. I do want to save this marriage and I am working toward doing that. I pray that my husband does the same.

I am in, and have been, in counseling. I am, and have been reading all the books on recovery and marriage and religion. I am, and have been seeking support in many different forms. But my trust and faith rests in the Lord, and only in the Lord.


As for AH. He has been an amazing source of support for me and has not put up with WH lies and deceit for one minute. AH has held WH accountable and is probably the total reason that WH is saying he wants to work on the marriage now. Again, we will see if he really does and if it's a good thing to stay or not.


I met AH while he was married, talked to him about the problems he was experiencing through his break-up and divorce and am an even closer friend now. I can attest that he is a changed man. Being that he has faced similar issues and has been close to WH for so long, I cannot think of anyone better to hold WH accountable.

I really do not have much else to say. While there have been a few, and I mean a few, people who have given constructive advice. Most of my dealing have been with people who make themselves feel better by tearing other people down and have provided no valuable advice or direction. I do not have anything further to say to those people and will no longer defend myself against their ignorant comments. I have better things to do with my time...which can actually be helpful to my recovery.

Thanks again LovingAnyway and AshamedH for your help.

AH,

Thank you for your response. I'm glad you're supporting your friend with the tough love I know you have for him.

And for being a friend of PN's marriage, as well.

You remain in my prayers and I support you on your moving (back and forth) for your son. I know you are living now without regrets...sounds like you have solid clarity, consideration, honesty and respect...got your code, doncha?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

It shows. Thank you for bringing PN here, as well. Good to know you believe in MB.

LA

PN,

When I say I see traces of the wayward mindset, I'm not bashing you. I stumble across my own remnants. By posting and reading, I continue to learn and grow.

When you describe your first marriage, I don't hear ownership. I don't hear kindness or consideration, active remorse. May be my half--my perception. Would you care to reconsider? I believe it would aid you now, in your present marriage.

I know you are not who you were. These remnants are leftover beliefs, hiding deep. They were with you long before you met your first husband...that's my belief. Mine were. Ferreting them out (as I'm still doing to this day) isn't a makeover...it's a transformation.

Understanding intimacy and abandonment...our cravings for and our fears of...is what is tied into all your past experiences. Neither you nor your WH is broken, defective. I know AH sees this and most likely has shared this with you both. Knowing what we are choosing and why...from what we chose...leads us where we can choose well and live that way, from our choices.

Are you using recoverynation? Are you reading here on MB a lot? How 'bout Alanon...are you considering attending a meeting?

Thank you for posting. I, too, have been reactive to what I perceived as "self-righteous" posting...and I found in me, a part which cringed, shied with shamed, and was profoundly angered...from me knowing how much I had done wrong in my life. Was part of the cycle which kept me looped...reactive resentment. Hearing them with new ears...choosing to believe they were sharing their opinions with the intent to open my eyes, change my loop, helped a lot.

Still smarts, stings and bites. No doubt. I remember. Part of the growing, in my experience. Points to where my wounds fester and from what. I believe such signals can lead us to healing, even when we feel at the time, destroyed.

Know you're whole. Live from it. Look at who you were before and know your whys...otherwise, we make the same choices again, which is what I don't want for anyone here. They'll look completely different and then, be the same.

Awareness, not judgment, PN. Would you like to explore what I see?

LA

Hi PN:

I haven't posted very much to you. There is only so much time in a day and it looked as if you were getting needed advice without a lot of input on my part.


Some of the folks who were throwing rocks did so because that is their knee jerk reaction while others did so because they didn't read and understand where you were coming from. You are in redemption and that is clear.

Thus you will get no stones from me. OTOH, I do not see your husband as being in redemption and that is like oil and water for the two of you. It is going to be really, really tough for each of you to live down past self destructive activities and even more so if one of you is not fully onboard.

I commend you for your efforts at self redemption and I commend you for attempting to get your husband to find a different path in life. I am not so sure that your efforts will be rewarded where he is concerned and I hope that his continued negative influence on you will not bear fruit instead of the positive influence you attempting to use.

I think that LA is a good resource for you and someone who can be of help with advice. Glad the two of you hooked up. And AH, hang in there, you are doing good.

Larry

You don't BECOME your authentic self dear. You ARE what you are.