I was reading Pepperband's posting of Notable Posts. I didn't want to thread-jack so I'm going to ask my questions here.

Pepperband quoted the following:
[/color]

[color:"black"]I'm in this situation - sort of. I'm divorced, but trying to do a Plan A with a 180. I have been told by some here that the principles can still apply post-D.

XH has been in a R, my story is in a few threads here.. but long and short is that she moved away some weeks ago and his R is still continuing, and I've more or less been sitting on the sidelines, Plan A-ing in the passive hope that he'll wake up and return to his family.

After reading the post quoted above, it occurs to me that I may be going about things entirely the wrong way.

Plan B is nearly impossible for me, because we own a business together, and must work together. For about 6 months he was out of the business completely and I was dark except for communications about visitation etc. However he was totally wrapped up with his GF. I was seeing someone at the time too (yep, I was fogged in as badly as anybody else).

I've been on my own again for about 6 months. XH has been "on his own" but not really, for about 6 weeks. He is still in contact with GF and planning a vacation to see her in a few more weeks.

Am I doing this all wrong? I was under the impression that Plan A (with the 180) was the carrot and STICK. Perhaps I'm doing the carrot part right, but not the STICK. As to the 180, I'm carrying on with life on my own with our kids - and I'm OK.

Now I'm wondering if I'm filling some of his EN that his GF can't right now because of distance, and that behavior on my part is actually helping to prolong his relationship with her?

Or is that ridiculous?

We aren't seeing each other outside of work (he works PT in our business), he has declined social invitations from me, although we spent DS birthday evening as a family and last night we had a family meeting with our children.

If I went "dark" insofar as keeping things strictly business, I think it would send him the wrong message - so I'm trying to reach out to him in the small ways that I can right now, hoping to draw him closer. He seems to get closer, then pull away again. Never quite close enough to have any sort of meaningful discussion about feelings and/or possible reconciliation, but close enough that we're getting along well, negotiate situations with our kids well, he tells me about his day and I listen attentively, we have times when we can laugh and joke and use old inside jokes and expressions that 20 years of history can create.

Am I doing this the wrong way? Is my attempting to fill his EN actually enabling him to eat cake to some extent?

I'm confused now... somebody please straighten me out <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

JinGA

do you understand this?



do you agree with it in principle?

PS

this:

"Discovered his EA 1998 (others/PA?) "

makes me nervous about the point of attempted reconciliation with a serial cheater ~after~ a divorce

why are you not relieved to have him behind you and find a man who is not a serial cheater?

really .... honest question (tell you why in a moment after you respond)

eating cake
refers to EMAs

not post-divorce

he's probably enjoying your friendship a lot

but, you are divorced, so I do not consider this friendship with you "cake"

I don't know for a fact that there were ever others. I did observe female co-workers that hit on him (at least that was my perception) however I never found evidence of this for sure. It may well have been my own insecurity. Perhaps I need to adjust my sig line - aside from the EA I don't *think* he had anything else before that - and I never saw any behavior at all to suggest that anything happened after that was exposed. His actions spoke louder than words, and I was watchful. Our M did not end because of an A. It ended because of untreated depression in him (which he sought treatment for AFTER he bottomed out after we separated.) The depression helped fuel some other major LB behaviors that did not involve any OP. I finally could not take it anymore. If you happen to peruse my other posts, you'll get more insight into that.

I do believe that once the EA was busted - long after it was over, he demonstrated true remorse. That was crunch time for us. Like I said, his behavior after that where fidelity was concerned, I could not find any fault with.

Perhaps when I wrote that sig line I just wanted to see the worst. That's my problem, not his. And believe me I know how to snoop.

I do think I understand the passage you quoted, and that's why I'm questioning my own course of action at this point in time. I *am* demonstrating the positive changes I have made in myself, and I am doing my best to make love-bank deposits as much as I can within his boundaries, and not to LB or DJ. I think I'm doing a pretty good job at that, however I'm unclear about whether it's appropriate (since we're divorced and he's not in an A, he's free to be in an R if he chooses to be), to try to do anything further to "break up" the relationship he's having.

It would seem inappropriate to interfere with his R. If we were still married, there'd be tons I could and should do to that end. However we're divorced. I filed. I followed through. It wasn't what I wanted, but it was necessary at the time to safeguard my kids' and my financial security, our business, and my emotional security. At the time I told him it wasn't what I wanted, but wants and needs were distinctly different at that time. I told him then that I would try to keep my heart open to the possibility that some day he may change his mind and want to come home - and that's where I left it at that time. That was 18 months ago. He was in the R at that time. I had started an R of my own, it ended, then after my attempt at reconciliation proved futile, I resumed the R I'd been in, and I also ended it. So effectively I'm back at square one.

I may have taken a bad road to get where I am today, but my own journey served to show me that I love my XH, and showed me what I'd lost. Mistakes are what they are. I own mine, and I've learned from them.

Part of me feels that XH still has it in him to want to work things out between us and come home at some point, but sometimes I think it's just wishful thinking.

Mixed signals abound with him. Perhaps he doesn't know what he wants. Perhaps he doesn't know just how I feel (although 2 weeks ago I told him I still love him, but he may not equate that with R - I didn't take that conversation past that point.)

I'm stuck in a stalemate. I want to tell him how I feel, and ask him to consider trying to work things out between us, but I won't move forward with him while his GF is still in the picture. So while I've been "waiting" for that situation to burn itself out (and I do believe it will sooner or later), I've just been trying to show him as much as possible that I'm safe for him, and make the possibility of R known to him without actually coming out and saying anything.

I'm also afraid of rejection. When I approached the possibility before, he tried to engage in cake-eating and I didn't play along. He said he'd think about it, but all the while he continued on with the GF and made some bad financial decisions - so I did what I thought best and proceeded to safeguard our interests (even his, where our business and home are concerned). At that time I felt that he chose her over his family and me. I guess he did. Once I decided to close that door, I met with all kinds of anger and hostility.

I want to approach him again, but I'm afraid to have that door slammed in my face again. Catch-22. If I don't, I'm going to sit here wondering forever, and if I do and get hurt again well I'll have my answer.

I guess I'm afraid that I'm not going to hear what I want to hear, and part of me thinks that waiting til perhaps the fog lifts a bit the longer the GF is gone (but not forgotten), will make him more receptive to what I have to say. She left, but they are still in contact as if the R is still as strong as it ever was. Unless he plans to move to where she is (that's a whole other post), he's really at a dead end with her, he just hasn't noticed that part yet.

So part of me thinks I should just wait til he realizes this for himself, and part of me wants to just "go for it" anyway. I'm my own worst enemy right now.

Thoughts?

JinGA

OK. That makes sense, and I tend to agree that he's enjoying the friendship. He wouldn't allow us to be as friendly as we are now when the GF lived with him but as soon as she announced her departure, even before she left, I felt like I got my friend back because he didn't have to prove to himself or to her that we *had* to be civil adversaries anymore.

To demonstrate his behavior today, as it pertains to "cheating". I believe that he has declined social invitations (friendly ones - not dates) because he does not want to put forth an appearance of impropriety.

I've invited him several times, out to dinner with myself and the kids, and twice when his brother was visiting. He has declined. On the occasions when his brother was with us, he asked us to pick up take out and drop it at his apartment on the way home, which we did.

I believe that in his mind, if he socializes with us as a family, he may create either false hope in me/us, OR perhaps he may send the impression to the GF that he's cheating if he tells her, and deception if he doesn't tell her.

I can't really fault him on that, in fact if he sees a future in that R, he's doing the right thing by declining.

He made an exception for DS' b'day - we went out as a family, that was just over a week after GF moved away. She called him twice during that outing, and text messaged him once. I guess he had to account for his activities.

She calls him frequently when we are working together on weekends, although he stops at our business most evenings for a short time, I'm not sure if she's aware of that because he didn't do it when she was still living with him. He doesn't stay long, just checks on a few things, we chat for a bit, then he goes home.

I just wondered if his allowing me to fill some of his EN (talking about our common interests that he doesn't have with GF, or listening to how his day went, or updates on people he knows that GF may not know...) is filling a void left by the GF, and thus, he's able to continue to "be happy" in his R, because I'm filling in the gaps, and thus, he's not missing out on those things.

Does that make any sense?

JinGA

your goal now is to present yourself in such a way that he will fall in love with you and you will re-marry

is that correct?

Yes. That's what it all boils down to.

I have seen positive changes in him - he is better than the man I married now, and nowhere resembles the man I divorced (thankfully!).

I have made positive changes too, and I'm still working on myself daily to continue to grow and mature.

I still love him with all my heart, and I'm hopeful that he may feel the same way.

I know it's not as simple as all that - and it's not something that will happen overnight - if it happens at all. However I know that I'm able and ready to work on things, IF he feels the same way. I haven't felt safe yet in communicating this to him to see if he feels that way too. I get mixed signals from him - sometimes I feel like he wants to reach out - and without his even consciously trying he's filling plenty of my EN right now, more so than he did at many points in the M.

He has effectively attracted me back to him - and I doubt he was even really aiming to do that - or if he is/was, he hasn't taken that step to say so either.

Could be he's just as scared to as I am. However as long as he has the GF in the picture, it's not going to happen. Having the GF sets his boundaries for me (for both of us) but he almost seems to be hiding behind her. It's almost like at times he's trying to convince me that they are still as strong as ever, and then at other times he makes small comments that tell me he realizes it's over between them and he's "cutting his losses" (and there were many losses, particularly financial ones).

If he kept it "all business" I'd get that message. If he pushed it further, I'd get that message too - but he seems to be somewhat in between, but he does not cross the line that would constitute "cheating" on his GF, but at the same time it's almost like he's exploring his own feelings for me within the safety of his own boundaries.

It's like he won't let go of one to reach for the other, but he can't (and won't) try to hang on to both - if that makes any sense.

I'm heading out to work now and I'll be offline for a while, but I appreciate your taking the time to talk to me about this, and I'll catch up when I return later.


JinGA

you don't come off as scared

rather committed to a path

looking over some of the replies to your other thread ....

you are no longer dealing with a "foggy" WS ....

this is an X-husband now

I think "fog" is not the correct way to describe his thinking any longer

to me anyway, "fog" is an illogical & nonsense thought processes

if he likes single life ... and he is single .... he's pretty much not "foggy" .... because it is logical

the post-divorce marriage I helped guide back into a re-marriage was one where the person wanting the remarriage had been the wayward .... her X-BH liked being married (until her affair) .... so she gave him what he wanted .... a wife-prospect .... until he re-chose her !

your husband may not have liked being married & perhaps he prefers the single/dating life

have you thought of that?

Is your XH better suited to being single?

PS:

I am not trying to discourage you ... but to help you see that perhaps you might be comparing apples to oranges ...

I appreciate the candor. That's why I'm here.

He didn't want to leave the M although we were both miserable. I couldn't take his behavior anymore, so I asked him to move out - more or less as a bluff or ultimatum. It backfired on me, and we wound up divorced. I don't know if he would have eventually got treatment for his depression if we'd stayed together. All I know is at the time he was emotionally abusive because his moods were "everybody's fault" (or my fault), and he self-medicated with recreational drugs (which I won't tolerate) and porn (which I also won't tolerate). Once he got treatment for the depression, and he agreed to random drug testing for visitation, he got emotionally stable, clean and sober (he does have the occasional social drink but I haven't seen him drunk in 15 years) and he told me some time after we separated that he'd kicked the porn habit. I don't know if at that time that was his roundabout way of asking me to consider taking him back - but he never asked outright so if that was his intention, I totally missed it.

I wouldn't say he likes single/dating life. He hooked up with the first online personal that didn't ask him for money (well not until 4 months in) and he moved her and one of her kids here. The second child followed a few months later. Now she's gone, but they still maintain a long-distance relationship. Statistically those don't do very well for very long.

I think he prefers "family life" and if he'd found a good woman who complemented him, I'd have wished him well. Doesn't change how *I* feel about him but I love him enough to only want him to be happy. Well that hasn't worked out too well, she up and moved back.

He hasn't said so, but he's lonely. Calling me in to work on a day off on a weak excuse... that's not wanting to be alone. I'm happy to oblige - I came in, we worked, we chatted, we laughed, and we got the job done.

Tonight after closing he was scheduled to go do some work at a client's. I offered to help, he politely declined - he didn't think it would be that big of a job. Well 10 minutes after he got there, he called me. He didn't bring enough supplies with him, so I brought what he needed and helped him, then we came back to the shop to put things up. I just got home - we worked *together* for over 2 hours past closing time.

He's not a "crowd" person - but he's not an alone person either.

We work incredibly well together - always have. As a married couple when times were good, we were very good together. Once times got bad, it got very bad. Perhaps not *as* bad as others here - but it was bad.

When I refer to "fog" ... I realize it's not the same fog as an A, but he most certainly was living in fantasyland for the last year. The R he was in, has been headed on a path to self-destruction for a while. She didn't work, no DS, troubled kids... they were in a bad financial way (well XH was... she had no income/money), and IMO (and it is only my opinion - from the amount of negative bank mail that still comes to him at my home), he's probably financed our bank's recent renovation, by paying crazy service charges. One can't live like that forever. His credit is now damaged - it was excellent when he moved out. IMO a partner doesn't work against you in any way, you work together to better your lives together. IMO she dragged him down, big time. He even has told me little things that indicate that he does realize that he's better off economically now. "I'll be spending a LOT less now..." or "I finally paid off and closed that credit card"... he's regrouping in some ways, but still stuck in other ways so it seems to me based on our conversations.

I do truly believe that *if* the feelings of love are still there in him, for me, that we could work things out, and given that we've both seen the grass is only greener over the septic tank, we *could* have things better than ever together, as we do work together, we move forward together, we made a life and a family and a home together, and all that is still here for him if he chooses it. He chose to take control of his depression, and other things fell into place and he stopped being an "alien" and started being the man I married once again.

I'm on a path, yes, but I'm scared. Scared to make myself vulnerable by having that exploratory conversation with him, in case he rejects me.

And it's foolish. Either he still loves me and would be open to exploring a reconciliation, or he doesn't, and will just tell me NO. I'm the one with the problem now, in taking the steps to address it.

I keep thinking that the presence of his absentee GF is either going to make or break things if I approach him. It seemed to when I approached him before - but that relationship was new and exciting, and it was more enticing than the comfortable shoe that I had become.

If he had sent clear signals either way - I wouldn't be having this discussion. If he sent me a signal that he's interested - I'd go for it. Trouble is, just when I think he may be sending one of those signals, he pulls back.

We've been getting along better than ever, at work. While at work we talk about all kinds of things - hockey for one (good game last night!). We talk about news of the day, stuff that we've got going on, friends and acquaintances, our kids - whatever there is to talk about, we can talk about it - EXCEPT anything personal and profound about ourselves. We're both guarded about that.

I almost had an opportunity to have a private talk with him after hours,tonight, at our shop after closing when we finished the late job. Only snag was, the kids are at his place and DD had supper waiting on him, she didn't know he was going to be late. Things took longer than we thought. We had a good day and he did not seem stand-offish this past weekend. For the last week or so he's been a bit aloof, but not so much so that he wouldn't call me to come in on the Memorial Day holiday with a weak reason just to get me there. He said he smelled something burning and couldn't find the source - when I got there, no smell (and the place hasn't burned down...) - I ended up helping him for a couple of hours. Then he invited us to his apartment complex to swim (first time he's invited me - wouldn't have been right when his GF lived there) - but he didn't join us.

It's like he wants to be around me, but he won't take the next step, or he spends a bit of time around me then takes his leave before it becomes obvious he's just hanging around. I'm doing the same thing. I love to spend time with him and it's mostly about work .. about 95%, and the other 5% is about kids.

He wasn't the one to make the first move when we first got together, I was. I almost wonder if he's trying to send me a message that he wants me to make a move again?

Or maybe I'm just reading it all wrong. I'm not trusting my gut these days. My gut says he'd at least think about it - but something is holding me back - fear of GF. As somebody else stated - he doesn't have a ring on his finger, so I shouldn't worry about it - but I do.

We aren't open tomorrow (he has a full-time day job, works our business PT and I work it FT), but there's a pile of trash that has to be brought to the dumpster and nobody had the time or vehicle to do it tonight, so he said he'd do it tomorrow, and I told him to call me and I'd come and help.

He may do it himself - he may call me to help, as I asked him to just call me if he wanted me to come and help. If he does call me to help and it feels like it might be a good time, I may ask him if he's got some time to talk. I can't sit here trying to figure it out forever...and if I've read him wrong, nothing will change - we will still be friends. It's not like he's going to hate me for confessing my feelings.

I just don't want it to be awkward - it hasn't been since I told him I still love him - but at that time I didn't elaborate on it. I just told him as I was leaving, and let him stew on it. Since then he's been close, and at times he's been distant. Perhaps he's unsure what I meant in telling him that - did I mean I still love him but I don't want to do anything about it? Or do I still love him and want him back?

I've invited him to dinner with the kids and I once since I said that - a week later, and he declined. I haven't invited him in 2 weeks.

I guess I'm going to have to pick a time sooner or later and just get it all out there - it's just scary.

JinGA

ASK him out on a DATE

he says "no"

wait a month

then ask again

what's the ~worst thing~ that could happen with this approach?

That is the worst thing... he says NO.

Honestly I doubt he'd accept a date invite from anyone as long as he is still "in a relationship", and that is how he considers himself at this point in time. It doesn't matter that she packed up and left, they are still an item.

I may try to work up the courage to do that though, even though he will likely decline.

If he won't grab dinner at a restaurant we do business with, with myself, his kids and his brother, it's highly unlikely he'd accept my invitation for a date. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if he was offended by it because it would tell him that I had no respect for his 'relationship' status.

JinGA

Then again... it may surprise the heck out of him <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

JinGA

and then what? your nose falls off ??? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

YOU SAY

"I understand." then, use your TERMINATOR impersonation and with a HUGE smile you say

"I'll be back."

pinch him on his [censored], give a wink ... then say NOTHING for another month

keep it up

he'll weaken I bet'cha

or .... do the following:

Read

The Sweet Potato Queen's Book Of Love

buy yourself a tiara
and study
"the promise"


LOOK AT ME ~~~><img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> do I LOOK like I care that he will not "accept" right away ????????????? huh?

expect a NO
prepare a pithy cute sexy response to the "NO"

and then try again in a month

are you too busy?
*snort*


screw your courage ... think like a fox


Pep's don't'give'a'chit'face ~~~> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />


pinch his [censored], and whisper "the promise"

he'll get over it

or NOT
do what you've been doing, you like it so much

BWHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

I knew I liked you for a reason <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> You don't mince words. Normally I don't either - I much prefer the direct approach, although you would never know it...

FWIW, the last time I invited him to dinner with the kids and me, when he declined, (to go home alone), I did ask, "What? Do we smell or something?" He chuckled and said no, we didn't smell.

So then I told him that if he didn't take me up on an invitation soon, I'd just quit asking him. He kind of chuckled and shrugged and went on his way.

Is that almost partway to what you're suggesting? *g*

JinGA

go for it

be bold
be funny
and do not give up

take "no" as a "not yet"

I will.

Funny my kids came home tonight from XH's. DD is physically my replica, but emotionally, her father's - although she's much better at verbalizing her feelings.

We talked - hypothetically. For not quite 15 she's wise for her years.. she suggested I let him finish falling on his face, figure himself out on his own for a while, and *then* say something. She also figured it would be 50/50.

And NO I'm not trying to stir false hope - they know how I feel about their father.

DS said that a few weeks ago when he and his father were discussing the vacation he's planning to see the GF (the one I won't let the kids go on...) out of the blue he said to DS that "this doesn't mean mommy and I are getting back together".

WTH?? Where did that come from? DS never even mentioned that at all. He'd simply answered when asked, that NO he doesn't like daddy's GF. My kids were polite and respectful to her when she was here, but they let it fly (with me) when she left. I'm glad DS was honest - but from that response, XH draws a line between DS not liking his GF, to "mommy and I aren't getting back together" ???

That's ok I've got a positive attitude anyway. When DS was 4, we went Christmas shopping for their dad. XH lived in another city (2 years to move us all - long story) - anyway I told DS to keep quiet about what we'd bought him. On the phone that night, when XH was asking DS what he'd done that day, he said, "We went shopping, Daddy, and we did NOT buy you any slippers!" We both still laugh about that <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

So I'm just going to take that comment that XH pulled out of his butt to DS, as "he didn't buy any slippers" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

JinGA

Oh and while I'm waxing philosophical for the moment... earlier today, I forget just what happened, but a customer made an outrageous request (jokingly). After we laughed and said no, both XH and I said, "It doesn't hurt to try!"

Later, DD called to see if she could go on a movie date. We grounded her yesterday. So after discussing it with XH, we agreed not to let her go today but would revisit that "eligibility" next week.

After I got off the phone with her, we both agreed that it sucks to have to punish the kids... and in regards to her asking anyway, "It doesn't hurt to try!"

Perhaps that needs to be my new mantra <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

JinGA