Chachanges,

You said on another thread: [color:"blue"] You made a point that I have tried to make for a number of years on here. Swinging is POJA and not cheating. Thats exactly why I get frustrated with the bashers. Enough said on that one.[/color]

You seem to be passionate about the support of swinging in a M.

Thanks for letting me opine here a bit. It is my OPINION that swinging is outside the scope of the MB forum. I would imagine that it is outside the scope of entire MB process completely.

I have yet to see Dr. Harley support swinging or promiscuouty in any of his publications. He’s a smart gentleman and I don’t believe this was just an “oversight” on his part. He likely knows that it has no place in MB’rs.

And while swinging may likely be reasoned away by you as a legitimate marital recreational activity; it is considered by most people in American society as an abhoration of behavior.

Certainly it IS adultery as defined biblically, legally, and by the moral compass of most people.

You can change your handle all you want but the definition of adultery will always remain a constant, it’s derived from OLD English to give you an idea of how persistent and rock solid the concept is.

You can read the definition of adultery with your own glassed over eyeballs here. Adultery as defined.

And to chime in. . .

That same definition includes the words used to define the same thing from Arabic to Turkish and a bunch of languages in between. It isn't just English, it isn't just Judeo-Christian, it is across most religious beliefs.

I can see the conversation now. "Hey but God, we had a good time and it was POJA!"

Larry

POJA is not to be used on behaviors that are destructive to marriages. "Swinging" is nothing more than adultery and is devastating to marriage. Anything that is devastating to marriage is not advocated by MB, naturally.

Yeh Larry, and some of dem dat der too!

Actually I think it goes back pre feminist movement days in Cro-Magnon man times where one caveman wanted another caveman’s breeding stock.

Also, monkeys still do it to this day.

The female monkey just shakes her as$ in front of the male monkey and says “squeak squeak”. That’s monkey for “what the heck, come get some.”

I’m guessing of course, as I don’t speak monkey.

I seen it on National Geographic Channel a few weeks ago though.

Swinging could also be equated to pigs rutting in the pig pen. There is no love, decency, honor involved, only getting off. I always think of animals when I hear of swinging. It is nothing more than a sick, bizarre degradation of a beautiful gift.

POJA how to destroy intimacy in a marriage ... gee, why didn't I think of that?

anyone want curly fries?

How many women have we seen and heard of on this forum over the years who DEEPLY RESENTED scummy husbands who talked them into swinging? [yes, they were also to blame for going along with such a monstrosity] Its almost a surefire way to end up hating and disrespecting your husband. ugh! Talk about lovebusters! Talk about unmanly!

PIGGIES

**snort** <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

any man that pressures his wife to swing should have his testicles removed with a rusty spoon... doesn't sound like he really needs them anyway since he isn't a real man to begin with.
Any woman that decides to swing might as well charge for her services since she is choosing to prostitute herself.

Have integrity... have the decency to repect yourself and others....

ML is dead on the money comparing this to pigs rutting in the mud.

LOL at MEDC! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Chachanges,

Please be clear about your rhetoric over swinging with other couples.

On one hand you seem to be saying that we don’t understand about swinging and that it’s not cheating.

On the other hand you seem to be saying that you think it’s not good for the marriage.

I can tell you that swinging has no place in MB’ing. None what-so-ever.

Not only that, but honestly, I don’t feel SORRY for anyone that agrees to swinging and then suddenly finds themselves in the midst of estrangement.

People that AGREE to swinging agree to the repercussions of that sort of life style. Even youngsters know it is morally debased and despicable. People that subscribe to that life have far more serious issues than can likely be helped by this forum.

Any self respecting person, male or female, would not submit to that sort of behavior. Period.

Please be careful in the advice that you are offering people here as most of them are in tremendous pain and deserve careful consideration as to what steps they can take to help insure restoration of a healthy marriage.

Where did Chachanges go?

Looks like Chachanges disdisappeared.

probably changed his name again

Sorry to disappoint everyone but I am still here. I didn't see this thread until just today. Probably just as well because it looks like a pretty angry mob.

I totally agree that swinging is completely destructive, ungodly, and has no place in a marriage. We could use the same three words for adultery. The difference between the two is in the case of adultery, the WS betrayed their partner. The WS lied. The WS hurt the person they love beyond description. The actions the WS took has an immediate impact on the BS.

In the case of swinging, both partners agree. Yes they are agreeing on something stupid. Yes they are agreeing to something that they really don't understand. But they agree. Its POJA. Since they both agree, there is no betrayal. Both partners agree so there is no lying. They remain married and committed to each other. They think this is all going to be a new and exciting journey for them. They have no clue what train they just got on, together, and no idea that the train wreck is coming. They didn't agree to the repercussions.

As is always the case, one spouse decides that they don't like the swinging. At that point there is no POJA. The problem is the sacredness of marriage has been violated and for the WS, sneaking around and going behind a BS back doesn't seem like a major offense. The mindset of the WS, is there can't possibly be adultery since we are swingers. I am not sure what the WS would call it, but in their mind its more of a "communication issue" or a "misunderstanding" or even "entitlement because you agreed to swing".

It's all fog speak of course, but its a different fog than a vanilla relationship. The fog is much thicker because at one point they both agreed to do this within the boundaries of their marriage.

The BS hurts just like every other BS. The BS should be treated with just as much compassion as every other BS on here. Yes the BS made a mistake when they jumped in board the swinging train. But that doesn't mean we should push the BS under the train and say the marriage is doomed.

IMHO I think the Plan A/Plan B approach is just not going to cut it for these cases. The reason is because there was POJA on the swinging and they did this together, the whole environment of missing E needs and LBs that fuel vanilla affairs isn't there. So why Plan A at all? But I am no expert. The only thing I do know is compassion is required to support the BS and help out in any way you can. Thats MB way isn't it?

CC,

I hear you saying that swinging spouses are in a fog to begin with...doesn't negate the pain and suffering from their definition of infidelity. Wipes out and wakes up, same fashion. Am I close?

I believe exposure works really well...because the WS broke the agreement...the foggy one. And I think exposure wakes up the BS to how foggy that POJA really was...and re-examines if they signed up for it in their own high self-honesty or not. If they were doing it to keep their WS or not...or hedge their bets or whatever.

Guess I believe Plan A works...and Plan B.

I also believe that the straight talk here to a BS which demands them to be in their highest honesty with themselves (which they aren't from their original fog), is a compassionate act. May not feel like one. I know it hurts...and I grew from it. I know others did, also. Even identifying compassion is important, for growth. In all it's forms.

I believe no marriage is doomed...not in God's design. Guess that's because I've been forgiven so much, and received so much grace in my life. I know others can as well. Gotta be tough enough to take it, though. Advise those here to be tough, 'k?

LA

You are right on target about both being in the fog. Also because they both agreed to swinging, the fog it pretty thick.

One person snaps out of the fog and the other stays in. This infuriates the WS even more than the typical vanilla relationship because a lot of the blame gets pointed back to the BS. "You agreed, you just can't change your mind like that!!"

Exposure didn't really work for me. I exposed everything including the swinging (from the past) because I wanted everyone to have all the facts from me, not her. It was actually quite embarrassing for me to expose because I was also exposing myself. The reactions were very similar to what you see on MB. No compassion, no sympathy, no help. In fact everyone jumped to conclusions and the poor victim in this story became my WW. I think primarily this was gender related, even though I was very clear that we were monogamous (or so I thought) and her affair involved a lot more than sex. Emails, phone calls multiple times a day, secret meetings. She got the support, and the flowers, and continues to carry on her affair right under everyone's noses. People only believe what they want to believe.

Me? I learned very quickly after exposure that it was just me and God. I went to a very dark Plan B and am doing well. Only time will tell.

Would you consider exposure as truth working for you?

Meaning...you changed from living in fantasy into living from truth...and that self-honesty broke your own fog?

Ouch...she's still carrying on with her affair right now?

So you're the BS, eh? PN's thread really hit home...must have hurt a lot, given PN was the wife who woke up...was that your prayer for your WW?

Have you gotten that fog comes from self-deception...where your WW isn't rejecting you, deceiving you...that she really was doing that to herself and not paying attention?

Did you expose to OM's family?

MB is big...not a microcosm. We are diverse and mixed group...please keep your heart wide to see all those here...and hear those who post to you from their honest opinions with the intent to share, not to roast...there is compassion, astonishment, fear-based reactions and old-wound pain here...just like in real life.

Can you comprehend the basis for these reactions? What A's are is the belief that replacing our partners perfects our lives. That is the killer fantasy. In swapping, we are literally replacing our partners, even temporarily...and using people as objects...add-ins...says the partner is deficient, the marriage, defective...not enough...for just two...and I believe swapping comes from a deep fear of intimacy...and stays attractive for that very reason...bars intimacy, with the fantasy of feeling closer.

So the fear of abandonment (which kicks in when fear of intimacy drives too far one way), doesn't kick in...all from fantasy...false beliefs and perspectives.

When it crumbles, it hurts as much as coming out of an A...has that been your experience?

LA