anyone know what

"liebestods" means?

is he talking about electronic music?

Wagner's opera Tristan and Isolode ....

I get it....

doh

Quotes from Dr. Harley:

1)[color:"blue"] “Marriage is a very special relationship. Promises are made to allow a spouse the exclusive right to meet some of these important needs. When they are unmet, it is unfair to the spouse who must go through life without ethical alternatives.”[/color]

2)[color:"blue"]”When you married, you and your spouse promised to be faithful to each other for life. You agreed to be each other's only sexual partner. You made this commitment because you trusted each other to meet your sexual needs, to be sexually available and responsive to each other. The emotional need for sex, then, is a very exclusive emotional need. If you have this need, you will be very dependent on your spouse to meet it. You have no other ethical choices.”[/color]

3)[color:"blue"]” Why does traditional marriage need to be defended?
Traditional marriage is a permanent and sexually exclusive relationship of extraordinary care between one man and one woman.” [/color]

I think that whatever your personal religious beliefs are, that multiple sexual partners doesn’t fit into the MB program.

Dr. Harley promotes "traditional" marriages.

I've never seen him make exception for a hybrid arrangement!

That’s why I suggested IC.

I’d also suggest a call to Dr. Harley himself to try and untangle this mess.

The equal sign in the equation of marriage is never going to result in happiness when the operator in the equation is promiscuity; weather consensual or not.

Let me provide a summary:

If you have ever been involved in swinging then you have committed the most heinous of sins and no matter what happens in your future relationship that sin will follow you around forever with a big scarlet S. Don't ever plan on getting any help from MB because of the scarlet S since even the thought of it makes people sick and disgusted. The only solution offered by most people on MB is to divorce your spouse and stay away from MB forever since your character and your soul is forever damned to ******.

Here is something to think about. Think about your WS in the arms of the other man or women having "monkey sex". Think about how he or she lived for those moments and couldn't get enough of that monkey sex. We could even make "funny" songs up about all those long sexy phone calls and emails that your WS had with their lover talking about all the fun they had the last time they got that hotel room. I know, something about makin pancakes would be really really funny. Ha Ha Ha!!!

Boy now that sounds pretty sick and disgusting doesn't? In fact it makes me want to puke.

Grow up children and try showing some compassion and grace.

"compassion" for what exactly?

And what were your other screen names?

Grow up...hmmm...Let me see....

a) marry someone. Love them. Be faithful and care for them no matter what the difficult. Honor your commitment. Live up to your responsibilities.

b) think only of yourself. Live for your own gratification regardless of the harm caused to anyone else. Take no responsibility for anything.

Which one is more "grown up"? I'll give you a hint. It's not you.

c) change your screen name often because you have something to hide

Chachanges,

I’m assuming that you are here because of the failure of your M and the fact that you want support to try and recover it.

When I seek advice from people in life, I seek advice from people that have had success.

In this forum that would be success in executing the MB program and adopting the philosophy of Dr. Harley; weather or not the marriage was saved is not the only measure of success here.

If you are asking for help, then here it is:

See an INDIVIDUAL COUNSELOR and figure out WHY you would have chosen to have multiple adulterous sexual intercourse experiences outside of your M and validated/suggested/supported the same for your W.

Have you entertained the idea that you may be addictive? Both of you and your W? Do you have addictions? Are either of you sexual addicts?

I can’t speak for anyone else on the forum, but I’m happy to try and help you. I just offered you some advice two paragraphs above. If that’s not what you want to hear, then that’s ok, but know that I BELIEVE that your best next step is to figure out the WHY’s with someone that can be the measure of normalcy and help to center your thoughts on what is practical.

Answer this:
Specifically what have you done so far to recover your M?

List in steps what those things are in a timeline just like everybody else would.

Stop changing your name so people can follow your story and help to better assist you in your quest for a recovered marriage.

Understand that a big part of the MB program is raising the bar on MORALITY. Period. If you can’t accept that then you can’t work the program. While Dr. Harley does not endorse any particular religious denomination; he definitely DOES endorse high values, esteem, and maturity.

Hopefully, people that can answer you with compassion will do that. Others that don’t have anything to offer your situation, hopefully will not.

But what you have to do is be willing to accept that the things that are said may not necessarily fit into your mind set.

Where many of us see a square peg going into a square hole, you may see it as a round peg that will never fit into a square hole.

Sometimes when we are the only ones that can’t see something that everyone else sees, we have to conclude that what we see may be something misunderstood.

Regards,

compassion and grace for the children who are forced into risky situations because their parents decide their adulterous orgasims are a higher priority than traditional marriage values

If you or your W have addictions that are unresolved Dr. Harley very clearly says that the MB program WILL NOT WORK. Those have to be taken care of before hand.

I agree Pep.

It's an unfortunate, little talked about, ugly truth that the children pay the highest price for adultery period.

The blabberings of "we kept them from knowing about the A" are all poppycock.

The damage is being done to them just the same, even without their knowledge.

Believe me, the kids know EVERYTHING thats going on. Its the parents that chose to pretend and claim they don't to further their own selfish and destructive behavior.

Grow up children and try showing some compassion and grace.

Well...you cannot change what you don't acknowledge.

When people start down that path, they can expect it to AFFECT every part of the relationship. Loss of intimacy...who needs that? A relationahip is hard enough to maintain without losing that vital part.

If you say pointing that out is not having grace or compassion, how did you arrive at that conclusion?

committed

adulterous orgasims

insert an "n" in there and you would have organisms...
which can be described as:

"bacterium, protist, or fungus"

FYI....these are the lowest links on the food chain.

Lower than plant life...and we ALL know what that means. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

committed

I'm responding to many people here, forgive me but I don't remember who said what...

>For me, there were four people involved. Me, my H, the OM >and the OM's wife. NOT just a married couple.

Ah, well that makes a difference because a monogamous couple was involved.

----

If adultery is simply sex with someone other than one's spouse, then I'd say that without an expectation of monogamy there is nothing wrong with adultery per se. Suppose you became paralyzed and couldn't have sex. Would you really be cruel enough to expect your husband to go without? I sure wouldn't.

What I did wrong was break a promise to my husband then lie to cover it up and not tell him. Simply having sex outside marriage is not necessarily wrong. It depends on the marriage.

-----

As for the effect on children, if there is no expectation of monogamy in the relationship, then there are no ill effects on the children because there is no promise breaking, no lying, no sneaking around. And if I had an open marriage I would not be embarrassed if other people knew because I wouldn't be doing anything wrong. I personally know someone who was raised by parents who had an open relationship and he was not hurt by it at all. He's fine with it, in fact.And they never kept it from him either. It wasn't a dirty little secret, it was just a different subculture. And he's fine with it. Never had a problem with it.

And what would be the point of marriage without sexual exclusivity? Isn't it obvious? Lifelong companionship. Some people believe that exclusivity gets in the way of lifelong companionship because spouses will sometimes get divorced to be with someone else. With an open marriage you eliminate that risk. I understand that most people consider the risk worth it, but some don't.

About sin -- not everyone is Christian or Jewish or Muslim. People have no obligation to follow the dictates of someone else's religion.

As for my screen name - come on, it's Aphrodite! (In Rome, she was Venus) Goddess of love. Who wouldn't want to be the goddess of love? So what if the ancient Greeks had temple prostitutes. Every day of the week and most planets in our solar system are named after Greek gods for crying out loud. Are you petitioning to have the days of the week renamed too? Ooohhh..better not do anything on Wednesday! That's Woden's day!

Aphrodite said:



Aphrodite,

You really are a piece of work.

Aphrodite, I was actually quite sympathetic to your case to start with. You reminded me of another poster who is in a very similar situation but has made every effort to understand herself and put things right.

But this pushed me over the edge.


You see, when I married my H there was and still is an expectation of monogamy. That's what we vowed before God. I stuffed that up and have been making amends ever since. Our exclusive relationship was forever tainted by me.

I just can't reconcile any of this with the image I still have in my mind of my H sobbing on the couch. I can't reconcile it with my DD confiding to my best girlfriend that "I'd completely f***ed up her life."

You ask what would happen if I was paralysed. Actually, I know my H loves me enough to deal with that without sex. If he was paralysed, the way things are for us now, yes, I'd cope with that too. Neither of us would like it. Our sex life is EXTREMELY important to us, even at our advanced ages (52 and 58) but we'd deal with it just to be together.

Pio, why don't I ever listen to you.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I would definitely remain celebate for gemela. No question. I'm pretty sure that falls under the category of " What is...in sickness and in health?". I'll take "Marriage Vows" for $200 please, Alex. DING DING DING...A Daily Double! The answer..."the result of thumbing your nose at God"...

Aphrodite is playing a different game. She is playing "Eternal Jeopardy".



If I knew the answer to that, maybe I would try it on gemela. I think the problem is me. Least common denominator and all...

KiwiJ,

>You see, when I married my H there was and still is an >expectation of monogamy.

Okay, well then I agree whoever cheated was wrong. But someone mentioned swinging and open marriages and that's what I was talking about. I don't think it's fair to put them in the same category as someone who was expected to be monogamous, snuck around and broke that promise and told numerous lies to cover it up (assuming all their relations are with single people or non-monagmous married ones.)

pio,

>You really are a piece of work.

Yeah that's what everybody says when I make an argument they can't refute with a rational counter-argument.
All,

Well it's great everybody says their spouses would remain celebate for life if you were paralyzed because they love you so much. But I'm sure there are also paralyzed people who love their spouses so much they choose not to impose a life of celebacy on them.

I forgot to add one more thing. "Traditional" marriage hasn't existed for a very long time. Traditional marriage was when a man kidnapped a woman (or girl) and forced her into marriage. The wedding ring was originally a piece of rope tied around her finger to remind her of her bondage to her husband. Next came arranged marriages, which still were usually forced because the bride had no choice. She was considered property of her parents until her father "gave her away" to her husband, which is why at weddings today the father "gives away" the bride. None of these marriages were entered into for romantic love. They were purely economic arrangements and in the case of royal families a way to make political allies. Marriages based on romantic love and emotional intimacy are MODERN, not traditional. In the context of the whole history of marriage, marrying for love is a fairly modern, progressive concept which has radically altered the definition of marriage over time, ( and for the better, I would hope you all agree.)

Aphrodite, I'm aware that modern marriage is different from what "traditional" marriage was all about. I work in the Political Science department of my university and this subject comes up a lot. Marriages were also about property.

Mine wasn't. Mine was a "modern" marriage to show our commitment to each other before others and before God. I wanted and still want my "modern" marriage, whether it has changed from the "traditional" marriage or not.

Interestingly, my DD's fiance asked for her hand from my H. He didn't quite put it like that. He gave my H the old fashioned courtesy of letting my H know he wanted to marry my DD and asked if there were any objections from us as a family to him asking her to marry him. We were very impressed, more because of his consideration for us a family, than for "asking for our DD's hand."

I actually know a couple where the H is paralysed and was paralysed at a very young age. There is no question of separation or divorce or her going outside her marriage. In fact, they had another baby recently. My mind boggles at what THAT entailed but, however they did it, they managed it.

I think because I've seen true love in action - my mother's devotion to my father during his last illness - I know it can be done. It could be said they were "old" but I'm pretty sure their sex life probably ended only when he became sick.

To say that it shows your love for someone by telling them they don't have to be celibate if you can no longer provide sex for them is completely misunderstanding love and genuine marriage.