Hi Trix -
I belong to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Sometimes called the Mormon church.

I'm not a pastor really - if I understand the term.
My day job is working in a camping store selling tents and sleeping bags. The church service is unpaid, part time. I do council local members in some things, and can refer them to professional councilors if needed. My main job is directing all that goes on in our local congregation. Part of that means making sure those who need help (in all areas of their lives) get what they need.

Thank you for your kind comments. I see from your children's ages that you are about the same place in life that we are - though we had a surprise on the tail end, and have twin girls (14) still at home. Our oldest son is also 29.

If memory serves me, you are in the bay area? I have a son who lives in Oakland.
I hope things are well with you.

SS

SS, I think I already knew that you are a LDS. I either asked a while ago, read it, or guessed because of the area you live near and the number of kids you have. We have neighbors across the street who are LDS whom we've known for 27 yrs.

Our son just turned 30 in May , so I just updated that info. I grew up in the SF Bay area but have lived in the Tampa Bay area for the last 27 yrs.

You do this very well - that's the feeling I get from you, even in cyberspace. Thank you. We have a priest at our church - he's a married Catholic priest - one of the few Anglicans who transferred over and were allowed to remain priests even though they were married - his wife isn't Catholic - he's like this with me. I went to speak with him in 2002, at the same time I came here...his eyes are full of joy...every time he sees me he asks how I am...I say I'm OK...he can tell I'm not...he's now dying of cancer, but palliative care has made it possible for him to say Mass. Every word he speaks is precious to me because he is so close to death...his voice is still strong and vibrant...last week, I decided to approach him after Mass and tell him the dream which you reprinted here. I felt that he had given to me, and I wanted to give back to him something to help him through the days ahead....I wanted him to have a vision of who is waiting for him on the other side. I told him I would only take a few minutes of his time, and he and I stood in the hallway outside the sacristy - he took my hands and looked straight into my eyes as I told it to him - his eyes were filled with joy...it really is lovely to share. I get that kind of peace coming from you, too, SS - and...I had guessed your church was the Mormon church...-)


I think that you are absolutely right about me. I do just need to talk to someone. I have been "dark" for two years, out of fear, because of the bad situation I referred to above with my kids' school. But now that the follow-on inspection report has been published, I have nothing to fear regardless. This needing to talk is a sign that I am ready for counselling, I think. I am grateful that I have been able to come back here and try to work out these needs in my head...and also, I do have good friends, but you know, friends are always biased...here, you are more likely to get an objective response.


I am too. I know she does. I remember when she came to the forum...something about motorbikes....-)


It's OK - I am grateful for the time you give. I know there are a lot of other people on this forum, too, who benefit from your help. I don't know how you do so much.


I had a dream that I was riding a bicycle and felt the tire going flat - I pulled in for a pitstop and the mechanic showed me that I worn the tread away completely, in fact, I was riding on the rim - no tire left at all - could God, and you, be trying to tell me something???-)

About your ulcer - have you been checked for Helicobacter pylori? It would be a simple blood test. My dad had an ulcer for 40 years and had a bleed where he lost 40% of his blood. Silly man - he's a doctor and didn't recognize the signs...(rolls eyes)...anyway, I told him about this because I had seen a program on television about it...he got himself checked and lo and behold, he had it...it is cured with a simple 3-week treatment of antibiotics plus bismuth...it is a spirochete bacteria which bores holes in your stomach lining, and 85% of stomach ulcers are caused by this. You could look it up on the web...it is one of the great medical discovery stories...the doctor who discovered it couldn't get anyone to believe him, so he drank a potion of the bacteria and made himself hideously ill, then cured himself...he's now at Univ of Virginia, working on stomach cancer....maybe you are one of the 15% whose ulcer is not caused by Helicobacter pylori, but if you are, you needn't suffer anymore...




And what's that one about having your name "written on the palms of my hands"? Isaiah?


Salmon fishcakes!! I've been sick for three days, but fully recovered today so I decided to treat them all - I let YS pick out what he wanted me to make...he helped me - they were good, good, good!


Do you mean do I want to talk more about the details, or about the Devil? Scared of him and wish he would let go of my H.

About that "only uses the information he has on you to help, never to harm..." It's good to remember this. Do you think that we should aspire to be the same? I have a lot of information on my H, and I really don't want to hurt him, but I have felt forced to expose some of his behaviour in order to protect myself. I think this is what has harmed my H's feelings for me...the knowledge that I have gone to a solicitor and turned over evidence that is irrefutable proof of his transgressions - material that can really hurt him. I think he thinks that I wanted to hurt him. I didn't. I was afraid of what he would do and I needed to protect myself legally. I needed him to know that he wouldn't be able to get away with hurting ME. So when I told him that he could sue me for divorce if we slept apart for two years, because I really don't want to do something that will damage his reputation, I think that is why he came home and hugged me. He was relieved to know that I would not do this to him. So I have to keep my word to prove to him that I mean it. Kinda got myself into it, didn't I? Sounds crazy, but I'm trying to be merciful. I also what him to have what he really wants, and if he wants a divorce he can have one.

I did have an experience of forgiveness a few months ago - I was sick then, too and had to spend a couple of days in bed. I woke up one morning and it was like someone was pouring a river of clear water through my head - it was all clean and fresh, and I felt no anger or animosity or grievance against my H - just a very large benevolence - and this was there even though he had done what he had done - it all just didn't matter anymore. I felt what it would be like to not feel hurt and angry anymore. He came to see how I was and I asked him to come sit on the bed - I told him about it and that I didn't know why, but I wasn't angry with him for anything anymore, and I put my arms around him and hugged him. He leaned over and put his head in his hands. He said he was sorry things had to be the way they were but we just had to go on like this. It was so sad.

That hasn't made any difference. He is still angry and unhappy and keeps himself to himself. He still says that he doesn't love me. I don't know...maybe he is just totally disillusioned with himself and doesn't know how to go on...doesn't believe it is possible, and hates himself...probably still haunted by memories of OW, and maybe he is someone who has to be "in love" in order to feel happy - a "romance" addict.

Well - I have to go now. Time for sleep. I wanted to say Hi to Trix - I remember you, too - so nice to hear from you. Thank you for stopping by.

I'll meditate for awhile on what you said, SS. I'm slow...takes awhile to sink in...

All the best,
LIR

I was sure I could get packed, and get everything ready, and still post, but it isn't working.

It's after midnight, and we need to be on the road to the airport by 6 am, so this will be short. We are doing a cruise from Seattle to Alaska along the coast to celebrate our 30th. I may not be back on the web until July 3rd.

LIR, I hope you are well. We'll be praying for you. I hope you smile a lot, and laugh enough when it's needed.

"See" you when we get back. Sorry this is so short.

SS

How are you this morning?

Or whenever you read if it's not morning.

How are the boys?

Your H is about the same?

Oh, and your boss is well now?

SS

Bump

Hello ss -

I'm really sorry it's been so long. I hope your cruise was everything you hoped it would be. My father and his wife went on an Alaska cruise several years ago and loved it. My father is not a "cruise" person, but he admitted to having a lovely time and said he would not have missed seeing the ice cliffs for the world - loved the color of the ice....I hope you had a good holiday.

Thank you for coming back to check on me so soon. I apologize for not responding until now. I knew you were away and I got overwhelmed and didn't come back to check until yesterday. I haven't been able to post until now.

It's now midnight here so I won't stay up too much longer, but when it's quiet, I am able to concentrate better.

I'm OK. My boys are doing well. My older son is now out of school for the summer. He has completed his first year in his new secondary school. He won a scholarship to that school and won a significant prize at the end of this year for his achievement in his specialty. I think this has done a lot for his confidence. He has settled down this year, made new friends and is starting to come out of his shell a little, although he remains very shy. The teachers in his new school have been very good and have realized that rather than being arrogant, he is simply awkward because he is shy, that he underachieves because he does not want to stand out, but he is really quite bright. They and I are expecting that next year he will start performing more up to his level intellectually. Last year, my son went through the selection process for scholarships. He is very single-minded and had his heart set on a particular school. He entered the scholarship auditions, but failed. The school he is at now is his second choice. I actually believe that God knows best and that the school he is at now is the perfect school for him. But it was an ordeal for him to go through the selection process and fail his first choice. It was a great growing experience for him, though and he is more mature because of it.

My younger son has 1 1/2 more weeks to go. Tomorrow he has his induction day for his new school - making the change to secondary school in Sept. He is very excited - really positive about it as he will see a friend that he hasn't seen in two years. It's a good school which can offer him a lot, so I am very pleased that he has managed to get in. This is one of the reasons I have not separated from my H, even though I am unhappy and it is not an ideal situation. In my area, children go through a selection process at age 11 - they are tested in maths, verbal and non-verbal intelligence. If they pass the test, they can be accepted into a more academic school - in other words, the smart ones get to go to better schools. It's not fair and I don't like it, but that's the system. I worked hard with my son from Sept last year until he took the test in January of this year...he also had some private coaching. He passed the test right on the mark he had to get to pass. It was his choice to take the test and I am proud of him, and very relieved that he didn't fail. It's way too much pressure to put on kids at this age, and I wish they would abolish it, but so far they haven't...my point is that this was a crucial time in his life and this will have a big impact on his future....I didn't feel that separating from my H would be the right thing for him at that time.

So you see, last year, my older son had to go through his particular selection process, and this year, it was my younger son's turn. Both of them have succeeded in their goals and gained places in good schools.

Would they have achieved this if I had been embroiled in a plan B these last 2 years? I don't think so. I admit that my marriage is a mess, but I don't think I could have done any better.

On a different note, I have talked to someone else, someone I know who is a psychiatrist. I started talking to her about seeking counselling for myself. I think some of what she said was very helpful. Like she said that if I went for counselling it would need to be for me, not to try to find a diagnosis of my H, since he won't come to counselling. I knew that and felt that already, but she elaborated and said that even if they were able to diagnose my H and attach a label to him and his spectrum of behaviours, that it is still MY experience of him which matters - that the 18 years I have spent with him every day give me a better picture of what he is like...that I am the best one to judge what the trouble is and how I think I can deal with it...but what therapy can offer me is healing for my own "injuries".

I think talking to her helped me feel more ready to start IC - I realized that I need someone to talk to...I AM very lonely, even though I have some very good friends. I just have this feeling that it is not enough. And I'm scared that I can't relate on an intimate level anymore. I'm too scared of being vulnerable, and have become used to being out on my own, so to speak. I think I have to deal with that before it goes any further.

My H is about the same. Same pattern. Just when I thought things were going pretty well...he was starting to tease me again, we were kissing goodbye in the morning, little hugs here and there...he even complimented me on my new skirt...suddenly we end up in an argument over something really small and stupid....well, one of those things...same old stuff....communication goes all totally haywire somehow...I take offense at his tone of voice with me, he insists he is being clear when he is being obtuse, I get upset, he shouts, he accuses me of shouting at HIM and putting him down, I say I've had enough, this will never work, I leave. Go away and cry.

The details were that several months ago, he asked me to take some stuff to the dump, which he put in the back of the car....OK, I KNOW it was months ago....but I AM very busy...I make promises, and I don't always keep them in the time frame he wants me to do them in...I keep them, but in my time frame. I also had trouble doing this because it turned out there wasn't a place at the dump for electrical equipment and old printers, etc, like there was supposed to be, so, actually, I did go to the dump months ago, but brought the stuff back, meaning to find a charity to take the stuff...things being how they are, I never got around to doing that..and there it sat minding it's own business, until now...when I actually DO have time to deal with it.

So...the car breaks down...we buy a new car and have to clean out the old one...now he's frustrated because we have to transfer the stuff from the old car to the new one, and it STILL has to go to the dump. OK, I can perfectly understand why he is frustrated with me. I apologize and say I will do it ASAP, after I get back from taking YS to school. H decides not to wait and gets on with doing it himself...but he seems pretty resentful about it to me. He's just not the least bit cheerful...he's very business-like with me, telling me what to do. We get the job done (its not that big a deal - just a few bags and boxes and he has transferred most of the stuff by the time I get there) - I'm ready to go to the dump (having decided to put it all in the crusher as there is nowhere else to put it) - and he says to me as I am leaving..."BTW, there is a CD player in a bag in there - make sure you don't throw that away".

I stop, because I KNOW there is an old CD player in a bag in there, which he specifically asked me to get rid of. So it sounds to me like he is changing his mind. I say "Are you sure? I thought you said you wanted me to get rid of it." "I just said not to." "But before you wanted me to throw all this stuff away. Are you now saying you want me to keep it?" Now he gets upset, like I'm challenging him. "Look, I have said it clearly...there is a CD player in a bag in there, make sure you don't throw it out with everything else!" Now I get upset. "Don't take that tone of voice with me, I'm just trying to clarify what you want." "I've said what I want, I don't know how I can be clearer!" And he REALLY starts talking down to me - then he accuses me of trying to "catch him out" and trying to make him look stupid. I don't know what he's talking about now, and I get really upset with him for being upset with me. I feel I am only trying to satisfy him - I am afraid of doing the wrong thing and am trying to clarify what he wants. I am also tired of being treated like this and decide to stand up for myself, but I get mad and finally stomp off saying he has to look at how he communicates and this is never going to work!

I drive off, crying, get to the dump and discover that there are TWO CD players in bags in the car - the broken one, AND the car stereo that he has removed from the other car. So he was talking about the car stereo, not the broken CD player. Of course, he wants the broken one to be got rid of, he just didn't want me to throw away the good one.

So my question is...why didn't he just say that? Could he not tell that I was confused...especially when he is the one who had moved the stuff from one car to the other...he had to have noticed that the old CD player was one of the items he had moved - it was only half in, half out of a bag. But maybe he didn't - so maybe it was all a big misunderstanding. Or maybe he deliberately set me up. Maybe he deliberately unconsciously set me up and I fell right into it. Because he was getting too close to me, so he had to set me up to fight with him so he could feel bad about me again. I got really upset with him at this point (while I was at the dump) because I felt that he did all of that on purpose - deliberately withheld the information - that he KNEW there were 2 CD players in bags in the car, that he realized I didn't know what he was talking about, and made no effort to clarify himself with me, that he knew what I was confused about and was willing to let me stay confused...that he wanted a row and engineered one and I fell right into it.

This is an old pattern. I guess its still active.

So that happened and I guess it has all helped me realize that I need to get some counselling for myself. You said in one of your posts that I seem to use my thread to think through a lot of stuff that I need to talk about and I think you are right, ss. I think that is what I do, and it is probably an indication that I need counselling.

I just read welderman's thread - he sounds a lot like me, except his kids are older. I can relate to how he feels.

Anyway, I've got to sign off now.

Thank you for asking after me.

All the best,
LIR

Hello Trix -

I'm so sorry I didn't reply to you...hello, too.

I apologize for not acknowledging you earlier. I hope you are doing well.

LIR

I had a post all done and lost it, but I'm going to do it again, because I think it's important.

Here I am again - it's morning and I have a busy day ahead - it was a busy school run morning, with YS going to an induction day at his new school...I bought a family ticket to the event this afternoon/evening for all new families...H is working all day and says he can't go...I think I will go anyway...

On reflection, I have been thinking that the incident with the CD players is an example of "crazy-making" - it sure made me feel like I was going crazy, and I got very emotionally upset. I still can't figure out whether it was a misunderstanding or whether it was a set up on his part to get me into a fight. JL, on another thread, said to me that I am punishing him by refusing to engage with him, and that I didn't have any business complaining as I have exactly the kind of marriage I want. This kind of thing is exactly why I refuse to engage anymore. With the best will in the world, I end up snarled up in something I don't understand and a serious breakdown in communication and good will. But I can't see myself staying with this forever.

To finish off that incident, later in the day I went into H's workroom (knocked first) and said "I'm sorry about this morning. When I got to the dump I found out there were TWO CD players in the car." I waited. "Oh," was all H said. "I was confused because I thought there was only one CD player in the car and I had thought you wanted that one thrown away. I didn't realize that you were talking about the car stereo. When I was trying to talk to you, I was only trying to clarify what you wanted because I was confused by what you were saying." H didn't reply. So I left it at that. Maybe I should have asked him directly whether he knew there were 2 CD players in the car, but I thought he would take that as confrontational and interrogating, and I didn't think he would respond well. Maybe I shouldn't have apologized to him, but I feel it is important to me that I try to make the space for reconciliation and he can respond as he wishes. In this case he didn't apologize for himself, or explain himself or make any further comment on the matter. He accepted what I said and did not offer any further comment or response. For me, it is important to me that I make the effort so that I remain a person who is able to try to communicate.

On another note, these last two weeks, I have been "being there" for my friend who had a breakdown two years ago and has now been diagnosed as bipolar. Thankfully she has stabilized. Last week, my H came home from a funeral and said he had met a couple, the wife suffering from bad Post Natal Depression. He had taken their phone number and he urged me to call the wife, as he said we had a lot in common and he thought it might be helpful for her to talk to me. I said to my H that what I would say to her was that PND was a finite condition but needs careful management, and that I would put her in touch with the PND Association, which was what was most helpful to me. I went ahead and called this lady, who had a long chat with me. I hope I was helpful to her.

But to me this is noteworthy because I think my H MUST feel that I am mentally healthy enough to offer support to this lady, someone I don't even know. He also notes how I support my best friend, who has been quite seriously ill. So how come I am mentally healthy enough, in his eyes, to offer support to these people, but when it comes to relating to HIM, I am nuts?

I think the fact that I am "talking" again means I am ready for IC. But I don't want my IC to be a litany week after week of the crazy-making incidents...

Sometimes, with my H, I feel like I am dealing with two different people.

Thanks for listening.

LIR

I only have a minute - and I wanted to say hi.

Hi !!

Your H sounds so much like me. For sure I will comment. You sound a lot like my W.

Must go, see you later. I hope your day is a good one.

Lets see....... It would probably be noon or thereabouts for you. I hope the rest of the day is good.

SS

So glad you're still there. I was afraid you'd be annoyed that I didn't come back to check for awhile. I don't want you to think that you're wasting your time.

My next step is to call the counselling center. It's a Christian counselling center - where I went in 2002. I found out that the psychiatrist friend I mentioned is on the board of trustees there. I think if she is involved, it must be good, so I think I will give them a second chance.

We just had a kind of flash electrical storm here about an hour ago - HUGE bolts of lightning, lots of thunder, massive downpour, lashings of wind and finally, hail. It took about an hour to approach, then move over and away. When we went out the front to watch it retreating, we found the streets filling with water, the man-hole covers had jets of water spouting out - the drains were overwhelmed. They went down after about 20 minutes....so no houses were flooded in our neighborhood. But we are supposed to get another intense bout of rain between 4-7am...there are no flood warnings out for our area - but I have stuffed towels under the doors just in case.....

I did have a good day (other than YS opening a can of red model paint in the car and getting it on the back seat upholstery - sheesh! tear my hair out sometimes - carpet cleaner got it all off - lucky for him!) - went to church, then home - YS went round to a friend's for the afternoon, OS dragged me out to the squash court to "play" - H has been teaching him to play, trying to get him more physically active...I am not in good shape so felt like melting into a puddle after 10 minutes, but it was good for me and I managed half an hour....tomorrow I'm going swimming again with my friend, who is dragging me out to the swimming pool....then OS made dinner - he decided what he wanted to make and I got him all the ingredients...I served as washer-upper and general guide, while he did all the work. LOL! Tasted good!

Thank you for listening. I'm interested in what you might have to say about the "CD player" incident. That incident illustrates just why I try to stay away from my H. I know that there may be ways I could communicate better, but there is such a history of aggression there that I get scared and angry. He and I get along fine as long as we stay out of each other's way....

LIR

So glad you're still there. I was afraid you'd be annoyed that I didn't come back to check for awhile. I don't want you to think that you're wasting your time.

Oh yeah? <big grin>
Well, I've often wondered if you would get tired of waiting for me to do a decent, well thought out reply, and that YOU might not come back.

I guess now we are even <another great big grin>

I hope to do a decent reply tomorrow. I hate to say I'll do it, and then not do it. It causes me to feel guilty when I don't follow through. Sometimes it's easier to not say anything. (Now I'm laughing)

I worry if I come by two or three times and say something like "I'll get around to talking to you soon" that you will think I don't care. Ah - the joys of communicating on the net.


He and I get along fine as long as we stay out of each other's way....

SS shakes head, and laughs.
Yes, I can see that. Except.......... you are married, and you crave affection, conversation, and closeness. One heck of a way to live married life.

Ok, I'll be back.
Really - I promise.

SS

I did have a good day (other than YS opening a can of red model paint in the car and getting it on the back seat upholstery - sheesh! tear my hair out sometimes - carpet cleaner got it all off - lucky for him!)

I had to comment.

It's difficult to understand boys. Thanks for not killing him out of hand. My mom let me live too - and I am thankful. Some days my W is thankful too.

Now why couldn't he have waited until he was in a nice work space, with news paper spread out to catch any spills?

Answer -

He could have, he just didn't want to.
That's how boys are. I know from personal experience.

I had to get that out - SS laughs some more.

How much do you want?

This week is girls camp for my W and daughters. It just so happens that I get to go to part of it and do part of the teaching.

The bad part is that I don't get to sleep with my W :-(

She sleeps with the other adult ladies, and I sleep with the other men who are on staff to help with teaching.

Oh well, at least I don't have to stay home by myself.

My W leaves Wed morning early with the twins, and I leave Thursday. She just left to go home and do more packing. She is in charge of the food and cooking for our group. She wasn't able to do as much as she wanted last night because the power was out due to a brush fire under the main transmission line. She was going to do some of the shopping for food, but the stores were closed because of the power outage.

I told her what you have been going through, and asked for comments, and she just said she is glad she doesn't have to walk in your shoes, because she doesn't know if she could be strong enough. That was all she had time for this week.

I have been checked for Helicobacter pylori. Interestingly enough, I had read an article on it, and asked my doctor to do the test. (You had asked above.)
It turns out that my ulcers were mostly from stress. The doctor told me "You can change how you cope, or you can die."
I changed how I cope, and I have not had problems for nearly 10 years now. It means I don't drive myself so hard, and some things don't get done, but I am healthy now.

Now, where to start?

I know there is too much info above for me to comment at length about everything, so I'll use the shotgun approach. I'll just start typing, and see if I hit anything important.

Well, all of it is important - Hmmm, I should start over?

Probably not, it's always hard to begin.

It is late evening for you now, if I hurry, You can read it before you sleep.

Sometimes I get in these talkative moods, I'll see if I can settle down, and do something useful.

Reading back, I see that there has not been a great deal of progress for you over the last few years. (You meaning the two of you in your marriage.)

Do you feel you are making personal progress, or is lack of progress one of the reasons why you are seeking counseling?

In reading down through these recent posts, I find I want to comment on everything, but I can't. (and I said that already, didn't I?)

However, there are some I will comment on.
And my last thought is that it is possible that my H has something organically wrong with him.

It is a real possibility. I would imagine even if there were, and you could identify it, he would still have to agree to do something about it. I think when we have the struggles that you have had, we almost wish we could find something like that. It makes it so much easier to stay when we know it's not their fault. It is more difficult to stay when they choose to behave as they do. I often wonder how we can know for sure.

I have been reading more - and I skip around a bit.

I can't imagine how it must have been to go through the ordeal with the school and then find that your H was in another EA. Men seen to be more distant from problems with their children, and we sometimes may even seem not to care. I know my W sees many things differently than I do (speaking of raising children) and some things that I don't worry much about keep her awake nights thinking about them. So, there is sometimes this natural difference to cope with, but them to find out he was investing time and energy into a relationship with another women must have been especially painful. If he was making a huge effort to repair the damage, perhaps it could mend, but it looks like he is not.

Here's a double quote -




I would like to hear your doubts, and questions. Perhaps you won't want to talk about these thing here.

This is one of the reasons I stick around on MB. I know God is real. My knowledge is practical, not theoretical. I know because I have gotten help, and felt his love. When we know that God is really there, and that he helps directly when it is best that he do so. When we know that he watches over us, takes care of us, and that our struggles are not in vain. When we know that no matter what we go through, we can still have success..... it is easier to keep going.

You can still have success.

I am not going to say I have no regrets. I have a lot of regrets and I am trying to learn to live with that....

I think we all have regrets of one kind or another. This is what the atonement of Christ is all about. He takes our good faith effort (that we start to make after our mistakes,) and makes things right. I do not understand how he can, but I know that he does.
"With his stripes we are healed."

Can you feel that? I hope you can.

BTW, how is this pain in your side? Does it come and go, or is it always with you?

For a while I had a problem with my leg. It would start to shake for no reason - and it HURT like someone was sticking me with a million needles all at once. If I could stand and walk, it would go away much faster, but if I was sitting (in a car) and had to remain sitting, it was terrible. It gradually went away, and I have not had the experience for ........ probably two years or more.

We never knew what caused it, where it came from, or why it left me. It's just good that it is gone now.

I suppose I am telling you so that you may have hope that your pain is not permanent. It would be wonderful if you could find relief from this - so as to be able to better concentrate on the other things that need your attention.

Read what you said about telling your boys about what had happened with your H. So glad they know now. What a relief.

A relief for me - but probably more so for you. Once they know, a lot of other things start to make more sense to them. Lots of questions that were in the back of their minds have been answered. (Why is my Mum angry with Dad?)

They have the pieces to the puzzle now, and it is easier for them to see the big picture.

It's getting later and later for you, and you don't know I am writing this. Maybe I'll post what I have, and write more later.

SS

My goodness - your husband reminds me of my ex. It seems like it is just a male/female thing. Your best bet would have been not to question him, just save the CD player. Then next time something needs to go to the dump, suggest that he go.

My ex had an annoying habit of not taking my car in to be fixed. And he knew all about cars. Then, whatever I decided to do, he would be angry. If the mechanic suggested the belts be changed, and I got them changed, my ex would let me know that I had been "taken". If the mechanic suggested the belts be changed and I didn't have them changed, then my ex would want to know why not. It got to where I dreaded taking the car in.

But I think it is mostly a male/female thing. But let's keep watching your husband and see if it keeps happening, and if there is some way you can escape harsh disagreements.

Hi there -

I've got a few minutes here (just a few while the boys and H are out of the house having some "Dad" time) so I'm also going to take the "shotgun" approach - sometimes my brain works better that way - (does that mean my brains are shot?)-)

Thank you for coming back - I know you are very busy. Please don't think that I think you don't care enough to post a long post. I appreciate your long posts because I know you pray for insight into a particular person's problem, but I also appreciate your short posts - it just helps to know someone is rooting for you....

Thank you, too - Believer - I'm going to answer your post, too, separately, probably later tonight when I'm alone and have more time....

First off, it didn't flood....but apparently Friday is going to be REALLY bad all over the UK - we are not in the flood-hit areas, but that doesn't mean it couldn't also happen to us - there is a river running through our town and our drains overloaded really quickly the other night....I called and made a complaint to the local county Highway authority...they are supposed to come out and clear the drains but I expect they are very busy....

I hope I was reasonable with YS over the red paint....he did it in the new car, which is in pristine condition....I was extremely upset...actually I was dead scared and it was an instance where I was really scared of what H would do if he had to find out...both to YS and to me...the worst H ever got mad at me for was over damage to the car...anyway, it was upsetting, but I realized I had to deal with YS fairly and not dump my fear of H onto him. I took the paint away from him and threw it away. I told him he owed me the money for the paint. I then told him I was extremely disappointed in him and we would talk about it when we got home. I bought carpet cleaner at the supermarket and when we got home, I cleaned off the paint...it took some time, but it came off completely. Afterwards, I sat YS down and asked him what he had learned from this experience. He said he had learned not to take the lid off a paint can in the car. I said "and anywhere near upholstery..." - "what's upholstery?" "...well you know, sofas and things like that" - I said he had learned a good practical lesson, but there was more I wanted him to think about. He tried to come up with a "right answer", and I said he should think down inside himself about what he felt, not try to find the answer he thought I wanted to hear. His eyes got tearful and I said I knew he was sorry for what he had done and that he hadn't meant to cause any damage. But I said he needed to think more about what he was doing, because it bothered me that he didn't think about these things, and at almost 12, he was old enough, and he really needed to start thinking about things as much for his own safety as for others. I said he had a responsibility to me and to his dad to take care of things that belonged to us. It was not that our things were more important than him, but that things that cost us money and that were part of our life were expensive to replace and repair, and he had a responsiblity to us to make an effort in that respect. He nodded a lot, with tearful eyes. Then we hugged and I said we would leave it at that and I wouldn't tell his dad.

On the ulcer thing - I'm glad you don't have helicobacter pylori - I'm interested in how you changed to cope with stress. How do you cope with stress? You get a lot done...how do you manage this?


I think that hits the mark...it would be so much easier to stay if I knew it wasn't his fault - that he had some kind of a diagnosis....it is extremely difficult not to feel resentment when you think he is just choosing to behave as he does...and I really don't know for sure....

My conversation with my psychiatrist friend helped me put this into perspective....I think I have hung on to the prospect of counselling in the hopes that it would produce a recognizable diagnosis for him, and THEN I imagined he would have to recognize himself and do something about it - he seemed so close to this in 2002 - but he backed away from that and that may be WHY he absolutely refuses to go into analysis or any form of counselling - because he thinks it might be true that there is something wrong with him and he doesn't want to face it..it's too stressful for him to address that....so he's really trying hard just to hang on to what he has and function as best he can...he has pretty much told me this in brief snippets of strained conversation over this past year....in 2002 when he was stressed and yelling at me (on various occasions) he yelled that he "didn't have a personality disorder" - that "THIS was the problem" - yelling and pointing at his chest - and that he "wasn't allowed to feel"....I was very concerned that he would have a breakdown....now, WS by their nature are very duplicitous, and some carry out acts they wouldn't normally do, but there are some who are genuinely troubled...for whatever reason...I've seen people "crack up" and no, they don't always recover to their old selves...they can become schizoid and their stress hormones can permanently unbalance them....I didn't want this to happen to my H, so I "cooled" the pressure on him to go to counselling in 2003...probably with the result that he had a 3rd EA in 2005, which became a PA. It's hard to know really what happened, but my instinct tells me that that was better than him having a breakdown from which he might never recover.

I guess I have arrived at the point where I have given up all hope that he will seek or accept counselling, so I have decided to work on my own healing and at the moment, I'm trying to set up some counselling for myself....I might just be stupid, but there is only so much I can handle at a time, and I haven't felt up to it until lately....

The school thing was horribly stressful and finding out he was having another EA while we were trying to protect our kids and fighting against some extremely powerful people and institutions was too much for me to cope with...I don't think his EA was physical when I found out about it....I think I pushed him into it becoming a PA because I turned on him when I found out...so in a way, I am partly responsible for it turning PA. I told him "you're a stranger to me now. You'll have to get whatever you need out of a woman from someone else from now on." And I have to admit that I still feel this loathing for him. It's just a gut feeling...he knew what we were up against, and I had also gone to bat for him against these people. He betrayed me after I had defended him. He was willing to leave our children where I felt it was unsafe and unhealthy. I now think that he succumbed to the OW pursuing him online at this time. He started out as rational as I was where the children's safety was concerned. But he changed at one point - he did all the WS stuff - became distant, lost interest in me, lost interest in our struggle for the children, started saying it would be better if they stayed there....I was going nuts with stress, the kids were going nuts, he wasn't seeing it....I now think he was "in love" with OW3 and didn't want to HAVE to think about them...in other words, his EA was impairing his thinking about his children's safety and he wanted them to stay in boarding school so he didn't have to think about them too much....so he could be free to carry on being Casanova on the side....well, I suspected this was going on in his head....and I persisted in following through with bringing the kids home....I don't regret it, even though our marriage is a total mess...but finding out my suspicions were true just destroyed my respect for him....its a gut feeling. I don't know if I can get over that.

I have to wrap this up now but will come back to do some more thinking later....-)

LIR

OK, I'm baack!-)

I do tend to ramble a lot before I get to the point - I guess what I am saying in the above post is that in 2002-03, I thought my H was a "normal" (normalish) WS - but when he got himself into IC, under pressure from me, he didn't "improve" - he got worse...I'd say he tried to get each of the two counselors he had on "his" side, as personal allies...and during that process, I became "the enemy"...before he went to counselling, he was aware that he was doing me wrong....after he went to counselling, he came up with reasons to justify his actions and he turned against me....this kind of fits with Stephen Stosny's picture of abusive spouses...and I guess what I'm trying to say is that I got scared that he would have a breakdown, so I backed off...when he quit, I let him quit and didn't push him again....I gave him space, stopped snooping, made no demands, and slowly, things stabilized....but I was always aware that so-called recovery was not according to MB principles, so I half-expected him to have another affair....

...then the school thing happened....then I found out he had allowed himself another EA, and that did my head in....I didn't handle it very well, I don't think...so I think he just gave up and went for the affair, and I gave up...but we stayed living together because our kids had been through so much and they really needed to be back in their own home with both parents, even if it wasn't all perfect....

I have tried to talk to him on numerous occasions, but...


IMO, he is not making any effort to repair the damage....he never has...and he doesn't seem the least bit interested in finding out how to do that....when I found out about the EA3, I gave him HNHN - he never even opened it...I've printed out MB stuff for him...he read one article...my BIL has tried to get him to read the Mars/Venus book by John Gray - no deal....I have tried other books....Love Languages, Trust Builders, Marriage Works....nothing....he flat out refuses to read anything...I have suggested friends (of his) that he talk to...no....I have suggested priests, counselors...no....not interested. I have told him his brother is worried about him and wants him to see a doctor. No. H has said consistently that he no longer loves me, so I take him at his word....H has his head very firmly stuck in the sand. I think he is living in great fear. I am aware that I am "letting" him live like this by not kicking him out, but like I have said before, I'm not 100% convinced that that is in the children's best interest right now....


I'll talk about it as best I can. I'm not averse to talking about it. Mostly, I feel like God is not there, although something in my heart tells me that isn't true. In fact, as I am sitting here meditating on the past, with regard to the school thing....how do I deal with what happened there and my part in what happened? Well, I know that during that time, I read the Scripture readings for the day every day, and I prayed every day....I decided that if I acted in accordance with the Gospel, then I had nothing to fear...I had to reflect on whether I had malice in my heart towards those people, and in everything, I had to decide whether my actions were charitable....I also was aware, am aware, that whatever I did or said I would have to answer for before God someday....if what I did damaged someone else, I'd have to be judged for what I did someday....so it came to me that I know I did this during that time, and I feel at peace with what happened. What happened turned out to be beneficial to all the children there, but what was best for my children was that they come home to be with me....so I have no regrets....

If only I could feel the same sense of peace over our marriage...but I don't ....I feel conflicted about it...that's why I need to go talk to this priest about certain things....

There is one effort which I think my H is making...he seems to be trying to be more accountable for himself....he calls in to tell me where he is and when he will be home....although sometimes his plans change....he still calls to say his plans have changed....

He is trying to be a good father, too....in that he is trying to spend "quality time" with both boys - especially trying to get OS active in sports, and picking up YS from school....before he was a WS, he was very involved with them....wanted to get home and spend time with them, attend their activities at school....when he was a WS, he spent his time on OW....now he seems more oriented towards them again, even if he is not interested in me....

The pain is odd - coming and going - since I exercised this week, it is bothering me again - maybe I have arthritis in my hip? I'm seeing the doctor again Friday....sounds like your leg problem was a nerve....getting old and frayed!!

Well, I hope you have a good time at the camp...

I came back to try to work up the courage to get counselling...that's still my goal....I'm reminding myself...-)

Thanks for listening...

LIR

- Continuing where we left off - (which is easy with the shotgun approach, you just start anywhere.)

Because of the situation at work, I haven't been able to call and make an appt with the priest...that's what I need to do...that's my first step...because there are theological issues I have to sort out with him about our marriage and about the issues of repentance and forgiveness....

This is really interesting to me, and I wanted to ask a lot of questions, but I got the feeling I should not ask them. I won't, but I will let this comment stand.

Then I think I need to find a different kind of counselor and start trying to deal with putting myself back together inside, regaining my confidence and trying to learn some the skills that I am lacking in...one of the doctors in my new surgery is a licensed psychotherapist. I might approach him, but I wanted to get my physical symptoms diagnosed first, because I didn't want them to think that the physical pains I have been experiencing are psychosomatic, or that I am attention-seeking.

I have always thought of you as having above average people skills, and above average problems solving skills. It was a surprise to read the above quote about putting your self back to together.

Having said that - I know you can still function, and outwardly you are probably doing well, but for you to have said this speaks volumes to me about what you are feeling inside.

Knowing what I know about you (and realizing there is a lot I do not know)............ I realize this must have affected you more than I first thought. You have been hurt badly.

When the hurt is on the outside, it is easy for us to see, and know that help is needed. When it is on the inside, it is more difficult to gauge the extent of the damage. I always though of you as a very confident person too. Now I am struggling with what questions to ask. Or if I should even ask them.

(Background info)
I have really enjoyed my exchanges with others on MB. As I converse, and learn about them, I learn a lot about myself. It helps me to maintain improvement in my relationship with my W, and it helps with my self improvement. I tend to ask a lot of questions, but they can get personal in nature. That's why I said I don't know if I should ask more about your statement on confidence, and putting your life back together.

(Back to your regularly scheduled post.)
Physical symptoms can be a sign of emotional trauma. Our bodies and spirits are connected, and the body will react to a spirit in pain. My ulcers were a sign of my channeling my emotional stress inward, and not finding ways to deal with it. I don't consider that to be psychosomatic - it's more of a cause and effect kind of thing. I wasn't thinking of this when I first brought up the ulcers, but I read your post over again, and this connection came to me. Or, I should say possible connection.
I really hesitate now......... I don't really know anything about this, other than what I have been through. (SS thinks some more.) Of course, it probably wouldn't hurt to keep talking about it, and exploring ideas.

Soldiers returning from the war often have physical problems that have roots in the experiences they have been through. I would guess between the school troubles, and the things your H has done, yours would be as traumatic. This is not in jest, I think it could be part of the trouble. Please comment though - I am just kind of thinking as I type. I hope this comes through the way I intend. I am not trying to paint you in a bad light.

The other place I thought about going to try to get counseling was the women's shelter, where I might be able to find counseling with someone who understands the experiences of women who have experienced abuse...I expect they are very busy and probably have a lot more women who are in much worse shape than me...I don't know if they would have any room on their schedules.

I have the name of someone local I can recommend. He counsels some members of our congregation, and seems to do a very good job. I had to refer someone to him last night.
Of course, the distance could be a problem. Will you be visiting us any time soon?
( Said in jest, but only half so.)

You seem to have a difficult time knowing how strongly to pursue counseling. Maybe that's not the best way to say that. You seem to waiver in your resolve - some days you want to, and other says you seem not so sure. I wish I knew what your major concern is. I can think of quite a few, but I don't have enough data to comment. Again, please don't think my comments are a judgment. I am saying this so you can examine your feelings and tell me what you see there. I don't know if you would have looked at that on your own. I realize part of it is finding the right person. Are there other things too?
Are you OK so with this so far?

If you were sitting here, I would probably give you time to process, and comment before going on. I would probe a little more to see if you needed more time to think, or if we could go on.

This is the internet, so I'll go on. You can read, or not, as needed.

(more background)
I read what JL said to you, and I read your reply.

Remember that JL is a scientist. He studies all the possible choices, and then goes with the best one. If other things need to be tried, he is trained to choose the one that has the highest chance of success.

Applied to marriage -
If it's not working, then change it.
If it hurts, and you can't change it, get away from it.
If you don't feel you can get away from it, live with it.
If you choose to live with it, that's YOUR choice, so don't complain about it.

I believe JL cares deeply about you, but he doesn't want you to be in pain, and what he posted is in line with his training. I hope you could see the concern in his post to you. I know he tries to get people to look at all the choices. Sometimes we are prone to say "I could never........" He is good at asking "Why not?"
These are my thoughts on it - I may be a long way off what his real intent was, but I don't think so.

End of background, back to regular post.

So its a tough call. Maybe I am in my midlife crisis now - I just turned 50 (arrrgh!) and I appear to be in menopause - yikes! - everything just quit with no warning last Sept.

I turn 52 this Sept. My W is two years behind me. You will be just fine if you stay focused on the most important things, and continue to follow God's advice. Part of my stress reduction - Reconcile with, and adjust to.......... things you can't change.

(I should have teased you about it, but I get in these serious moods. What can I say?)

Have you done your vacation yet?


I had a dream that I was riding a bicycle and felt the tire going flat - I pulled in for a pitstop and the mechanic showed me that I worn the tread away completely, in fact, I was riding on the rim - no tire left at all - could God, and you, be trying to tell me something???-)

Yes, and Yes. Lets upgrade you from the bike to a jet plane or something. Maybe a cruise ship. You don't have to cook or do dishes on a cruise ship.

I think I'll post this, and do more later.

SS

Hi believer -

Yeah, I thought it was a male/female thing, too, for a long time - I found the Mars/Venus books by John Gray a real eye-opener....one of the things I got from those was that I had to prepare my H for information or talks....so I do the "when you are ready, I need to talk to you about X" - and he is more receptive to dealing with practical problems if I approach him like that....

But we still have communication problems....

Here's an example from yesterday...

I come in from shopping in the afternoon and H and OS are relaxing around the table...they have mugs of tea on the table....I go into the kitchen with the groceries and start putting stuff away...I make myself a mug of tea...boil kettle, put teabag in mug, pour on boiling water, add milk, presto! H says, from the other room "there's tea in the pot there for you..." Now, there's a teapot on the kitchen counter. This teapot often sits there unused. H uses it from time to time. Tradition has it that when someone makes tea in a pot, and there is tea left in the pot, one puts a teacosy on it to keep the tea in the pot warm, and H uses the teacosy when he uses the pot. This teapot was not wearing a teacosy. It was not out of the ordinary to see it sitting there. But I assumed it was clean and not being used and that they had made their mugs of tea using the teabag in a mug method. So he calls out to me from the other room that there is "tea in the pot for you", like "you didn't have to make yourself a mug, I've already made some for you" - "Oh," I say "I didn't know". "Well, you didn't look, did you?!" (My hackles start to rise) I look in the teapot. The tea that was in there is all gone. There isn't any tea in the pot for me. "It's all gone," I say. "Oh, is it?" he says.

It's hard for me to know what to say here. It was one of those really small things that make you wonder what the game is....

I feel like I have tied myself in knots trying to learn "how to communicate" with him and it just doesn't work...it doesn't seem to make any difference.

Well, I gotta go lay my head on the pillow...school play tomorrow...

Take care, Believer - thanks very much for your comments - yes, your H does sound familiar to me....-)

LIR

We posted at nearly the same time. There is another above yours that you may not have seen.

SS