Pittman's book "Private Lies" in quoted from a lot on this forum. I also thought his book "Grow-Up" was excellent. I ran across another book by him, "Man Enough", subtitled Fathers, Sons, and the Search for Masculinity. I thought it was very interesting, esp. the following quote:<BR>"Men don't have affaris with women who are more perfect than their wives-perfect women don't mess around with married men anyway. A man who is feeling a bit of a failure at the moment is likely to seek out a woman he hasn't hurt yet, a damsel in distress to whom he seems a conquering hero. The issue is not that his wife doesn't understand him; the problem is that she does, and he wants the sanctuary of someone who still thinks he's wonderful."

Interesting idea. I think to a degree that is correct and that it was true with my husband and OW to a degree for sure.<P>Still it isn't addressing that his needs were not being met. That there was a reason for him to stray and need to be a conquering hero. I should have never or shall I say we should have never let "US" get so out of hand that he needed to be finding some other woman who thinks he is wonderful. So sad that I didn't continue to think he was wonderful like I did in the first place. I think he is wonderful now.<P>Hard lesson's are learned here. I don't ever want to forget this one or have to learn it again. By the grace of God I won't have to. <P>I also pray no one here has to repeat the lessons they learn. I think we have all had enough.<P>------------------<BR>God bless you and all of us.<P>Samantha<BR>

This was so true with my husband...sooo true!!!!<P>A 23 year old, previous affairs...a true Damsel in distress! You nailed it on the head, kinda makes me feel better! <P>------------------<BR>You will be stronger because of this.<P>

Samantha,<BR>I am not convinced that it is always a matter of needs not being met. A person could feel like a failure for a lot of reasons unrelated to the marriage, and in some cases no amount of support from the spouse would be enough.<BR>Not to mention that it is a bit unrealistic and probably not healthy to expect one's spouse to hide all signs of disappointment 100% of the time.<BR>Sally,<BR>Another quote from the book that made me feel a bit better -<BR>"He knows he's made a mess of his life, and he only feels safe around the new woman." My H actually said that he had messed up his life so badly he didn't think it could ever be fixed.<p>[This message has been edited by Nellie1 (edited October 08, 1999).]

Nellie1:<P>An interesting viewpoint, although it takes an entirely normal and, I might add, gender-neutral, emotional need and casts it in a negative, male-bashing light!<P>Who, male or female, DOESN'T want the "santuary of someone who still thinks he (or she) is wonderful"? Oh, if only that sanctuary were our spouse! But more likely, our spouse, who understands us so well, also knows our every shortcoming, our every flaw. In fact, they're so intimate with our flaws, they can't, or won't, see the quality of the whole.<P>But almost EVERYONE has a deep need to be accepted and loved, in spite of our flaws. We crave admiration as a flower craves the sun, even if we won't admit it to ourselves. ESPECIALLY when we are "feeling a bit of a failure" do we thirst after affirmation<P>I always thought that Dr. Ellen Kreidman was probably correct when she said that the person having an affair is not so much in love with the OP, as in love with the way the OP makes them feel about themselves.<BR>

Nellie,<P>I don't think it is always unmet needs either. I just know in my case it was a huge factor.<P>Don't misunderstand me...my needs weren't being met either. I just didn't choose to indulge myself in an affair. As a matter of fact I ran away from that option in a couple of cases. <P>I did however get very ill and go into the depts of depression.<P>All in all in was a two way street. Unfortunately my husband doesn't see it exactly that way much of the time.<P>Doesn't matter at this point who is right or who is wrong. What matters now is that we are both hurting badly and trying very hard to rebuild. We are doing pretty well and it is with the help of God and tons of hard work.<P>It's a long road going up hill. A huge struggle. These days though I think we are going to get there. I am a very blessed and lucky lady. <P>Doug,<P>I really like what the Dr. said and I think that is oh so true probably (at least in the beginning of the affair) and that it makes me feel a bit better. <P>That is also what Dr. Harley says makes people fall in love with one another if you think about it. We all like to be around people that makes us feel good. Natural reaction.<P>------------------<BR>God bless you and all of us.<P>Samantha<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Samantha-MI (edited October 08, 1999).]

I too think that they need affirmation and that is why my H strayed to OW. He told me that "She noticed the little things about me that were important to me" Those were his exact words. I can't tell you how sad it was for me to hear those words because for years I didn't notice those things about him and he truly is a wonderful man too. I guess it had to happen, just wish I could find a comfortable place in all of this. We keep trying, it seems some days it is not going to happen. I want to feel normal again and have a loving relationship with H. Oh well tomorrows another day to work on it.

Nellie1, I agree with what you said. At least the failure thing is what happened with my husband. He felt like a failure and everything was passing by. He found someone who was more of a failure then he was. So I guess she was able to make he feel less of a failure because compared to her he was. I think that is the missing need in our marriage. Being able to make him feel less of a failure then he felt. I could never convince him that in my eyes he was not a failure. I think that was because I had a good job and made more money then he did. I think that really bothered him. How do you deal with that? He just kept getting more depressed and not paying any attention to whatever I said. So he wasn't meeting my needs. She has the same job he has and makes less money then he does(she has been there as long). So they are equal in money. She has made a total mess of her life and was in need, He gave her advice. I on the other hand don't need him. I really know what he is like she doesn't know his moods, etc. He can then become someone else and escape the failure feelings. The need I couldn't meet was to help him understand that he wasn't a failure. Now I am rambling, but anyway I think the tow go hand in hand. The feeling of failure and the need to deal with the problem or escape it was unmet by our marriage. I'm not sure how to met that need and if no when we get back together that is the big problem we will have to work on.<P>------------------<BR>di<P>

I think I agree: My h had an affair with a 23 yo (he's 35) and this girl had a previous affair with a 52 y.o. Anyhow.. My H swears up and down a million times over that I have and always have met his needs.. That she doesnt have as much to offer as I do,?? Its hard for me to understand because if I had an affair, it would totally be because of unmet needs.. My H swears its all about him.. And what you write sounds like it may have hit the nail on the head...!!

Doug,<BR>I think there is more to this than just lack of affirmation. If someone feels like a failure, sometimes no amount of affirmation would be sufficient. Pittman says that often the man is seeking someone whom he hasn't hurt yet - the spouse is often a constant reminder of his failure in life, no matter how supportive the spouse is.<BR>cherub,<BR>Perhaps you are being too hard on yourself. Did your H notice all the little things about you, either, especially after you had been together for awhile?<BR>SDS,<BR>I don't think the feeling of failure is a problem of the marriage, it is a problem that belongs to the person. Unfortunately, it can and does affect the marriage. Pittman also said that infidelity is not an effort to solve a marital problem, it's an effort to protect himself from marital equality to someone he fears will see he's not the hero he wants her to think he is."<P>mickey,<BR>Around the time my H's affair began, I asked him if something was wrong. At that time, he said that it was not me, it was him. Unfortunately, as the affair progressed, he began to blame everything on me, perhaps with some encouragement from the OW.<P>Pittman believes that "the roots of infidelity are in the defective relationship between a man and his father, not a defective marriage." He talks a lot about men who are afraid of being inadequate, who have "a great longing for the love and approval of a father". He says that one of the characteristics of such men is that they "cannot tolerate female anger." So much of what he says sounds so much like my H. My H has always thought (correctly, I believe) that his father favors his older brother, who never married and has lived with his parents in recent years. He was deeply hurt when his father basically told him he was an idiot for giving up his job to go into business for himself.

Nellie 1,I agree I don't think the feeling of failure was a problem of the marriage. It was his problem mid life crisis. But it caused a big problem- his affair and his giving up on our marriage. Now my job is to convince he is not a failure even now. Too bad there isn't a book that tell how to do that. <P>------------------<BR>di<P>

di,<BR>But how can their spouse make them not feel like a failure, when one of the things they have failed is their family. My H said that he couldn't separate his unhappiness with me from his unhappiness with our financial situation. I thought he meant that he held me responsible for our lack of money because I didn't go back to work after the birth of our sixth child, although I didn't have any way of knowing he wanted me to. That may have been part of it, put perhaps some of it is that he can't disassociate his feelings of failure (his decision to go into business for himself left us in a much worse financial position) from his feelings about me. I suspect his OW has encouraged him to blame me for our financial problems, as if he actually needed encouragement. She has plenty of money, but even so is probably not nearly as well off as she was before her divorce.

I've read both Pittman books too and I agree with most of what he says. It makes me sad because I did try to tell my husband how wonderful he was. 4 weeks ago before he moved out I told him he looked hot one day in his bicycle shorts. He just ignored me. He wouldn't receive it from me, no matter what. I think it has to do with what a lot of the first posts were saying. He knows I know him well and he knows I know the way he is and the way he treated me. It is too difficult for him to believe that I love him in spite of it all. I see and remember mostly the good he sees and remembers mostly the bad which is interesting since I've treated him pretty well and been supportive but he has not. I think it also has to do with the amount of investment he was willing to put into the relationship. If you don't invest you don't have as much vested interest. For me it seems that it didn't matter what I did he just wouldn't receive it. Sometimes nothing is enough. It makes me sad but I have to accept it for now.