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**snort** <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I haven't seen many BS skipping that step...in fact I see many BS that have stayed that skip that step all together(many appear to remain out of fear and weakness instead of recovery and strength). I agree with Lem who earlier said that the most dysfunctional people he sees here are those that claim to be in recovered M's (note that means some of the people in recovered M's... not all!).
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More Harley wisdom to come .... be back later <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
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Sure medc, you are right, there are certainly a few that stay from fear and weakness.
But how does encouraging a divorce help them with that lack of self esteem, lack of self respect, fear of being nothing...
All you get is an exspouse with the same issues, divorced, sure, but doomed to repeat the same abuse patterns with someone else....
I believe that if you help a BS reach some personal growth and understanding ....then the right decision will present it self...it does not have to be forced.
~ Pain is a given, misery is optional ~
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A BS does not need to stay in a bad marriage to grow. Much growth...even more in my opinion can occur absent the onslaught that a WS brings to a relationship.
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I didn't say they NEED to stay in a marriage to grow.
However...pain is the most common catalyst of change.
I am not promoting the idea that we should encourage a BS to suffer.
I am saying that often for growth to happen we have to EXPERIENCE life. Avoidance of pain is not always good.
I can tell you from personal experience that if I had followed the urging of people who wanted to see me out of pain, I would not be the incredibly strong person I am today.
Let me point out, that rather than spend time reflecting on self - divorce is seen as a green light to find another distraction...
Thats why I looooooooooooooooooove plan B.
No WS. No significiant others.
Just self having to look at and deal with self.
~ Pain is a given, misery is optional ~
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The answer to almost every crisis: Follow your heart! Trust your feelings! but whoso walketh wisely, he shall be delivered. Proverbs 28:26 LOL!
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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It just occured to me....
alcoholics are emotionally stunted, I've read theories that they remain developmentally stunted at the age where they started drinking....
I believe it.
They drink to avoid pain.
Because they avoid pain...they do not learn to cope...
They remain stuck and drunk...
~ Pain is a given, misery is optional ~
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Mel thats perfect - lol !
~ Pain is a given, misery is optional ~
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It just occured to me....
alcoholics are emotionally stunted, I've read theories that they remain developmentally stunted at the age where they started drinking....
I believe it.
They drink to avoid pain.
Because they avoid pain...they do not learn to cope...
They remain stuck and drunk... This is very true. Many AA clubs are like being around high schoolers. It is just amazing. You will often see a great deal of emotionalism and sentimentalism that one usually would only see with high school girls. Alcoholics drink to escape LIFE, btw.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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BR... I believe you when you talk of your strength... but it is something I must take on faith and not your situation. I understand your need for privacy with some things though.
Divorce is not always the green light for another distraction... sometimes it is just simply dumping the junk out of your life...and if there is growth and healing to be done... it can be accomplished more effectively absent the dead weight.
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This is very true. Many AA clubs are like being around high schoolers. It is just amazing. You will often see a great deal of emotionalism and sentimentalism that one usually would only see with high school girls. Alcoholics drink to escape LIFE, btw YES. And one of the worst traits of the co-dependent is the urge to help the alcoholic avoid life. Protect the alcoholic from pain at all cost... So my convoluted point is medc....that I don't believe we should rush to stem the pain and help the BS avoid the life lesson that is available to them... A BS must earn the right to walk away. The BS made vows too....those vows are not negated because the WS cheated. Self respect and self esteem are gained by doing what is RIGHT, not what is easy.
~ Pain is a given, misery is optional ~
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sorry, I am bowing out of the AA talk.
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BR... I believe you when you talk of your strength... but it is something I must take on faith and not your situation. Don't misunderstand me, I do not believe I am strong because I stay in my marriage. That is not it at all. Dead weight...who is to judge that? Even dead weight can provide great strength training! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> All I am saying is that the BS to has to reach the point where he or she is ready to take that step. The WS as far as I am concerned is nothing more than a mere annoying gnat. Everyone has to go through anger, grief, acceptance...letting go....THEN a person is ready to move on...not before...it has nothing to do at all with the WS. If someone is stuck in grief, then getting a divorce doesn't serve to suddenly jolt someone to the next stage. They'll get there when they are ready, and for some it is a quick journey and others take longer....(I was a stubborn old broad that took a looooooooooooooooooooong time to learn)
~ Pain is a given, misery is optional ~
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Dead weight...who is to judge that? The BS.. And one thing you said is so way off base as far as I am concerned... A BS has to earn their way out of the marriage. I don't think so BR! The WS gave them a free pass.
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ quoting Dr Harley
"Have you ever heard someone say, 'You can't please everyone'? It seems that today most people believe that you can't really please anyone but yourself. Well... You [i]can't please everyone. But I don't think I believe that it follows that you can only please yourself. If you can't please everyone, please who you can please. The pendulum doesn't need 2 swing all the way 2 selfishness. Thay argue that true happiness comes from within, not from other people, and that each person should be responsible for his own happiness. I would counter that this really isn't all that different from what Schnarch suggests with his "differentiation". We need 2 be healthy individuals before we can build healthy marriages. If our own happiness is dependent on the actions or behavior of others, we set ourselves up for some serious falls - like becoming a BS, for example. This belief came into its own during the 1960s and '70s when we all were encouraged to take better care of ourselves and let each other take care of themselves. Whenever I hear that point of view, I cringe because I know where it leads -- to unapologetic selfish behavior. And in marriage, that kind of behavior generally leads to divorce.
Deep down we all know that we can make others happy -- we've all done it. And we can also make others miserable if we're not careful. [/i]" My favorite line from a song by the Moody Blues applies here: "Do what makes you happy, do what you know is right." Not just what you think is right, but 2 the best of your abilities 2 make the determination - what you KNOW is right. That takes a willing acceptance of responsibility. You can't be responsible and selfish at the same time. That's all I have 2 say. -ol' 2long
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Schnarch was not describing differentiating for the purpose of seeking personal happiness ... but as a necessary expression of personal integrity ... more akin to "radical honesty"
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Hey medc ~ Dead weight...who is to judge that? The BS.. And one thing you said is so way off base as far as I am concerned... A BS has to earn their way out of the marriage. I don't think so BR! The WS gave them a free pass. Aaaah MEDC...on your first point I agree....which is why I almost always object when people urge a BS to dump the bum before the he or she is ready. The BS has to decide that their spouse is a deadweight for themselves. Forcing our own judgements and superior knowledge of what is "right" for someone else will not result in a good outcome, even if the WS really is a no good loser. I disagree about the WS giving the BS a free pass. The WS does not have that power. Do some people believe that scripture says that the BS can dump the bum - sure. But that doesn't mean anything but leave the door open for the BS. The BS still has to CHOOSE to walk through that door. Making that choice before one is ready can do more harm than good and won't result in better choices for the future. There is a grieving, detaching, growing process we all need to go through. We need to understand ourselves in the old relationship so we can move into a future that does not repeat those mistakes. You can force a BS to walk through the door, but what good does it do if that BS left his mind heart and soul behind? At the end of the day, the choice has to come from the BS...freely...because that person is ready - finishsed grieving, finished fighting with God and the universe, ready to accept what IS instead of what was imagined. The WS has NOTHING to do with this process!
~ Pain is a given, misery is optional ~
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<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> threadjackers ... stop!
I am discussing a book here
Defending Traditional Marriage
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[color:"red"]~~Harley's test for marital disrespect~~[/color] [color:"blue"] When we're being disrespectful, we often fail to recognize it ourselves. [/color] <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> whooooo ? meeeeeeeee? Noooooooooooo <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> [color:"blue"] We think we're being helpful when we're actually being hurtful. And all we feel is our own self-righteous belief that we're doing the right thing. [/color] <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> can Dr harley see into my home??? [color:"blue"]So how can you know if you're a perpetrator of disrespectful judgements? The simplest way to find out is to ask your spouse. You can't feel the effect of your disrespect, but he or she can. [/color] <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> expose myself to criticism .... oooookkkkkkkkaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyy I'LL DO IT ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> [color:"blue"] If your spouse identifies you as someone who makes disrespectful judgements, you may be tempted to make yet another disrespectful judgement and claim that he or she is wrong ! [/color] <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> Dr Harley knows me too well <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> [color:"blue"] Resist that temptation at all costs because in every case of abuse, the victim is a far better judge of it's existence than the perpetrator. [/color] <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> I'm resisting as fast as I can !!! [color:"blue"]Take his or her word for it, and start working on a plan to eliminate disrespect. [/color] I was planning on starting with duct tape across my mouth <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> eliminate DJs and unwanted upper lip hair at the same time <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
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