Indeed we have. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />



I didn't "imply" it, I said it right out. LOL



This I didn't say.

I said at the completion of the Bible.

~ Marsh

medc,

For me the answer lies in the fact that only God knows for sure, I'm not Him and so I don't. Some day when I see Jesus face to face, I might remember to ask Him, if it still matters at the time.

I don't think miracles ceased with the close of the cannon of scripture. I have witnessed what I would call miracles and know others who have also witnessed the same.

I think the claims that the bible promises that all will be healed of every malady is false. I also think that the idea of not being healed because we don't believe it enough is false. I think that concept has more to do with altering reality by our beliefs than it has to do with scripture.

I don't think my faith is the deciding factor. I think that decision is totally God's, and since I am not Him, I cannot explain His reasons.

IMO we are dealing with three issues. It isn't that God CAN'T restore a limb or even that He WON'T restore a limb, just that for this person He HASN'T restored a limb...at least not yet.

Mark

MLHB... scripture clearly says the believer shall be given what he asks for. So, a person that has faith does not need it proven to him...he has it... so why not have his limb restored.

How about all of us tonight pray that world hunger be conquered so that no more children die tomorrow. We are all Chritian here on this thread, at least I think so (forgive me for the assumption). Will our prayers be answered tomorrow??? I will pray with all sincerity believing that in the Lord all things are possible... but for right now, to give the mystical answer about we will know when we are before him... don't we have the playbook already???? Doesn't the Bible clearly say that prayer will be answered??? Ask and you will receive???
I have prayed for world hunger... knowing the Lord can change that...yet it lingers... that is NOT what Scripture teaches me. I just do not understand.

MEDC ~ because I am a reformed control freak...well maybe not so reformed...one thing that I learned to do is not to ask God for specific outcomes. I have a bad habit of handing God my blueprint plans for not only my life but everyone elses and demanding that he fix things how I decree as Good and Just. Because I try to remember that God has a bigger imagination than I do, I often pray for the willingness to accept His Will.

I think the worst night for me, was the night that my sister died. We recieved phone calls that she had fallen, that she was alive, but that her life was hanging by a thread.

I remember my sister and I crying and praying together on the phone...she in Dallas, me in New Jersey...

I remember struggling so hard, because I wanted to beg God for her life...for MY PLAN for what was right...

Instead, I had to let go and say, Please God, do what is right for HER...with no outcome specified.

I think that the answer is often no...for reasons we can't comprehend.

There are many life lessons learned from suffering...hardship...from struggling with obstacles, challenges, frustrations...

We grow as human beings through adversity...

I do not believe miracles ended with the bible.

I do not believe in coincidences. I believe that God has a sense of humour, and God has a much better imagination than I do.

I do believe that God created the world - through evolution or creationism...it doesn't matter. I believe that however it happened that God is the creator of all things.

That means, the sciences are simply the study of God's Creation. So when a drug is developed through scientific research that can cure a cancer...isn't that a miracle?

God as Creator, has the rule book. We are still figuring it out. So a "miracle" today may be a basic scientific fact tomorrow.

but i do believe scripture says that prayers will be answered in HIS time and according to HIS will.

i'll have to look up where things like this are said but i know they are. many times even in church during our wednesday night prayer group we even pray that way "we ask these things in jesus name, that these prayers will be answered in YOUR time and according to YOUR will. Help us to be patient while we wait for this"

i believe sometimes it can take many many years even for a prayer to be answsered because it gets answered in his time and according to his will.

i guess that is what i am trying to say.

mlhb

I am 44 years old. I have belonged to the Catholic and now a very large non denom Christian Church... not ONE person I know (and my church now is 15K strong) knows anyone... not a single one that has been restored. So, it is not just for this person... it is NO LIMB has been replaced. Now science, the very science that destroys life threatens to play God by growing new hearts and limbs in the lab...

Is there anything unclear about Matthew 21:21-22??


21Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. 22If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."

BR... I understand what you are saying... but please examine your answer in the context of the versus I have quoted. Scripture is quite clear here.

another thought....

my children, that I love with every breath in my body...often beg me for things that they, in their limited wisdom and maturity, think would make their lives better.

My daughter thinks that dinner would be much improved if I replaced those yucky green beans with icecream.

She will ask me every night for ice cream instead of green beans.

But I am her mother.

I could say yes to her request....and make her satisfied at getting her will. "Mom is GREAT" she'd proclaim...

But I know that she needs greenbeans, and not icecream.

What kind of a mother would I be if I gave her all that she asked for?

Hebrews 11 tells us that there are two kinds of faith.

... that which overcomes difficulties...

32And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:
33Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions.
34Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.
35Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

....and that which endures difficulties....

36And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
37They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
38(Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
39And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


~ Marsh

BR... that makes sense... but it does not apply here.
Why doesn't the Bible clearly say... if God agrees with the prayer it will be answered? No, the verse is VERY clear. I can see if what was being asked for was a sin... but a hand restored... hunger being cured is not sinful. This is troubling and the mystical answers show that there really is no answer to the discrepancy.

Marsh... I understand what you are saying... but let's return to the verse quoted... Is there anything unclear about it??? It is Jesus' own words here.

I have found several explanations about this... actually more than a few... but sveral from Christian sites and each and every explanation works from the premise that this verse is not to be taken literally...that in the context of the time... blah, blah, blah. Either Scripture is literal or it is not.... this picking and choosing stuff is for the birds.

I had posted before I saw the verse you quoted.

Did you notice who Jesus made that promise to?

18Now in the morning as he returned into the city, he hungered.

19And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.

20And when the disciples saw it, they marvelled, saying, How soon is the fig tree withered away!

21Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.

22And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

~ Marsh

the promise is for all believers... that logic would mean that everything in the Bible only applied to the people he spoke to. The words are very clear. And it is not the only place in Scripture that makes reference to this stuff. We are all disciples Marsh if we believe.

MEDC-

It would be easier for a blind man to pass through the eye of a needle than it would be for a camel to enter the kingdom of heaven. Or something like that. Anyway, I think that pretty much answers you question.

I was listening to my fave christian radio station this morning STAR 99.1, and they were reading letters from listners this morning and one woman wrote in and said they should stop playing the song "Anyway" by Martina McBride?, because of the line where it says "God is great, but sometimes life ain’t good
And when I pray
It doesn’t always turn out like I think it should
But I do it anyway,
Yeah I do it anyway"
I think that most people see GOD as a genie in a bottle (I've been guilty of this in the past) making deals with Him if you answer my prayers I will give up this and that vice.

My family and I prayer at our mother's bedside when she was dying of cancer and I just knew that GOD would save her and I was so angry and lost when she died, I even asked myself if I prayed hard enough, and who ever said that somethings happen to bring us closer to HIM, not sure how that works but it is true...

I think that we as Christians just have to trust HIM, as we are suppose to be in this world not of it.... I too wonder why my mom died, was her death suppose to be a wake up call to my sisters and I? I do not know but I do know that I want to see my mom again and to do that I have to get right with the lord.

May I suggest WHEN GOD DOESN'T MAKE SENSE by Dr. James Dobson

THE CASE FOR CHIRST, THE CASE FOR FAITH , BY Lee Stroble

No need to read those.. I have read most of Dobson(maybe evn that one) and hundreds of other books... that doesn't make this question go away. Trusting in HIM is also trusting in the WORD... right now I have some valid questions about the word that no one can seem to answer without actually dismissing the question or the versus cited.
I will continue to search for answers to this.

Stepping out of my comfort zone on this one .......AND Not intending to be a total complete answer for any .....but a few thoughts:


Part of the misconception is from this natural confusion many have on the issue.......yes, some Healings are miracles ......however, most healings are simply manifestations of faith.

So yes,
a Healings CAN be a miracle ......but NOT all healings ARE miracles. (I know, I know ....try to wrap your head around that for sure)

(Using the definition of Faith, as Acting on what a person Believes)


medc:
IMO You've already hit upon at least part of the answer.

One way to gain Healing,
is to use one's Faith.

(still using God's power ...true .....but WE are the Activator)
Because to be in faith (and for God to use it) ....we have to "do" our part.
Our faith (and level) is what permits us to Tap into God's power.

On the other hand,
for something like a complete restoration (of something that is gone),
well that is a miracle.

(God's power and will, acting independent of WHAT we do)
Basically NOT dependent on "where" we are spiritually.

As was said in the Bible:
"it is Your Faith that has made you well".

Indeed We are Promised that our faith can make us well.
But you have to have something to Heal, cure or make well.

In addition,
although God can (on his schedule) perform miracles ......we are NOT promised them.

With my limited understanding ........and limited ability to communicate on religious issues ........(also reluctance) ........
I see it kind of like this:

Say a person is going blind .....from a degenerative disease .......their Faith CAN Heal them .....as there is something to Heal (renew).

However,
if their eyes were Taken (gone/removed) & they are blind (say in an accident) ....then it would take a Miracle to restore them ....as they would have to essentially be RE-created.

As the created,
I'm not promised the ability to create as he did me.

(My apologizes if I don't have the scholarly knowledge of some OR the technical merit of others to always get tougher messages across).
Yikes, this is why I tend to shy away from these religious type threads.

God works in mysterious ways. Just because he doesn't give an amputee their leg back if they pray for it doesn't mean that he won't provide them with the opportunity to be fitted with a new experimental prosthetic that will drastically increase their quality of life. Jesus didn't perform huge miracles as spectacles to make everyone believe. He healed people in subtle ways that only true believers would recognize. If you pray and have faith, God will answer your prayers, but it may not be in the way you were expecting.

mystical answers do no answer what is clear in Scripture.