medc,

By extension of the same logic, if we are NOT healed, it is because we somehow do not have sufficient faith or there is something that we lack. But that makes it about what WE do and not what He does.

There is indeed something we are lacking and that is the true and eternal knowledge of God as to what is not what we want, but what He wants for us. The bottom line is that we simply do not understand the mind of God.

From the rest of scripture we know that Paul was not healed, though he was prevented from falling ill or dying when bitten by a snake. We also know that David prayed and fasted for the life of his son, and yet the child died.

So we cannot take a single verse and think that we know all there is to know about a subject. God promised David that his offspring would rule on his throne forever, yet it wasn't until Jesus' resurrection that it came to pass. No single verse can explain everything about what God intends as to meaning. If it could, the bible would be much shorter in length. Taking a single verse out of context (of the entirety of scripture) turns the text into a pretext. The best we can hope for is to shed out own enlightenment on it, and that is what we are clearly lacking, enlightenment.

The signs and wonders that Jesus and the apostles performed was for the unbelievers as sign of His authority over the natural world. It was not meant to be a reward for having faith. Miracles often occurred and the result was the recipient became a believer, not the other way around.


How many of us have not asked the question, "Why did this happen to me?" in regard to infidelity. But those who have been through it before, can now empathize with those who are going through it at this time and offer encouragement, advice and consolation to those in need BECAUSE they have experienced it themselves. Those who came here before us helped those who came along later and now we are, in our turn, attempting to help others.

It is only because we have BTDT that we can have offer any help at all. I did not seek this place out to improve a great marriage to the status of awesome. I came here because I was broken and without much in the way of hope. It is because of infidelity that I even have an opinion to offer on the subject. If it hadn't happened to me, I would never know how to help others, both here in cyberspace and IRL.

And FWIW, I do not personally know of anyone that knows anyone who walked on the moon, but it did happen. I know it happened only because it was reported, but my not knowing about it would not make it not so. To not know of something does not make it untrue.

Bottom line is still the same....

We are not God and do not know why...

Marsh,

All believers are disciples. Not all are apostles, but Jesus gave the command to go to all the world and make disciples, not converts.

losinit,

The quote you give is in reference to something those who heard it would have understood much differently than we might today. "The eye of a needle" was small door in the city gate so that people, and even camels, could pass when the gates were closed. To go through this small opening, a camel had to be devoid of baggage and under control of its master. It had to submit its own instinct to avoid entering a small opening and trust its master to not lead it into harm. It was not intended to say it was impossible, only that the condition of giving up everything and following the Master's leading makes it possible. A rich man tends to trust his own wealth rather than rely on God.

TR,

The object of faith is what matters. In this case faith, or trusting, in Jesus as Savior, Lord of all and able to do as He promised. It isn't the faith that is important, but in what or whom the faith is placed. Mind over matter is not a biblical concept. It doesn't work to save a marriage broken by adultery either, BTW.

Mark

sorry Mark, not one single person had enough faith?

I am not taking anything out of context.

Hi, MEDC.



I am no biblical scholar by any stretch of the imagination.

It seems to me that God does what God chooses to do, the old potter and the clay example.

I don't know that he doesn't restore limbs, eyes, or other parts. I don't know that he doesn't restore lives, relationships or fix broken cars under the right circumstances.

I don't think it is possible for men to comprehend the level of Godly intervention in our lives, if any.

Faith is the essence of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen. That seems self-explanitory to me.

I don't know if my faith is that of a mustard seed or not. I have little evidence that the stars exist, yet I see them on a clear night.

I know for sure that I do believe that God can do whatever he likes, and his actions are not subject to my approval.

I do the best I can with what I was born with, then I ask for God's help, then I continue to do the best I can with what I was born with. I leave it up to God to do what he wants.

Gimble

I am basing this on God's own word.

Christ prayed:

39. And He went a little beyond them, and fell on His face and prayed, saying, "My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will."

42. He went away again a second time and prayed, saying, "My Father, if this cannot pass away unless I drink it, Your will be done."

44. And He left them again, and went away and prayed a third time, saying the same thing once more.

The cup did not pass away.

No it didn't. I'm sure you have a point?

[color:"blue"]I'm not going to answer your question

instead.... I'm going to share

We really wanted kids
we tried and tried
we went through testing and inseminations
yada yada yada

we P R A Y E D for a pregnancy

it did not happen

instead ... while I was on jury duty, I saw a TV ad for local adoptions
I went home and asked H "Wanna do this?"

he said "sure"
so we applied (no small thing ... as you are aware)
we went through all the checks and double checks

we got "placed" with a toddler
our son came home with us
.... a few months later ... the social worker called ... asking if we want his sister (an infant)
we said "yes"

our prayers WERE answered
but not in the way we thought they "should be"

I guess what I want to say is

answered prayers are not like placing an order on a Chinese menu

one from column A
one from column B

answered prayers happen when what we pray for are part of a larger plan

sometimes the larger plan is not in our sight until years have passed
and we have grown in spirit
[/color]

If it is possible....

I see the point BK...

I still do not believe it addresses the matter at hand.
Skipping the amputee for a while... what about world hunger????

I will continue to return to Christ's own words in Matthew until someone can show me why that is faulty to do so. Either the Bible should be taken literally or it shouldn't.

MEDC

Quote:
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The cup did not pass away.


-----------------------------------------------------------


If Christ could pray that the cup would pass from Him and it didn't, then it would appear that the answer to the prayer was "no".

Thus, disproving the assertion that "the idea that God says no is not scriptural."

OK MEDC - but I think you are coming up to an incorrect premise. World Hunger. Yet world hunger is a direct result of mans sinfullness and the fall. Creation groaning for salvation. The world winding down. Man's sinfullness. God cannot go against his character can he. He cursed the earth. The universal laws of sowing and reaping.

Why do bad things happen to good people

Why is there evil in the world?

All a result of Mans fallen nature. I believe scripture should be taken literally unless there is a direct indication that it is poetry. So for instance I take Genesis literally.

I also know that Jesus left some towns unable to do many miracles because of lack of faith.

I also know in some parts of the world, where there is a high level of belief in things spiritual that miracles such as you describe DO occur even today.

I believe these things are being restored to churches in the western world as well. I do believe our lack of faith ties God's hands somewhat.

You cannot read just one verse of scripture. The whole of scripture paints a picture and is in harmony.

I'm sure I'm not helping...

And as for the red herring of what happened in the Garden, Jesus was asking if there was any other way that God's purpose (the redemption of Man) could be accomplished.

It ALWAYS WAS in Jesus's power to remove himself from the road to the cross. He could have aborted at any second. It was HIS decision.

But for the joy set before Him, he endured.

Hi, MEDC



I am personally very happy that very few people have such faith, otherwise, the world, if it still existed at all, would be in a terrible state from all those people of faith doing things that they shouldn't (due to their fallen nature) with their unlimited power.

I think Jesus had faith. There is that evidence thing again.

Just because you haven't observed a new limb grow or not, Thomas, doesn't mean that it has or has not happened, it simply means that you do not know.

Gimble

yes it does.... it would be world news

MEDC wrote: "yes it does.... it would be world news"

Really.

Seems like I read about claims of miracles all the time. Who verifies those as rumors or actual events? Who would believe them if true?

If a video crew caught someone growing a new arm, who would believe it? With current computer technology, that's an easy one to fake.

If you watched someone grow a new arm as you stood and prayed for them, who would believe you, the world media?

Gimble

I agree with Gimble.

21Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. 22If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."



Okay, well literally, Christ's own words set out some conditions:

1. if you have faith
2. and do not doubt
3. If you believe

Speaking literally, of course.

What about world hunger?

So much of world hunger is a direct result of corrupt governments and war. Shipments of food rot in the docks because someone's hand has not been greased. Shipments of food never make it to the people who need it because there is no infrastructure left in the country to carry it to them. Crops are destroyed when marauding troops or tribes come barrelling through. The food is there to feed the world, but we keep having humans interfering in destructive ways.

And here's a gentle reminder. It is very easy to wax long about global this and world that. God proposes a very simple *local* solution:

Is] this not the fast that I have chosen: To loose the bonds of wickedness, To undo the heavy burdens, To let the oppressed go free, And that you break every yoke?

7 [Is it] not to share your bread with the hungry, And that you bring to your house the poor who are cast out; When you see the naked, that you cover him, And not hide yourself from your own flesh? 8 Then your light shall break forth like the morning, Your healing shall spring forth speedily,

There's that healing thing again.

sorry Gimble...that doesn't fly with me.

Wow, this answer is going to be not popular: Because God does not break natural laws in a way that can be observed, reproduced and verified. There are lots of explanations "why" but in this case why does not matter.

Cancers observably, reproducibly and verifiably spontaneously go into remission sometimes.(Those who think that their religion is "right" will be interested to know that these remission rates do not vary by particular belief of the patient. If those rates, factoring for lifestyle, were better for say Baptists, then the Baptists might well have something to crow about.) Arms, on the other hand, do not spontaneously grow back.

You can draw the inferences you want from all that, but a practical one is this: If in response to an illness you are either going to go to the doctor or pray (but not both): I recommend the doctor. Strongly.

Sometimes I think my wife has it right. She's a deist. She believes God is there, but does not intervene and does not really care all that much.

MEDC wrote: "sorry Gimble...that doesn't fly with me."

Well, it does fly, you just don't like it. I can understand that. Lots of stuff I don't like too.

I think that what you are looking for on the faith issue is MEASURE.

God bless,
Gimble

not so.