That still doesn't negate the fact that He prayed for it to pass him by and that prayer was not answered with "yes". And it was not meant as a red herring, it was meant as a "how does what you're saying line up with this?"

Here is another example from Paul:

2 Corinthians Chapter 12

7...Therefore, that I might not become too elated, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, an angel of Satan, to beat me, to keep me from being too elated. 8 Three times I begged the Lord about this, that it might leave me,
9 but he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is made perfect in weakness." I will rather boast most gladly of my weaknesses, in order that the power of Christ may dwell with me.

I believe that's a long way of telling Paul, "no" to the prayer to remove the thorn in the flesh.

I don't understand why this is an issue?

2 Co 1:20 For no matter how many promises God has made, they are "Yes" in Christ. And so through him the "Amen" is spoken by us to the glory of God.

Matt 21:22 If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."

Jn 16:24 Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete.

This one is interesting...


This one likewise is interesting.

1. Amputated limbs: There was at least one completely amputated appendage that Jesus restored. Most of the lepers He healed also must have been missing at least fingers, toes, and noses.

I believe the very last days will see even greater miracles than these, some by the power of God and others by the power of Satan.

Talking about the Man of Sin, who would be revealed before the coming of Jesus:

Also read 1 Corinthians 12, where is listed, among the gifts of the Spirit that are given to believers, healing, and miracles. That promise is for us, not just part of it.

Why no limbs, or at least none that we know of? I don't know, but I truly believe that times are not far off when they will be healed, too, and even greater wonders shown than that.

2. Hunger: Famine is never God's will, and He will put a stop to it, soon. But to ask Him to stop it now, even with a full measure of faith, would be to ask Him to contradict Himself.


Read the whole chapter. It describes in a small way the state of the world before the fall of Jerusalem, and in a large way what the world will look like just before Jesus comes back.

In fact, the only remaining sign to be fulfilled is that the gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world. That is close to complete.

I don't think that means we should just throw up our hands and say "oh well, they're going to starve anyway", and not do anything. But we also must not lose faith when our prayers do not wipe out the famines that Jesus said would grow even more terrible just before He comes. We just need to continue helping all those we are able to help.


For all suffering humans, whether heartbroken like we all here have been, or starving to death, those who are tortured, raped, maimed, killed, those whose loved ones have died, for anyone who has ever been in any pain at all, these verses were written to give them hope:

people have thought end times were coming many many times. so far, no go.
i say, let's go.

His promise is not slack, He is just waiting as long as He possibly can to give us more time. He doesn't want us to die eternally.

I'm with you. It's time to get going. I want my baby back. I want the suffering to stop.



Even if we never bothered to get ready, there will come a time when God just has to say, "Enough. Ready or not, here I come."

But IRL it has been very exciting for me to see many people waking up to this recently. I have an awakening within myself, an urgency. I see it in others. People are getting excited in a way I have never seen.

There is definitely war in the flesh over this, but I find myself wanting to give up anything in my life that is holding back God's blessing, and Him pouring out His Spirit, as was promised would happen in the very last days.

I crave that far more than I want to retire with security and die an old lady. I want to go home. I'm not the only one.

God wants to bring about a revival in us. He wants to hurry up and get this done. More than any of us, He wants to halt this fiasco and usher in His reign of peace.


Amen!

I'm not a theologian. I'm just a normal sinner like everyone else, but I've also seen prayers answered - not in the ways I expected. I do believe that God answers all prayers, but sometimes the answers aren't necessarily what we want at that moment in time, but what is best in the bigger picture. His will.

When my (now X)H accepted work where we are now, we figured it would take a few months to sell the house and get us all moved down here. In actual fact it took two years. During those difficult two years, I asked a lot, "Why me? Why this?"

During the last several months of those 2 years, my stepfather was ill and confined to hospital, where he eventually passed away. His passing was peaceful, and my family and I had the time to say our goodbyes and spend as much time as we could with him. I was also there to give my Mother love and support. 4 days after my stepfather's memorial service, activity began on the house, and within 2 months of Bill's passing, we had a contract and we moved 2 months later. By then my Mother was coping well with her grief and I knew she would be OK without us.

As all this was concluding, I had that "Aha!" moment. If things had moved along on *my* timeline, I wouldn't have been there to make good memories with my stepfather, for myself, my Mom and my kids. I wouldn't have been there to love and support my Mom through her loss. God needed me to stay where I was for that time, and that purpose was more important than my eagerness to get moved.

Since then, these last 7 years, I really try to accept that whatever is happening at any point in time, is happening for a *reason*. Right now I'm trying to sell my business. Things are moving a lot more slowly than I'd hoped - but I'm not stressing about it too much (although I am human)... I'm just trying to do my best and know that God will take care of things, and it will all be OK and it will all come to pass as He intends it too.

I'm trying to do the same thing about my situation with my XH. I believe God touched my heart and brought it back to a state of love for my XH, and I also believe if it's His will, he will do the same for my XH and he will reunite our family. If it's not His will, He will show me another path - but there is a purpose for what I'm going through now, what I've been through up to this point.

I see examples of this all around me. If John Walsh had not lost his son Adam, to a criminal, would he have ever come up with America's Most Wanted? Doubtful - that traumatic event moved him to do great things for his fellow man.

If Terry Fox had not lost a leg to cancer, would he ever have run the Marathon of Hope? (Perhaps you won't know about this if you aren't from Canada - but anybody who is 35 or over from Canada will know what I'm speaking of).

Evil exists. We all meet up with it in some form or other. It's how we deal with it that makes a difference. I believe that God allows evil to exist so we can rise to the challenge and turn bad experiences into good ones.

I can relate to many of the posts here - I've been a 'negotiator' - "Please God if you do this, I'll do that". That typically doesn't work - it's not meant to. I've asked God to fill requests based on what I want - "Please God, let my house sell so I can move." I've asked that things be made easy for me... and other such things.

I think a lot of the things I've gone through, have increased my own spiritual awareness, and I'm still in my spiritual infancy.

Today I asked for help in handing all my problems to God, so that He may take care of them for me.

And strangely - today I feel more at peace than I have in a long, long time.

JinGA

MEDC, I have been saved and raised in non-denom churches since I was a small child...one of the foundations of those churches has been "Matt 21:22 If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."

However....

A couple years ago I found myself at a crossroads in my faith, because I came to ask the same questions you are asking. Do we have what we pray for or not? Why are so many faithful people not healed even while many unbelievers are? Do the prayers of a righteous man avail much or not? Why are innocent children allowed to suffer and die? I have not found an answer...I do not believe that anyone has an answer. "God's will and timing is not ours" is always the answer I get, too. But, how could it be the will of a God is who IS LOVE to let a child suffer and/or die? I don't get it. *sigh*

I'm sorry, MEDC. No answers here....just more questions. FWIW, I think BobPure also had a similar thread a while back...mostly pertaining to having prayed for his marriage for years, only to have it destroyed by infidelity. He basically got the same answers you have, tho, if I remember correctly.

This line of questioning has shown the flaws in my faith in the Word...not in God, but in the application of the written scriptures. To be honest, I don't know where to go from here, so I just don't question anymore.

Lori

That's good, MEDC. I wouldn't want the "FH response" either, whatever you think that is. What is important is God's response when you talking about prayer to God.
That IS what you are looking for, rather than "Man's common sense," isn't it?

So what is your concept or definition of a "common sense reply" that meets YOUR criteria, whatever they may be? That would seem to be a logical, common sense question, in order to understand just what it is you are looking for as an answer that meets your desire for something you can at least understand, even if you don't choose to accept the answer, don't you think? That gives guidance to those who are trying to help you find an answer to your question.

And while you are thinking about how to best answer those questions, let's add a couple more to help others who are trying to help you find an answer to your question about prayer and "getting what you pray for," okay?

Why do YOU think God does not grant all requests, exactly as the one praying may want it done?

Do you believe that God answers all prayers of believers and, if so, why would God NOT do exactly what is prayed for in all cases?




This seems to be the precise issue, doesn't it? You don't understand and you are seeking answers. That's exactly what God wants you to do. So is, perhaps, your basic question that underlies your not understanding the issue of God answering prayer one of not understanding the sovereignty of God? God HAS the power to do anything. He withholds using that power at times, frequently in fact. Why? Wouldn't that seem to be the primary question that also applies to why some prayers are answered "yes, right now," "yes, but not at THIS time, you will have to wait because there are other reasons for not granting that request immediately," and some are answered "no, there is a reason I will not grant that request and I, God, know what that reason is even if you don't understand why"?




No, MEDC, there is nothing unclear about that passage. What may be something for you to consider is the context of Matthew of 21 in which that passage appears and what Jesus was applying that statement to as He spoke to His disciples. This passage was in what is often referred to as the "Passion Week" just prior to His paying the penalty for our sins so that we COULD be reconciled to God AND have access to God in prayer.




Interesting the way you put that, "Either Scripture is literal or it is not." It would be helpful to all who are trying to help you with understanding this question of yours if you would define what you mean by "literal," since you defined it as an "either/or" issue. Is that how you believe ALL of Scripture should be understood, just this particular passage and the issue of prayers being answered for believers, or some parts of Scripture but not other parts? This is an important distinction, and what others may believe on this "literal" issue is important for them, but what is important to you, and potential answers to your question, is what YOU believe when you say "Either Scripture is literal or it is not."




This is precisely why I wrote the preceding paragraph. It is VERY important for us to understand WHAT you think should or should not be taken "literally." Your statement here, " Either the Bible should be taken literally or it shouldn't," is very problematic if you apply it solely by your "understanding" of why something did or did not occur.

It would, for example, seem to extend equally to other things that the Scripture teaches, but which we may not have a full understanding of with our limited knowledge and/or experience. For example, would you argue that Jesus was NOT Himself fully God? The Scripture clearly teaches that He was both fully human and fully God, but I, for one, have NO idea how that was possible from a "human perspective." The Scripture clearly teaches that Jesus paid the full penalty of ALL the sins of the world and gives justification before God to all who believe in Him as their Savior. I don't understand HOW He did that or WHY God pardons believers based upon what someone else (Jesus) did, but that is precisely what God the Father does.

I do not understand how God the Holy Spirit can simultaneously indwell ALL believers and seal them for eternity with God, given that we are all still capable of, and guilty of, committing sins AFTER we have received salvation in Christ and received the Holy Spirit as God's "seal" that we ARE saved and written in the Lamb's Book of Life. But that is literally and clearly what the Scripture reveals to us.

I do not understand how God SPOKE the universe, the world, and all that is in it into existence, but those are things that are literally what the Scripture teaches. I do not understand how God created all that is out of NOTHING, because we know that NOTHING in the physical universe can be made without a CAUSE. That is what the Laws of Thermodynamics are all about and nothing has been shown to invalidate those laws that God put in place, except for miracles wherein God "suspends" the natural laws that He put in place. Again, it returns to the sovereignty of God over ALL of Creation, including His ability to intervene (miracles) for HIS purposes. But the Scripture clearly teaches BOTH the natural laws governing all of life and the universe AND that God can, has, and will again, intervene OUTSIDE of "natural laws" when God wills that it be done…again, for HIS purposes, not for our purposes.


Lastly, from the "ultimate literal" statement that the Scripture clearly teaches, either "it is by grace you HAVE BEEN saved, not of works, lest any man should boast" is TRUE or it is FALSE. EITHER belief in, and acceptance of, Jesus as the ONLY way that God has provided by which any person can be saved is TRUE, OR there are "other ways" and Jesus' death as the propitiation of our sins was not "necessary."

Jesus did not die so that our prayers can be answered, He died so that we can be saved and reconciled to God. Jesus Himself sits at the right hand of the Father CONSTANTLY making intercession with the Father on behalf of all believers. Jesus CLEARLY taught us in the Garden of Gethsemene, that no matter what He "might want," He submits His will in the given matter to the Father's will, even though He, Himself, is God and is the eternal Word through whom, by whom, and for whom everything was created. Do I fully understand the relationship between the Trinity? No I don't. But it is there, God fully understands it, and I accept God's "will in the matter" as being the "final answer" whether I understand it or even if I might not agree with it "were it up to me to be God."

We can search for answers, but sometimes those answers are NOT given to us because God has not chosen to reveal to us, or has not chosen to fully reveal it to us.

That is what another literal statement in Scripture is trying to "get across to us."

"First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation." But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and with water. By water also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.

Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you be? You ought to live holy and godly lives as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.

So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position. But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and forever! Amen." (2 Peter 3:3-18)

MEDC, I don't understand a lot of things and I don't understand why God doesn't simply fulfill every request of every believer. But I DO know that God knows why, even if I don't.

If it were NOT "according to His will," if God "simply" granted every request with and immediate "yes" and then "did what was requested," how long would it be before someone acted in response to "scoffers" and prayed for the immediate second coming of Christ and the remaking all that is, even though, the "full number" of those that are to be saved has not yet been reached, intending to "make" God do what they are requesting even though it is of, or in, "the will of God?"





Easy answers? There are none. Clear understanding of ALL that God does? Not with our limited sight and understanding. But faith and trust are what believers live by, even in a fallen world and even when the "unsaved" seem to be "doing just fine without God."

God bless.

FH... I am not sure what your post says.. I will make the assumption that it was very respectful to the thread. However, you and I have gone round after round on these board and it not only is distracting to me, I am certain that it has been so for others as well. I will take the blame and admit that I am just rubbed the wrong way by your posts more often than not...the fault is mine. I just would appreciate you not repsonding to me or to my threads at this point. For whatever reason the posts eventually come down to you and me.... and I want to do everything in my power to avoid that in the future... that is why I chose to put you on ignore a while back.
Thank you for repecting that and I am certain that you will continue to add great value to others on the board.

MEDC

Such a great question... along with why God allows children to suffer... innocents... why was my son born with disabilities... why did my H's father die so young and amid so much suffering... (with an amputated leg caused by diabetes and ultimately bone cancer, MEDC)... so many questions... so few answers.

I've prayed my heart out about some things and heard no... and I've said very few prayers (if any) about other things and have felt the hand of God.

I simply believe... that God knows best... I have faith... I still ask why, and I still hate suffering, but I'm believing that when I get to heaven I can have a chat with the big guy and find out everything I want to know... and it will all make sense.

This is where I, too, have settled myself, NBII. I think we will find no "acceptable" answers here. My fretting is of no help to anyone, so I just let God work it all out. I admit, tho, that my prayer life still suffers greatly because I can't really believe when I pray for something specific. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> As I said, I'll just let God work it all out however He sees fit.

Lori

What I need to know is what I can expect from God.

Once I know that I can walk in my faith without feeling disappointed by God.

I have read libraries of stuff on this and have still not found a credible dogma that explains the perceived intervention in God's life versus the clear scriptural promises in the NT.

These kinds of discussions, MEDC, always ends up with an advisor teling me " trust in God".

I say " trust in God to WHAT exactly?" and it starts over again.

Right now I trust that God is God, but I do not expect Him to intervene on this fallen earth in response to prayer, but I do know that He CAN if He chooses.

To God I pray


It would be GREAT to see His awesome deeds once more to dispel my own and others confusion.

Yes, we are all His disciples if we believe in Him. But, does that mean that we will work miracles like those the disciples/Apostles later would? Does this verse extend to all disciples?

I don't believe it does. I believe Jesus was getting them prepared for the work they had to do once the Holy Spirit was given to them at Pentecost.

When I read the Bible, I see that miracle workers are sent by God. And they are always sent by God for a purpose. They always come w/ a revelation from God.

Miracles + revelations.

The two go hand in hand. They've never been separated.

Look at Moses..God sent him to do wonders. After having failed at being respected as a leader he complained to God that if he went to his people and told them he had a message from God, he wouldn't be believed. God gave him powers in order that they would be believed.

Miracle working were credentials to prove that Moses was a prophet sent by God w/ divine messages. This principle applies to the entire OT. Miracle workings were only performed by prophets.

When Elijah was on Mt. Carmel, and asked that fire be sent to consume his sacrifice he was interested in validating his prophetic ministry.

1 Kings 18:36

36And it came to pass at the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, that Elijah the prophet came near, and said, LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and of Israel, let it be known this day that thou art God in Israel, and that I am thy servant, and that I have done all these things at thy word.

In Psalms the psalmist ties together miracle working w/ being a prophet...

Psalm 74:9

9We see not our signs: there is no more any prophet: neither is there among us any that knoweth how long.

When there is no prophet there are no signs.

The NT miracles served in the same way that the OT miracles did. Jesus performed many miracles to prove He was the great prophet promised in Deut. 18:15..

15The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

Jesus was "like Moses" in wonder working. He even surpassed Moses miracles.

Now, even though mercies were shown to men through the miracles Jesus worked, there primary purpose was not to bring compasionate aid to the people, it served first and formost to call attention to the divinine authority of Jesus' teaching.

Look at what John 20: 30-31 says...

30And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Jesus performed miracles that we might believe who He is. That we would see that Christ is the Messiah, the greatest of all prophets, and that you would receive His words as the words of life.

In John 10:37-38, Jesus says....

37If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

He told us to look at His miracles as validation of His authority as a prophet.

When Nicodemus asked Jesus a question, "Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God...."

How did he know that Jesus was sent from God?

"...For no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be w/ him."

He knew why.

When Jesus fed the 5,000, people proclaimed, "This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world." They knew that only prophets performed miracles.

In John 7:31 same thing happened...

31And many of the people believed on him, and said, When Christ cometh, will he do more miracles than these which this man hath done?

It was understood that when Christ came, He would do the greatest miracles and speak the truth most plainly....

miracles + revelations

John 4:25

25The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.

In Peter's sermon at Pentecost, Peter rebuked the jews who crucified Jesus for not believing Him. Their unbelief was w/o excuse.

22Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

In 2 Cor. 12:12 Paul calls miracles 'signs of the apostles'. He considered miraculous gifts as a God given proof of an apostolic ministry.

In Galations 3:5, Paul appealed to his miracle working power as evidence that he should be believed rather than the Judaizers.

In Romans 15: 18-19 Paul goes through God's wonders done through him as proof of his apostleship.

Hebrews 2: 1-2 is key in understanding the doctrine of miracles...

1Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.
2For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
3How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
4God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will.

God's approval of of the message of the apostles was seen b/c they could perform signs and wonders. And that by recalling those wonders, it should deepen our respect for the authority of their words.

Now it is true that there were ordinary Christians who could also work miracles. But, it was the apostles who were the chief wonder workers, and only they could give the gift of working signs and wonders. Those who were given the gift could not give the gift to others. So, when they died, the miracle working ended w/ them.

My understanding and beliefs.

Just sharing, MEDC.

~ Marsh

To be good.

Trust in His goodness.

~ Marsh

It occurs to me that, if we only have faith in and love for God based on what He can or will do for us, then it isn't really faith or love at all. If I only loved my husband if he gave me lavish expensive gifts, or only for as long as he remained faithful, is that love?
So God wants us to love Him for WHO HE IS, not for what he can do for us. The scripture that BigK referred to, where we do not get what we ask for because we want to spend them on our pleasures, is speaking of the reasons so often that are behind our prayers....and that is, to make our lives easier.

Which would bring more glory to God, the person whose health was restored or limb regenerated, or the person who can rise above those thorns in the flesh through the strength of God and still praise Him?

Nobody would admire a man whose wife loved him only because he was rich and famous, but the one who earned devoted admiration and faithfulness through his loving kindness, the one who held his wife's hand through her illness and grief, he is the man you would want to get to know.

As for the evil, brokenness, and heartbreaking condition of this world, it was explained to me that the state we are in is due to the world being in the power of the evil one, that is, Satan. Satan thinks he knows better than God, and God is allowing him to try to prove that he can run the world and gain worshipers using his scandalous tactics and trickery. God has already overcome Satan, and we are assured through the Bible that the day will come when Christ returns and puts an end to the devil's rule once and for all. As humans, we are given a choice....God's way or Satan's way. Everything happening now is only temporary. Will we put aside our desires in the present time as we hold out for the hope of a renewed paradise with Christ? Or are we only interested in how we FEEL right now?
As a former wayward wife, I see this oh so clearly now. I was selfishly motivated, not willing to endure some temporary hardships with my husband. Hmmm, to me, the right choice is plain as day.

MEDC, very good topic, very interesting thread, I hope that I have helped at least a little.

NOW

I completely agree.

But, why would He bother to include scriptures re: healing and ask/believe/receive in the Bible if He didn't want us to use them?

I love this thread. Still pondering.....

Lori

At Peace, that is a good question. My thinking is that, asking demonstrates that we admit we NEED God. It shows our dependence on Him.

Asking demonstrates our belief that He WILL answer.
Receive....well, where does the Bible state WHEN we will receive what we have asked for?

I know and believe that when Christ returns, the blind will see, the deaf will hear, and those who have lost limbs will have them restored. It's not a matter of whether or not it will happen, I think it's a matter of WHEN.

Someone once explained the will of God to me like this:

Think of a will that a relative has drawn up. They WILL that you receive a million dollars and the beach house. Does that mean you will receive it right away? No, it won't happen until they die.
So maybe the promises we find in scripture ARE a given, it just won't BE given until a later time!

In the grander scheme of things, God knows that the suffering we endure now is a drop in the bucket compared to everlasting peace and happiness for eternity. His timing is different from ours....in fact, God has no sense of time, since HE WAS and IS and ALWAYS WILL BE.

NOW

Marsh

To be good.

Trust in His goodness.

Define "good" and "goodness".

As an abstract entity, God's "goodness" is inarguable but not manifested in our earthly lives in any way seperate from His intercession on all life on earth IME.

I'd have no problem with expecting no manifestation of Gods "goodness" in our lives if only there were not very clear scriptures that say God answers prayer affirmatively.

* A believer prays and suffers
* An unbeliever suffers

Result the same. What can the believer expect from God ?

To do some "good" thing in the spiritual realm ins response to prayer that is not manifested in the temporal one ?

Where i sthat backed up in thr NT ?

I shall go mad over this issue !

Bob,

The Bible tells us that in this world we will have trouble...but take heart, because He has overcome the world.

Troubles fall on believers and unbelievers alike. The difference is in what happens to us long-term. Will we spend eternity in God's presence, or in ******, with the unbelievers?

That is the primary difference. If you ask me, what happens to me in eternity is more important than anything that might afflict me right now.

Far be it for me to think the world revolves around me. I did that once and it got me into heap big trouble.

Have you ever read Job? Everybody was trying to figure out why God would allow such horrible things to happen to such a God-fearing man. In the end, he never really got an answer other than it is not for man to question God....and while Job was not spared earthly sorrow, he darn well was spared eternal ******.

What do you care about?

I have not read this entire thread, so if this is a repeat please ignore.

IMO, God works miracles all the time. Big and small. But, each and every miracle is always accomplished within and by the physical laws He set up for this universe.

That is to say, forces and events come together at just the right time and place to be seen by some to be a miracle. That some of these miracles seem to be timely intercessions does not prevent God from having set the necessary physical events in motions from the very moment of the big bang.

That some intercessions are not known to have happened simply fits the constraints of this particular universe. The rules are in play as God has always desired. He does not break the rules. So, re-growing a missing limb is not one of the events he decided from the beginning he would do. Maybe we already agreed to some of these prior constraints at some point too?

And maybe some of these miracles he is waiting for us to work out ourselves. Re-growing a limb may well be possible with genetic engineering in 50 years or so. That God set up our universe for us to learn how to use this capability is also pretty cool, IMO.

With prayers,

PS: The coolest miracles I have seen in my uneventful life are in pure mathematics, which has been called the language of God. Not just miracles, they are in fact God's very rules.