I have posted in GQ II before as well as the EN's column but don't know how to attach my link to those posts so for those who need a little more background, you can just search my username and they should pull up...

My WH was supposed to attend an awards ceremony last night that was only for employees and included an open bar- OW was there as well. Well, WH did not go as he had agreed it would not be a good idea since NC had not been determined and NC really had not been an issue at this time due to WH working in a different part of the company than he had when the R with OW originally started (this was a friendship turned EA on his part) but WH did not want to put himself in any position to mess up what we are working so hard to get back.

This morning, as predicted by us, OW called him 2x to see where he had been and why he hadn't emailed or called recently. My WH decided that due to a mandatory meeting they both are required to attend on Friday, he had to do NC now or chance messing us up more. Well, here is what transpired...actual emails copied and pasted...

WH to OW : "Hello, wanted to say congrats on your award. I also need to let you know that there have been some conversations between us that have been inappropriate. I will no longer be able to have personal conversations with you. However if it is work related that will be fine just send me an email. I am sorry it has to be like this, but this is the only way that my wife and I can get our marriage back on track to where it needs to be. I love my wife and my family and this is what I have to do.

Thanks, WH"

OW to WH: "Well, I am sorry that you feel that way, if they were inappropriate then it is because you let them get that way. It is sad that you feel that you can't talk to me at all. I never thought that there was any harm in being friends. I happy that you want to get your marriage back on track. I have my own and I am perfectly happy with my husband and not once did I see there being harm in being friends. Consider it done. I won't talk to you and you don't talk to me. I can certainly act as though I do not know you, that is certainly not a problem for me, because in my experience people like you come and go all the time, so why should you have been any different. So if you need something from the office, don't call me."

He is still searching tirelessly for another job, but has not had any call backs as of yet. I know he is really struggling today with this crap all hitting the fan. Any words of advice for him from anyone? I really feel his pain today even though it was his mess to clean up, he is really trying to change and we are really working on our marriage.

Thanks in advance...

Was this A exposed to OW's H? If not, it needs to be.

Her lackadaisical attitude leads me to believe your H isn't the first (and probably won't be the last...


Ouch...

Definitely I think OW's H MUST be told.

JinGA

jashley, this will never work if you want to recover from this affair. There should never ever be any contact for LIFE for any reason. Contact only means continuation of the affair.

"because in my experience people like you come and go all the time, so why should you have been any different."

What the heck is this supposed to mean? I have no idea...he did send a separate email to OW right after sending the first one (which he did CC to me by the way- I am sure that ticked her off even more) that confirms that the conversations becoming inappropriate were in fact, his fault.


No it has not been exposed to OW H, and OW H has had a PA (at least one) that she literally caught him in (saw his truck at a hotel). They separated for about 9 months and then she took him back. I don't know all the logistics (if MC was involved, IC or anything), just what my WH told me she told him. I completely disagree with her when she said she is "completely happy in my marriage" just because of this. However, I have only met OW once at a business dinner so I really don't know her any more than I know you at this point. I read the emails from WH and OW and although nothing sexual was implied, there were things said about me, mostly him venting to her, but that is inappropriate, in my book. Also, she would call him after hours when he was commuting home and they would talk for quite a while. I have no problem with my husband having friends that are female, but I don't think it's appropriate for a female co-worker to call after hours to talk about this and that- IMHO.

If you wouldn't say it in front of your spouse, don't say it to the OW. If that is incorrect thinking, then it is, but at this point, I have to believe that and so does WH in order for this to heal. This co-worker relationship was a full out friendship that was turning more than that. I totally believe you can have opposite sex friends at work, however, if you don't know where the line is, you can easily cross it. I know some will disagree with me on "where exactly is the line" but I think that somehow you can just know. I had no problem having male friends at work when I did work (SAHM for the past 8 years), but I certainly could see where it wasn't just "chit-chat" with some.

I know that sometimes EA's can take a while before turning to PA's, but I am convinced that if not made apparent, then that will almost always happen eventually. I know of one personally where a friend of mine had an EA for 14 months of just conversations and emails before anything physical happened and by that time, she said she never saw it coming.

I really struggled in the beginning when I read the emails because I didn't want to make something out of nothing. Everything about this R made my hair stand on end and he has worked many times with different women and never has that happened until her. I don't want to give the impression that I am some vindictive jealous wife because I am not. My problem was I was TOO trusting and now I know I cannot be so.

Hi.

I don't know how much you have read regarding affairs. Have you been informed that A's are an addiction?

If you and your H allow holes in your boundaries where NC or any opportunity for it are concerned, you will be relying on the sheer will of two people who are addicted to protect your M.

That is dangerous ground.

Dr. Harley advises WS's to take extreme precautionary measures. This includes your H quitting his job and in some cases - even moving to another state.

Sending her an e-mail to congratulate OW on her award is extremely inappropriate. There is no reason to "be nice" to someone who has been an interloper in your M.

If contact, or even OPPORTUNITY for contact is allowed, you are taking the risk that this EA could progress to a PA.

Well, until he finds something else, he has no choice. There may be times where he will directly have to work with her. Right now, because of the position he holds, he does not have to do that and I am monitoring his emails and this proves true. He cannot just quit his job. We are a one income family with a mortgage and two kids to support. If this sounds like I am justifying it, then so be it. Believe me, if I felt like we had realistic options at this point, then I would definitely make my opinions known.

He did not send the NC letter until now for that reason. When the EA started, they were working directly with each other. He has since moved up in the company and to a different subdivision (new homes construction). Unless they move him back to a different place, he has no reason whatsoever to contact her and for the past month, he has not. This has been verified by my snooping. He only sent the NC letter today because of the phone calls this morning wondering why he wasn't at the ceremony last night and because of the future meeting Friday.

He IS searching tirelessly for another job. He makes good money and things would be quite different if the housing market were good or the job market were good. Houses in our subdivision have been for sale going on a year now.

There is no problem on us moving out of state. If we could then we would. We have nothing saved and would have to sell the house- if that's even possible- in order to do so. I have no desire to live on the street at this point and that is exactly what would happen if we uprooted the kids and he quit his job.

We are in MC that is just beginning this weekend with a couple from our church who have been through what we are going through.

I know it must seem that I am in my own fog and rejecting any advice, but I really am not trying to. I just think it's a little more complicated than "quit your job and move". What if you have no money and a mortgage? I don't understand how people do that.

EXACTLY!

And even in a M where no A has ocurred, this kind of trust should not be given. That is how you protect your M.

If you expose this A to OWH, it will offer the insurance that he will be aware and monitoring her activites and correspondence, which provides accountability for her actions.

This is why exposure is such a useful tool and should also be extended to exposing to their employer as well.

Also, how would you feel if someone had information that your spouse had behaved inappropriately and neglected to pass that information on to you?



This is most definitely inappropriate.


This is how a PA begins.

This is also why it is dangerous for ANY spouse to have opposite-sex friends.



And you are correct.

The same principle applies to opposite-sex friends. It leaves too much opportunity to allow for emotional involvement - a risk not worth taking with something as important and sacred as your marriage.

Understand. Just as long as you can accept that the affair cannot end as long as they are still in contact. Every contact will put him back to Day 1 of recovery as he will be in a state of perpetual withdrawal. That is because every contact will rekindle their feelings for one another.

This is like sending a "recovering" alcoholic into a bar every day and giving him drinks but calling them "business drinks." The alcoholic can never withdraw, never recover until he quits entirely.

Your H and his OW cannot turn back the clock and regress back into business associates from affair partners. They have gone way beyond that stage.

So, I do understand that your H won't leave his job or cut off contact, just as long as you understand that the affair will not end and are willing to accept that.

I know he has asked his immediate supervisor to meet him this morning at 10:30 privately. I am confident he will tell him what has transpired. It's hard because he is already on eggshells with his job. The job market sucks and he is already afraid to lose his job.

He has contacted a previous employer who is looking for workers and has sent out several resume's. We are praying on one of those working out.

We know that only God can ultimately get us through this.

I completely understand what you are saying. I know that it isn't a simple choice, nor is it an easy one, but it IS a choice.

Allowing the possibility for contact and expecting sheer will to prevent damage to your M would be like putting an alcoholic in a bar and crossing your fingers that he won't take a drink.

It just isn't wise, IMO.

I understand that the financial security of your family is important. It won't matter one iota if there is no M. A job can be replaced. Your M cannot.

Coping with Infidelity: Part 2
How Should Affairs End?



http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html

Never see or communicate with a former lover

Once an affair is first revealed, whether it's discovered or admitted, the victimized spouse is usually in a state of shock. The first reaction is usually panic, but it's quickly followed by anger. Divorce and sometimes even murder are contemplated. But after some time passes (usually about three weeks), most couples decide that they will try to pull together and save their marriage.

The one having an affair is in no position to bargain, but he or she usually tries anyway. The bargaining effort usually boils down to somehow keeping the lover in the loop. You'd think that the unfaithful spouse would be so aware of his or her weaknesses, and so aware of the pain inflicted, that every effort would be made to avoid further contact with the lover as an act of thoughtfulness to the stunned spouse. But instead, the unfaithful spouse argues that the relationship was "only sexual" or was "emotional but not sexual" or some other peculiar description to prove that continued contact with the lover would be okay.

Most victimized spouses intuitively understand that all contact with a lover must end for life. Permanent separation not only helps prevent a renewal of the affair, but it is also a crucial gesture of consideration to someone who has been through ******. What victimized spouse would ever want to know that his or her spouse is seeing or communicating with a former lover at work or in some other activity?

In spite of career sacrifices, friendships, and issues relating to children's schooling, I am adamant in recommending that there be no contact with a former lover for life. For many, that means a move to another state. But to do otherwise fails to recognize the nature of addiction and its cure.

Look at M.S.'s husband. Here he is, thousands of miles from his lover, and yet he still feels compelled to call her. Can you imagine the trouble M.S. would have had separating them if they had not moved? Their move was the best thing that could have happened to their marriage because it not only revealed the affair, but it also set up the conditions that would make ending it possible -- total separation.

We don't know if R.J. still sees his lover, but he says he has broken off all contact. In many cases where a person is still in town, that's hard to prove. But one thing's for sure, if he ever does see his lover, it will put him in a state of perpetual withdrawal from his addiction, and make the resolution of his marriage essentially impossible. In fact, one of the reasons he is not recovering after three months of separation may be that he is not being truthful about the separation.

I understand what you are saying...thank you for saying it the way you did and not throwing it at me, and I also understand the position I am in.

I have made this apparent to my H and he knows that his decisions ultimately affect my decisions. He knows as long as he works there, I will not trust anything he says. His actions are what speaks to me now.

I have tried too hard for too long to control him and get him to make decisions that I think he needs to make and I am wrong and done doing that. He needs to be a man and make his own decisions.

I also have accepted that per the posts that are here already, I cannot get any advice as to how to help him because of his decisions. I will show him this thread and maybe it will help him understand my point since it's from other people too. He is glad I have found this site and am learning things from it. He will not post on here because I know from other posts I have read that that is inappropriate and I agree completely.

Thank you ML, JinGA and Frozen for your comments...they are taken and will be thought hard upon as well as printed out to discuss with WH. In light of what has been posted so far, I will refrain from posting any more regarding this as long as we continue to be "in limbo". I realize that in order to heal and change, the principles that the Harley's recommend must be adhered to. Thank you again...

jlashley,

I hope that you don't think anyone here is trying to berate you or beat you down.

I believe that Melodylane and I say these things because we have learned that these are the ways to protect a M and we have seen these principles work for the people who choose to follow them. We have also seen many marriages fail as a result of NOT following these guidelines.

I believe that you must value your M or you wouldn't be here.

To refuse to accept less than what you believe is the best course of protection for your M is not controlling.

"...he did send a separate email to OW right after sending the first one"

Your H needs to STOP sending emails all togther. He sent one saying ...don't ever talk to me agian ish and then emails her right after. What does that say to her???

Your H should also call OWH and tell him what "they" were doing. OWH needs to know.

Edited to add: Maybe the OW will then find a new job...

No, I don't feel either one of those things. I just don't want to come across as someone who is trying to justify what is being done all the while wondering why we are miserable. There has been no contact for a while and things with us are getting considerably better than they were before. I just don't want good advice seeming to be wasted on myself when the general principles for ending the A are not being followed to a "T". I understand completely what each of you are saying and am not upset at anyone on here at all.

Just an FYI just checked WH email and he forwarded his NC email to his supervisor...

That's the good thing about the advice here. It's FREE! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I certainly don't expect you or anyone to listen or else...you are perfectly free to make your own choices and I respect your right to do so.

I hope that you continue to read and post here and I greatly appreciate your honesty and forthrightedness.

I am thrilled that your H decided to forward the NC e-mail to his supervisor. That, to me, says that he is placing your feelings and your marriage at a higher priority than his professional comfort level.

We would love to have him participate in MB discussions, should he ever wish to do so.

Thank you so much for your encouragement. I will continue to read here as I have become addicted...in a good way of course...and hopefully as more happens that is in tune with the Harley's advice, will continue to post. I know success stories are well needed to balance out all the hurt and pain people are going through here. My heart breaks for those whose situations are much worse than mine. I'll keep you guys informed of anything else that happens today. Certainly a whirlwind on our end! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Since I did say I would keep those who replied informed of anything new...I wanted to add to say that last night my WH informed me of a conversation he had with a different female co-worker on Monday. She asked him if he was going to the awards ceremony that was held Tuesday and he said no and she asked him if he told OW. He thought this to be odd and said "No, why should I?" and she said that OW had been talking about it as well as talking about him. She then added that back in the fall when OW found out that WH was being moved to another part of the company, she was upset and cried. Co-worker thought this was strange and let my WH know about it. (This is not a co-worker that he sees all the time so the timing of why she didn't tell him about OW's reaction makes sense.- just thought I'd clarify that)

This certainly makes me feel like my feelings of "am I making something out of nothing" go away. I can't imagine crying over someone unless I had emotionally invested myself into them.