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This thread is for kiras, who started posting HERE.kiras wrote: I have been married for 10 years and I have never been able to successfully resolve any major issue with my wife or reach a point where we can negotiate or resolve conflicts.
My wife constantly accuses me of lying and being incompetent or pathetic.
Initially in the early days of our marriage, I would do various cleaning chores etc. This would cause great conflict and distress amongst us that resulted in arguments. I now just try to appease her which does not work and causes resentments in her. I am at my wits end after several psychologists’ who can not assist me much. I have read Dr Harvey’s basic concepts but it does not seem to address a way back that works for me.
This is a typical conversation with my wife
(I am “H” my wife is “W”)
W Have you finished washing the bed linen?
H I put it in the washing machine 3 minutes ago darling. I will hang it out when the machine finishes it.
W Are you sure you did it?
H Sure! It is in the machine – Why, what’s wrong?
W Don’t give me “What’s wrong” you known darn well what’s wrong!!
H Sorry, you’ve lost me, is there a problem with the wash?
W You’re Pathetic!! If you were honest you would not have said you have washed the bed linen when you clearly have not!!
H Now I’m really lost!
W Let me spell it out slowly so you can understand – if you had washed the bed linen like I asked, you would have washed both sheets and BOTH pillow cases. That pillow case down on the floor that is staring at you right now would be in the wash with the rest of the linen. So don’t lie to me and tell me that you “put it in the washing machine 3 minutes ago DARLING!!!” You put SOME of the linen in the wash and could not be bothered to check you did it right, because lets face it you care about the washing about as much as you care about me you lying ******.
H I am sad you feel so angry about this. I do care about you and I am sorry if I missed the pillowcase. I will put it in the wash now as the cycle has not finished.
W Don’t bother - and don’t try to cover up your neglect. You’re not sorry at all; if you were you would have shown some interest in me and the washing and not stuffed up in the first place. – GO AWAY and get out of my sight.
24 hours later
W I hon, what do you want to do tonight?
H Gee it is good to see that you are in a good mood; do you want to have dinner or watch TV?
W Sure – Whatever.
H Before we do can I talk about how I felt last night?
W What about?
H Well, I felt really hurt and humiliated when you spoke those words to me. I AM sorry that I missed the pillowcase, and I tried to correct my mistake. However, I felt really hurt by the way you criticised and belittled me in front of the children over a mistake that was easily fixed. I know you felt Angry and I want to understand what is really going on between us, can we explore this together for a while before we do something tonight.
W Why must you always bring up the past!!! I have moved on from that but oh no you must go and ruin a romantic evening by dwelling on your own past hurts – you selfish self indulgent pig. Thanks for ruining my night or didn’t you notice that I was over it and willing to move on – you’re the one who wants trouble, not me!!!
That conversation took place about a month after we married. It is now 10 years on and this same conversation is played out in more or less the same style every few weeks or even days. Of course it is not bed linen, it may be cleaning, washing up or even the accuracy of words e.g.:
W What time did you get up this morning?
H 6 am
W Then why did I see you reaching for the alarm clock at 6.02am?
H Well it was about 6 am
W You didn’t say that. You said 6 am.
H I meant about 6 am.
W If you meant about 6 am you would have said about 6 am not 6 am.
H Next time I will say about 6 am.
W You’re still a liar.
Over the years we tried a few marriage counsellors who set goals for me to only do what I wanted to do, let her deal with the difference between my actions and her expectations. This only infuriated her and she refused to go back.
After a while we evolved. I would use only broad statements that were not very clear responses or I would try to appease her by asking very details instructions for not only what she wanted but how it was to be achieved. This worked for a while until she accused me of being un-spontainious or uncreative and “Robotic” or unpassionate.
She said I should see a Psychologist to learn how to be a man and make proper decisions even if she gets angry in the process which she sees as a natural and accurate expression of her feelings.
For a while I would fight back and yell at her if she started getting abusive. I would then slam the front door and go for a drive for a few hours. On my return she would be even angrier and accuse me of “running away” or “whimping out”. She would also label this as violent behaviour and instruct me to see another therapist to sort it out.
Having seen a good CBT psychologist I now know that my responses were in fact inappropriate and that I need to monitor my anger, feel and experience it, but not act on it. I can now stay calm, speak slowly and compassionately to my wife no matter how inflamed her language or put downs become. However, I feel very remote, detached and as Dr Harvey would say – Withdrawn.
The good news is that my wife has agreed to read some of Dr Harvey’s material but still blankly refuses to re-enter marriage counselling as she say “how can someone who has a stupid husband, 3 small children who wakes at 7 am and gets to bed at 2 am afford the time to go to some therapist just because her husband can’t handle things without some therapist to hold his hand”.
I love the ideas Dr Harvey has, and would love to implement them, but how do you get the traction in your marriage to get it going. I feel like I am always behind the 8 ball. (My wife says that last comment was just me being a victim and trying to make her out as the bad guy).
I see my main limitation as now wanting to debrief and resolve past hurts that I still remember but she has probably forgotten.
Despite what she says, I do not believe that the following two objectives are unreasonable:
1. restore power balance
2. agree to framework for conflict mapping and active listening (feedback, negotiated agreements for all activities)
I asked her about this once and she said I was dreaming as “all I want to do is talk rather than act and she has no time for theoretical talk”
Is there hope for such marriages??? and I have also visited the sites above ( www.youarenotcrazy.com but the web sites seems to give women specific info and handling men. What about the guys? I identified with the stories but how are men meant to find their way through it all? ...recently my wife admitted that she made some errors in the past in the way she handled certain situations. However she said that all I did was wanted to "Discuss" it at the time and I completely failed to prevent her from taking such painfull action. She says that I "talk much and do little" and that if I wanted her to do something (or more importantly) not do something, then I should have DONE something rather than suggested she change. She said the first thing I could have done is not made the mistake in the first place and then no one would have had to yell. ...Thanks for your comments. I still hope that I can find a way through. I know that Dr Harley mentions that one partner can lead the other back. I hope I have enough love bank deposits left. My wife says that Dr Harley is just "words" and unless a person ACTS responsibly (this means not making mistakes) then all the words are useless. My key question is "How do you get your partner to come to marriage counseling when they see the problem as totally the responsibility of the other partner" or as my wife says "in the times that she has been wrong, I totally failed to prevent her from making those mistakes" And why does all the DV web sites speak solely about abusive men - I do not believe that I am the only man in the world going through this???
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Joined: Sep 2003
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kiras -
I think you need to study up on boundaries. While you can't change another person, you can change your response to that person. Your wife seems to be controlling and abusive. You might want to sit her down, and tell her that you will no longer "explain" why you neglected to do one thing or another.
Then when she asks about why you made this mistake or another, you refuse to participate. You can tell her firmly that you will not tolerate abuse, and then leave the room or the house. She won't like it at first, but if you are consistent, she will need to change.
As far as her getting angrier when you leave, that is her problem. It sounds like she uses her anger to control people.
Is it true that she works from 7:00AM until 2:00AM? Does she work outside the home? Do you work outside of the home?
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 50
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Yous seem to be doing all you are able to communicate with Kira in a positive way. I agree that she has issues to deal with. How absurd to argue over 2 minutes on a clock! I feel there are deeper issues inside of her that she is covering with her 'nit-picking' over such trivial matters.
I would also advise you to discuss and communicate with her as you are, but if she starts the 'nit-picking', controlling ways - simply walk away; not with anger or any input; just allow her to know you are not going to 'listen' to such irrational conversation. Do listen and stay and communicate when she is not talking in that manner. She should get the hint eventually.
YOUNG AT HEART
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Joined: Aug 1999
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Kiras, I am going to start with my NON-MB, non-PC initial thoughts about your post. First, thought, what the heck is this guy doing married to this woman...she has some serious control issues. Second thought, Holy Smokes, they have had kids together, poor children. Next thought, quit playing games with this woman and leave her she will not change and she will warp the kids no matter whether he stays around or not. Next thought, THE ONLY CHANCE these kids have is to be with their Dad. Ok, got that out of my system. To start with the suggestion that you set boundaries is an excellent one. Second, thought learn as much as you can about the MB approach tothings, but recognize that they will NOT change your W. They may help you endure and deal with this while showing your children what a "normal" person is. Quite frankly, you need to do a really really honest assessment of yourself, and going to an IC might help in this. What in fact does she say that has ANY merit? What in fact does she say that has NO merit? I would say that when she brings up stuff that has no merit, you simply look at her and say "that statement has no basis in fact and I will not respond to it." To those statements that do have a basis in fact, work on those things, and accept her comments. I would also draw a boundary about her comments concerning you in front of the children. I doubt she will honor them, but lay it out for her so that she knows. Then do your best to be a good father and rear your children to be successes in life. Being a good father does NOT mean giving them everything they want, it often means saying NO and making it stick. My last thought for the moment is take control of YOUR life. I mean monetarily, I mean emotionally, I mean as a father, and yes as a husband. This does not mean fight with your W, it means YOU control YOUR life and you refuse to let her do so. Given what you have said, I don't see anyway to avoid arguements with her, given her sense of entitlement, victimhood, and lack of empathy. But, given that you will argue, make them "fair" from your side, and use them to establish YOUR boundaries, rather than attack her. Although pointing out her failures will no doubt raise the temp. in the room. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I hope something I have said is of help. God Bless, JL
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Joined: Mar 2003
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Kiras, Your wife is what is called a crazymaker. Crazymakers
Married 1976
Me:BS
Him:FWS
MB Weekend March 2003
2 S's: '77 & '80, 1 D: '82
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Joined: Sep 2000
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Helllooooo...
Is anyone out there??? Kiras...are you there?
(bump) for kiras
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 123
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our wife is definitely abusive. She tries to control you by raking you over the coals whenever you don't do what she dictates you should do. She lays traps for you. She treats you with contempt, using you as a target for her anger. She seems to need someone to be angry with. Most of the time, it is women who are on the receiving end of this kind of treatment, but men can also be the victims of this kind of aggression. Most marriage counsellors do not know how to deal with this kind of marriage and counselling often ends up with the focus shifting away from the abusive partner's behaviour to the abused partner's way of communicating as a way of trying to change the way the abuser behaves. This doesn't work. The abusive partner is very adept at shifting the focus away from himself/herself on to the other party. My suggestion is that you read Steven Stosny's book "You Don't Have to Take it Anymore" and go to his website www.compassionpower.com - read through Stosny's book, then ask your wife if she would be willing to read it. The first part of the book is for you. The "Boot Camp" part of the book is for her. She behaves this way because she refuses to feel pain. Because she refuses to feel pain, she cannot feel compassion. If she could feel what it feels like to be you, she wouldn't treat you like this. She needs to rediscover the feeling of trying to protect and care for someone who is hurting. In order to do that, she has to allow herself to feel the pain of the person who is hurting, that she is supposed to protect and care for. She won't allow herself to experience that step. Until she gets to a place in her life where she is willing and able to do that, she cannot change. She might want to change but not know how. At some point, you will have to decide whether or not you want to continue living with this if she will not change. I can understand why you would want to try to seek help from everywhere you could before giving up. But you don't want to get to a point where you cannot feel anything yourself anymore. Have you thought about leaving and what would happen with your children? Would you press for custody? How does she treat them? How would you react if you saw her start to treat them the same way she treats you? It's good that you have recognized that her treatment does not justify aggressive or abusive reactions on your part. Don't allow her to provoke you into reacting violently, otherwise she can use that against you. Leaving the house, or walking away, refusing to engage with her unless she can speak to you in a respectful manner are all reasonable and sensible ways to deal with her, but ultimately are not enoughh to change her. They are ways for you to learn self-control and you need to use those times to give yourself credit for behaving in a reasonable way. Stosny's book will give you exercises to help you restore your sense of worth in the world and what your deepest values are, to help give you the strength you need to live in a way which is at one with your deepest values, that which is your birthright. When you recover this, your compassion for her will not allow you to let her continue treating you like this, because ultimately it is bad for her. I wish you well.
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Joined: May 2007
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Hi everyone thanks for the comments. Sorry it has taken me a while to respond. My time on the computer tends to be sporadic at best. Yes I am starting to get the idea. I know that I can only change myself, and my wife’s behaviour is her responsibility.
My new approach of not yelling and using firm but respectful language helps me.
The new boundaries help but it is still difficult when someone is calling you an IDIOT.
Over the weekend, my wife wanted “family time” and felt deeply hurt when I went to bed rather than watch TV with her and the children. She said she feels like I desert the family in such situations. Sounds quite reasonable – however she stated putting on the TV at 12.30am. Then at 1.30am she came into the main bedroom where I was sleeping and put the light on demanding that I put my daughter to bed. I do so and said “please do not put the light on when I am sleeping, I have asked this before. I do not appreciate it” She said “would that be in the same way that I do not appreciate being abandoned by you whimping out and going to bed?”
She then spent the next half hour telling my I was a failure and a deserter.
I asked her to stop saying this and if she did I would leave and go for a drive. (which I did after another 10 minutes)
Later she left a message on my phone saying “10 minutes – that’s a record even for you. Usually it takes you much longer to walk out on your family.
I see that she sees desertion as a far greater crime than abusive language. Today she said that she was sorry as she was having a bad weekend where she was feeling alone and unsupported. She also said that I could better support her by not leaving during these encounters and “just sticking with her” until she gets over her crisis rather than whimping out.
At times like this she says that I am actually a good husband and there is nothing wrong with the marriage provided I can hang in there and learn to ignore her outbursts and not make the mistakes that cause her to feel abondonded.
We both hold down full time jobs and she does rise at 7.00am and most nights is in bed by 1.00am sometimes later (most of her time is spent ironing or redoing jobs that she is not happy with my completion until 12.00am then TV for an hour).
Friend4life, I had never looked at the concept of her not willing to experience pain. I think this may be the case as I have said “If one of us has a problem in the marriage, then we both do” She said that I had the problem and there really is no major problem and what problems we have can be fixed by me showing commitment to the marriage and family (by not making mistakes, answering quickly, accurately etc)
Just Learning, what is the MB approach?
As for custody and separation, this would be difficult as I would not get custody. Essentially I do not want to separate and put my kids through all the trauma and split assets etc, I really want a fappy marriage and family etc. At the end of the day, we have much going for us, we are financially comfortable, neither of us has had an affair, we get along great with my in laws and all of our relatives it is just when she is not happy with what I do. (she does treat her mother shockingly however).
I will have a read of Steven Stosny’s book and I did like the web site on Crazy Makers.
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Joined: Sep 2001
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How old are the children...
your wife's behavior in my opinion is very very ladden red flags....
here's whats the most concerning to me...
is her INABILITY to own any responsibility for her behaviors or actions...
all of her actions she links to you making her do or act so..
OR
you not doing or acting so...
very very dangerous territory...
Your wife in my opinion needs medication....her brain has been functioning at this level for a long time...it is how it is wired.....
I would suggest YOU get a counselor....and go
that you learn to speak non appeasement statements..
and learn languages from your counselor in how to address these things...
you need to say things...like
I am going to a counselor so that I can survive and still feel love towards someone who thinks nothing of calling me names over and over....
and walk away from her...
you need to leave her stewing in her own mess a lot more...than she is...
I also think that when she escalates this abuse during normal hours that you immediately remove you and the children from her presence...and go somewhere "safe" for a bit...or a while if that is what it takes...
I would quit ironing one ounce of HER clothing
you need clear languages that put the onus back on her
you need to document just in case any abuse that is directed towards the children..a back pocket plan so to speak...
you need to go to counseling and encourage her...to do the same....
you need to realize that any changes you make in this pattern will cause her to initially escalate.....
and that things will get worse at times before better because change is scary...
I also recommend you tape record without her knowledge her attacks on you...video tape even better...
I think that if she were to get in to counseling down the line it would be very very significant information for her and her counselor to have...
also I think you should record her rants so YOUR counselor can hear what it is like..
though you will need a very very pro marriage counselor...
though not diagnosing....
your wife is presenting with specific diagnosable pyschiatric qualities....qualified by true medical reasearch...
and there is help and hope for such disorders....
no different than diabetes..etc..
If nothing else YOU must get help on appropriate techniques to deal with such a person and to be able to teach the children how to survive with such a mom until and or IF she ever agrees to get treatment....
I feel sorry for her...she is losing out on a wonderful life.....
what are the chances of her seeing someone about these issues...
please consider the video/recording...
these could be very very valuable tools..
also you have to gauge and think seriously of what are the chances of her actions now entirely focused on you..turned on the children....
how much risk is there in using them as weapon against you..
does she tell them you are an idiot etc....
you need a couple of plans...and one just might be an escape plan for you and the children...
but that is something you and your counselor could work out..
also you may not want to tell her you are seeing a counselor...cause she will attempt to undermine that...and you should do so during work time...
my suggestion
find a good good marriage counselor first.....for YOU....
and go from there...
ARK
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kiras, Just for clarification, I would like to go through your post and point out to you all the instances where your W is being either verbally abusive or disrespectful or inappropriate. I am not doing this to make your W seems like a "monster" or to be mean, but rather to hopefully open your eyes to the seriousness of the problem...and maybe also to reinforce for you what IS and IS NOT healthy. Here we go! Hi everyone thanks for the comments. Sorry it has taken me a while to respond. My time on the computer tends to be sporadic at best. Yes I am starting to get the idea. I know that I can only change myself, and my wife’s behaviour is her responsibility.
My new approach of not yelling and using firm but respectful language helps me. Yes--good job! You W may indeed choose to blame, project, and yell, but that does not give you free license to do so also. I suspect that being assertive is the best way that you can handle yourself. Being assertive does not mean "making her do it your way"--it means speaking up for yourself, speaking YOUR truth, and being firm. Good job!! Keep at it!!! The new boundaries help but it is still difficult when someone is calling you an IDIOT. Okay--here's our first instance of abuse. Calling someone derogatory names is abuse, pure and simple. So is calling someone a name and then saying, "I was only joking. You have no sense of humor." Here is what respectful would sound like: W - "Oh stop being an idiot"; kiras - "I do not appreciate being called a derogatory name, and I will no longer tolerate that in my life"; W - "You have a point there, kiras. That was belittling and I apologize. In the heat of argument I made a poor choice." See how she is accepting personal responsibility for her own choices?? Topic #2: boundaries. I would like to re-iterate that boundaries are rules and guidelines AROUND YOU and not around her. For example, I have a boundary that I will not tolerate verbal abuse in my marriage relationship. My partner is completely free to choose to be abusive if that's what he chooses--but *I* choose to not stay in a situation like that. I will leave...and I will leave for longer and longer periods the more he does it. If he continues to choose to be verbally abusive, I may have to separate from him...but I WILL NOT BE INVOLVED IN AN ABUSIVE RELATIONSHIP. See, kiras?? It's all about me and what *I* will do and how *I* will enforce it on myself--the other person is completely free to make the choices they will. I don't force him to do it my way. (BTW...I'm lucky enough to have a partner who knows this boundary and voluntarily chooses to not be verbally abusive so he can be with me!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />) Over the weekend, my wife wanted “family time” and felt deeply hurt when I went to bed rather than watch TV with her and the children. She said she feels like I desert the family in such situations. Sounds quite reasonable – No...actually it doesn't. Kiras, she is placing responsibility for HER feelings in YOUR hands. SHE is responsible for HER feelings. If she feels deserted just because you go to sleep, then she needs to examine what it is within herself that she feels abandoned so easily--and she needs to learn techniques how to soothe herself when she does feel emotionally triggered that way. It is not your responsibility to make her feel ANYTHING. She CHOOSES how to feel. Now, it would be reasonable for her to request that you stay with the family and state why, and then give you the freedom to choose "yes" or "no" based on her REQUEST. If you are not free to choose "yes" or "no" without punishment, then it is not a REQUEST--it is a DEMAND. The issue here is NOT you going to bed early and "deserting the family"--it is her abandonment issues and her failure to accept responsibility for her own issues and her projecting her issues onto you. ... however she stated putting on the TV at 12.30am. Then at 1.30am she came into the main bedroom where I was sleeping and put the light on demanding that I put my daughter to bed. I do so... Okay--another instance of abuse. You were not free to answer "yes" or "no" to staying with the family, and so she punished you. Punishing your spouse for refusing to do your demands is emotional abuse. Turning on lights when your spouse is sleeping and disturbing them as punishment is emotional abuse. A healthy response would sound like this: W (next morning...at coffee) - "I was very disappointed that you chose to go to bed rather than spend time with us. Could we talk about that for a little bit? I would like to request spending more family time together." Another healthy response would have been: W (turning on light at 1am) - "Oh, honey, I am so sorry to disturb you but I am just having an emergency here! DD just threw up and DS cut his hand! Can you help? Take DD and I'll take DS" Can you see the difference?? ...I do so and said “please do not put the light on when I am sleeping, I have asked this before. I do not appreciate it” She said “would that be in the same way that I do not appreciate being abandoned by you whimping out and going to bed?”
She then spent the next half hour telling my I was a failure and a deserter. Here's two more examples of verbal abuse. First, good for you for being assertive there! You stood up for yourself and gave yourself a voice!!! GOOD JOB!! Please note that when you spoke to her, you made a REQUEST "Please don't turn on the light when I'm sleeping. I don't appreciate it" and you kept it on you. VERY GOOD JOB!! Next, though, note how BOTH of her responses are verbally abusive--the second one even more abusive than the first! Her first response was to call you derogatory names and project responsibility for how she feels onto you. Remember, kiras, you do not "make" her feel anything--she chooses. There is some reason why she feels abandonment over the slightest things, and it IS NOT your responsibility to keep her from feeling that way. It is HER responsibility to learn WHY she feels like that so frequently, and to learn coping techniques and new behaviors. THEN, she moves on to a half hour tirade. This is EXTREMELY abusive--verbally, emotionally, and mentally. GIGANTIC red flag. When someone tirades, that is usually an indicator that the abuse is escalating. I asked her to stop saying this and if she did I would leave and go for a drive. (which I did after another 10 minutes)
Later she left a message on my phone saying “10 minutes – that’s a record even for you. Usually it takes you much longer to walk out on your family. Once again, GOOD JOB!!! You did a very good job speaking assertively and holding to your boundary of not tolerating a tirade. You gave her the option to quit or lose your presence, and she chose to continue...so she lost your presence. Kiras, all along, if she wanted you to stay, she had the option of STOPPING HER TIRADE. She is the one who made the choice to continue--you just followed through on what you said you'd do. You didn't force her to continue. You didn't force her to fix YOUR feelings. You let her choose...and she did. When you allowed her to experience the consequences of her choices, what did she do? Take personal responsibility? HECK NO! She continued with MORE verbal abuse!! Kiras, are you beginning to see just how SERIOUS this really is? From what I can observe, your reactions seem somewhat reasonable and healthy--and hers are entirely, deeply, and extremely abusive on several levels! NOT GOOD! I see that she sees desertion as a far greater crime than abusive language. Today she said that she was sorry as she was having a bad weekend where she was feeling alone and unsupported. She also said that I could better support her by not leaving during these encounters and “just sticking with her” until she gets over her crisis rather than whimping out. Sooooo...what she said was, "I'm sorry I was abusive, so let me blame you for my issues and abuse you some more." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Kiras, here is what a healthy response would sound like: W - "I did not do very well this weekend. I felt deserted and reacted by lashing out at you. I chose to turn on the lights and wake you up because I was mad. I chose to yell and scream and call you names, and I did not make wise choices. When you said you'd go for a drive if I didn't stop, I got even more mad and left you a nasty VM. My choices were HORRIBLE and I bet they really hurt you. In fact, I can understand why you would want to get away from me when I was ranting and raving. I think I need to review my anger management books and maybe make an IC appointment so I can figure out what's up with me. In the meantime, I want you to be safe and I would encourage you to do whatever you need to do in order to be emotionally safe from me." It is NOT your job to make her feel "supported"--especially not when she is abusing you!! It is NOT your job to stay during an "encounter" so she can finish abusing you! It is NOT your job to just allow her to abuse you until she "gets over her crisis". And it is NOT your job to stand around and accept it while she calls you derogatory names. ALL of those behaviors are verbal, emotional, and mental abuse, and IT IS your job to protect yourself and your children from abuse. At times like this she says that I am actually a good husband and there is nothing wrong with the marriage provided I can hang in there and learn to ignore her outbursts and not make the mistakes that cause her to feel abondonded. NO-NO-NO!! She is saying that as long as you agree to be her teddy bear and do everything HER way--as long as she can blame everything on you--as long as you allow her to ignore HER OWN ISSUES--as long as she is allowed to have an outburst at you if you are anything less than imperfect...then you are being a "good husband". But if you expect her to be mature, expect her to take personal responsibility for herself and her own choices, expect her to reach joint agreement with you and treat you respectfully, or expect her to control her own anger and resist punishing you if you make a mistake...then you are a "bad husband". Kiras, that is completely unreasonable. SHE is a grown woman. SHE is responsible for controlling herself and her anger...even if you make a mistake!! Furthermore, you are her EQUAL in the relationship. Can YOU punish HER if SHE makes a mistake?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Do not accept her blame, kiras. It is NOT YOU being a poor husband. What she's talking about is not "support" it's "control." I hope this was an eye-opener for you. All my highest regard, CJ
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 18
Junior Member
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Junior Member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 18 |
Hi everyone thanks for all you responses. I really do appreciate this. Most of the counsellors and Psychologist I have seen have not been as specific as you have.
Firstly, I have 3 children B-10, B8, G5. We both work full time away from the home.
I have practiced the techniques you mentioned on and off for some time with varying degrees of success. When I do not, I tend to get swamped by her abuse and the situations I have described tend to happen (surprise surprise). When I do however, we tend to become distant, safe but distant. It is then that I have another problem that I am working on – my resentment closes in and I tend to remember all the instances from the past and how she has hurt me.
I tend to justify this to myself by saying “I will forgive and forget the past hurts once I have dealt with them” Unfortunately, this has involved getting my wife to sit down and listen to me detail the instances and express how I feel about them. This of course does not happen, and even if it did, she could probably not remember the time 8 years ago that she screamed and then gave me the silence treatment for 5 days because I put the tinned soup on the bottom shelf in the cupboard rather than the middle.
I still remember the issues and do not wish to dig up old partially resolved plans, - they were never actually discussed. I would do something, she would get angry then silent then life would resume as if nothing actually happened until the next trigger. I guess it is a bit like the cycle of DV. Even in the honeymoon phases, she would be passionate and want life to be “happy” and “fun”; I would be as cold as ice and not want to make hay while the sun shined. Besides that even if I did let my hair down and party a little, I would always be watching carefully as to try to prevent triggers during my so called spontaneity.
On another issue, I have looked at the web site for Steven Stosny and took the questioner on walking on egg shells. I answered nearly every question in the maximum direction. I have ordered his book through Amazon (he does not mail outside of the US). I note that he has an appendix to his book that deals with abusive women. This is the first reference to women that I have seen as most of the literature deals with men.
I have also reserved some of the other recommended books from my library that deals with emotional and verbal abuse (change the gender on most books and I get the general picture).
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 123
Member
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Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 123 |
Dear Kiras -
I am glad you have come back to visit your thread, and I hope that Stosny's book is helpful to you.
I am someone who is struggling with a marriage in which abuse plays a part - my H has been unfaithful, but it is his emotional abuse which I find most difficult to deal with and that has been a feature since the beginning of our relationship. I didn't recognize it as such until I came to this site in 2002, after his EAs. Stosny's book has helped me to understand the dynamics in our relationship, and also why all my attempts at trying to get help have failed. That's not to say that there is no hope. I still intend to give Stosny's book to my H, but I am still working with it myself, and my relationship with my H is at the moment in a sort of limbo - since his PA of 18 months ago, we have been separated in the same house, in other words, I totally withdrew from him to try to protect myself, to set boundaries, but not to divorce, in order to protect the children's family life. Withdrawing from him has helped me, although it is not a situation which I want to stay with permanently. I am not sure that withdrawing from him has made much difference to my H - I am looking for signs that he is recognizing his need to change and at the moment I don't see that - what I see is him wanting to give up rather than change. But he is an incredibly stubborn and proud man, and since being in control is the only way he knows how to survive, giving up control will be almost impossible for him. What is important for me at this point is that he treat me with respect. For a long time in our marriage, when he was rude to me, or was abusive, I exploded....naturally, being treated badly made me angry and I thought that I had to show my strength, and not "allow" him to treat me that way - I thought that the right way to respond was to put up a fight, that that would show him where the boundary was, and he would stop. That was misguided to say the least. Stosny explains why boundary setting doesn't work with abusive people - they don't recognize your right to set boundaries - but it is important for YOU to set the boundaries for yourself. I had a hard time doing that, but I'm learning. What I should have done was walked away - but for many reasons, I didn't think that was the right thing to do at the time. Anyway, I am still here in this marriage, and trying to deal with it.
Although my H is not verbally abusive on a regular basis like your W, he has been physically and verbally explosive. Physically for no reason - like your wife, punishing me for doing something "wrong". Verbally when he was involved with other women behind my back. The problem is that he is not ALWAYS this way - it is hard for others to believe that I actually love him and see the person that he can be underneath this - Stosny is the only person I have read who addresses this with compassion....a lot of people do not understand that the abusive person is not a monster, he/she is another person, but one with a spectrum of personal problems that he/she cannot deal with, which are having a terrible effect on the ones they are close to. Most people do not understand the depth of guilt that the abused partner feels, and comments like "Why can't you just LEAVE this person?!" simply make you feel worse....
But some of these people can be helped. Stosny's program is the most successful program in the United States. Recognizing the treatment your wife is dishing out as abuse is a first step...coming up with strategies to deal with her abusive behaviour is the next step after that....then working on recovering your self-worth as a person comes next - "Removing the Thorns from your Heart" as Stosny calls it...you work on you, and she will have to notice that you have changed, whether that provokes a good reaction in her or a bad, is her choice, but you WILL change....and that can only be a good thing for you and your children.
BTW, I can relate to the laundry thing - ever since my H was unfaithful, I have made him do his own laundry - he washes it, and hangs it out on the line. He has got used to this, but is sometimes still resentful....I don't talk with him about it because it would allow him an opportunity to explode...I just refuse to do his laundry and he has to do it. But he can be emotionally abusive without saying much...the other day, I had hung up the whites...some of his stuff was out there, too, and it started to rain, so I brought it all in, folded it damp in the laundry basket so it could go out the next day. The next day, he started hanging his stuff out. He comes into the living room with his white T-shirt in his hand - "what's this?" he asks....there was a tiny yellow spot on it. "Looks like bird pee to me." "Bird pee?!" "Mm-hmmm...I think so, I didn't see it..." "You didn't see it." And he walks away. He walks outside, and he shakes his head in disgust. See, he hardly has to say anything, but by the whole way he is behaving, working fast and furiously - (see how hard I'm working and no-one is helping me, I'm doing something I shouldn't have to do...you took my shirt off the line and didn't see that the bird had made a mess of it), and the way he HAS to show me what he found, the way that he walks away without saying anything, and no thanks for taking the rest of his stuff off the line...he has told me that he is angry with me for screwing up - he doesn't have to shout at me or call me names, he doesn't have to say anything really, he just has to walk away shaking his head in disgust that I didn't see the bird pee. I recognise this because I've seen how he relates to his own father. His own father didn't have to say a word, but my H and his mother would know that he was mad, just by the way he turned his head or tipped his chin, or sighed to himself in disgust. Maybe some people don't call this abuse, but it's the withdrawal of affection in punishment for doing something wrong. I get what FaithfulWifeCJ said about not being able to do something wrong without being punished for it in some way.
It's a long process....good luck.
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