Hi Pep,

If you've got a few, please check my ongoing saga here:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...art=11&vc=1

Page 11, near the bottom - right after we spoke last. Sorry I got a bit long-winded after that - my crazy mind goes into overdrive after a crisis.

The other day we spoke about moving from withdrawal to conflict. Well as you'll see in what happened, XH drew me into conflict.

I've been feeling kind of discouraged about it, but having thought about what you told me, and seeing what happened... tell me if you think this incident may have been positive, please.

XH drew me into conflict (regarding taking the kids to see his GF on a 4000-mile road trip). I said no, he tried to pick a fight but I didn't engage. He left in a huff.

That was Sunday. Yesterday (Monday) I sent him an email as an attempt to make peace, I did express how he'd hurt my feelings and pointed out that his accusations were unfounded, but did so in a very tactful fashion - using "I" statements etc.

I also pointed out that I have been friendly and supportive, gave him a safe place to express his feelings, offered help when he needed it etc.

When he responded, he stated that he didn't agree with my decision, and his spewing was lashing out in anger (he owned it), and apologized for it. I did not ask for an apology, I simply stated that my feelings were hurt.

We're back to negotiating things regarding the business/kids' vacation and some time off for me.

It kind of happened unexpectedly - he initiated the convo/fight attempt over the vacation issue, which has been on the back burner for the last month... but IMO I handled it well.

Does this type of exchange fall into the realm of what you were suggesting in your advice to me?

I think regardless I've shown him that I've changed my "tactics" insofar as how I deal with disagreements. I don't want to fight, and I told him that I've learned that most conflicts can be resolved with careful consideration.

It's my hope that he will see that *I* have changed for the better. I didn't get drawn into a fight. I didn't drag GF's name into things, except to inform him that our kids don't like her (which my DS confirmed to him a second time after our "discussion".)

He's going on this vacation - alone. I'm sort of hoping that all that drive time will give him lots of time to think-particularly on the long ride home.

Any thoughts/suggestions for this and going forward would be appreciated. It wasn't exactly planned - but I think I applied your notions of keeping it "safe" for him.

Your advice was well-timed, because while I think I'd have handled things more or less the same anyway, your wisdom just before that helped me consider *how* I dealt with it when it happened.

Whatcha think?

Thanks for all your help!

JinGA

YES

be CERTAIN he feels the conflict was productive and not nasty

read up
study

POJA

and become a POJA Goddess

use POJA as a Plan A tactic

I will revisit that section as soon as I get back from my errands. I posted a few more thoughts on the positives that came out of our conflict in my thread - sometimes sleeping on what seems to be crummy situation, can shed new light on it.

Heading out to pick up a few things including the Father's Day gift that DD picked out for him. He may have omitted to do the same for me, but I'm not going to be petty either <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

JinGA

on this discussion HERE (many pages into it)

I give my best shot at my interpretation of POJA as I learned it from that particular Harley book

see if you find anything useful there

Well from his point of view the conflict was nasty because

1) He didn't "win".

2) He lost his cool.

However, in the end it *was* productive, IMO because it was resolved. He didn't "win" but he acknowledged his outburst, owned it and apologized for it, and I offered a safe place for that - I didn't rub it in, didn't carry on a fight...

So depending on how *he* sees it, he may have seen it as productive.

He did "win" insofar as he asked and I agreed to alternate vacation time with the kids (which was always in the offering in the first place).

Compromise.... that wins I think.

JinGA

which is why I think you need a deeper understanding of POJA

withdrawl = death to feelings

stay away from withdrawl

conflict with POJA = closeness and respect

this is an assumption on your part

and

quite possibly a DJ

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Not intended to be a DJ. And I never put it to him that way. I acknowledged to him that I understood he was angry and hurt by my decision.

In that "he didn't win" - just meant that he went to war with me (or tried to) over an issue and I did not fold. I didn't make war - rather, I just kept calmly to my decision.

My statement *was* an assumption... because he expressed to me that he did not agree with my decision - ergo.

However, as I said - when I approached him by email to make peace over the conflict, I do think we resolved it as best we could.

Heading over to read about POJA again.

JinGA

just pointing out potential pitfalls my dear .... I WANT your success !

I know you do - that's why I'm paging you <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Reading right now - I kinda drifted to the section on, "Can one spouse save a marriage?"

FWIW, I may point out things here, that I wouldn't say to XH, such as "he didn't win"... or other possible DJ. I try to be specific if it's a "vent" on my part (HERE) versus how I would behave to him directly. Not trying to be hypocritical at all - just interjecting my own thoughts as it helps me process them *without* actively DJ'ing or LB'ing.

For what it's worth as it applies to what I've just read (and I have a lot more reading to do, including your thread linked...) The example of what happened Sunday/Monday...

XH made demands, that I could not/would not agree to enthusiastically or otherwise (taking kids on road trip). That ended without any success - him having an AO, but I kept my composure (I didn't resort to LB except the ILY2 comment... which was my bad).

When I re-initiated contact, he made a request - started negotiating (ie: other vacation time with the kids) which I embraced enthusiastically. Win/win.

When I initiated negotiation concerning time off for me - he agreed, and I'll say it was enthusiastically for the most part, with a few reservations. When he stated his concerns, I offered solutions. So we have a tentative agreement on that (if it works with everybody's schedule). Win/win.

I think the vacation issue is probably one of the touchiest issues we've had to deal with in a long time (since last year's vacation issue). We didn't handle that as well - however I did offer up a possible solution at that time, XH just declined to take me up on it for various reasons.

Compared to that issue, most, if not all of the other issues that we encounter, are a lot less volatile (or potentially volatile). I'm going to go back to reading more about POJA now and I'm sure I'll have more questions. However I think I can put these concepts to work quite well going forward.

If XH is thusfar willing to accept negotiation (without knowing about all the articles here, etc.) I believe there is a good foundation to work with - and he can possibly learn from me if I do this well, yes?

A lot of what I've seen here, is "contagious". If one spouse makes that first step towards working positively together, the other one usually follows, without their even realizing it at times. Think so?

JinGA

YES !!!!!!!!!!!!

especially men will follow .... they are less complicated than we ladies

It's amazing that matters of the heart are so... ummm scientific.

From all that I've read, with a few exceptions, if you follow what Dr. Harley has written, inevitably the WS comes around. Exceptions being folks with substance addictions, personality disorders etc... but "normal" folk seem to be able to follow this like a road map to an ultimate destination.

My XH does have depression - untreated/undiagnosed during the M, but managed now with meds. I do think he's struggling at times now (who wouldn't with all he has on his plate) but from what I've witnessed, he's handling his current situation a LOT better than he did when we were going down the pipe. Of course there was more at stake with us too.

I'm reading the thread you linked. I actually saw it the other day when it came to the top of the board - I did not read it then in its entirety but I am plowing through it now.

The thoughts on sacrifice are interesting - particularly since in Plan A, the spouse working the plan is almost required (is required) to sacrifice his/her EN while attempting to meet WS' EN.

While I understand how this applies to POJA - that all decisions should be mutually agreeable - thus eliminating sacrifice, it does seem that there is a place for sacrifice in the MB concepts, albeit short term ones. Does that make sense?

In other words, I'm willing to forego some of my EN at this point, and I am attempting to fill as many EN of my XH as he will allow at this time, but I wouldn't expect to return to a relationship on those terms. The "means to the end" of Plan A is to fill those EN while not expecting my own to be filled, and as XH feels safer, he begins to fill my EN without really even thinking much about it.

Does that make sense? He's not filling *all* my EN right now (and I haven't asked or expected him to) but he has filled some inadvertently. I'm doing my best to be aware of his EN and fill them as I am able - sort of the opposite to a vicious circle - a loving circle. It goes around, it comes around. Be nice, receive nice...

JinGA

you are in a bit of a different position because ~~~> divorded already !

but USE the info to your best advantage

Yep - but as it's been stated before, a lot of the same psychology still applies. It's just harder to turn the Titanic around post-divorce than it is ante-divorce.

Ironically though, for the most part, we're getting along much better than we did ante-divorce. Monday's email exchange/negotiation is proof positive of that. I don't think we were capable of that sort of thing for a long time.

I'm reading that thread - moving from the renter/buyer/freeloader stuff into the POJA stuff now.

I think at heart I'm a Buyer, but I've delved into the renter mode (and possibly even the freeloader mode at times!). Trying to consider myself as it applies to all this - I think I'm trying to move back into Buyer mode.

I think XH is a Buyer at heart, but he's devolved too, to Renter, to Freeloader. I think he's currently a Renter involved with a Freeloader. I think he has spent considerable time as a Freeloader too - at various points in the M.

That thread is a good read...I'm still plowing through it - on page 10 now, taking breaks to check the board and do other stuff <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

JinGA

that is EXCELLENT

Let's break it down, shall we? For my benefit...

Renters believe Our relationship is temporary. You may be right for me today and wrong for me tomorrow.

Never got that sense from him, even during the bad times. Although he was complacent and unhappy, he didn't give me the impression he'd walk out - and although he had an EA - which knocked him down a peg or two - in the end the Buyer rose to the top.

I think his depression and the behaviors that sprung up from that (which he acknowledges now), prevented him from paying the mortgage <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Buyers believe We are together for life.

I do believe we both felt this way. I devolved for a while, apparently so did he, but I think that's a part of our core beliefs and possibly why he is still with GF because the little bit of Buyer left in him won't let that go.

I know that may sound a bit convoluted - but that's how I'm seeing it and feel free to get a 2x4.

Renters believe Our relationship should be fair. What I get should balance what I give.

I think we've both been guilty of this at various times, when Takers have been allowed to run amok. However...

Buyers believe We both contribute whatever it takes to make our relationship successful.

I know speaking for myself, that more aptly describes how I felt, and what I tried for a very long time. I think I just didn't know the right way to go about it - no POJA...now I'm learning.

Renters believe As needs change, the relationship may end if needs are difficult to meet.

At the end of the M, I was guilty of this too. However until I lost hope in the situation, this does reflect how I felt, not sure about XH - I can't make assumptions there, because I'm not entirely sure if he didn't want to end the M because of inconvenience, or the right reasons. The jury is still out on that one.

Buyers believe As needs change, we will make adjustments to meet new needs.

I don't even think I gave that one a whole lot of thought but if one follows that a Buyer will do what it takes, this one should follow right along with that.

Renters believe Criticism may prompt me to change if it's worthwhile for me to do so.

I don't think either of us reacted well to criticism, and we were both bad at times with dishing it out. Big LB on both our parts. Working on that one myself now.

Buyers believe Criticism indicates a need for change.

I would like to think that I react well to constructive criticism. XH did sometimes, didn't others - depended on his state of mind. Also, if I wasn't as tactful as I should have been, that didn't work, and no wonder...

Renters believe Sacrifice is reasonable as long as it's fair.

I struggle with this one, because I do believe that *some* sacrifice is to be expected in any relationship. However I can see where it can become a slippery slope and I think this statement serves to remind us of that.

Buyers believe Sacrifice is dangerous and to be avoided.

In the context of POJA - absolutely.

Renters believe Short-term fixes are fine.

I think we both wanted long-term solutions - we just weren't properly educated to find them.

Buyers believe long-term solutions are necessary.

Amen.

JinGA

it's interesting stuff, isn't it?

with new knowledge/tools and practice ... you've got a shot

I hope so. But even if it doesn't work out between us (and please don't think that's negative thinking!)... I am working on ME.

That's win/win.

JinGA <---heading to work