I've already got it all planned out for the first time some "boy" comes over to take my DD out...

I will be sitting at my work table wearing my oldest wifebeater tanktop There will be several guns in various stages of dress sitting around me. The lights are low. There will be a glass of whiskey within reach and the scent of cigar smoke will waft gently through the still humid air.

The "boy" approaches me as I continue to oil the slide of one particularly nasty looking EBG (Evil Black Gun). My DS will be sitting on a stool behind me slowly polishing a rather large knife. He will not take his eyes off of this interloper.

I say to the boy, "Hello Robbie. It IS Robbie, isn't it?"

"Um... It's Jason sir..."

"Have a seat Robbie. Robbie... Look out that back door and tell me what you see."

"Um... A backyard?"

"That's right Robbie. And it's all mine. I also own a shovel and a wheelbarrow. Do you understand what I'm saying to you Robbie?"

"Yessir..."

"Good! You kids have a good time and I'll see you at 9."

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

If it's Texas, everyone has a gun.
It still disturbs me to walk into office buildings which have signs saying no guns allowed. As if it is thinkable?

I tell my girls that they can't date until they are 25. The younger one keeps saying 16.
They've watched X's GF's daughter avoid them for the last 4 years (now 18) because "she's always with her BF". Dating at 14 and avoiding family is not allowed in my book.

Well, I hope that you understood that my little scenario was purely tongue-in-cheek. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Okay, she met with her A today. I asked her how it went and she assured me that the temp orders from her end will say exactly what she promised. Her A didn't talk her out of anything, though he did try and recommend against giving me Wed.

I don't think that I will be getting much more than what she offered. At least my A's legal assistant seems to think so. Texas sucks for dads.

What else should I ask for? So far, I'm going to add first right of refusal to babysit, no movement out of the county, and I'd like to add no unmarried members of the opposite sex in the home with the kids present. What are some other small things that I can ask for that will protect the interests of myself and my children?

Oh, and I will ask for a built-in reassessment after a few months. We talked for a few minutes and she grudgingly said that we could revisit visitation at a later date. She might have been shining me on, or she might be sincere. Either way, I don't want to let the possibility just slip by the wayside.

Okay, you need to think about asking for life insurance, with a trust for the children as beneficiary. You should have something like this anyway. . Each of you carries a policy and has a trust set up with the trustees you name.

I don't think a judge will really go for the no members of the opposite sex. You could stipulate no members sleeping over.... But, remember, this could be in effect for a very long time if things don't work out. If you end up in a long distance relationship, having someone spend the night in the guest bedroom may be very convenient. Just something to consider. Additionally, you may have single friends of the opposite sex who are just friends. Can you imagine not being able to have someone over for a drink in three years?

You need to give some thought to holidays and days when school is off. Some spouses end up having use up all their vacation days covering things like Columbus Day, MLK Jr. Day, and teacher in-service days. These add up in a big way when the children are in grade school.

Then, there's the driving. This is so mundane. If you live more than 10 minutes apart, you need to work out picking up and dropping off the chidlren. I personally do a lot of that type of driving, but then I want my ex around my house as little as possible. Even so, it gets wearing. Some people have it so that when each spouse picks up the kids, i.e. when it's your turn to have the children, you pick them up. When she gets them back, she drives over and fetches them.

That's all I can think of.

Just keep in mind, it's easy to back away and be more flexible than the agreement. It's difficult to insist on your rights if the agreement is too loose or flexible.

Green - All good suggestions. The no members of the opposite sex is actually not uncommon. I actually got the idea from my best friend. It's actually in the final decree between him and his XW.

As for the driving, we're going to have to keep that loose for now. At least until I find a new job near downtown again. Hopefully soon...

We have discussed holidays to an extent, but I will talk to my A about the minor ones. I think the insurance would get hashed out in the final decree. Until then, we're still legally married so she is the beneficiary for any of that anyway.

Thanks for the feedback.

My ex and I have the "no members of the opposite sex sleep over" clause in our divorce degree...I think it's great, even though it "penalizes" me far more than him because I've got the kids 24/7. Ex lives on the west coast now, and I'm in the mid-south.

Don't forget about copays, insurance, weddings, college, cars/insurance/gas, sports. My girls were older when we went through this, and the bills GO UP as they get older. Also, should one of you ever be forced/chose to relocate, who pays for airfare should be considered as well as direct flights.

Also, as a teacher, please stay on top of the school. Request 2 of everything from day one---in writing. Emails are great---stay in touch weekly.

Good luck,

UpandRunning
D 11/05;
2 DD's (16 and 14)
1 DS (forever 3) who watches from above

Thanks up - Again, all of that detailed stuff would get spelled out in the final decree and much of it is boilerplate. I will take care of individual financial stuff while I have the kids (buying them clothes, taking them places, etc...), and I will keep them on my insurance. However, their college savings (529 account) will have to come from the CS. Same thing with all of their daycare, camp, and school fees.

Copays are shared equally between us. Neither of us will relocate away. Put another way, I choose NOT to ever relocate away from them. She CANNOT relocate out of the county. That would be a violation of the decree.

Great advice on the school thing. I will be sure to ask for copies of everything. Especially since we've worked so hard to get DD into that special program.

Don't be so sure Seabird. If you are both working parents, and you both need work-related childcare, why should your wife have to pay for it all. Doesn't work in my state. Work-related childcare is paid based on % salary contribution and is outside of CS.
CS is intended to cover regular living expenses, the cost of maintianing a household, food, necessitities. What about all the extras?
My X won't pay for a single school field trip or school supplies. Why would a dad think those things are covered by CS? What happens when the expensive trips arise and the trip cost is far more than CS? My CS is so small, it will happen.

My atty said the No other person rule is ignored in my state, so don't even bother to put it in.

You think all this small stuff will be addressed, but if you don't address it, it won't be. Vacation were left out of our decree and we had to go back and do them with a mediator later. I don't sweat small holidays, but a friend's X does, and it makes it quite a pain.

Do you know how much summer camp costs? Why would you X be willing to pay for it all? Or, don't you care about the quality of the place/person who is watching your children.

Read MhDh, there are great ideas, but there are still many issues like those above you haven't addressed.
Ours states vacation is not to be used to keep one parent from the kids. Now, I've learned that X can call it vacation and dump the kids with his girlfriend for a week (while he lies to me and tells me his mother is watching them). IS that time speant with the kids? Be explicit.

As I have come to learn, the CS payment structure is pretty straight forward and inflexible here. There is no pro-rating for custody arrangements outside of SPO. I pay the same 25% whether I get the kids for the minimum period all the way up to 49% of their time. The only variables taken into account are when salaries of individual parents rise above $6K/mo, or if the parent paying the CS is responsible for another child in the system. Not to that parent's advantage btw...

The long and the short of it is this; if my W wants me to pay for exactly half of their expenses, then it's because I have been awarded exactly half of their time. This setup is HER choice and under HER control and there are certain consequences to HER choices. She's choosing to D, and she's choosing to seek more time with the children than 50-50. What I pay works both ways. If we were to separate today, she'd be taking a very slight net loss. But after my DD starts elementary school and our expenses for daycare/daycamp are gone, she comes out well ahead. Should I be allowed a refund of any CS money that doesn't get used by them for the month? Of course not! I understand that the expenses are figured in aggregate. Because she has chosen to be the primary (I would take that role if offered), it is HER responsibility to budget accordingly for the year. To understand that monthly surpluses should be banked for the kids use at a later date when their expenses go up (like when school is out and they go back into some kind of daycare/daycamp).

All I can say beyond that is that my kids will never go without anything they need. Just because they might not get it from me via CS through their mother, doesn't mean they won't get it.


It's in there already. My W added it voluntarily in an effort to assuage my concerns about an affair. It is actually pretty common in this state and is actually pretty enforceable. My best friend took his XW to the mat for violating it, and she was in danger of losing custody. She still might. She's also sleeping with two other guys besides her so-called boyfriend. Both extras are married as well. She's a very classy lady.


Most holidays are being addressed. My W is Jewish, so she is asking for her primary big holidays; Yom Kippur and Roshashanna. I am getting the first half of every Xmas break and every Easter weekend including Good Friday, except when it interferes with Passover. In that case, she gets the kids for the evening, but returns them to me for the overnight.


Please don't make assumptions on my motivations newly. I understand that you have had troubling experiences with your XH. I will never punish my children for the perceived sins of their mother.


Reading it now. Actually my W is racing through it faster than I am (she's been home for the past two days).

I think that would violate the first right of refusal regarding babysitting, but I will address it with my attorney when I see him on Monday. I will be deeper into the book and I should have a broader range of questions.

As always, I really do appreciate your feedback and I apologize if I am unduly defensive. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I still don't think you can get her to pay all of the day care expenses from CS. Some states wrap it up in CS, but not all.
I'm guessing you want your X to work, and contribute to the kids care. Childcare is needed for that. And it doesn't end at school. Then before and afterschool care begin until the kids are about 12 years old.
My state shows this item separately

Once again, there is no extra provision allowing for additional money for daycare or schooling outside of CS in my case. I will confirm it with my lawyer, but CS is what she's asking for, and CS is what she will get.

The actual facts in our case just so happen to happen to add up anyway. The money she is getting from CS will more than pay for half of my children's monthly expenses, INCLUDING daycare. It's a salient point that keeps getting overlooked in this conversation I think.

Should I pay for half of the babysitting fees when my W decides she wants a night out and I'm unavailable?

And just to put as fine a point on it as possible, here is actual CS statute for Texas regarding datcare:


Not real specific or ironclad. Just means that it will be considered. Now I suppose that my W could try and sue for additional money, but as I said before, the mandated CS payments already cover half of all the kid's monthly expenses including daycare.

WHY SHOULD SHE GET MORE????? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

She shouldn't really, but under certain circumstances, she can. The statute reads similarly in my state.

Full time daycare can eat up a CS payment in no time at all, leaving little or nothing remaining for what it is truly intended for. Food, clothing and shelter.

On the rare occasion that the X utilized daycare, she paid for it.

If extraordinary expenditures came up we would split the cost. For example, a couple of the school field trips ran into the hundreds of dollars. Out of state stuff. I had no problem with splitting the cost. This was not in our decree. I didn't have to. I just did. It made sense.

If my kid needs a new pair of shoes, some clothes, I take her out shopping. I don't have to, I want to. I don't tell DD that her mom will have to take her.

Try doing damage control when the kids mother tells them that they can't go to camp or dance classes or something because daddy won't help pay for it. It will happen, believe me. Some things you have to stand firm on, others, it will just make sense to offer some additional financial assistance.

Try to avoid any extras or ambiguities in your decree. CS should cover just about everything. There shouldn't be any language about splitting the cost of anything. You don't know what the 'cost' will be.

My X wanted me to pay for half of DD's irish dancing classes and all that they entail. Uhhhh, NO! All that they entail included out of state competitions (travel, overnight accommodations), ethnic dance costumes (cost in the hundreds), eventual trip(s) to Ireland. Can you say $$$$$?

Avoid blank check statements of any kind!

ba - I agree with everything you say. As I have already said, I have no intention of preventing my kids from having everything that they need or even most things that they want (within reason).

The situation is ironic because it we will be more motivated to POJA than when we were together. If my W wants the involve the kids in something that she can't or won't pay for herself, she will HAVE to consult and negotiate with me. This wasn't always the case.

Just spoke to my attorney. First of all, thanks to everyone here for all of their advice and suggestions. I was able to touch on most of it with him and we got a lot of things knocked out.

Secondly, I feel I should clarify w/re to my conversation with newly. I have learned that Texas can and will interpret the CS payments quite liberally concerning daycare and that they can try and go after extra money for that above and beyond the formula.

HOWEVER... It has to be within reason and in consideration of the kids' actual expenses. IOW, my W would realistically have to show a need to that extra amount money. That CS really does only take care of clothes, food and shelter with nothing left over for daycare or school. I know what their monthly expenses are and I know that my CS payments will cover more than half; especially after DD starts regular school this August.

Anyway, thanks again for all of the help and support.

Truly, I don't think any person here tries to screw their X with respect to expenses, but many people don't realize how expensive it is to raise kids and maintain two households.
I truly believe that the cost of work related childcare should be a shared expense. I also don't believe a parent should hire a sitter during their time with the children, and would not advocate making the other parent pay for it. The right of first refusal should always be used.

Seabird, I know you are angry that you are forced into this situation. I wish I could give my children the life they deserve to have. I try to do all I can to give them a normal life and provide what we would have provided in an intact family. For example, BA109's Irish dance lessons above. If your family supported this activity when together, and your child grew up believing they would be continuing in this activity, why hurt the child by no longer supporting it? I know things get expensive, but I don't think I'll ever understand that type of thinking.

Seabird, in your case, the children are young and haven't started actitivies as much. But what do you wish for them? What will you support? Did you picture beaming at your daughter's dance recitals? Support them with time and money even beyond the agreement. Your reward will be in your relationship with them.

I can't take my X's stance and refuse them. They are children and should be allowed to play sports, gymnastics, etc. My children demand alot from me because they get no support from their father. At a young age, they have learned to expect so little of him. Too bad it took me a long time to learn that lesson.

Remember when the legal stuff is over, be flexible and cooperative as you move into the next phase of your relationship with your family.

newly - I understand, and that really is my intent as well. However it has been the experience of many that once lawyers get involved, they will sometimes encourage their clients to take a "Go for it all!" attitude.

I am of the opinion that all of the children's expenses should be shared across the board because that is what is in their best interests. Again, all I ask is that I not be lumped into the actions and behaviors of others' specific experiences. I am nobody else's XH. Fair enough?

And again, I know what my kids' monthly expenses are. I know what I spend and what my W spends, and what we spend together. Why should I spend more now than what they actually require? This is what I don't understand.

Finally, and this is an important point to consider... If my W were to try and get me to split all of their daycare on top of the mandated CS, it would effectively send me into the poorhouse. I would no longer be able to afford the marital home, and would have to get a small two BR apartment in a not-so-nice area. Any extras from me would go away as would any help or assistance w/re to extra-curricular activities. Basically, their quality of life while with me would suffer. Is that fair to them or me? Would they understand that daddy can't do for them because he has to give all of his money to mommy? I doubt it. All they would see is that living with daddy is a struggle, while living with mommy is much nicer. Nicer home, more stuff to do, etc...

There are two sides to this equation newly.

I'm not lumping you, just giving you a different perspective. And certain statements that you've written gnaw at me, like you are trying to punish your X.

Most studies show that a divorced mom's standard of living falls much more than a divorced dad's. I suspect that is because they sacrifice for the children.
As you children age, their expenses will increase. Keep that in mind.

Really? Can you tell me which ones? I'd like to know. I have tried to be very careful to separate my general griping and venting from actually doing anything hurtful or obstructive.


Bear in mind that there are a lot of variables involved here though. First of all, my W actually makes a little more money than I do. Not a LOT more - about $3K a year. But she's also older than I am and she entered the workforce at a younger age, so her retirement (403B and 401K) is larger than mine. If we were to divide that up as CP (as is my right), I'd come out ahead.

I am also aware that the children's expenses will increase, but so will my CS payments as I move up the corporate food chain. Matter of fact, her attorney calculated my pay incorrectly and they're requesting more CS than what I am technically on the hook for. However, I will pay it to keep from antagonizing my W. And I already agreed with my attorney that if I get a job that I just interviewed for, I will voluntarily increase my CS to match instead of making my W spend the time and effort in filing for a modification in the order.

This is a legal ploy to keep up the antagonism. Check, check and recheck everything in the final document (that is, if you get in advance - another legal ploy).
Whatever is left out or unclear is fair game to be revisited.