Welcome to MB, Snicks.

I've been in your shoes. I was the unhappy one, I was not involved in an affair, and I just couldn't take my XH's actions (and inactions) anymore. We seaparated, I filed, I followed through.

Know what? HUGE MISTAKE. I would give anything to reconcile with him now - but presently he's not interested (but I'm not giving up hope just yet.

I'm not suggesting that our situations are exactly the same... HOWEVER... if I'd hit the point of no return, such as you seem to be at now, and IF my XH had come to this site or similar, and made a conscious effort to make things right, I'd have given it another shot.

I know about the "too little too late" and I think when my XH finally did make changes, I was still too angry to want to see them. He never came to me to reconcile as such - he probably didn't feel safe to do so, but he did try to do things to show me what he'd done - but I refused to see.

Now, nearly 3 years after we separated and nearly 20 months after the divorce, we've both had other relationships that were disasterous (I admit my disaster, he's not quite done with his disaster just yet)... I feel that God has touched my heart and turned it back to love for my XH. He's not there yet - he may never be - I may have burned that bridge for good - but I am working Plan A to try to fill his emotional needs and *show* him that I have changed and become a more mature, confident and better person in the hopes that he'll see that and be attracted back to it.

I know that what I'm telling you may not strike a chord in you just now. That's OK. I'm very pleased that you are here, and while I would like to see your marriage survive this because I think it would be best for the children, the journey of healing is yours to make of it, and regardless of the outcome, this *is* a wonderful place of healing.

Yes, until now I've only read your husband's side of the story - but what I do understand is that he loves you with all his heart. He owns his mistakes and failings, and he sounds committed to changing for the better. We all make mistakes and we all fail, but it takes a big person to own all that and work to make it better.

Divorce sucks... it REALLY sucks.

I heard a lot of myself in what you posted initially - how you've sacrificed for everyone else and now it's *your* turn - girl, do I *hear* that - however what I've learned is that you *can* have it all - your individuality, your sense of idenity and all those other things - *within* your marriage - and know what? All those things are 100 times *better* when you have them in a marriage - particularly when you have a partner that is actively working on his own junk.

I would have given *anything* and *everything* if my husband had taken the initiative to save things, the way your husband has.

You may not think so right now, but you are a heck of a lucky woman.

In loving support,

JinGA

Snicks,

Please do not be offended by the suggestion of a possible affair. It would be irresponsible of an 'MBer' not to point out that the possibility exists, especially knowing what we know about affairs.

It would also be foolish of Seabird not to rule out an affair. Simply asking you is not good enough. Cheaters lie. A spouse can often times be oblivious to an affair occurring right under their nose.

The methods used to uncover a possible affair can be covert and invasive but a spouse has to know what they are dealing with. Having a friend drive by the house is a simplistic means of gathering such information.

If there IS an affair, we are dealing with an entirely different animal than a spouse that has reached the end of her rope.

If there is not an affair, great. That is a major hurdle that the two of you do not have to deal with. Hurray!

I referred to you as 'the enemy' in a very realistic sense and to awaken Seabird to the fact that he is a defendant in a lawsuit for divorce, property division and child custody. I do not retract that. He dare not let his guard down. Where divorce court is concerned, you are the opposition.

Where marital recovery is concerned, you are of course, his wife and I would not refer to you as the enemy. I am sorry either of you are posting here under these circumstances. I wish you both the best, regardless of the outcome.

Snicks,

Welcome. Thank you for being here.

I'm doing what I advise Seabird not to do...looking into your future. I am hazarding my own fear of hypocrisy.

I think your marriage is worth it.

I'm thinking of your children ten years from now. Their questions. Maybe ones like, "Did you really try to save your marriage, Mom?" Read all the books, find a great marriage counselor, do exercises, learn to speak your truth, define and enforce boundaries around yourself, know how to have a great marriage?

I'm there, thinking of this in the eyes of your 15-year-old daughter, who wants to tell she's done with you today. She's had enough of your actions and she's leaving. She's drawing the line like you did. She gave all she had and you wouldn't change. You were supposed to protect her, not hurt her, be her safe zone. She feels disrespected, worn out with all the giving and giving into you. You're the problem.

Now, this is from my experience with three teenage sons. My own stuff come back to look me full in the face. For beings who cannot remember to do their chores day to day, they sure remember enough facts of my actions to bring them out to air as they push to be independent, find their separate selves and they do it the way they learned...which was from me. And their father. And we were in one house, married.

I heard from their mouthes my phrase, "I'm done." I'm not painting a horrible future picture to scare you--rather, one I've experienced. I, like the others here, relate very well to what you have experienced...the sacrifices, the over-doing, the crying for years, and not speaking.

Until I saw all my choices in each of those, I couldn't example to my children their own choices. Their own power and limits.

I've learned a lot in these last three years...how to live badly, from fear; and how to live in abundance, from love. What I know is that divorce is never off the table. It is the final boundary enforcement. It comes after 15 other ones, progressive and predetermined ones, and if you do not take those with full awareness and clarity, then you cannot say, "I did my part well and fully."

I believe that's what Jin and many others have run smack into when they divorce too quickly. And others like GG here who did take them know differently. Makes all the difference for you, for the rest of your life and your children's lives.

As our partners changed into our enemies, so they can become our partners again. Up to us to do our half...our half is as important as their half. And I see your partner doing his half with all he is, studying, learning, questing and working on himself and his half of the marriage. Learning to love himself and to change his actions and beliefs. To act from love, not react from fear.

If you think you've reached the end of your rope...look at all the choices you made in letting out the line...not for blame...for your power, your own patterns...so that in ten years, someone you love with all your heart may not be cutting you out of their lives because they reached the end of their rope with you.

I believe this is why Dr. Harley believes that even divorce should be POJA'd...to be healthy. Each partner enthusiastically owning their half of the divorce. So that divorce isn't a last resort to have power over after feeling powerless for years...because in marriage, we have equal power, whether we feel it or not.

LA

Guys, I want to thank everyone for dropping in here and offering their words. I don't know if Snicks will continue to read or contribute. I was as surprised as everyone else here to see her posts. Thank you again for trying to make her feel welcome in this place.

You know that you may have to be cautious about what you write here, but it may be good that she looked at some of the posts. Many states are more apt to give 50/50 custody, and if she didn't realize that, some of the posts could have opened her eyes.

Keep walking the high road. It's tough, but it is right for your family. All my posts about flexibility go for both parties. The children should be placed first, not the parents or their differences.

Children first. Yes. Every night I pray that they come out the other end of this dark tunnel with as little emotional pain as possible.

As for being cautious about what I write... I don't think that I've written anything here that I wouldn't have said out loud if the circumstances had permitted it.

I wonder what you all think of the perspective "it's MY turn" re: wanting to pursue personal happiness, specifically divorce. That has hit me hugely...I think I don't believe we GET a turn until we raise the children who didn't have a choice in the matter. I think my decisions about my job and the way I live my life are to be made FOR them and after they are gone THEN it's "my turn." Until then I think I am responsible to deal with for better or worse and make a happy home with my willing spouse. What do you guys think?

I tend to agree. I gave up my corporate job to stay home with my kids, and I babysat others' kids to keep us financially afloat. I also worked part-time evenings and weekends to support us. Thinking back - I wonder if all that time away didn't contribute to the unraveling of my M?

Still - staying home with the kids while they were young was a priority for both of us, and I was able to do that.

I still work long hours now that my kids are teens, but I am 1/2 mile away from home, and when they were too young to stay alone they came to work with me.

So yes - there are choices and even sacrifices one must make for the welfare of one's children. Now that they are older and more independent, I can make a bit of "me time" without feeling guilty about it.

Once they are grown and gone - then it will be all "me time" (dreading an empty nest)... and if I'm still alone - well then it will be 100% "me time".

JinGA

From a personal perspective, the "it's MY turn" is not something to wait to tackle until the kids are older. I think I've read Dr. Harley talk about this with the giver and the taker. "It's MY turn" is the taker unleashed after the giver finally unchains it. I think it is really essential especially while we have kids to learn to balance our giver and taker in an honest way. In a way that lets us be who we are, without getting twisted up in the distortions we have when we listen to only the giver and only the taker. It is important for our kids that we learn how to do this to the best of our ability, so that we can model healthy adult behavior for them.

This is what Dr. Harley talks about when he talks about bringing your taker to the table. To feel frustrated enough to consider splitting up a family home because one person is dissatisfied with what they negotiated for is understandable. But the reality is that none of those negotiations is set in stone, and things can be renegotiated in ways that both partners are enthusiastic about. Where the kids can grow up in a two-parent home.

Seabird, I'm about to be really disrespectful towards you here, asking you to do something that I've already asked you. Please call the Harleys. Your wife said that she doesn't understand how we see this great guy, because all she sees is how unresponsive you can be to her concerns. That is a valid concern, and the Harleys can give you all a plan that addresses that, as well.

I have to agree with EO. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I spent years as a giver, to my DH and to my kids. Sometimes the line was blurry as to if my giving was for the kids or my DH. Seven days of homemade meals (and we only eat "out" about 5 times a year). I love cooking, but this was burnout capacity. Cleaning (and I hate cleaning). The eternal laundry needs of young kids. I viewed my DH as someone who wasn't contributing (and worse), because he did not give to my selfless degree. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I wasn't being fair to him, or myself. DH had recreation w/o me b/c I didn't have time for recreation (you know, shoes to buy... childcare resources to review... allergy information to collect). How many books on FUN with KIDS do I have, all thrown in the corner for when I find the time... (certainly the children must know washing dishes was a priority)... I was BORING and self centered in most of my relationships (M, friends, work, parents) b/c I was feeling very empty and sad.

The problem is, I let myself be all about work: ALL work and no fun. I think some people delight in the daily grind, but I am not that person. I was angry b/c life was passing by. I didn't give myself the time to discover if I liked things like sewing or birdwatching. I hadn't read a good book in years. I didn't even spare myself the time to exercise regularly (with a high metabolism, that worked for a while, but mentally this wasn't good). And in my head, it was all my DH's fault. No, it wasn't really, but I resented how easily he could set the daily grind aside to do something he truly enjoyed. This resentment and judgement was trashing our M, albeit completely unintentionally. It's hard to be lovable when you think your spouse is a jerk. Likewise when you are the "jerk". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

When I stopped letting life pass me by, started being in charge of my own happiness, what a difference! Making time for myself was a much needed shot of excitement. Not that I'm going sky-diving anytime soon, but a trip to NYC with a girlfriend and a blossoming obsession with fragrant plants, I'm more balanced. I'm a better, more patient, fun-loving mom AND W. And I genuinely think that perspective is helpful for our kids. I don't want my boys subconsiously looking for that DW who will be a doormat. I want each to find someone who takes care of herself, is happy in her soul, and that happiness spills out into the rest of her relationships.

The proof is in the pudding: DH kissed me this morning before he left for work. I can't remember the last time he did that. And not only do I appreciate the gesture, it gave me warm fuzzies. How nice! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I don't get the idea even of "it my turn." And any one who thinks divorce will provide that is very wrong. Taking turns means someone is sitting out, giving up what he or she wants while someone else gets it. Then, when the turn is over, the other one sits out.

GG, to me "my turn" is a balancing of giver and taker. Which we need as happy human beings, not just to be a H or W (so to me, D has nothing to do with it. If you neglect yourself when M'ed, you'll do it when D'ed.). Then again, our takers can get out of control too, which is another reason I don't usually see D as the answer: you never get the chance to learn balance.

My DH is enthusiastic about football. I'm not. But I know it will make him happy if I go to a game with him. As long as I'm not completely averse to the idea of going to the game, I negotiate something I would like (shopping/dinner out/ a concert/ etc) to sweeten the deal, and this way we "take turns" getting our needs met. As a giving/resenting personality, I rely on taking turns to justify giving myself a break. Otherwise, I'll have a break-down instead. BTDT.

You know, I think we are digressing (sorry SB), perhaps we should take this to another thread...

Snicks,

It is not selfish for you to want to be happy. Being an wife and a mother should not be a unhappy experience. It should be your turn, I completely agree. It should should be your turn every day, as well as your H's turn and your children's turn. What goes around should come around.

I completely understand the 'it's my turn' concept. One should not have to give up their turn at happiness simply because they opted to get married and raise a family. I don't think it's good for kids to be raised in an 'it's all about me' atmosphere. You are not only parents, you are married and the marriage needs to be nutured as much, if not more than the children. Happiness is a key ingredient to any marriage.

I understand that you've gone through this before with Seabird and that it's difficult if not impossible to believe that his change in behavior is sincere or whether it would be long lived should you give the marriage another chance. If he has neglected his obligations as a H and a father then this is the bed that he has made.

It sucks to be taken for granted. BTDT. It is Seabird's burden to prove his sincerity, if that's what he chooses. It is your burden to decide whether to open your heart to more of the same, or possibly a changed man.

You know him better than anyone. Our perception of Seabird is based only on what he posts. He 'appears' to be taking positive (baby) steps towards becoming a better father, husband and all around decent guy.

Worth a closer look? You decide.

In an attempt at complete openness and honesty, I will admit Snicks has told me before that I talk a good game. Perhaps I do. Perhaps this contributes to her cynicism. That I can sound very convincing, yet fail to follow through.

My own mother of all people, once told me that she thinks I should have gone into sales. I think she meant it as a compliment.

I had a session with my IC today. He asked me if I still want reconciliation. I reaffirmed that my goal is to become a better me. My hope is that one day, after enough time has past (8 months? 12 months? 12 years?), Snicks will see and believe in that better me. How she chooses to react to it, I won't speculate, guess or hope for. Just that she's sees it and believes it for the truth that it is.

ears - Please feel free to brainstorm all you want in this thread. Your last few posts have been helpful to me in gaining a possible understanding and perspective. I won't speak for Snicks, but much of what you have written is very similar to some things that I heard from her.

Snicks - I've read all of your posts though I haven't been able to read all of the responses simply for lack of time at the moment (so sorry if I contradict anyone, not intentional.) Please take all of our responses with a grain of the seasoning of your choice. We are not professionals nor do we maintain a prefessional separation between our 'stuff' and other people's 'stuff' when we respond. Please realize we are all here to learn and heal and improve. We do that both by giving and receiving advice and perspective. Sometimes it is helpful. Sometimes it is not.

I heard you saying that your H's side of the story is not the only side there is. That I do not doubt. Many spouses have been so belittled, neglected and abused that they finally and with great difficulty decide that they must get out of their abusive marriage or die. Of the two, I feel you getting away from your H is a much healthier and wiser choice then your mental, spiritual and maybe even physical death. I don't know what you feel like but I understand at least that much about people in your situation. Are there other choices? Sure. Any that you find viable at this point? Probably not. Very understandable.

I want you to know that your response to this situation is totally valid and understandable. None of us know what it has been like to be you and live your life. How can we tell you that what you are doing is wrong? We can't. Was you husband a total jerk to you? Did he devalue and abuse and neglect you to the point where he not only lost any love you felt for him but actually became someone you hated to be around? It sounds like this is what your are saying, this is how you feel, and I believe that this has been your reality as best you can describe it.

I can tell you that though none of us have met you, there are people here who care about you... that may seem odd. There are people who want you to have what you want, who want you to be happy, though we couldn't pick you out of a line up or recognize you at the bus stop. We care just as much about your happiness and safety as we do about your husband's. If you let us, some of us could offer some useful perspectives and expereinces. If you let us, some of us could possilby help you better understand and get what it is you really want. If nothing else that may be simply knowing you have been heard and understood and your choices and feelings have been seen as valid and reasonable by an outside observer.

BWS

Seabird, I'll be honest, I still feel guided by my temporary feelings instead of my core values when I feel like someone is hurting me, and I've told them, and they don't stop. I do have progressive boundary enforcements, and I know that they have a bigger purpose in my life than just getting through the evening or the hour. But I do find myself resenting that I have to be constantly vigilant, that I can't trust my H among others to look out for me, especially once I've been O&H with them.

I go into what Al Turtle calls lizard mode, where I'm like a two year old, thinking solely in terms of never and always. All I can think is that it's ALWAYS going to be like this. That I'm NEVER going to have ONE evening EVER where I get a break from my H's CONSTANT poking fun at me and ridiculing me. I should probably move this to my own thread, lol. Forgetting that we had nice times earlier in the week and will likely have them later in the week, too. Which is why it helps to remind myself to keep my focus in the present.

I encourage you to read Dr. harley's article on disrespectful judgments. In a nutshell, we make judgments because it means we don't have to negotiate for what we want. How can you simplify that negotiation process for your wife, so she'll have reason to see that it can work? Have you read the guidelines for successful negotiation?

ears - I don't quite understand what you mean by progressive boundaries? Does that mean that they are dynamic? Moving? Is this a good thing, as in adaptable", or a bad thing, as in difficult to enforce?

I have read some of Al Turtle's description the The Lizard. Seems very similar to the concept of the inner child to me. A sort of primordial sense of selfishness and survival. Is that right?

Thanks for recommending the article on DJs. I actually have read it a few times and I agree that it is a tactic to avoid negotiation. One of my AH-HA! moments was when I realized that I was using DJs to try and control Snicks' behavior and actions. An example: I would make derisive and ugly comments about her choices of entertainment. I wouldn't direct the comments at her specifically, but at her choices. "You're watching that??? I hate that show, those people are all so depraved! Ugh!". Then I'd walk out of the room.

I have learned that those sorts of comments can be just as hurtful and insulting as if I had directed them right to her. Furthermore, I was using them as a passive aggressive way to try and control her actions. To get her to do what I thought she should be doing, or not doing. To get her to conform to my beliefs and values. I had no respect for her choices or her preferences.

I didn't really like what I learned about myself very much.

Here's the thing about disrespectful judgments: If you take elimminating them too far, you can avoid reality. My ex was a bully. He got what he wanted through fear. Now, for me to even thinnk such a think would have been a very big disprectful judgment. But, if I never thought "Ah ha! B storms and yells, and gets scary because that's his way of getting what he wants" I would have been playing right into his hands. I would have continued to think that I had done something very wrong to bring this on myself.

Seabird, I don't really think you're in any danger of going so far as I did. But, I know there are a lot of people who read and never post. Just imagine this one "My spouse is irresponsible with money." DJ or fact?

GG,

I understand what you're saying...when B storms and yells, that crosses your boundary. You don't allow yourself to storm and yell, and when others do, then you enforce your boundary. There's no DJ in that. None required. Not in your code. The his whys aren't relevant. Reality is his actions. They cross your code.

"My spouse has acted irresponsibly with money" is not a DJ. Yours would be unless the action were being taken right as the statement were being made.

That's my take.


Seabird,

I wanted to give you applause for seeing your previous actions, identifying them, tracing them...and to ask you to go one more step further with the scenario you shared. You wanted to get her to do something or stop her from doing something because...

Find out why you didn't want to respect her choices and preferences...those beliefs you have and where they came from.

That next step relieves the not liking that about yourself very much. Reasonable and honorable to not like the actions you took...not reasonable or honorable to believe those actions are part of who you really are.

Yeah, the journey continues...hence, the questions.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

LA

LA,

Yes, tracing them back and finding the root causes. I don't know if I'm all the way back to the beginning of it all yet. But to answer your question I can say that the cause I have identified so far, is fear. Fear of the opinions of others. Fear that my actions would be ridiculed by those who are smarter or better educated or more successful. That the sort of behaviors illustrated and portrayed in the entertainment choices Snicks made, might reflect badly on me. Especially with my family.

Here's part of the irony... My family loves Snicks and has never judged her unfairly. My actions and pre-actions weren't ever necessary, and I was behaving without any real rationale. Snicks has a fun-loving and carefree demeanor about her. People, men and women, are naturally attracted to her personality. It's one of the things that I fell in love with myself, but I think I was always a bit more reserved and careful. I am afraid that my DJing worked to stifle that gregariousness that she has always been known for. I have only come to realize and recognize all of this recently and I feel a tremendous amount of guilt for it.

This is what I mean when I say that I was driven by fear. Does that make sense?