Thx for your support Bob, glad to hear from you again.

Am thinking about going to plan B when DD's break for the summer hols as we have parents evenings, sports days and DD's birthday between now and then which will at least give WH more chances of seeing what he will be missing.

I have an excellent MC who I saw myself and helped me to get through those dark, desperate early days. I don't know if she knows anything about MB but her principles were similar in that she believed that you had to work on yourself to have any chance of getting a WS to fall back in love and that you had to try, try and try again before walking away from a M. And of course NC was imperitive. She works with the children of broken Ms so knows how badly it all affects them.

Tarnsey, if you have an MC you trust, take no notice of anything anyone here tells you.

I for one speak from a knowledge of Dr Harley's methods and my own experience.

When you have two set of advisers when they disagree, you are left with confusion.

Dr H has some pretty strident opinions about what to do in affair sits, that many MCs do not share.

I am a lay person, I won't advise against a pro, especially one you got value from. As my Dad used to say " a man with a clock always knows the time. A man with TWO clocks is never quite sure" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

All blessings !

Tarnsey,

There are plenty of 'finding people' web services in the UK. I had a lot of success with www.192.com & one other (I can't remember the name but will dig it out if you're interested); with 192.com you buy search credits, with the other you buy a period (I got 1 month). I spent about £40 in all & found everyhting I wanted to know. I can help if you get stuck.

b.p.m.

Bob, am no longer seeing MC (WH only saw her twice) as we both felt that I had got to the point where I could cope on my own should WH not come back and that the self improvements I'd made would continue to grow. She is available for me to see on my own or with WH should he decide to work on M but for now I'm working on the MB principles so please feel free to advise me through this quagmire!

BPM, thx for the info, will check out 192.com and would appreciate it v much if you could find the name of the other website.

thx tarnsy

The other website was http://www.onlinesearches.info/

I bought the 1 month unlimited search for £13.75 which gives you "Unlimited searches of the electoral roll by full name, forename, surname or address, including unlimited searches of the Birth, Death and Marriage records".

I used 192 to find OM, onlinesearches to find his family; cross referenced back to 192 to confirm addresses & get telephone numbers (also www.bt.com). Google & yahoo.co.uk were also useful. Shout me back if you need any help with this.

Good luck.

b.p.m.

Don't know whether I should send this email to WH or not, it is in response to one from him asking if he could have our DD's this weekend as a family member was coming home but I had already made arrangements for us to visit a relative.

Please don't say that you can't see them. You know that i will never stop you from seeing them. Their happiness is the most important thing to me and that includes seeing their dad. You have to understand that I just cannot allow them to meet the ow. This would be of no benefit to them, they don't want to meet her and I can't condone the fact that you are now living together by allowing them to visit your current abode. This is the wrong message to send them and I know that you know that in your heart.

I love you with all my heart and I don't know how you can throw away 19yrs so easily. The pain that your relationship with an ow causes me is indescribable especially after you said that you wanted to come home just a few weeks ago. I really believed you when you said that but instead I had my heart broken again and I don't know how much more I can take. The more I think about it the more I think that I can't take any more of your lies and the easiest thing to do would be to walk away and start being a b*tch.

But I know that we are meant to be together and that this whole situation is just a test of our love and that one day we'll be able to look back at this time and know that we had to go through it for our love to grow and blossom. Marriages that survive extra marital relationships are the strongest there are and I'm sure that soon you will see for yourself that we can be one of those relationships.

It has been nearly eight months since you left your family in search of greener grass and during that time I have felt every emotion possible towards you but never once did I lose my love for you. Despite all the hurt and the tears I have continued to know that you are the love of my life and that the most important thing in the world is to fight to keep our family together.

I could easily say to you that that's it now, I've had enough and turn my back on any thoughts of reconciliation because I know that would be the easier option. Recovering a marriage is one of the hardest things that anyone can do but it would be well worth the struggle. Our daughters would be happy again and so would we. Just the thought that we could put the smiles back on their faces would make the hard work worthwhile.

I have proved to myself that I don't need you to survive but I know now that I want you more than I ever knew or cared to admit to even to myself. But the fact is that I don't want to have to survive without you. I respect the fact that you believed my love for you had died but as I have explained I was trying to get you to demonstrate your love for me instead of acting like you didn't care whether I was there or not. I know I did the wrong thing and I take responsibilty for what I did but I wasn't alone in doing the wrong thing. You have seen how different I am from the person you left and those changes are only going to get more pronounced as time goes by. I have taken professional advice and have listened carefully to what has been said and put those words of wisdom into practice. I want you to be the one who benefits from the changes I have made so that I can make up for all the times when I wasn't the wife I should have been to you.

If you look back at the times we spent together during April and May I'm sure you'll remember that I was willing to do anything to make you happy. I listened to you as you spoke about your family problems, I admired you when you told me about the business, I tried to support you when you ended your extra marital relationship and I was more than happy to have SF with you and fulfill one of your fantasies. I wasn't pretending when I did those things, I wanted nothing more than to make you happy. I was the person I used to be before the stresses of life overwhelmed me and forced me into the dark, solitary place that I found myself in. Things can be like that again if you give them the chance.

Well, I've probably said too much (unusually for me!) but I needed to let you know what you risk losing forever and to tell you again how much you mean to me and to our daughters. The D***** I know will do the right thing by his family I just hope that he hasn't gone forever.


Please feel free to tell me not to send this or to change parts of it as I know that I'm feeling particularly emotional at the moment and am probably not thinking clearly!

Tarnsy

dont send it.It is way too long.

I will respond with more in a little while, but I wanted to stop you first before you send it.

Tarnsey

Neediness is sickening to WS.

Groveling is sickening to a WS.

Both reinforce the bad rewrite of history and facts required for them to self-justify their affair.

Your email is saccharine, desperate and needy IMO.
Its time to find some dignity, girl. Affair-crap is only deep enough to drown you if you cringe in it.

Write him something like :

" WH

I want what is best for our children, and that means a restored family. Even while they don't have that right now, I do not see how it is even slightly in their best interests to introduce them to OW now.

Please accede to my wishes that you see our children but that you do not force them to meet OW.

I want to have a restored marriage with you, but not at the cost of my dignity or the children's happiness.

Please reconsider your actions and do what you think is right.

I will do the same.

Love

tarnsey "

No sentiment, no neediness, no bucket required.

In the tens of couples I have advised here and the hundreds I have read here I have never seen a recovery spring from such desperate groveling. Dignity with conciliation, while being the best spouse you can sustainably be is what attracts spouses back.

All blessings

Read the Book “Divorce Busters” by Michele Weiner-Davis. Specifically, the section about “Do’s and Don’ts” and the “180”. This book will tell you why you shouldn’t send long, emotional, heart-wrenching messages!

I know where you are coming from – we all do! I sent a few letters to my WxH at first, before I read any of the books. Each time, I spent hours pouring my heart out, certain that I was finally going to write the words that would melt his heart and send him rushing back. I also included pictures of us smiling together, and even a wedding picture!!
I remember the first letter. I had been awake all night. I had it in the envelope, ready to go. I left home early and drove to his work, so I could be there, waiting as he drove in. I handed him the envelope, smiled, and said “I just wanted you to read that”. In response he rolled his eyes and said “thanks”

I left there feeling even worse! Later that day he emailed me to say “thanks for the letter – I am sure that we really loved each other a long time ago, but that was back then, and I don’t feel that way any more. You will be fine. You will find someone else someday, and be happy – just like me.”

That was not the response I was looking for at all.

After I started reading the various books, I realized that I was doing a lot of the wrong things. When you write these letters, and continue to profess your love, all you do is remind him that he used to love you, but he doesn’t anymore (or so he says). When you send him the wedding pictures, another reminder that things have changed for the worse. When you tell him how heart broken you are, he just feels bad for you. And many times, when they feel guilty, and see how hurt you are, they decide to hurry up and file for the D, thinking that once the D is final, everyone will be better off. You will be hurt now, but after the D you will get over it, move on, and be ok. And frankly, parts of your letter allude to that very thing. When you say that you realize now you can live without him just fine – my first thought was “he will encourage her to move on, to get the divorce over with, because he doesn’t want her to hurt any longer”.

Also – your WH is probably not sleeping well right now, and not thinking clearly. any time you correspond with him, you need to keep your message short and simple.

Finally, watch out for statements like this:



You have told him that your love has not died. Leave it at that. You recognize that there are some things you should have done different, you are making those changes in yourself, so leave that subject alone now. It never sounds good to say “I know I was wrong – but so are you” and “I was not alone in doing the wrong thing!”

If you have something to apologize for, just apologize, and be done with it. Quit hashing it up, and quite saying “yeah, but you were bad too” there is no doubt that he made mistakes – he slept with another woman! Lets not dwell on the past.

Now that I have picked apart your letter, let me say that you have the right intentions. He should appreciate it! But he just won’t – not yet. Continue to write all your feelings down like this. It is good to get them out in the open. But keep this is your journal.

I have more to share – but I cam going to send a separate reply for that.

Hang in there.

Ok, Bobs post is much shorter than mine - and more to the point!

Listen to him - this is a mans point of view.

I would change it just a little....(but BobPure is better at this than me cause I tend to be a little more hardened, I think)

I see a lot of hope for your M. I really do. But here is the thing – it is going to take time. It must be terribly frustrating, since he did come back, quite recently! I would imagine that it makes you feel like you have to hurry up and grab on quick, while the momentum is still there.

But the truth is – this A needs to completely run its course. As painful as it is – you need him to truly go through all of the stages, so that later, when you do reconcile, he will never come back to you and say ‘It was a mistake to get back together – I miss the OW, and I need to find her” or, even worse, you don’t want him to ever find OW#2. he needs to fully go through this ordeal, so that he never wants to do it again.

So think of the things that you know are true:

1. Very few A’s last for more than 2 years. Only about 3%.
2. You have all ready made some amazing changes in yourself. That is a good thing. So keep up the good work. Do not talk about it – just do it.
3. You have a long history with him. No one else can ever have that. You are the wife of his youth, the mother of his children. That is worth a lot. There is no OW in the world that will ever have the simple R you two have had. Any other woman he finds will always be the “second woman”. Every other R will have to deal with the “first wife, the mother of his children” If he marries someone else, they will be the “OW” at all family functions. You can’t tell him this – he will not listen. But he is going to figure out himself in time.

There is a post on here from Ark that says “BS – just be still” and that definatly applies to you. It sucks! It will not be easy! But the truth is that his A will not last. And then – the question will be: will you still take him back?

Have you gotten any more info on the OW yet??

Thx everyone for your words of wisdom. I think I knew that what I was putting into words was not the right thing to do but I was feeling especially emotional last night as DD was 2 hours late coming home for another school trip and I ended up tm WH to tell him. He called me back 15 mins later after I had found out that the coach had just turned up and our call was rather short and abrupt as I can't speak to him when I know that he is at his new house and OW is probably there.

I shall be sure to try to find the book you recommended, WOF, and the post too. Thx for realising where I am coming from, you seem to know exactly how I'm feeling as I'm sure all other BS out there do.

I am in the process of putting into writing a schedule for when WH can see DD's and shall post it here before I give it to WH so that you all can advise me on what to change.

As for OW, I checked out the sites BPM told me about but the nearest match turned out to be the one where you need to pay £150 to retrieve the information! Can no way afford that at the mo, but the other site is another option but I don't think it has as much info. A friend of a friend lives in the same road that WH and OW have moved to so maybe able to use that to my advantage.

Will post as soon as I have completed letter to WH and thx again for all your support everyone.

Tarnsy

The £150 is for an archive search, unless you're desperate to know where she used to live it's not much use. Have you tried www.bt.com. There's always the electoral roll down at the library & it's free. What are you trying to find out about OW ??

Must dash - I'll check back later.

Ok, I have decided to include WH visitation schedule in with reply to last email but would this be too much for his fogged out brain to take in I wonder! Should I email or hand him a paper copy?

WH,

So that there is no confusion I have decided to put in writing a schedule for when you see the girls. As you have already asked that you not have them the weekend of 7th/8th July so that you can go to Silverstone and that the next week is DD's party, I suggest that we start this schedule from the following week.

Schedule goes here.

You will see that other than sleeping over, not much has changed and you know the resaons why this is not agreeable to myself or DD's. Please continue to see the girls but do not try to enforce them to meet OW.

To reiterate, this is not to "punish"anyone, simply to protect out daughters from anymore trauma. I will always be their mother as you will always be their father, but as statistically your extra marital relationship has a less than 5% chance of lasting, I do not believe that the emotional upset of meeting the OW can in anyway be of benefit to them.

I want what is best for our children and I think anyone would agree that that is to have a restored family with you but not at the cost of DD's happiness and emotional wellbeing or my dignity.

Please reconsider your actions and do what you know is right. I will do the same,

Love Tarnsy

Should I copy this to anyone do you think, his sister perhaps so that they can see that I'm not trying to stop WH from seeing DD's?

Ok, I have decided to include WH visitation schedule in with reply to last email but would this be too much for his fogged out brain to take in I wonder! Should I email or hand him a paper copy?

WH,

So that there is no confusion I have decided to put in writing a schedule for when you see the girls. As you have already asked that you not have them the weekend of 7th/8th July so that you can go to Silverstone and that the next week is DD's party, I suggest that we start this schedule from the following week.

Schedule goes here.

You will see that other than sleeping over, not much has changed and you know the resaons why this is not agreeable to myself or DD's. Please continue to see the girls but do not try to enforce them to meet the OW.

To reiterate, this is not to "punish"anyone, simply to protect out daughters from anymore trauma. I will always be their mother as you will always be their father, but as statistically your extra marital relationship has a less than 5% chance of lasting, I do not believe that the emotional upset of meeting the OW can in anyway be of benefit to them.

I want what is best for our children and I think anyone would agree that that is to have a restored family with you but not at the cost of DD's happiness and emotional wellbeing or my dignity.

Please reconsider your actions and do what you know is right. I will do the same,

Love Tarnsy


Should I copy this to someone, his sister perhaps so that they can see that I'm not trying to stop WH from seeing DD's?

Tarnsey,

Quick post from me, a long time member, but not active poster, but none of your regular posters seem to be here.... wait to send this please.

The line that tries to educate him about his affair ending is bad... it will put him on the defensive and cause him to want to prove you wrong. Can you change it to something like your counsler or someone recommend waiting for both of you to introduce new people into the childrens life due to the termoil of seperation and divorce?

Best of luck

To reiterate, this is not to "punish"anyone, simply to protect out daughters from anymore trauma. I will always be their mother as you will always be their father, but as statistically your extra marital relationship has a less than 5% chance of lasting, I do not believe that the emotional upset of meeting the OW can in anyway be of benefit to them.

agreed. Delete this bit. It will be useful for defence in a court if you are called to defend why you do not think OW should meet your kids, but do not try to teach your WH.

He utterly believes at this moment that they are star crossed soulmates like romeo and juliet.


"Unique" just like every other sick affair relationship.

Ok, to confirm, I cut the bit from "i will always be their mother" etc. to the next paragraph?

Would a written letter be better than an email so that he can't just hit delete, and should I copy in a member of his family as I don't know what he is saying to them about all this.

I was hoping some other parents would chime in, I hope you can wait to send for just a bit and get some further feedback. I don't meen to be nit picky, just objective.

The line about your dignity seems a little wrong for a WS ears too. I would just focus on what is best for the children. Having an intact family and not being confused by meeting other people while you are still married.