good luck, atanimpass!

I see now that you all stick together and none of you really read what is written. This WAS NOT really about the bike but ABOUT the agreement that HE suggested and letting him out of it. My marriage is NOT equal to a bike.

You don't even care WHY leaving right now is otq. It is NOT a vow, it is a situation beyond either of our control that neither of us caused.

You choose to ingnore the fact that he is a step ABOVE AA, seeing SPECIALISTS that deal in adiction who HAVE NOT labeled him an alcoholic. I refuse to go into detail about his adictive behaviors NYDB.

Would you suggest a spouse leave a person being treated for bi-polar or any other mental disorder?

As stated, no drinks for 10 days - voluntarially. He NEVER hid his drinking.

I've also asked "are you a DR?" show me your credentials that prove any of you are better then a specialist. Another point ignored.

You say leaving isn't a punishment. What is it than? You don't think he will be punished by it, and not just him every member of this family.

You so coldly, calously, carelessly and easily suggest the division of a family. You spend hours on here ignoring your husband, how long before he feels ignored and wanders again?

No advice is better than bad advice. You've tried and convicted him as a pathalogical lier without all the facts. You've twisted my words and questions to fit in a sceniaro that suits your advice. I think its time for you all to stop and think.

I wonder just how many marriages you've dealt the final blow that could have been saved. You conscience not mine.

I came here for advice and help. All I got was snarky coments and told its not worth it.

You-re all a bunch of pretendsious, self-rightous, egotistical *******edit**** who think they know more than the professionals.

ML, I don't need or want your luck. I will work with my husband and the professionals and leave you amatures out of it.

A, you came here for help, and the caring people here are trying to help you - but I don't think you are "hearing" them as they intended. I'm not a long-timer here, so I don't presume to know things - but I can tell you without a doubt that those who are offering suggestions are doing so based upon their own experiences and the knowledge that Dr. Harley has imparted to them.


Your opening post in this thread asked the question if you should stick to the agreed-upon "punishment". I think what people are trying to tell you is that this approach is not conducive to an adult relationship. If your child doesn't eat his vegetables, take his Lego blocks away. Adultery and saving your marriage is a bigger thing than this, and the concern was that this approach trivializes the problem.

Your WH is an adult - and it is being gently suggested that you treat him like one.


Neither of you has caused your present situation? You are stating that you are not accountable for what you have been doing, and your WH is not accountable for what he has been doing. So who is "to blame"?


AA is a peer group. Specialists are specialists. If he's going to an addiction specialist and he's not addicted, I respectfully submit that you might be wasting your money. However if he IS addicted, and is seeing an addiction specialist, this *IS* a good thing. It sounds a little bit to me like you may be in denial about the reality of his problem.


If their personal safety or security is threatened, YES. And I'm speaking from DIRECT experience here. Sometimes people go through the motions to get their spouse off their backs, but if they aren't convinced that they have a problem and they need help, it is just going through the motions. You can be supportive from a distance if your safety is at risk. When the person reaches a point where their IC or doctor deems them safe to be around, then that's another story - but when somebody with such a disorder or addiction is doing risky or dangerous behavior, you need to keep yourself safe. Sometimes hospitalization of the addict or sufferer is the only way.


I am glad he has 10 days of sobriety. That is a very positive step in the right direction. It *is* one day at a time. However this early on, the risk of relapse is very significant.


Are you a doctor? You came here to a peer-to-peer self-help site. Not sure what you expected, but this is what you get. People are reaching out to try to help, and you are fighting back. Why not just try to open your mind to what is being said here? You can choose to take the advice, or choose to ignore it - you're in control of that. Fighting against the world right now is not going to help your situation.


How about looking at it this way: Leaving is self-preservation for YOU. It will prevent your WH from damaging you further and eroding the love you have left for him. It will give him a cold hard look at reality - IMO that's a gift, not a punishment.


Wow - do you make everything that personal? This tells me that you've got some junk to deal with yourself. I'm not trying to be mean here - but you've come here for help, help has been offered and you're reacting with hostility because you didn't hear what you wanted to hear - and I'm not even sure just what you wanted to hear. You are angry with your WH, you aren't sure how to deal with it, and so you're lashing out at everyone. Not good. I understand your pain, but being mad at the world won't fix things. The first thing IMO that you need to do is take a big breath, and take a second look at what's being said here - but look at it with a more open mind. You might be surprised.


OK... he's perfect. None of the issues that apply to a typical WS apply here. So why are you here again?


Are we reading the same forums? From what I've read, I have seen some seemingly hopeless situations, pulled out of the dumper and into recovery. No they don't all get saved - but I think the amount of marriages that are rebuilt from the info and help here, is freaking incredible.


I didn't see that anywhere. What I did see was helpful advice to get the ball rolling to start the problem solving. The alcoholism is first - nothing can be fixed until that's addressed. It may take some tough love on your part to get there. If you're content to continue to enable the situation to continue, so you can continue on catching your WH in lies and adultery, have at it. I think the good folks here are trying to help you help yourself, so that things can get better than they are. A certain amount of that is up to your spouse. You can't "fix" him, but you can also refuse to enable thim to be destructive. There's the rub. At the end of the day, if he's not willing or able to do that, it may well be a moot point. However while you're trying to figure that out, the advice here will help YOU address your issues, better yourself, and prepare yourself for either the recovery of your marriage, or for a new start if your WH doesn't have it in him to fix himself. Pretty powerful stuff, IMO.


Well with that kind of attitude, who wouldn't want to help you?! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> I've been called worse! (Sticks and stones...)


YOU GO GIRL!

JinGA

Atan, I will address this point, though. Doctors do not treat or diagnose addicts, they send them to AA or NA because they are unqualified to treat them. They can dry them out, but that is about all they can do. Doctors and therapists come to AA themselves for help with their own addictions. So, if you husband's so-called "addiction specialists" are not sending him to AA for help, they are QUACKS who are just taking his money.

As Gin-Ja stated, it sounds very much like you are in denial about your H's drinking problem. And maybe he is not an alcoholic. I doubt that, though, because normal drinkers do not have any need to quit or see "addiction specialists." I hope that you take our advice and seek Alanon, because they can give you alot of guidance.

As far as seperation, Plan B is not cruel, but therapeutic for the betrayed spouse. Your H has now been carrying on his affair[s] for well over a year. Staying with him is dangerous to your mental health and only serves to enable him. It sounds to me like you have fallen into a pattern of enabling and my suggestions are probably a huge threat to that set up, which would explain your temper tantrum.

Either way, it is apparent you are not really here for opinions that don't serve your preconceived notions, but this really, really, really will be my - EDITED: NEXT TO last <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> post! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

edited to add: ok, so I lied!!

Only on my good days! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

p.s. I think you misspelled "pretendsious" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Atanimpass...what a rude little woman you are. ML is giving you good advice. I do not agree that AA is the ONLY way to help a drunk, but it has worked for countless numbers of people. If your H is happy with an addiction specialist, I would say continuing with him/her for right now is fine. Your H may or may not be an alcoholic...some things point to yes, others to no. But ML speaks to you with a good heart and experience and you repay her taking the time with you with rudeness.
Your question about the mc is weird. It does come across as his mommy deciding should I punish him or not. I agree that it is up to him ... or to POJA the bike... but not as a punishment.
I don't agree that Plan B should be implememnted just yet, but the logic to do so is pretty sound. I would have a conversation with his addiction specialist before making that decision. My experience with AA people is that they sometimes see an alcoholic even when none exists. I know more than a few ex-drunks that are in the program and they really have their objectivity regarding this totally askew. ML is a very good judge of this though and in as much as she is doing this having never seen or spoken to your H, you should give more credit to her words.
The best advice I can give you is to stop being so damn defensive. People are here to help.. if you don't want help....go away. If you do, try being quiet for a few minutes and listening.

And you asked if we are doctors or have better credentials than specialists....nope.... but YOU came to this ragtag bunch seeking advice... WE did not come to you.

MEDC, just to clarify, in matters of addictions, it is not doctors or "specialists" who treat them, but 12 Step groups. Those same professionals come to AA for help with their own addictions. They call us to sponsor their clients and take them to AA meetings. AA members go to treatment centers and hold meetings for their clients. They make them read the AA Big Book while they are in the hospital. So, there are no experts on addiction, except other addicts who know how to do it. And I also concur that AA is not the only way.

The reason that most counselors cannot treat addicts is because we are masters at manipulating them. This is why AA works.

And I do think that atimpass is in denial. It seems apparent to me that her H is an alcoholic, and I went back and found this previous post of hers:


This counselor said essentially the same thing as Dr. Harley, that one must get help for the addiction before he can do anything about the marriage. Unfortunately, this counselor didn't send him to AA.

It is also important to note that plan A is a DISASTER with a practicing alcoholic and should be avoided. [this is not my opinion, but Dr. Harleys professional opinion] The reason I think she should investigate Plan B is because it is well over a year since D-day and he has never stopped pursuing his affairs.

Did the bike have ANYTHING to do with the infidelity at all??? I don't know your story. But how does getting rid of the bike tie into his EA's?

Mel... AA(and other 12 step programs)are NOT the only option for alcoholics(even though going through those programs it is reasonable why people believe they are the only way). I know that AA routinely dismisses other avenues and their "graduates" (yes, I know no one ever graduates from AA) follow suit. But there are other options. I don't want to get into a debate about AA (or 12 steps programs) with you. It provides many a valuable service as I noted in my post. Their are experts in the field of addictions that have not been addicts themselves. Just like their are experts in the field of pedophilia that have not raped children.

As we are not here to debate the merits of one method vs. another, I will get away from this part of the discussion. I think you have given this person good advice... what she decides to do with it is up to her.

MEDC

MEDC, I agreed there are other options and there are. But doctors and "specialists" are not that option. The medical community admitted long ago they could not treat addictions, and sent them to AA and other 12 step groups. As I stated earlier, they come to our meetings to get help for themselves.

All of them???? And you know this how?

And no Mel, the whole medical community does not buy into 12 steps being the only way. Many do... not all.

As for the rest of your post Mel, I should know better to discuss the merits and qualifications of addiction specialists with an AA person. It's like trying to argue with a MB person that counselors other than the Harley's can actually help a marriage. My experience with AA is that it is rather "cultish" in the manner in which they defend 12 step programs. Yours is different. Again, I do not think it takes a recovered addict to help and addict. I understand why 12 steppers feel otherwise and don't wish to continue debating this since there is nothing to be gained here... and because I do not want to slam an organization that helps so many.

MEDC

Alright...I'm not only almost always the FIRST person to point out to ML when she's being a "rude, pretentious A-hole", I love doing so. I'm not the least bit afraid to raise that flag when its warranted.

I've gone over this thread three times now, and Mel has offered nothing but excellent advice and information to the poster. Mel is speaking from bitter experience, and there was not a single thing that I've seen that was an attack or vindictive in ANY of what Mel had to say.

Again, this coming from ME...think about it.

This poster seriously needs to calm down, quit taking this as some kind of personal vendetta against her, and start recognizing the value of the advice she's being given.

Sheesh!

EDITED TO ADD:

I don't know the value comparison between AA and an addiction specialist...I'm not getting into that debate, I don't know enough about it to chime in. I'm simply pointing out that the advice to fix the addiction issue before focusing on the marital issues is ON THE MONEY. And, I still don't get where the taking away his bike had anything to do with his infidelity. I can't see how one follows the other here. So what was the POINT of taking away his bike?

Growing up in an alcoholic home, this statement really struck me the wrong way.

I know that this statement is crap, even if you believe it with all your heart. And I hope you do not think that if true, it is a good thing.

Get yourself to Al-Anon. It will be the best thing you ever did for yourself, your husband and most importantly your children.

It takes two to deal with and repair a family living with the insideous disease of alcoholism, just like it takes two to beat and recover from an affair. And you have both things working against you, your marriage and your family.

Please get to Al-Anon.

MEDC, I can only go with what I KNOW works and what doesn't work. If you know of a better way than AA, then you should help Atan's H YOURSELF instead of slamming a program that DOES work. If you don't know of a better way, then I can't imagine what your purpose is with all this. The reason that the medical and legal community REFER people to AA is because it DOES work and I can't imagine why you would try to cast doubt on that. I don't think you would accuse them of being in a "cult."

Like I said, if you know of a better way, then now is the time to ante up, otherwise, this is all just a pointless diversion on a thread that had already entered the twilight zone.

Mel.. please lets have an honest discussion here... where did I slam AA. I repeatedly said they have done a lot of people a world of good. Is saying something is not the ONLY way slamming them????? If I said there are other approaches to saving a marriage... but that MB saves and helps many... is that slamming MB? No, Mel, it is complementing them while recognizing that there are other ways. In fact, the last line of my post here is that I do not want to slam an organization that helps so many. So, dear, it isn't me causing division here.

Mel, in fact if I thought someone was an alcoholic and they were either in denial or not getting treatment for it, I would recommend AA first and foremost. So, no slam to the organization... I just recognize that there are other ways and this person happens to be utilizing one that I believe is effective.

MEDC, you are the one who said there were "other avenues" and wanted to debate the wisdom of referring one to AA. [we have no idea what these "other avenues" are, of course] I believe you even went so far to call us a "cult."

This was all for referring a woman to AA and Alanon. It is not often that anyone condemns the wisdom of that advice, but this thread has been so wacked out I am no longer surprised by anything.

With that, I will take leave and go a "CULT" AA meeting at 5:00. [the "cult" that has helped me stay sober for 22 years]

sigh....................

"cultish" in the manner in which they defend the 12 step program as being the ONLY way to sobriety.

And as far as what works Mel, the poster mentioned something that I have seen that has merit... an addiction specialist. You dismissed it as having no value... that is where this debate began not because you recommended someone to AA. I have seen 1st hand that addiction specialists do in fact work. I have have also seen where AA has worked wonders... as well as some failures. Some doctors recommend AA to their pts... some even attend themselves. Others use a combination of therapy and programs.
My only contention is that people become very closed minded to other ways of treating issues... be it infidelity or sobriety.

Since you know so much about it, specifically the success record of "counselors," I will leave the thread in your capable hands, MEDC.