My WH and I were talking about forgivness- because I feel as if I have forgiven him and he feels I haven't. His reasoning is that forgiveness is getting over it- the offensive act that has been provided to you.

I feel forgiveness is no longer holding a failure against someone and treat them as though they did not fail. Okay- I can see where he says because I have occassion to become mad at him (couple times a month)

Okay- I do have moments when I get angry- mostly because I will start down that path of I can't believe he did this to us- blah blah- I get sad, then I get mad at him for his stupid actions. Therefore he feels I haven't forgiven him. My anger is not intended to punish him, it is grown from hurt. I do not hold his actions against him- I do not belittle him, treat him poorly etc.

I guess this started a discussion in our home of what is forgiveness. And I was wondering what is means to y'all.

Thanks
Amartini

Forgiveness is better defined by you, since his is impossible. Forgiving does not mean FORGETTING. You will never forget. You will always remember what he did and won't ever be the same. That doesn't mean that you won't reach a place of recovery where you no longer feel emotionally tied to this tragedy. You will.

Does your husband also know that it takes from 18 to 24 months to recover from adultery? You are SUPPOSED to feel angry and sad. That is a normal part of recovery. Adultery is as traumatic as being RAPED or the death of a child. It is probably the worst thing that will ever happen to you in your life, as defined by psychologist, Dr. Harley. Does your H know this?

Thanks for the reply. Yes he does realize that it will take some time. As well, I have been very clear with him about the possiblity of not ever being over the hurt he has caused me. I asked him, if by his definition of forgiveness if he could be happy in our marriage- if I am never able to get to his definition of forgiveness. He said that he would, and understands fully that he has caused a me a great deal of pain.

However, he does say that according to my definition of forgivness he can see how I feel I have forgiven him.

HI just starting thinking today- humm wonder if anyone has had a similar discussion or thought.

Thanks again
A

amartini, it seems he has confused forgiveness with FORGETTING; they are not the same thing. You have already forgiven him by not holding it against him and being willing to stay with him. But you can never forget. And that has nothing to do with forgiveness.

A-
Are you looking for him to do more, to show you that he is sorry? Are there situations that are triggering you, when you go off on a tangent... and then feel angry that he did not 'make it up to you'? I am just curious.

I think forgiveness, is accepting that something happened, but you choose to not dwell on THAT one thing. You choose to remember the person for who they are, normally. And you do not hold it over them.

That being said, I know how I am. If someone sincerely apologizes, I usually can let it go. But if they have NOT apologized, I have a tendency to not let it go, and I stew.

Maybe you need to try to make yourself get past the hurt. Chose to not dwell on it. I know that it is hard. I do not know your situation, so I am just throwing that out there....

amartini,

Forgiveness was a topic of discussion in DivorceCare.

Forgiveness is not:
A Feeling – it is a decision, an act of my will
Minimizing the offense
Condoning the other person's behavior
Trusting the other person
Letting the other person off the hook
Expecting an apology – an apology is not necessary for true forgiveness
Forgetting

Forgiveness is:
Life-changing
A decision only I can make – the feelings will catch up to the decision
Obeying God – ask God to make me willing to move to forgiveness
Freedom and release – I am right with God
A process – it comes in layers
Living in a higher realm
Unilateral - only depends on me; forgiveness takes one, reconciliation takes two
A reflection of my maturity – I am taking responsibility for my actions and attitudes


Maybe that helps.

Ml- I think you're right about the confusion. I did bring that up with him. He is very understanding and I think he feels with time it will get better- as with time my tears have lessened.

Sadmo- I am not longer wishing he could be in my painful shoes for a day - just to understand. He has sat through many hours of MC and has/ still is learning to express his feelings. Which has been very benefical to me. My anger- which is expressed and not in a demeaning way (at least I try not to), is not in the form of a tangent. I do not displace my anger to another situation. It is always about the affair and the pain I am in. I am usually telling him I am angry with him bc he did it- or it makes me mad.

My situation- now: married 14yrs- 3 kids- 14y, 8y and 2 years. EA started 9-07 PA started aroun 10-26-07 ended 11-30-07. I was worn down from a baby that needed round the clock care for the first 4- 5 months of his life. I worked part-time- and he came with me to the office one day a week and I conducted field work and paper work around my families schedule. I resented my WH freedom to do as he wanted fromt the time he left for work 7 am to he came home about 8 pm. And was hurt bc his family was being rude to me and he could not recognize it. I became a big LB as he did. He was working in an old college girlfriends parents neigborhood, wondered what was going on with her, called her, met for lunch. And there you have it. She knew he was married and did it anyway (what morals). It was short lived- when compared to many out there. I felt us drifting apart and sat down and talked with him about, he agreed we had problems, he said he decided we could live as "roomates"- I told him that was not acceptable. That was not what I want from a marriage nor do I want to portray this to my three boys. I asked if there was someone he was involved with- he said no. He works midnights on wednesday's, I checked his phone Thursday AM, there was a call to someone at 3 am. I took my cell and called it and asked for husband, OW stumbled and said I had wrong number. Walked in woke husband up asked who the number was- told me we need to talk- I took his phone and kids to school (left baby with him so he couldnt leave) He confessed. I told him he had to choose be in the marriage with me as a spouse or he could leave. He had until I picked the kids up at 3 pm. At this point he went to counseling (I'd been asking for sometime), we started 2 x's a week, weekly, bimonthly, and now no longer. We did this for about five to six months. He maintains no contact, he has been honest, he has made sincere apologies, he is plugged back in the family, I am doing things for myself (quit job, working on masters degree, hanging out with the kids). So there is my story.

I try not to dwell in the hurt- but sometimes it just floods in there. I have worked hard at recognizing triggers and redirecting them with positive thoughts about him or our marriage.

EPS525- thank you, love it

When you forgive one another, therefore, you are promising to do three things about his wrong doings. You promise:

1. I shall not use them against you in the future.

2. I shall not talk to others about them.

3. I shall not dwell on them myself.



Forgiveness based upon a repentant sinner's repentance is a "canceling" of the debt. Consequences may still remain to be worked through, but the "position" of being inferior compared to the one granting forgiveness is removed.

God bless.

I don't think it is all that unusual for the offending spouse to want this all to just go away; to just act like it didn't happen, or 'get over it', as they cannot perceive the pain that a BS lives with or has lived through. How can they, unless they, too have been on the BS side.

Truth is, I don't think you ever get over it; I think you get past it, and as time goes by, the pain subsides quite a bit. I'm sure that triggers will always be there. Acceptance of the act of infidelity, that it occurred, and the pain it caused as a part of BOTH of your lives is probably the better solution.

Fogiveness, to me, is something that I do, not for anyone else, but for myself, to move forward. For me, the ACT of forgiveness is to not punish over and over for the same sin. I may get triggered over the SAME issue over and over again, and, with or without my FWH, I have to find a way to move past it, learn from it.

I haven't fully forgiven PWC, but I hope to be able to over the next years (he may not have forgiven me fully, either, for initially emotionally abandoning him). Things are still quite new for the both of us, and I am reminded regularly, by memories, that I cannot trust as I once did. That is a huge blow to me, and I am learning from it; letting go of the perceived innocence that our M has lost. It's painful.

amartini, here is a great article written by Dr. Harley about the subject of forgiveness:


Can't We Just Forgive and Forget?
Letter #1


Introduction: Forgiveness is a subject that comes up quite a bit in marriage. Offenses are common, and the offender usually wants to be forgiven. But the offended is usually reluctant to forgive, particularly if the offender hasn't learned anything from the ordeal.

But if forgiveness is difficult, forgetting can be downright impossible for many spouses. How can people be expected to forget some of the most painful experiences of their lives?

I approach the subject of forgiveness from the perspective of someone (me) who believes in forgiveness, but also believes that marriage should be fair. Since, in many cases, forgiveness is unfair, what should be done? As you will see in my responses to the three letters I've chosen, I support just compensation for some marital offenses, so I don't always recommend forgiveness. It should be an encouragement to those of you who have been feeling guilty about being unable to forgive and forget. But, at the same time, it should also encourage offenders, because the compensation I propose will earn you a terrific marriage, and it won't hurt at all.




Dear Dr. Harley,
My husband had an affair a year ago, and since then I have not felt the same toward him because of his betrayal and my loss of trust. I want to move forward in this relationship, but I'm having a very difficult time forgiving him. I believe, as you do, that honesty is essential in marriage, but my husband does not. As a result, he continues to lie to me about his behavior, and I continue to discover "bombs" that further explain the absolute wretchedness of his affair.

I'd prefer for him to be honest and get it over with so I can begin the healing process, but after a year of emotional turmoil, my focus has changed somewhat. My inability to forgive is eating me up and I need to get better. I've read your columns and I don't find specific advice on how to forgive. Are there steps I can do on my own to resolve this terrible pain?

J.J.



Dear J.J.,
Forgiveness is something I believe in with all my heart. I forgive others and have been forgiven many times. God wants us all to be forgiving just as he has forgiven us.

And, as you have noticed, when you don't forgive someone, it can "eat you up." It's not healthy to keep resentment bottled up inside of you.

The vast majority of couples I counsel who have been through the horror of an affair, have better marriages after the affair than before. It's because the affair jolts them into recognizing the need for building an affair-proof marriage, and the safety precautions they use help them create compatibility and love. But has the offended spouse forgiven the offender in these marriages? Yes and no.

First let's try to understand what forgiveness is. One illustration is telling a person who owes you $10,000 that he won't have to pay you back. You "forgive" the debt. In other words, forgiveness is eliminating a obligation of some sort.

But we generally don't think of money when we think of the need of forgiveness. Instead, we are concerned about inconsiderate behavior that has caused us great pain and suffering -- the pain that an affair causes, for example. Forgiveness in these situations means thinking about the person as if the offense never took place. That is extremely difficult to do. The offended spouse usually thinks, what can he or she do to make it up to me. How can I be compensated for the pain I've suffered.

To make matters worse, whenever a wayward spouse sees me for counseling there is rarely regret and rarely a willingness to compensate the offended spouse. They usually ask to be forgiven, but that doesn't mean he or she is deeply remorseful. It usually means that he or she doesn't want us to bring up the subject anymore, or require a change in behavior. In other words, the wayward spouse wants the pain suffered by the offended spouse to be ignored or forgotten. Like a $10,000 debt, they want it forgiven, and then they want to borrow another $10,000.

I'm in favor of forgiveness in many situations, but this isn't one of them. In the case of infidelity, compensation not only helps the offended spouse overcome the resentment he or she harbors, but the right kind of compensation helps restore the relationship and prevents the painful act from being repeated.

In most cases, an offended spouse would be stupid to forgive the wayward spouse without just compensation. It's like forgiving a friend of the $10,000 he owes you, when it's actually in the friend's best interest to pay you in full because it would teach him how to be more responsible with money.

As it turns out, in every affair there is a way to adequately compensate the offended spouse that is good for the offender and good for the marriage. At first, the offended spouse may not want to be compensated. He or she may try to get as far away from the offender as possible to avoid further pain. But if the spouse asks for forgiveness along with a willingness to compensate, the offended spouse is usually willing to entertain the proposal.

So let's talk about just compensation. What could the offending spouse possibly do to compensate for an affair? After all, it's probably the most painful experiences anyone could ever put his or her spouse through.

The first act of compensation to you from your husband should be to end his relationship with the other woman once and for all. He should never see or talk to her again, even if it means leaving his job or moving your family to another state. The reason should be obvious, but in case there's some confusion, he should be reminded that every contact he will ever have with this woman will be like a knife in your heart. He has already caused you to suffer unbearable pain, and any further contact with his ex-lover would keep you suffering. In your case, the affair is probably over, but has your husband taken precautions to never see or talk to his ex-lover again?

And then he should put extraordinary precautions in place to guarantee that another affair will not take it's place. Has he considered the circumstances that led to his affair? Intoxication, business trips that separate you overnight, close friendships with those of the opposite sex, recreational relationships that do not include you, and so forth, should be subject to scrutiny. What was it that made him vulnerable? Whatever it was, he should take extraordinary precautions to avoid it in the future. It's part of just compensation for the suffering he's caused you to bear.

While there's no excuse for an affair, and if your husband takes the extraordinary precautions I've suggested he will never have another affair again, there are "reasons" that people have affairs. And those reasons must also be addressed when considering just compensation.

con'd at: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5042_qa.html

The crux of his point is that 'just compensation' is required before forgiveness and here is the meat of his point [article con'd]:

"The point I'm making is that in most cases both the offending and offended spouses' emotional needs were not being met by each other prior to the affair. One compensation for the affair, therefore, is for the offending spouse to learn to meet the emotional needs of the offended spouse. But if I can also motivate the offended spouse to do something that should have been done all along, meet the offending spouse's emotional needs, the arrangement seems more fair to the offending spouse. There is not only compensation for the affair, but the one of the conditions that may have created the affair (unmet emotional needs) are removed. The marriage is restored and affair-proofed.

But forgiveness is still necessary even after compensation is made. That's because there's really nothing that can completely compensate for the betrayal of infidelity. Even after compensation is made, there is still the need to forgive. But it's sure makes a lot more sense after the unfaithful spouse makes an effort to restore the relationship.

Using this meaning of forgiveness, the person asking to be forgiven must first demonstrate an awareness of how inconsiderate the act was and how much pain his or her spouse was made to suffer. Second, he or she must express some plan to assure the forgiver that steps have been taken to avoid the painful act in the future. Extraordinary precautions to never see or talk to the former lover, and to avoid circumstances that might ignight an new affair should be part of the plan for recovery. And another part of the plan is for both spouses to meet each other's unmet emotional needs that may have given the unfaithful spouse a "reason" to be unfaithful. As it turns out, it's the successful completion of that plan that's the compensation that leads to "forgiveness." Learning to meet each other's most important emotional needs is the plan that usually does the trick.

But, unlike the repayment of $10,000, where payee suffers a $10,000 loss in order to provide compensation, in marriage, the compensation does not lead to a loss. Your husband should guarantee that he will never have another affair, and learn how to meet your important emotional needs, as you should learn to meet his. I'd say that's just compensation, wouldn't you? And yet, the price your husband pays will make him a much better and a much happier person."

An old saying...."Once a woman has forgiven her man, she must not reheat his sins for breakfast."

Sorry, forgiveness is not about throwing it up in his face a couple of times a month everytime you get angry about his past deeds.

Forgiveness is not a one-time act. It is constant. It is forgiving him each and EVERY time you think about what he has done to you, and resolving to move forward. Expressing sadness is natural, expected, and okay...spitting venom at your H is not.

MBN

Forgiveness is a process. I've been through some very difficult things in my life. One of the things I have had to do was to forgive a man who was a rapist against me, and also to forgive my father who committed physical abuse against me as a child.

Then also, of course, my husband for his affair, as well as a number of other things (including a second rape, and the vaious and sundry other little and very stupid things that people do every day....of little to no consequence, those).

So I do know something about forgiveness.

I will avoid religious forgiveness, for that brings about other questions, and I do not wish to go there at this point, and I am not a particularly Biblical person. "Forgive me" if that is the type of discussion you seek! ;-)

I have seen myself forgive more than one man for the crime of rape. I forgave the rapists. Many nights, I begged God to make me forget, to ease my thoughts. To lift the pain of the rapes from my mind. The only way I could free myself from the pain was to begin the process of forgiveness. It was counter-intuitive, I know. But it was actually the only thing that allowed me to release things.

My father beat me many times. There was one particular incident which actually met felony level child abuse. I was very broken inside. Not the same for many years afterwards, and I lived in fear daily. My childhood from that day forward was frightening - there was no stability for me, and I lived with uncertainty. Yet today, I take care of my father, and have a healty relationship with him now. I have forgiven him. It was in seeing his remorse, his changing of himself and his behavior, his changing of his thinking and acting toward me and others, that allowed me to forgive him. And to free me from the pain and fear from childhood.

Every day, you can read in the paper about family of murder victims who forgive the murderers, of crime victims who forgive the perpetrators. It happens all the time. People ask, "How can they forgive that?". Yet, it is in the process of forgiveness that peace can be found.

Would you forgive a stranger for misdeeds to you? Probably.

Yet it is so hard to forgive your husband, although he is likely making efforts every day to regain your trust and to make things up to you.

Why is he less deserving of forgiveness?

I asked myself this question, and could not give a good answer.

There isn't one - my husband showed remorse, change for the better, a willingness to work to heal me, openness to admit the wrong, and effort to correct things.


Forgiveness as a process takes place over time. Remember though, to give it the time to take place. To blossom. You must be open to it yourself, and he must be willing to accept it too. At about six months after d-day, you can be your own worst enemy - you can reach a phase where your own anger can be dangerous. You might want to be careful and take a look at your behavior, and be sure that you aren't love-busting. Forgiveness means that you are in the process of moving forward, working toward acceptance of a transgression having occurred, and working toward a way of dealing with it in your life together.

It doesn't give you license to throw it in his face and use it as a weapon. Remember when you are hurt or upset and triggered about the affair that it doesn't mean "time to start a fight" - it means "time to let him know you are hurting and triggered", nothing more. He also needs to understand about the timelines for recovery - and both of you need to read Surviving an Affair, so you can have some good ideas about how this all plays out in a typical way.

Forgiveness, truly can free YOU from the pain. It doesn't mean you will forget. It does help you to be able to see him as a person who makes mistakes, who is worthy of redemption, and who you may want to reconcile a relationship with.

SB


By the way - there are those who forgive but choose not to have any relationship with the transgressor. Either way, forgiveness remains the same - the forgiver moves forward, not back.