From the website and book ***deleted***

Stage 1

Women at Stage 1 feel as though something is missing in their lives. They have all the things that they wanted—a home, a family, a great husband—but they feel they should be happier. Over time, many women in this stage begin to lose interest in sex. It is not uncommon for them to spend a great deal of energy trying to avoid physical contact with their husbands because they fear it might lead to a sexual encounter. They frequently complain of physical ailments to avoid having sex and often try to avoid going to bed at the same time as their husbands. They view sex as a job, not unlike doing the dishes or going to the grocery store. Some women in Stage 1 claim feel violated when their husbands touch them. Their bodies freeze up and they feel tightness in their chest and/or a sick feeling in their stomach. The majority of women in Stage 1 feel as though there is something wrong with them, that they are in some way defective. They are also fearful that their disinterest in sex will cause their husbands to cheat, or worse yet, leave them.

Stage 2

Women at Stage 2 experience reawakened desire stimulated by an encounter outside the marital relationship. Whether these encounters with a "new" man involves sex or remain platonic, women will typically give a tremendous amount of emotional significance to these encounters.

Many women in this stage haven't felt any sexual desire for a long time. Many experience tremendous guilt and regret, regardless of whether their new relationships are sexual, merely emotional, or both. Most begin to experience what could be termed an identity crisis—even those who try to put the experience behind them. Constant reminders are everywhere. They feel guilt when the topic of infidelity arises, whether in the media, in conversations with family and friends, or at home with their husbands. Women in this stage can no longer express their prior disdain for infidelity without feeling like a hypocrite. They feel as though they have lost a part of themselves. Reflecting society’s belief that women are either “good” or “bad,” women will question their “good girl” status and feel that they might not be deserving of their husbands. Many will try to overcome feelings of guilt by becoming more attentive toward and appreciative of their husbands. However, over time many women will move from appreciation to justification. In order to justify their continued desire for other men, women will begin to attribute these desires to needs that are not being met in their marriage, or to their husband’s past behavior. Many women will become negative and sarcastic when speaking of their husbands and their marriages and it is not uncommon for an extramarital affair to follow.

Stage 3

Women at Stage 3 are involved in affairs, ending affairs, or contemplating divorce. Women who are having affairs experience feelings unlike anything they have experienced before. They feel “alive” again and many believe they have found their soul mates. These women are experiencing feelings associated with a chemically altered state, or what is typically referred to as being in love.

These women are also typically in tremendous pain, the pain of choosing between their husbands and their new love interests. They typically believe that what they are doing is wrong and unfair to their husbands, but yet are unable to end their affairs. Many often try several times. Prior to meeting with their lovers, they will vow that it will be the last time, but they are unable to stick with their decisions.

Unable to end their extramarital relationships, women at Stage 3 conclude that their lovers are soul mates because they are unaware that they have become addicted to the high caused by chemicals released during the initial stages of a relationship. Many live in a state of limbo for years. “Should I stay married or should I get a divorce?” this is the question continuously on the minds of women at Stage 3 - it is also common for women at this stage to attempt to initiate a separation. In most cases, husbands of women at Stage 3, will launch futile attempts to make their wives happy by being more attentive, spending more time at home and helping out around the house. Regardless of women’s past and present complaints, the last thing women at Stage 3 want, is to spend more time with their husbands.

The reason many women will give for their desire to separate is a “search for self.” They convince their husbands that they might be able to save their marriage if they can just have time to themselves. They tell their husbands that time apart is the only hope of improving their current situation. Women at this stage want to free themselves of the restrictions of marriage and spend more time with their lovers. Most think that eventually their confusion will disappear. They think they will eventually know with certainty whether they want to stay married or get divorced and be with their lovers. Separation allows women at this stage, to enjoy the high they experience with their lovers without giving up the security of their marriages. Husbands of Stage 3 women are often unaware that their wives are having affairs. Their lack of suspicion is typically due to their wife’s disinterest in sex and in their belief that their wife is a “good girl.”

Women at Stage 3 may also be experiencing the ending of an extramarital affair, and the ending may not have been their decision. They may have been involved with single men who either lost interest because the relationship could not progress or who became attracted to another women who was single. Women whose affairs are ending often experience extreme grief. They may become deeply depressed and express tremendous anger toward their husbands. They are typically unaware that they are experiencing chemical withdrawal due to sudden changes in their brain chemistry. As a result, many will feel that they have missed their chance at happiness due to their indecisiveness.

Believing they have become more aware of what they want and need from a mate, women at this stage will often place the utmost importance on finding a "new" relationship that will give them the feeling they experienced in their affairs. A new relationship with a new partner will also represent a clean slate, a chance for these women to regain their “good girl” status. Some women will search for new partners during their separations. Others will return to their marriages, but not emotionally and still continue to search. Some women will resume sporadic sexual relations with their husbands in an effort to safeguard their marriage until they make a decision. Although they are often not sexually attracted to their husbands, desire is temporarily rekindled when they suspect their husbands are unfaithful, are contemplating infidelity, or when their husbands show signs of moving on.

Stage 4

The women in stage four included those who chose to stay married and continue their affairs and those who chose to divorce. Some of the women who continued their affairs stated that marital sex was improved by maintaining the extramarital relationship. Some thought the lover was a soul mate, but for one reason or another did not leave their husband and did not feel torn between the two. Others realized that their feelings were intensified by not sharing day-to-day living arrangements with their lover. Almost all of the women in this latter category were having affairs with married men. They believed their affairs could continue indefinitely without disrupting either partner’s primary relationship.

The women who chose divorce and were in the beginning stages of a new relationship typically expressed relief at having finally made a decision and reported feeling normal again. Many of the divorced women who had remarried and were several years into their new marriages seemed somewhat reluctant to talk about the specifics of their past experiences. However, they did mention feelings of guilt and regret for having hurt their children and ex-spouses only to find themselves experiencing similar feelings in the new relationship.

Another version:

Stage 1:

Women at Stage 1 feel as though something is missing in their lives. They have almost everything they want in life, a great career, a gorgeous home, adorable children, and supportive friends, but something is missing; an emotional connection with their spouse. Oh he is there, right there with her, taking out the garbage, fixing the cars, mowing the lawn....but....he is emotionally barren; unreachable and seemingly uncaring. She tries to connect, time and time again, but her efforts are in vain. She suggests counseling; he scoffs. She begs him for something, anything...he calls her needy. Instead of cutting him off sexually, she does the only thing she knows how to get him to be affectionate; she offers him sex. At least for those 20, 15, 10, 5 minutes, she feels loved. She barters her body for feelings of intimacy.

Stage 2:

Women at Stage 2 experience reawakened desire stimulated by an encounter outside the marital relationship. This type of woman has been so starved emotionally that she is vulnerable and doesn't even realize it. A new man enters her life, maybe someone she works with, maybe someone on PTA, maybe a member of her church. He asks her about her day, and tells her about his. He compliments her beauty, her intellect, her poise, her dedication. It feels so good to be appreciated and admired. The starving woman is now sitting at a feast, and there is no way in h*ll she is getting up and leaving this table until she has taken her fill.

Stages 3 & 4: Probably same as in original post.

My point is, not all affairs are sexual or born out of a sexual awakening. Actually it surprised me to read that. That said, I was ready to leave my H over an EA. Emotions can be very dangerous, unpredictable, and untrustworthy things...

MBN

I like the version Suzet added but MVBN version better describes me, because it sounds like me and what was going on in my R. I thank God I was able to talk to my H and got us both to see the light by coming here instead of cheating. I know it was the best choice I could have made even though the temptation to cheat felt like the better choice at the time because I was starving.

Suzet_,

I'm not sure what your point is. If I had read this post at Dday plus three months, I would probably be divorced right now. Even as I read it, the D thought resurfaces.

As a BS, I read this post and I see that there is no chance of ever having a true loving relationship with my WW ever again. She is only remaining in the M as a compromise and not as her true desire.

I remember I did read a few posts likes this when I had recently arrived here. I remember Hiker's thread on romantic affairs was similar to this.

Maybe I'm just totally missing your point. I hope so.

Don't worry Pio - I think Langley is pretty clueless. A view shared by many on here. Unless I am confusing her with someone else, she considers affairs as inevitable.

I'm not worried about anything. I don't see the purpose of the post here. I'm wondering what Suzet_'s intentions are to be quite honest.

I mean, I don't see any stage where the WW/FWW is happy to be back in her marriage. As BS, I find posts like these very discouraging.

As I already mentioned, Hiker's post very nearly sent me to divorce. I don't think that was Hiker's intention but it was the result.

The passage is probably accurate from the mindset of a WS but it ignores personal choice and responsiblity. MHBN seems to justify the A, if your starving then eat, even if the food is poison.
Kinda like Eve meeting the friendly serpent in the Garden of Eden and eating his apple. End result was bad news for all, even though it seemed like a good idea at the time.

V/r,
No Way

Fatalistic bunch of crap.

That is Langley writing.

I know because I nearly threw up the first time I read it.

She seems to want everyone to believe that a woman is really a monkey; just looking for monkey sex.

She might as well publish "They're all wh0res but momma."

Look, everyone knows that men are the scourge of the Earth, and even men don't ALL think like that.

If her vision of the average female is really accurate, then I am buying a flock of sheep and becoming a Shepard.

MVBN, thanks for your post and input! I want to address your post but let me first clear out the following:

In my opinion, people can stray and become vulnerable to an A for the following “reasons”:

1) Unmet EN’s and/or problems in a M.
2) Pure selfishness and/or a character flaws and/or lack of morals.
3) For reasons/ circumstances other than problems/issues within the marriage e.g. personal problems/issues and baggage a person bring into the marriage and/or personal weaknesses & vulnerabilities and/or failure of WS to protect themselves against their own weaknesses/vulnerabilities.
4) Combination of the above.

MVBN, I think your “version” of the stages of women’s infidelity is applicable to women who fit nr. 1 of the above “reasons” but where the H stays ignorant, inattentive & emotional unavailable in spite of previous attempts from the W to address it (like in you and DIG’s cases). However, DIG informed her H about her temptation right after she experienced the “reawakened desire stimulated by an encounter outside the marital relationship” and decided not to become further involved by entering an EA. This was a very mature, smart an admirable choice on her part and the perfect example how such a situation should be handled. This confession “shocked” her H into action and probably for the first time he realized the seriousness of his inattentive and emotionally unavailable behavior.

Anyway, I think Michelle Langley’s “version” (the one I posted) applies more to “reasons” nr. 2 and 3 above e.g. where the problems wasn’t with the spouse or major unmet EN’S in the M but inside the person whether it was a weakness/vulnerability, character flaw, selfishness, lack of morals or whatever. Nr 3 above applied to me. I was not aware of any major unfulfilled EN’s in my M at the time. In fact, I was generally very happily married with a loving & caring H. The unresolved issues within myself at the time had nothing to do with my H and M. Unfortunately and sadly it took the pain & devastation of an EA with another man for me to realize these things, seek help, address the issues within myself and protect my weaknesses/vulnerabilities en be aware of them.

MVBN, of course all affairs are not sexual and those who do become physical don’t necessarily start out with the intention of getting that way, but if an EN (like conversation, admiration etc.) are met by a person outside a M for long enough, it’s inevitable that sexual feelings and attraction will eventually follow & develop from such an inappropriate emotional attachment & involvement. And it’s during this time that women at Stage 2 will experience this “reawakened desire” even if the EA never progress to PA.

Although I’ve found Michelle Lanley’s “version” very insightful I don’t see it as a “one size fits all”. There are proably many holes in her views, I find it too generalized. Although I could recognize my “pass self” (when I was still wayward) with some of the things she said/described, there were also many things that were totally the opposite from my behavior at the time. Underneath follows a lay-out on how I felt and behaved during stages 1, 2 and 3 comparing to Michelle Lanley’s descriptions:

Women at Stage 1 feel as though something is missing in their lives. They have all the things that they wanted—a home, a family, a great husband—but they feel they should be happier. Over time, many women in this stage begin to lose interest in sex.
This was true for me.

It is not uncommon for them to spend a great deal of energy trying to avoid physical contact with their husbands because they fear it might lead to a sexual encounter. They frequently complain of physical ailments to avoid having sex and often try to avoid going to bed at the same time as their husbands. They view sex as a job, not unlike doing the dishes or going to the grocery store. Some women in Stage 1 claim feel violated when their husbands touch them. Their bodies freeze up and they feel tightness in their chest and/or a sick feeling in their stomach.
This did not apply to me at all. Although I did lost interest in sex because of a decreased libido, I’ve never tried to avoid sex with my H. For me, having sex is a very deep way of experiencing intimacy and expressing love with my H (to experince his love, desire & passion for me), BUT I’ve found it difficult to find the sex act enjoyable physically because the feelings were not there. This was a major concern for me. I wanted to want it but just couldn’t. However, although the physical desire was lacking, I still wanted it for the emotional needs it fulfilled for me. This contrast between the emotional and physical element were VERY frustrating for me.

The majority of women in Stage 1 feel as though there is something wrong with them, that they are in some way defective.
Yes, I felt if there was something terribly wrong with me. I felt totally defective.

They are also fearful that their disinterest in sex will cause their husbands to cheat, or worse yet, leave them.
I did not have these fears. As I said before, I still had interest in sex but the physical desire was lacking.

Women at Stage 2 experience reawakened desire stimulated by an encounter outside the marital relationship. Whether these encounters with a "new" man involves sex or remain platonic, women will typically give a tremendous amount of emotional significance to these encounters. Many women in this stage haven't felt any sexual desire for a long time.
The above 100% applied to me. I’ve experienced a “reawakening” in sexual desire (libido) and during this time sex between me and my H were great. The contrast between the emotional and physical element disappeared.

Many experience tremendous guilt and regret, regardless of whether their new relationships are sexual, merely emotional, or both. Most begin to experience what could be termed an identity crisis—even those who try to put the experience behind them. Constant reminders are everywhere. They feel guilt when the topic of infidelity arises, whether in the media, in conversations with family and friends, or at home with their husbands. Women in this stage can no longer express their prior disdain for infidelity without feeling like a hypocrite. They feel as though they have lost a part of themselves.
Yes, the above applied to me. I especially felt tremendous guilt over the obsessive and inappropriate thoughts I had about OM. I failed to control those thoughts and as a result felt terribly weak. I never expressed or acted on any of those thoughts, but the guilt I had about my inability to “control” it was major. It added to my feelings of “defectiveness”.

Reflecting society’s belief that women are either “good” or “bad,” women will question their “good girl” status and feel that they might not be deserving of their husbands.
Yes, I did feel this way.

Many will try to overcome feelings of guilt by becoming more attentive toward and appreciative of their husbands.
Sometimes I did, but at other times I felt so aloof and distant towards my H that I couldn't respond that way towards him. During such times my H could “sense” that something is wrong and when he questioned me I denied it.

However, over time many women will move from appreciation to justification.
Yes, it did start to “justify” and “rationalize” myself and projected anger and resentment towards my H, especially after he wanted me to stop the “friendship” with OM after he has discovered the inappropriate encounters on e-mail.

In order to justify their continued desire for other men,
I did not have a continued desire for “other men” only for OM whom I became addicted to. There is a different between women who show tendencies of serial cheating e.g. continued desire for other men and a person who become addicted to another person for the first time and I think Michelle Lanley’s fail to recognize these differences. I see this as one of the “hole” in her theory – too generalized.

women will begin to attribute these desires to needs that are not being met in their marriage, or to their husband’s past behavior.
Yes, I did this too. It’s part of justification and rationalization. I convinced myself that I “loved my H but where not in love with him” and that this was also the case when I married him. Of course it was not true, it was typical fog-speak and thinking.

Many women will become negative and sarcastic when speaking of their husbands and their marriages and it is not uncommon for an extramarital affair to follow.
I never spoke negative or sarcastic of my H to others, but I did sometimes speak negatively and sarcastic to my H himself. I criticized him about many things and found fault with him.

Women at Stage 3 are involved in affairs, ending affairs, or contemplating divorce. Women who are having affairs experience feelings unlike anything they have experienced before. They feel “alive” again and many believe they have found their soul mates. These women are experiencing feelings associated with a chemically altered state, or what is typically referred to as being in love.
Was true for me. Althought the friendship with OM has not escalated into a full-blown EA at the time e.g. confession of feelings; discussion of marriages and spouses etc., I did "fell in love” with OM (the chemically altered state) and believed he was my “soul mate”. Therefore, in a way I, did experience a full-blown EA as far as my feelings and thoughts were concerned. My “fog” cleared up and I ended deliberate contact with OM after I discovered this website.

These women are also typically in tremendous pain, the pain of choosing between their husbands and their new love interests.
Not true. I was torn and in pain because of the feelings I had for both of them and the struggle to get rid of feelings for OM, but I never felt I had to choose between them. This was never an issue for me. My H was my choice the day I married him and remained my choice even after I “fell in love” with OM.

They typically believe that what they are doing is wrong and unfair to their husbands, but yet are unable to end their affairs. Many often try several times. Prior to meeting with their lovers, they will vow that it will be the last time, but they are unable to stick with their decisions.
Yes, I can identify with this and experienced it first hand (resumption of EA last year). This is why Dr Harley is so adamant about NC for life.

Unable to end their extramarital relationships, women at Stage 3 conclude that their lovers are soul mates because they are unaware that they have become addicted to the high caused by chemicals released during the initial stages of a relationship.
True. I was unaware that it was an addiction and caused by chemicals untill I discovered this website.

Women whose affairs are ending often experience extreme grief. They may become deeply depressed and express tremendous anger toward their husbands.
True, although I did not express tremendous anger towards my H (only moderate anger and resentment from time to time). This was part of withdrawal and the fog which had not fully cleared up at the time.

The rest of descriptions about Stage 3 woman did not apply to me because I never had the thought or desire to leave my H.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> .....oh....a shepard...

Pio, are you sure about this, that you W only remain in the M as a compromise? I don’t know what is happening in your M lately and I’m sorry this thread had such a negative effect on you. My intent wasn’t to upset any BS. I only posted it because someone gave me a link to that website and I found the author’s opinions and views interesting and wanted to share it here...no hidden agenda. As I said to MVBN, I think there is probably many “holes” I the author’s view and it’s too generalized.

IMO, those 4 stages applies and describe the way of thinking of a woman who is still wayward and who stays in a wayward mind set (not taking responsibility and own thier actions) even if she remains in the M – in other words, those who still justify and rationalize their behavior and thinking for themselves. It doesn’t apply to FWS and the description will never fit a Former WW who stays in the M and recommit to her H. Therefore, no need that a BS with a Former WW should feel discouraged by this because it don’t apply to their FWW’s anymore Pio...

Oh, I wanted to add…

I’ve not yet formed an "informed" opinion about this author and her work (the information from the website is not sufficient to do that, I probably have to read her book first). It's the first time I've heard & read about the author and her work and therefore I welcome and appreciate others input, interpretation and views on this topic.

Suzet, where is the part where she actually speaks the truth about affairs [filthy behavior for which there is never an excuse] and discourages women from having affairs?

From Women's Infidelity:


What she is describing here is the sense of FALLING OUT OF LOVE, which is something that Marriage Builders EXCELS IN and has a demonstrated record of success. Dr Harley's plan to fall in love ACTUALLY WORKS. I don't know if Michele Langley's does, but I don't see how focusing on the adulterous female's state of mind is the solution.

RATHER, the solution would be to learn to meet others needs as Dr. Harley teaches. So, instead of trying to unravel the mind of a falling down drunk, determining emotional needs, etc. would provide a much better road map back to a state of romantic love. Tried and true, btw.

Here are the books I would recommend:

Fall in Love, Stay in Love: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6015_fall.html

Surviving an Affair: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6070_sa.html

Don't be This: click here

Hi Mel, so far I’ve only read the 4 stages on the website and reviews from others on her books. The fact that A’s are filthy behavior for which there is never an excuse is a no-brainer to me. Heck, I even knew deep down it was wrong while I was involved with OM and tried to justify and rationalize my behavior in my own mind as “just friendship”.

I get the idea that Langley has written those books to help men and women understand (not excuse, justify or rationalize) those cycle/stages of the wayward female's state of mind in an effort to help stop and/or preventing A’s (in other words, help stop the cycle from occurring and/or escalating to the next stage) and to divert to a non-wayward state of mind where such a woman can adress the problems & issues within herself and the M. That’s my impression anyway.

Yes, I searched her website for any hint of solutions and it is not there. One has to order the book, I guess. I also get the idea that she feels that understanding the mindset is the answer, to which I don't agree. I think the answer is implementing solutions, as Dr. Harley suggests.

This is one of the reasons Marriage Builders is heads above other marital recovery programs, and most especially marriage counseling - a dismal failure, he focuses on the SOLUTION, rather than the problem. I have learned that this is a key trait of successful recovery programs and puts them ahead of the pack.

AA is the same way, they dont give a rats [censored] about the "thinking" of every falling down drunk who shows up on their doorstep. What does he know? He only knows how to be a drunk. It is the same with affairees, they know how to screw around, they don't know how to have a good marriage and protect their boundaries from temptation. So, there is nothing to be learned from them.

Rather, they are the ones who need to do the listening. And Marriage Builders has those solutions. His principles can teach spouses how to fall in love and how to affair proof their marriages. SUCCESSFULLY! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

What does have to be learned from them are emotional needs, lovebusters, marital history, etc. That is all very helpful personal information that is essential to understandng the person. Folks can't be pigeon holed into a category, IMO.

p.s. I was very happy to hear the good news about your husband, Suzet. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

"AA is the same way, they dont give a rats [censored] about the "thinking" of every falling down drunk who shows up on their doorstep. What does he know? He only knows how to be a drunk. It is the same with affairees, they know how to screw around, they don't know how to have a good marriage and protect their boundaries from temptation. So, there is nothing to be learned from them.

Rather, they are the ones who need to do the listening."

Wow...how off base can you possibly be??

BOTH parties have to do the listening, and BOTH parties have to do the work of discovering WHY, and putting protections in place so that it will never happen again. The Harleys are quite emphatic about that, in their books and on the website; in fact, the Harleys way of thinking is amongst the most sympathetic and compassionate I have found to both the BS and the WS. Never does it take the approach of:

Chapter 1: For the WS.

You are a ho. An addict with no morals and no self-control. Your only hope is to prostrate yourself on the alter of your BS's benevolence and hope for the best. Apologize, apologize, apologize....this is your new lot in life.

Chapter 2: For the BS.

Your WS's affair was not about you ignoring them and putting them second, third, fourth, or last in their lives. It was not about you failing to meet their needs. It had nothing to do with you; how could it? You are perfect. Do not for one single minute think that you need to apologize for failing to live up to the promises you made when you married - to love, honor and cherish your spouse. You are morally intact while your wayward spouse is not. Remember that and embrace it tightly to your bosom as you look down upon them from your lofty perch.


Please.

MBN

I realise you are brand new here, but listening to each other does not entail focusing on the fogged out babblings of a wayward wife.

Rather, it entails listening to SOLUTION based ideas, such as emotional needs, learning to meet those needs and affair proofing the marriage. Defining an irrelvant "phase" is not the same as identifying emotional needs. They don't focus on the many various and sundry rationalizations and rewriting of history that a fogged out WS musters about her affair. That helps no one. They focus on SOLUTIONS, and so far I have seen NONE from this person.



I don't know what this defensive screed is about, because it addresses nothing that has been said here. However, I assure you the Harley's do not believe an affair is to be blamed on the victim. An affair is entirely the choice and responsibility of the person who had the affair and no one else. Steve Harleys words:



Until a wayward takes full responsibility for the affair, the marriage cannot heal. Nor can it be assumed that needs were unmet in every marriage where an affair ocurrs. In my marriage, for example, my H's needs were met in every way. He still had an affair.

And why are you hiding behind this new screen name? What is the point of that? Why not be open about your history here?

The info was descriptive, but it wasn't very helpful. I found it discouraging to read and it made me feel like, 'what's the use'; all women are fundamentally koo koo.

I do not believe that my effort is a waste. I know her too well.



The above was/is true of my WW.

The above definitely was going on in my marriage before DDay and it was one of the reasons I was so happy with my wife and so surprised when I found out.



Wow, the above is what I'm experiencing right now.

I am definitely battling this garbage now. I'm also finding out from my friends, what my wife has been saying behind my back. One irony, I know my wife's OM and she never ever had a kind word to say about him either. Even before they became involved. What's up with that?

To scary. What is a BS to do? Has MB been working for you?

And why are you hiding behind this new screen name? What is the point of that? Why not be open about your history here?

What on earth are you talking about? I have posted here only a handful of times...