That was FOUR paragraphs, smirk, grin, guffaw.

Anyway, thank you very much for your pointed remarks. It takes a village to define those who are four cards less than reality based. I think you are step closer to nailing her. But you gotta read her book (if you have the time) to do a total ax job on her mindset, imho.

More from others please, Mel has made a heckofa good start.

Larry

Larry, I am ENTITLED to FOUR paragraphs. I AM a woman, after all! **snort** <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Larry,

Now that the cat's out of the bag...

Thanks!

Though I did actually find this site by way of Google in an attempt to understand the concepts my pastor/mentor/counselor was trying to explain to me, I did about the same time see posts by you to another poster on WI.

FWIW, I too have sometimes lurked and been in missionary mode while on that site as well as the marriage forum on Usenet. In fact people there tired of me sending people here and I got flamed royally a few times.

I just found WI to be so depressing and little more than justification central for WW on a mission to normalize their lifestyle decisions.

Again, Larry, thanks for being there when some of us needed to be here.

Mark

I haven't read the book, an I don't know anything about the author. However, the excerpt quoted seeme to me to be a pretty good description of how some women drift into infidelity; in fact a slightly more detailed version of the case study in SAA.

Painful as it was to read, I was actually quite interested in the description of the mental and emotional journey of these kinds of wayward women. I don't want to end up making their choices, so getting an insight into the subtle thinking distortions and errors that got them there is useful. Their feelings are real; it's how they interpret those feelings and act on them that's wonky.

Unless the rest of the book is more proactive in encouraging women to behave destructively in response to inner dissatisfaction, this excerpt doesn't suggest that leaving a marriage for an OP offers the woman much of an increase in happiness. Does Langley suggest that leaving/cheating is the only valid thing to do?

TA

Mark I heard every single one of those rationalisations from my Squid. EVERY one.

BP,

What amazes me most is how exactly the same the script is for every WS and even after beginning recovery they still don't see it like that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

How many BS's have come and said "My sitch is different?"

How many in the last week? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

WS's aren't the only ones lost in the fog.

Do people actually read anything here or just start posting? There's even a partial script of fog-speak on the banner at the side of this very page. Does anyone ever read that thing?

When a BS comes here soon after Dday and says, "My W(H) just told me________(fill in the blank), you can almost tell them verbatim the next thing the WS will say. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Just an observation here...

Does anyone think that maybe it is because the same "personage" is behind all affairs? A guy at our men's bible study has alluded to this possibility. When looked at from the standpoint of who really has the most to gain by causing damage to marriages, it sounds reasonable at least on the face of the matter.

Was Flip Wilson really right? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Makes you wanna go "Hhhhmmmm..."

Or is that "DOH!"

Mark

The majority just start posting ...
and I think one of the explainations for this is:

pain

it is difficult (impossible?) to have good reading comprehension when in the worst pain of your life !

When people come here and say (usually in their first post) "I am so confused" <~~~ I assume they are in a lot of pain.

The freshly wounded BS has a knife protruding from their chest cavity ... and it was just thrust there by the one person they thought would always have their back.

The WS pain is different (usually)
The WS is not taken by surprise by the discovery of betrayal ... they have been unhappily aware of the facts about their own life before D-Day....

For the BS, D Day turns their world on end and there is no gravity of thought ... everything floats around and nothing seems grounded - therefore, reading retention and comprehension are usually not do-able .... unless they have been on anti-depressants for a few weeks

Mark, it is the same thing at AA meetings. Every drunk blathers the exact same nonsense and when a newcomer comes in with his fogbabble, everyone laughs. He quickly learns that his bullcrap won't work there. I remember the first time I spouted my crap at an AA meeting, Bob C from Detroit started laughing and played his imaginary violin. Its all the same bullcrap there.

And it is AMAZING how similar the fogbabble is of a wayward to that of a drunk. The only difference is that most waywards don't have as much experience at being a bullsh** artist so they aren't very good. They are laughable rank amatuers. An alcoholic is usually a long term practiced liar and conartist, because we have had to bullcrap our way through every aspect of our lives for YEARS. I guess thats why its so easy for me to see through the fogbabble that is spouted around here. My 5 yr old son had better bullcrap than most waywards!

But what is really sad is that there is a website, WI, where wayward wives can go and be encouraged in yapping fogbabble and no one helps them get honest. That is nothing more than ENABLING and helps no one. It only helps the woman continue to debase herself by acting like an alley cat in heat, at the expense of her own children and husband. How shameful is that?

The WS "fog", usually by the time they come to MB, has become a habitual thinking error that they constructed to self-justify their poor choices. They talk themselves into their affair by calling things by their wrong names. It is a "love affair" not adulterous betrayal of their vows. The kids "will be fine", not the kids will be devastated and suffer.

The BS "fog", when they first arrive at MB ... is usually a temporary loss of cognitive skills because the rug was just abruptly yanked out from under their life!

Of course there are exceptions based on age & life experience & sophistication ... but in general, this is what I have noticed.

this right here, out of the box, is an example of erroneous thinking

more = happiness

NOT !

You could easily replace that stupid sentence with:

"Men at stage 1 feel as though..."


It is all the same. Crappola to justify "feelings" that lead to bad behavior. Doing what we WANT to do because we WANT to because we FEEL like it. Not really anything more than that, when it is all boiled down.

If I let my "feelings" lead the way, boy howdy, I would have a whole barnfull of bullsh*t to shovel out every day. There would be no room for the cows.

And if I did what I wanted to make me *happy* every day, well, sure, I would be hap-hap-happy, but at what cost? In the end, what price is happiness?

Half the time I think all of us "feel" like something is missing in our lives (usually our keys LOL). Seriously though, haven't we ALL felt as though something was missing from our lives at one point or another, despite "having it all" - a great family, a home, a good job, cars, and the rest? Haven't both MEN and women felt this feeling?

We don't all end up in affairs. So the premise of Langley's first statement here is just plain weak - Pep and I agree on the "erroneous thinking" part.


It just chaps my hide when people make women out to be so weak that men "control" them, and they are just so unable to speak up and let their feelings be known, they crumble into relationships because they are just so weak that they neeeeed to be fulfilled because they are just soooo neeedy and cannot possibly be happy without their man. If I had to recap Langley's communication to it's simplest terms and argue back to her for her stages, well...hang on.

I will post it back in a short recap.

SB

And as we all know, adultery NEVER brings happiness. It brings heartbreak, despair, degradation and shame. The biggest lesson to be learned, to me, is this:

HAPPINESS IS THE RESULT OF LIVING RIGHT

Happiness never comes from being bad. As someone who graduated from the School of Hard Knocks [and has the scars to prove it] who made about every mistake in the book, I can attest to the profound truth of that statement.


I feel the same way. It is an insult to women to imply they are stupid, gullible victims who are easily manipulated. If some really are that weak, the answer is not to blame men for their weakness, but to get a spine and start taking accountability for ones ownself. Blaming others for one's own weakness does not help one become strong, it keeps her WEAK by giving power to others. They have no one to blame but themselves for their weakness. With freedom comes responsibility, after all.

Stage 1: Women who become unhappy despite having the elements of what should make for a happy life and marriage become avoidant of sex fearful that they are defective and subsequently fearful that their husbands will leave them. [color:"blue"] Yes, we just live in fear, all the time. We become unhappy for no apparent reason, although we have what we need, and our first idea is that WE ARE DEFECTIVE. Of course, that must be it - I'm defective. Now I don't want sex and my man is going to leave me. Let's see, I suppose I will begin to feel more avoidant and freeze up when he touches me. [/color]

Stage 2: Seemingly random encounter with just about any man somehow makes for a sexual reawakening in the heretofore sexually avoidant, unhappy potentially WW. The walls of morality begin to crumble. [color:"blue"] I particularly like it that it could apparently be just any guy - someone who just compliments me on how well I bake my apple pie at the church social, don't you know. He's my next fantasy man. I am, after all, just a weak woman. Gag. Honestly, do women really hang on every word that men say to us? Give me more credit than that. [/color]

Stage 3: Apparently totally confused WW, now either in affair, divorcing, or ending affair (who knows!), woman is "in tremendous pain" while apparently also "feeling alive" for the first time in a long time.....(you gotta love it!). This is a time of turmoil for the woman, and she is searching for her "self". Woman is very weak and emotionally unstable obviously [color:"blue"] What a thing for a feminist to want to bring to our attention. The woman has gone and gotten herself into a love triangle, made a mess of her life, and broken her moral values. Now, she feels both "alive" and "in pain" - probably true, but, to read the author's words makes me wonder if the WW has absolutely NO control over her own decisions. Langley makes it sound like women just almost panic and get lost in wondering who they are, what they are doing, and how to regain control. To some degree, yes, but these are adult women - ADULT women who are fully capable of making and sticking to decisions. It just bothers me that Langley's presentation of the behavior (particularly directed at WOMEN's behavior) during this stage makes women look helpless, hapless, hysterical, and chaotic. While we describe the decision-making of WS as "foggy", they do remain competent adults. Illogical, but legally competent. Does not some of this behavior/thought apply to the MALE side of waywards as well? [/color]

Stage 4: Summary of women who either divorced or women who stayed married and continued their affairs. [color:"blue"] Interesting that stage 4 DIDN'T include women who chose to stay married and NOT continue their affairs!!!!!!
Shows some bias here........nuff' said.
[/color]

SB

How about another stage, where the woman actually has the courage, integrity and brains to do the RIGHT THING?

Stage 5: Applies thinking cap and makes a decision to be a thinking gal instead of a silly woman at the mercy of her emotions. Takes an HONEST INVENTORY and admits that her problems are of her own making and she is a big enough girl to take responsibility for her own mistakes.

She admits that acting like an alley cat in heat demeans her worth as a human being and destroys the lives of her beloved children and her husband. Admits to herself that blameshifting her sorry, selfish behavior is the cowards way out; having an affair is inexcusable.

Makes a decision to be an honorable, decent woman of character and end her affair and make amends to her victims.

Stage 6: The adultress becomes aware she has hurt everyone in her life that she professed to love and care for.

She is divorced, and much less happy than she was in "Stage 1".

She looks around at her current shamble of a life, and thinks: "What the heII was I thinking? I had happiness and I threw it all away. For what?"

[color:"red"] Suzet

now it is my turn to ask YOU to *delete* something

please delete the links to that site

Stage 6: con'd

Her adultery partner dumped her for the next pretty face that came along.

She is all alone now

Her XH and her children now live with his new wife [they have primary custody because of her adultery. Her OM was called as a witness in the custody dispute. Her adultery exposed to all]

In other words, it ain't Bridges of Madison County in real life. More like NIGHTMARE ON ELM STREET! Especially if her BS comes here and we show him a thing or two about a thing or two. **snort** <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Ummm


I *do* remember Flip Wilson and his oft repeated excuse for every kinda sort maybe offbeat thing he did. I wonder how many others remember <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Larry