APH:

Leave us try this one on for size. I just read Mark and Mel and you and I got a few ideas out of the pile. BTW, Mark and Mel, great posts, er except kinda long winded for Mel <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

As you know, I am clueless why YOU had your affair(s) as in multiple ones. I have scratched my head many times and you have said you dunno. You really don't know? Seriously?

See I have always had this thing in my head that a person who committs multiple adultery is a critter. But somehow I don't exactly see you as a critter. So you are a puzzle.

Try this on for size.

You had one. Yum. Your husband is older than you are. You are not gonna get that yum from him. The next one was easier. Yum Yum... Tasty. Shaddup conscious, he ain't here and besides, he is old. Sexual addiction to yum, yum, tasty. Erk, then it started tasting bad. Over time, your logic says uh oh. What the heck have I been doing. It wasn't so tasty anymore compared to. Compared to what?

There is a vague tickle in my mind that too old puts one key female need in jeopardy; security, safety, protection.

And sometimes people will do stupid things that make them feel good temporarily when something at the core is put in harm's way.

Just as an example:

A couple of days ago, almost out of the blue, my wife comes up with a reason for her affair that I never considered and I just thought I had tested all of them. BEFORE ANYBODY GOES TWERKY ON ME, REASONS EXIST, BUT THERE ARE NO EXCUSES.

Anyway, she says she has always managed to shoot herself in the foot everytime she has been confronted by success. She had just come out of her first full semester of BSN. She had great grades and got high marks from the instructors who count. She was flying high.

Background; Her father and every other male in her life, plus her wicked witch of the south step mother always put her down. Dad says "Oh she's good with book learning, but no common sense." Garbage like that. Got it?

Now she knew I was gonna get her through school if I had to carry her on my back 8 miles through the snow uphill both ways if that is what it took. OM was another story and not a fun one. Not as an excuse, but she says that she was confronted by success and handled it badly. She said it took her months to figure that one but maybe it drew some water.

People do that dangdest things for reasons even THEY don't know. Like you, for example. He is old. The first one was yummie. Then what?

Larry

Mark:

Since you have been on her site and have read her stuff, try this on for size.

Everything you say (or Mel) is valid and so is what APH is saying. But, there is a caveat.

Langley is talented at covering her self. In other words, multiple paragraphs slanted the way you and others so state, with a few sentences throw in that seem to counter the effect, along the lines of what APH h as correctly noted. What does the preponderence of the slant have to say? Does putting MB at the top of her list of sites to go to mitigate her otherwise foggy message?

Just a thought.

Larry

And you loved it, didn't ya, you polecat!? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


I don't think that anything except an honest reversal will mitigate it. That is not mitigation, but CYA, IMO, the hallmark of anyone with an agenda.


Typical of a wayward mind. This doesn't surprise me.

Now THIS is turning into an interesting discussion. I like it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

JL

Aph,

[color:"blue"] "I don't see why that assumption has to be made, and she often says that women need to take more responsibility for their behavior and not treat their husbands as disposable. I think she's saying the feelings that occur are inevitable but it's not inevitable how you deal with them."
[/color]

I think that the feelings are not inevitable any more than the choices that get made in response. Dr Harley does in fact teach that the feelings associated with "first love" those often called infatuation can indeed be sustained over time. But a marriage stops being like that because one, the other or both spouses stop doing those things that caused them to fall in love in the first place. It can be blamed on having kids, familiarity or anything else that one could care to point to, but the bottom line is that usually both have stopped providing that extraordinary care for each other that builds those feelings of romantic love.

IMO, her entire argument is based on an erroneous assumption that the feelings we have for our spouse when first married will change of their own accord or as the result of some random natural process and there is no way to recover or sustain those feelings. This is how the argument is then made that the difference between an affair and marriage is that one is love and the other is infatuation gets its basis. Because if we assume that our feeling must change, and also assume that even though they have changed, we can still be in love, then the feelings do not have anything at all to do with love and the attraction we first had for each other is now nothing more than animalistic drive to mate, which while a component, is not what most people mean when they say they are falling in love.

If love is not those feelings, then when we first felt them for each other, we were not in love at all, merely infatuated, and the reason we got married and promised to live a life of exclusive SF among other things is nothing more than the same drive present during an affair.

So, IMO, her argument becomes self defeating, primarily because she has identified the process women who decide to cheat, and this is key, undergo in an effort to justify their choice to do so in light of clear conflict with their own moral sense and because all of them seem to contain the same rational process, and so she concludes that the observations are universal and therefor women will all undergo the same process and are therefor helpless to resist or prevent it.

[color:"blue"]"If someone slapped you, and you asked them why, and they said, "Because I chose to do it." Would that be a satisfactory answer to you or would you want to know WHY they chose that particular action at that particular time and why it was directed at you?"
[/color]

Of course it would not be an acceptable answer. I don't mean to insist that we simply choose to do something, but any action we take is because we have made a decision. The decision to slap me silly and call me stupid is likely based on something, but is there just cause?

What this leads me to is this. Is there "just cause" for having an affair? At the time the decision is made, it likely feels like there is, but when we examine the reasons given, we find that there were other choices available that addressed the conflict or problem or perceived problem that were morally and ethically superior to having an affair.

If my wife refuses SF and I go without it for a year, do I have just cause to have an A? I do have other options open to me. So while I may point to my W's failure to meet my EN of SF as the cause, it was not the cause, but merely the excuse I used in order to attempt to justify my choice to do what is morally and ethically wrong. Not just wrong for me, but wrong absolutely.

Even assuming that my only basis for ethics and morality is to do no harm to others, the affair does harm to others and is therefor not justifiable under even the relativistic set of ethics and morality so often taught today.

So the reason I fell into having an affair is because I made a selfish choice to put what I desired at the moment above what is right and just. So the reason for my affair is not anything anyone else has done, but simply my own moral failure to do what even I consider to be right. It does simply boil down to a choice I made to abandon my own sense of right and wrong and do harm to others knowing that I will be doing that harm and continuing anyway because I simply want to be selfish.

We do not do what is right because it is right, but under fear of reprisal and once we have lost that fear by stating that what we are choosing to do is in retaliation for what someone else did or did not do and so we claim we are justified because we are merely responding in kind. But the truth is that since there are always alternatives to having an affair that do not entail a unilateral decision to break the vows we made at marriage, we are not justified in breaking those vows.

If a marriage is bad enough to abandon, then divorce. If it is not so bad that it cannot be fixed, attempt to fix it leaving open the option of divorce.

My whole point is that the decision to engage in an affair is not morally justifiable and does indeed simply boil down to "I chose to do so," since any attempt to shift the cause to something that our spouse did or did not do is not just cause for having an affair and it is merely a choice based on our own selfish desires.

Any attempt to justify an affair as being inevitable because something is lacking in the marriage is destined to failure, since the decision is made unilaterally and based on selfish reasons not related to anything in the way of failure by our spouse. My problem with Ms Langley's material is that she gives a list of justifications used by a WS and concludes that the feelings of romantic love are going to end in marriage and therefore, real love is not those feelings at all. Therefore those feelings are infatuation and the decision to remain faithful must based on some sense of self sacrifice that precludes the possibility of our own happiness.

This is in contradiction to what the Basic Concepts of Dr Harley and is stated his books as well as his radio show where he and his wife both state almost daily that the feelings of romantic love that we first experienced can be maintained, sustained and even rebuilt once lost.

If this is not true, the rest of this stuff all becomes a huge waste of time and anyone wishing to recover their marriage after an affair is doomed to failure and should simply file for divorce now.

The WHY is always related to what the WS used to justify the decision or choice that they made, but the secret to avoiding it is to discover HOW the dynamics were set into place and WHAT to do to assure that it will not happen again, not because my ENs have changed or because I have learned to ignore my own happiness and give sacrificially, but because I know how to avoid being in a situation where I must make the decision based entirely on my feelings at that instant.

The answer is in building and caring for the romantic feelings we each have for the other. We do this by, not merely meeting ENs but also by being honest with our spouse; sharing not only the positive, but also the negative in order to build intimacy and avoid resentment. We do it by learning new habits that create feelings of love rather than destroy them (LBs) and by protecting our own weaknesses, not something that is unique and different from person to person, but is in fact the same weakness for all, that of being selfish, sinful, fallen creatures who want our own needs to be met at the expense of others.

Sorry this is so long, but I can't do this IM style in little pieces while at work.

Mark

I'm trying to follow this discussion. It's interesting but confusing. I just wanted to comment on this part:


Similarly I also see people post character assassinations as explanations for adultery, but that doesn't explain anything either. Even if I had no morals or no character, why did I choose to cheat instead of shoplift? Why not just cheat on my taxes, kill some whino or commit grand theft auto? (None of which I would ever do, btw.) You know I think shoplifting is a good example.(And I wouldn't do that either.) I could have stolen something and even if I had gotten caught, my clean record would have meant a slap on the wrist and it would have been far less harmful to my marriage. If I simply wanted to make some random bad, morally wrong choice in my life, shoplifting would have been a much better choice than infidelity. So there's got to be some reason I've made bad choices in relation to sex but good choices in all other domains of life.


I personally think that there are people who do deserve to have their character in general assassinated. Not all adulterers fall into this category, but my x does. He didn't just commit adultery, he also steals, lies, and a whole host of other things that show selfishness and lack of character in all areas of life. I don't understand how and when he turned into this person, but he did. And it didn't just affect how he treated me as his wife.

Mark:

Disagree, sorta:


The initial stages of an infatuation are fueled by a different set of chemicals than those which sustain love over a longer period of time. While your central thesis is accurate, there are conditions. For example, the original infatuation is usually based on projected evaluations of the OP as opposed to certain knowledge of who they really are. Helen Fisher has some good stuff on this.

There is a transition stage between the demise of dopamine, phynylethylalamine based infatuation to the oxytocin + soupl of chemicals. I guess you know that oxytocin is the chemical released while nursing. In other words, Mama's love and that can be extremely strong. There ARE differences in the feelings, which is where confusion sets in for those who are ignorant as to how it works: most people, including me until I did this study.

Langley is running with half the truth as you say in so many words.

Good post. I just had to quibble with that one tiny bit.

Larry

I think it's because we (wrongly) think that having some stranger tell us we're beautiful, desireable, etc. will make us feel better.

To me, unless there is a sexual addiction component, the WS has low self-esteem and craves attention. At least, that's what I'm come to believe about my own situation (years later, after living through my own and my ex-H's infidelities).

Shoplifting would get you... what?... a thing. Infidelity gets you a person saying you're worthy. It's disgusting but true.

I also believe there is an addiction ""factor"" but I do NOT believe it is an excuse. Everyone who's ever quit an addiction knows that there is a time (rock bottom) when you simply MUST make a conscious DECISION to STOP the behavior, no matter if you're ""addicted"" or not.

MelodyLane,



I agree.


Maybe they don't, but sometimes it makes it easier to change your behavior. For example, I used to overeat quite a bit. Part of the reason was that I felt tired from an undiagnosed sleep apnea problem. Diagnosing and treating my sleep apnea was an important step in losing weight. Also important was the knowledge that too much food does NOT give you energy but rather depletes your energy. In fact, eating slightly less than you need boosts your energy because it puts your brain in hunting gear. (Your brain thinks it's time to hunt for food, so it gives you a burst of energy for hunting purposes.) Eventually this will lower your metabolism but you can raise it again by eating slightly more and exercising more. Now could I have eaten less and lost the weight without knowing all this? Theoretically, yes, but it would have been ten times more difficult to stick to. If a little more understanding of your bad choices makes it easier to change, then why not try it? There's nothing to lose and everything to gain (except with weight loss programs and then it's the reverse <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Well it's a pretty potent high. I've never been a drug user but if someone told me cocaine gave a better high than great sex I would never believe them. I've even gotten it from sex with my husband before but we have a lot to work through before we can get to that point again.

Larry,


Check out my post titled The Guilt Loop. I think it at least partly explains why I did not stop at just one affair and why I appear to be like Mr. Spock when saying yes I do feel remorse.

Mark,


I can agree there are no just causes. I just think it's important to know the reason why someone does something even if you agree ahead of time that there is no GOOD reason. In other words, whatever the reasons were, they were bad reasons. But it still might be helpful to know what those bad, unjustifiable reasons were.

new_beginningII,


For a variety of reasons I don't feel like I'm sexually desirable to my husband. I've felt a great deal of pain over this and no doubt this was part of my motivation. (NOT a just cause, but only a motivation.)

It is not analogous to the subject at hand, though, because serial cheating is not caused by a physical problem. If you believe it is somehow caused by a physical malady, then you should visit your doctor. But when I mentioned "REASONS," I was speakng of underlying emotional issues, etc, and other somesuch topics that are normally discussed in counseling. Focusing on the past does not change the present or the future, it only lines the pockets of counselors and keeps you diverted from the present. Focusing on changing behaviors TODAY is the solution.

MelodyLane,

Well the physical problem wasn't the only thing I mentioned. There was also some knowledge about food I needed to know to make things easier. Including one thing I forgot to mention - sugarless gum can help curb hunger cravings. And certainly the idea is to change now, not put it off until I find out why. I change now and then figure out why along the way in hopes of finding tricks to make it easier for the change to stay permanent.

Smart idea; you are on the right track if you stick to this. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks, ML <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />