Frog:

Very enlightening post there.

Fired by her AA sponsor?

That's pretty tough.

And now I understand a whole lot better why your M recovery hasn't been going along.

Your FWW really needs to step up to the plate.

Not one for conflict is she?
Not one for working on herself is she?

Scary that one is.

You know, if we can get Mrs. Frog and PWC to start moving down the road, then we will find that vodka stand!

Frog:

Hang in there buddy.

Good news about Mom.
Hope the pregnancy got sorted out some...

LG

SL,

Thanks.

You know after I posted this I realized she likes the labels but doesn't like the work in gaining the label.

She hasn't done the steps because she doesn't want to.
If I went back in my posts I think I was anxious like a year ago about her slow progress and I got pretty bashed here.

I am in a no win. How do you tell your alcoholic spouse you will no longer support them going to meetings?

Right now my lack of enabling is causing the problem. In the past I took her back even when she was wrong.

Like with my Sister or with her Sponsor. Now I tell her she is wrong and they are right.

I mean her sponsor must feel like a failure. At this rate my FWW will be in AA for 6-10 years before completing the steps the first time.

So what do you do.

I was walking to lunch today. I realized I don't feel in love with her. I don't know if I ever will again.

That is scarey.

Mark Thank you. I am hanging in. I know it sounds bad but every other aspect of my life is going pretty darn good.

My kids are great. OS is coming around it seems. YS is a pleasure. My mom is ok. I am ok. Job is great.

Making great money. Respected. Have free time with the kids.

Just not really feeling the love for the FWW. Maybe it is a phase.

I just have little or no tolerance for he mess ups.

Probabaly because I always have to take a part in the clean up. Even when I warned her before hand.

LG,

Cross posting.

No what I noticed is weird about the conflict. I just realized it too.

Hard to explain. She will back away from conflict if there is a chance she is wrong and she knows the person.

Like her sponsor or me sometimes.

But go out in public and let some one cut in line or something and she is the first to speak up.

The other day we were at seaworld and somene moved to the front of the line and boom she says something in a mean tone.

It has me confused to be honest.

Working on herself No she doesn't do that.

She failed at IC too. The reason recovery is so slow is she lied about the extent of her A to three MC's two IC's and me for 3 years.

I am pretty much at an impass. I was hoping for her to get to making amends and see how I felt.

It is a roller coaster so I will wait.

This too shall Pass. Progress not perfection.

Frog:

In real life, it's real easy to be anonymous and call some one out.


(Ha! welcome to MB!)

It's quite another to stand in front of someone you know and admit to all the things that you have done wrong.

Whether that is in AA or MB.

And maybe you are right. It might be impass time.

Time for her to face the life that she wants to live in.

Sounds like my father. Oops, bump in road! Get drunk, lose job, fall further down the socio-enconomic scale....

Responsibility is a huge kick in the pants.

That's why the booze, and then the A, became such a crutch.

She might not be drinking anymore, or having an A, but she still has to have the crutch.

Frog: MB may not be enough for Mrs. Frog.

The failure at AA, with IC's, and her reluctance to do the most minor things to recover this M of yours, leads to that diagnosis.

You can get lots of help here. ANd you are not a frog any more, you are quite the prince.

But the princess that kissed you has the warts now.

I would recommend Plan B, but I do not know if that Harley technique will work on your W.

How bad is this M?

Count your blessings, and determine if this is good enough for you to get to the kids high school graduation.

No drinking, no waywardness, SF regularly, and working well with the children, and taking care of baby.

Or determine if this really is deal breaker time. You do not have to live in a M that is loveless...

Life isn't always 10th grade. Yeah, there's work to be done, but it really doesn't matter much to your GPA, you don't have a drivers license, so you don't have any real responsibilities yet, your attracted to the opposite sex, but the zits, ackwardness, whatever, slow that down, and you don't have much cash cause you can't work.

Sorry, Mrs Frog, time to move up a little.

LG

LG,

That is just it I can stay.

I mean it really isn't that bad for me anymore. I have me expecations set in reality.

What you asked is exactly what I was thinking before.

I mean I lived with it pre A. My M wasn't really all that good for different reasons.

The bottom line though is she wants to bury it in the sand if she owns it but leave it out for eveyone to see if I own it.

The other thing is it isn't just when it is anonymous she will be confrotational.

She will do it with me or anyone in a condesending way if she thinks she is right.

If she thinks she is right watch out because pointing out anything to the contrary could cause problems.

I am now trying to anylize that a litte because I haven't really figured it out.

For me and the boys I can do this. It isn't that bad to be honest it just isn't recovery.

A D would be financially devastating for everyone involved.

Our kids have it really good because we are together based on my earnings but in a D I would pay so much to her because of her earnings we would both be broke and the kids would suffer.

So I can stay.

My only concern is I know she THINKS she deserves better and last time that happened.........

Here is a sample. I honestly beleive she hasn't shown me the respect I HAVE EARNED over the years.

I have said this for years now. EVEN before the A.

Now she says she feels like I don't respect her.

I said you haven't shown me respect. Her thing with going agains what I asked her to do proved it.

She said "Well maybe it is one of those things where you need to start showing me and I can show you." Like the MC said.

I said so I showed you respect for years. You continue not to respect me. Now you feel like I don't respect you so If I show you then you will show me.

The logic there was confusing. Her idea of disrespect by the way was not beleiving her side of the story 100%.

I checked with my sister.

Then she said she couldn't beleive I didn't trust her.

I think I am just tired of having conversations with someone who only thinks about their side of it.

WOW! LG==you have got to be exhausted today==all of the GOOD,solid, advice!

Frog, did YOU make AA a part of your willingness to recover? Is her being ACTIVELY sober part of your recovery plan? If so, you must enforce the boundary for it to be effective. We will all take the easy street, with the easy people, if given the chance.

YOu live in the world of harsh reality, and you need a partner to push on through this life with, to lighten the load, to fill you up when you are running on empty. From your recent posts, especially since you spoke about your wife becoming pregnant, I haven't heard much effort coming from her corner.

She became pregnant and has not worked the AA steps to the point of being FIRED by her sponsor. It sounds like she wants the easy street. For most of us, there is no such thing, not when you live your life with honesty. You've worked so hard to bring honesty back into your M, why stop now?

((((Frog))))

Frog:

I have to go tonight...

But, the respect conversation?

Circular.

You can see that, right?

Give her the respect. That Harley Plan A. She wants, She Needs it, you give it.

You hope for the same in return.

You should expect honesty from her.

Checking with her sister?

I would do that all day and Flamingo will do it in a heartbeat if she thinks I am lying.

And Mrs Frog was in deep.

That isn't respect. That accountability on her part, and honesty. She did neither.

Give her the respect of being upfront with her.

And if she continues down the same path, then she will slowly crawl into a corner, and nothing frog will ever do, will get her out.

Justlearning, LovingAnyway and BrambleRose can offer you alot of help with this one...

How to live your own life and not give in to her little games, and no longer be a victim of it.

BR is really great about that. She is living with an active alchoholic.

LG

SL,

I honestly beleive her getting pregnant was to avoid the work.

Short cut into keeping me in the M without doing the work.

Above all I am a responsible person. I am responsible for my kids. The new one included. So leaving is not really an option for me. She knows that.

Being fired by her sponsor although recent has been in the works. Just like on a job she has been verbally warned.

Her being in AA and staying sober was a requirement and still is.

I will pack her bags and put her out if she ever drinks again.

I made a mistake to be honest. Again I asked for advice here. I got some serious 2x4's about my unhappiness with her progress.

I told her I wasn't happy with the progress.

I believe you are right SL she wants easy street and it jsut isn't there.

The problem is I don't see that she will see that.

One of our re occuring discussions/arguments is cause and effect.

If she calls me a dumb monkey hugger and then I call her an ugly donkey lover, she gets upset about me calling her an ugly donkey lover.

When I say you called me a dumb monkey hugger she wants to know why I bring up the past. LOL.

It seems all history starts and ends where she can be the victim.

Right now I am keeping the honesty in check because I have just realized these feelings today.

I realized I just don't feel it for her and in her current state where she seems content to stay I never will.

I truly understand the responsibility to the children. I do. Those children also need a HAPPY daddy AND mommy. If you can only give them that apart, then that may be the way to do it. I don't know the answer, and I truly trust the you will get to where you are supposed to be in the time that you are supposed to.

BR has spoken about her R with her FWH, and his being an active alcoholic. She may be of great assistance.

I live around many people who are constantly rubber necking, looking for that dang easy street. They're never going to find it; it's a myth.

good lord, and what is her diagnosis? if you are the co-dependent one, than what the heck is she?

mlhb

SL,

In there may be the answer. I am not unhappy. I know that sounds weird. I really do.

I just don't feel love for my wife. She doesn't make me unhappy most of the time.

When she does I tell her and deal with the fallout. Whatever that may be.

I think my growth has caused problems. When the whole thing happened with my sister I realized how much I changed.

In the past, I would have taken my FWW's side. I would have been mad at my sister. I would have empathized with my FWW. I would have accepted her doing what I asked her not to.

That was what she expected me to do this time. The opposite happend and that turned her world around a little.

She was mad at me for not taking her side.

EZ street doesn't exist. I have a lot of bumps, bruises, scars and memories to remind me of that.

I think me fixing her mistakes has made her believe it does.

Frog,

I've long admired your persistence and I hope you truly get progress if not perfection.

From what you said, and fully admitting I have no true idea what your W's ENs are, I would bet that Admiration is near the top. My WW screws up in a lot of ways and I never found sincere admiration easy. Your description sounds all to familiar to me.

In your case, with a W with an addiction and a past affair, it must be a challenge for you too. But if it is one of her top ENs, then it really is a need and she can't be happy without it. My wife can be very confrontational and I think it is in part defending her 'self-esteem' (she deserves to not be cut-in-front-of; people ought to see her correct and as bright as she wants to feel, ...)

[End of amatuer psycho-guessing]

- WG

Morning Frog...

Good to see you around, I was actually wondering about an update yesterday...then, here it is this morning! Wonderful...

I think that it's pretty safe to say that FWW lives in a constant state of denial, her Reality, and then there's your Reality...

You are the doer...you step up to the plate whenever needed...the truth is that there are people who "would like " to step up to the plate but for whatever reason are incapable...

Goes to character defects...I'm sure that your W knows this about herself and admitting that she "would like" to do better and can not is a huge hit to an AA...

In knowing this about herself she has to cover this defects the best way that she can and she's unable to "See" that others can "see' the cover up...

Have you ever read Wayne B.'s workshop stuff Step n'Ahead...this past weekend I got to listen to him speak and it was amazing...

I've included a link to his stuff, it MAY be helpful in understanding what is going on there...I have the book at home, but have not finished reading it yet...

TheIsmFactor

I think that, just my thinking outloud, that where the Alcoholic is drinking or not the effect remain...it's being proven that once the addition is formed that the brain actually changes in structure and of course chemically...

wouldn't this lead to patterns of thinking also? Thing is that in order to keep straight they have to work the program...

LA just said to me the other day that I'm a over-doer and POWS is an under-doer...both of which can be harmful...now, in the under-doer does that go back to feeling of worth on their part, I sincerely think so...

They say aloud I can, but undernear their are scared and can't/wouldn't...self-sabbatoge...I think so...

So, we're back to they have to do it for themselves and they is nothing that we can do to make them...

So, can you accept this from your W? That the pattern exists and this may be all that she is capable of...

it boils down to what is acceptable for you and what is not acceptable fro you and it sounds like you CAN live with this, but would chose not to IF you could...

Let me know what you think...

For once I feel that I have something interesting to add to YOUR thread, LMAO...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

PS...there's a workshop in CA on the calendar...

WG,

WOOOWWWW Bingo you win the prize. I read that last night.

Admirations, appreciation, affection, conversation(not necessarily honest and open) and respect.

True admiration is not easy with my FWW either. True respect is getting harder and harder too.

But she wants it. I think she wants these things but doesnt' want to put the work in to earn it.

I mean if it was conversation as a top need that is easy. But the Respect, admiration and appreciation need to be earned.

HMMMM. NOw you have me thinking.

I know in the past I have explained that to her.

Rin,

Yes, I too believe what you are saying. Her sponsor called her Dry. I have also heard the term "IN YOUR DISEASE" meaning about the same thing.

I am just seeing the same person sober. I wanted to see a different person sober.

The one thing I am sure of is that I know I cannot change her.

That I know.

I think I have accepted the fact that change isn't happening like I wanted.

In our last discussion I made it clear I wasn't happy with it either.

So as it stands today I am married.

I wish I could say I am recovered or moving toward recovery but I don't know that to be true.

Well, what is your plan or action? Where that is for yourself?

Rin,

I honestly don't have one. I am just now trying to figure this out now.

So I am assesing the situation.

I guess I was getting frustrated and then seeing someone that is supposed to be her sponsor feel the same way some what validates my frustrations.

So when I figure it out I will let everyone know. I can't just leave she is pregnant.

I don't really know. Maybe stay married with low expectations.

I think it wouldn't be so bad but she has high expectations of how she should be treated.

In other words she wants her EN's filled even if she isn't filling mine.

She wants to be treated above reproach when she doesnt' diserve it.

Just my thinking out loud.

Okay, well, that is a plan...so, you ARE moving along...

how does she feel about her sponsor firing her? Do I miss that, have you asked, does she really understand what her sponsor was trying to tell her about working the program and what she needed to do?

I mean if it's a one thing that I've heard time and time again, it's that the AA will not want to do something and that's their signal to tell them that they really neededt to do it...

Did your W chose her sponsor or did the sponsor chose her? I was wondering about how well that they fit together?

I know i've heard that the sponsor picks the newcomer...

LMAO...I figure if I ask enough questions something has to pop...LMAO <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Actually, I love brainstorming!

I am a little sketchy on the question.

I am almost sure she picked the sponsor but this is her 3rd I think.

The first time she was in AA she fell out. Then she went back and had a sponsor and then she chose this one.

The thing with her sponsor was she likes things written out. A lot of writing. Now my FWW doesnt' like to write.

Now to be honest she brought this up to me and I said talk to your sponsor about it.

I dont' think she did. So she wasnt' moving forward.

So her sponsor, I just found out, was pushing her and she just didn't move.

So personality wise they got a long great. The only biggie was her sponsor liked to write and she didn't.
But this has been a known for a very long time.

So she could have chosen another sponsor if this was coming.

Either way she could be past step 3. Now she says she knows that she should be working on it.

She just isn't. So there it is.

I don't know where to go with her.

For me. I am working on our credit. I am on the verge of wiping out the rest of our debt.

I am doing great at work. It is amazing I thought I was kind of under the radar and actually I am above the radar.

It is nice.

Wel, as far as the debt management, I know how you feel on that one...I'm in the process of wiping out as much as I can right now...

Depending on WHEN i get CS, i mean here we are the 19th and nothing yet...i will be paying off my car and another big loan that we had...this will leave me clear to be able to pay for the hose on my income alone when we move back in...

So, I'm pretty excited about that...I will be hitting two small credit cards next...one for $500 and the other for $800...I have also been paying on our large one and have that one down some...

The house note went up a hundred dollars so the car note and the other loan note will cover the house note now...

i'm sure that POWS will not be happy when I start paying the note, if I can, prior to moving back in...but this is for "our" security in the long run...the boys and I's...

I refuse to pay the motorcycle or his truck...I'm looking forward to how the court views my actions in regards to paying off our debt...

Well that is the doer in you.

To me it became clear the other day about what is frustrating.

I cannot honestly say that when I made/make a bad decesion I do my 100% best to make sure I am responsible for fixing it.

I asked the FWW the other day to name one bad decesion I made that she had to worry about fixing. She couldn't come up with one. I asked her to name one that negatively affected her. Again couldn't think of one.

I stated that is the problem you make them and I end up with some or all of the responsiblilty of fixing.

Me being the doer. The finances I am fixing are directly related to her affair.

Not to mention other decesions that are well documented.

But I am getting it done. My commision this month should put me over the top.

I am actually waiting for one of the collection agencies to contact me so I can negotiate down.

Then I am done.

I will have it out of the way.

Then after that I am going to upgrade my car. Not a new one but a newer one. Mine has almost 180k miles on it.

Then start saving for a house while cleaning up the credit.