Appreciate any insights to be offered here. Long story but I’ll try to stick to the main points for background info:

MY W and I met and fell head over heels for each other instantly. Became inseparable best friends and companions. We got married after a 2 year dating/engagement relationship and were married faithfully for 10 years (no kids). Nearly a year ago she separated from me and wanted a D. Classic WAW (walk-away wife) syndrome, I was the classic neglectful/taking it all for granted H who unknowingly was not meeting her emotional needs for quality time and conversation/companionship.

She moved into our rental condo and I spent months doing all the wrong things…pleading, begging, crying, promising to make it better, acting depressed and desperate, etc….you all know the drill. I heard all the classic lines like:

“I love you but I’m not in love with you”
“It’s too late now”
“You ruined a good thing”
“I loved you so much and you squandered my love”
“There is nothing left to re-kindle”
“You forgot about me and hurt me so badly”
“People don’t change”
Yada, yada

We went to counseling for a while but she lost interest and stopped. I read multiple books on marriage in crisis, she read a little too but not as much as me. We went to a marriage seminar (Dr. Gary Chapman) but she soon retreated behind her wall again after a brief thaw. She stopped returning my calls and contacted me less and less despite me pouring my heart out to her over and over. There were a few points of genuine hope that seemed to vanish rapidly and she withdrew again and again.

W finally filed for D in January ’07 after “struggling with how God would view it” but she concluded that “God wants me to be happy and I have felt unhappy for too long” (we are both Christians who have re-connected with our faith after a period of neglect). Soon thereafter I found out she was involved w/ another man she knew from her work. Don’t know when it started but I suspect it was around the holidays that the affair bloomed. I’m sure he paid attention to her and listened cause there is no other way she would ever go for a man like him…rebound??? He is married, getting his 3rd D (3rd W divorcing him), short, fat, and nearly 20 years older than her. She has since moved in with him. He is totally beneath her in every way, you know…

I was floored—such activity is TOTALLY outside her normal realm of morality and decency in every way! I revealed what I had discovered to her and there were no denials only excuses like “you left me first” and “we were done anyway” and “I made a choice.” I revealed it to her family which caused a firestorm though I now know her father has told her that he does and will not condone her current lifestyle. I suspect that other family members and friends are merely enabling her by buying her reasoning and offering their “support.”

I then went dark (with the aid of threatening letters from her lawyer to avoid contact as she was talking about me “stalking” her and getting an order of protection). The L told me it would be finished by late April. In Arizona you have to wait 64 days from the date of service to submit your settlement agreement to the court who then just signs off as a formality. The earliest we could submit was about April 8th. I heard nothing for a good month. Finally got hold of the L in early May who told me that there had been a paperwork prep delay at his office and that I would have the final doc I needed to sign/notarize immediately (“done by the end of May”) this time. I did that and got it back to him just before Memorial Day weekend. She has separated our accounts and medical insurance, etc. I was heartbroken all along but went along—what else could I do? Her mind is made up and no effort on my part is going to change it. I simply stopped resisting the process.

Starting in mid-April (as I was expecting final papers any day) I decided to try to move on and let go completely. I had been alone for 9 months and was gradually forgetting and not thinking of her anymore. I started dating casually and have developed a relationship with another woman (lets call her”JN”). From my perspective we are friends and I enjoy spending time with her as a companion but I see no long-term romantic spark. I know she is not the “one” and am certainly not going to jump into a new marriage anytime soon. More on this in a bit… I had done some counseling with Homer MacDonald (“Stop your Divorce” on the internet) earlier and he had a different approach to these situations than either Dr. Harley (Marriagebuilders.com) or Michele Wiener-Davis (divorcebusting.com) – he knows it is different than them as well. He feels strongly than the rejected H in these situations must date other people in order for the rejecting W to see him in a different light. Sounded goofy to me at the time and that is not why I did it as I allude to above, but I have done it for recreation. I really felt like I was making tremendous strides in moving on emotionally despite my long-held desire to repair the M. Seeing other women show kindness and interest in me did a lot to repair my trampled sense of self-worth over my W’s actions and attitudes.

After little to no contact since February, I awoke one morning to find that my W had sent me a series of text messages the previous night around midnight. There were explanatory and conciliatory:

“We had many great years…amazing memories…thank you really…we just lost too much the last few, so sad”
“I struggled for many months, went back and forth, there was no one else”
“You did not know you really needed to listen, I did not try the right way apparently, I’m sorry for that”
“I am sorry I have made you sad, sorry for so many things…over and over”
“I loved you more than life…you broke my heart and I’m sorry I could not recover”

And finally:

“You are a good man and I know you will be able to move on. Heard you had a great time out with your new girlfriend…love her like I loved you…that is all she wants”
[She found out about JN and I indirectly through a mutual acquaintance couple who used to be friends of us both]

This brought the whole flood back. I texted her back (mistake?) and we exchanged a few more texts in which she said she had forgiven me for my past mistakes entirely (which I have confessed many times) and that “fortunately we have a forgiving God” with regard to her mis-steps (which, of course she did not allude to specifically). When I said I was sorry again and only had wanted to make it right, she said “I know that now.” (new admission)

Since then we have had two phone conversations mostly about the last year and the events that brought it about. I have carefully avoided any criticisms or mention of the OM and have offered my support and praise for her recent illness and work accomplishments respectively. The last contact I got from her was a smiley face in response to me texting her that I think of and pray for her. She also said that she thinks of me often as well. I was left baffled why all the sudden interest after months and months of barely being civil to me if any contact at all. I checked online and the D is still NOT done. If not finalized by the court by early August, the case is automatically dismissed and would have be started over all again.

A few nights ago I had a long phone convo with a female friend (neighbor of the above couple who introduced us for the purpose of mutual support) …call her “SW”. We exchanged war stories about our situations and shared insights into how men and women think differently and often don’t understand each other. SW is going through her 2nd D and has read many of the same materials as me including “his needs, her needs” by the Harley’s. Her situation with her 1st H presented some eerie parallels to that of my W and I. SW was a classic walk-away wife who loved her H completely and devotedly and finally left due to severe emotional and even physical/geographic neglect. He did all the same chasing maneuvers which she rebuffed as “too little, too late” but now recognizes were genuine signs of love and remorse on his part. She went to counseling with him but didn’t really try to save the M as “he couldn’t change.” Ultimately, before filing for D, and which she now admits she is ashamed of, she took up with another man because he showered her with the attention she had been lacking in her M. When her H moved on and fell for another woman, she had pangs of regret and tried to reconcile but he was no longer interested. SW told me that her mindset was that seeing him happy and content after their breakup made her feel like she had made a terrible mistake. Crazy, huh? She ended up marrying her lover shortly thereafter and found out that was a terrible move and left him and filed for D a 2nd time after only 2 months of marriage. I asked her about the timeline she experienced for her 1st D in AZ and she said it was over and done with in only 2 1/2 months. When I told her the extended timeline I have been dealing with and the recent contacts we have had, she said that my W must be having doubts because “I can tell you, if she wanted it over she would have been all over her lawyer to get it done as fast as I did. No way it would have just dragged on with no legal activity taking place.”

That is the story and I apologize for its length. In thinking it over I have come up with a few scenarios that might be at play here:

1. My W finally signed and the papers merely await the judge (still delayed somehow?) and she contacted me for “closure”
2. She is feeling guilty and maybe has told her lawyer she wants to think some more
3. She is realizing that her new love is a total sham and a dead end and is testing the waters with me to see how I’d react.
4. She is strangely jealous of my new social life even though she does not want our M restored.

I DON’T KNOW! Any thoughts? It just seems strange that any W who spent so much time rejecting me and pushing me away would not have just pushed this through a while ago and cared not at all what I was doing or if I was seeing anyone new…

Help! Thanks!
DDC07

sorry
I must comment on this idiocy



now I am NOT an expert at all... however .... my understanding is that God would prefer we were GOOD and that we followed his laws (you remember, those 10 thingys carved in stone)

Again ... those "pesky commandments" .... "Who cares what God says ... I'm gonna follow Michelle-Weiner-Davis and Homer MacDonald commandments!"

I don't believe that Michelle Weiner-Davis would recommend you date while you're married. I don't know anything about this MacDonald 2wit, though.

If he recommended this, then you need 2 have yourself a book burning and get rid of that nonsense. Roast a 2be steak with it.

You are having an affair! At least one, possibly 2. Why would you seek marriage/divorce advice from this 2nd gal who's in the process of DVing her Affairage spouse? Run away!

I suspect that your W's affair started before you separated. About now would be right about the right timeframe for the affair 2 burn out if so.

If you don't want a DV, don't agree 2 one. Make her work for it.

I'm not religious, but it really tweaks my gain knob when I hear people justifying their behavior with nonsense like "God wants me 2 be happy." Pep's right. He wants us 2 be responsible. If we're responsible, we've got reason 2 be happy. If we're doing what feels good, regardless of the affect that has on others, then we've got no business being happy.

-ol' 2long

Pepper:

Thanks for your comments and I fully expected some of those.

I couldn't agree with you more on God wanting us to do what IS right , not what may FEEL right at the time. I read similar comments from many books on M and shared them with my W. Dr. Chapman talks about choosing not be led by emotions but to act on TRUTH and emotion will follow. My W has all these materials and was exposed to them over and over. When someone, however, knowingly CHOOSES to do what is not right (my W told me that "I made a choice" when I confronted her with my knowledge of the OM and asked her to break it off to rebuild) there is little one can do in the face of that kind of emotional determination. You are completely correct that the excuses/rationalizations she has used (esp. invoking God) are as lame as it gets.

As for me, I didn't start seeing anyone (and it is platonic only at this time, laugh if you will) until AFTER my W's lawyer told me the D would be legally final. That turned out to be either a mistake on his part or an intentional delay, I don't know yet. From a practical standpoint here, I can tell you that moping around lonely and depressed waiting for a phone call that may never come does NOT give a WW much incentive to end her A and seek to repair the M.

You have to work on yourself and make yourself happy and MOVE ON emotionally (to what extent and when guided by your own moral compass so to speak) no matter what she decides to do. In fact, is is only that way that a BH has any realistic chance of his WW seeing what she is missing and has given up. It is the mother of all Plan B's!

DDC

2long:

You are correct that Michelle does not advocate seeing others and of course neither do the Harley's. Others do. Now "seeing others" does not necessarily mean emotional or physical involvement...that's up to the individual and his/her moral beliefs. No one counselor can possibly be right all the time and in every situation. One person's quack may be another's sage.

As for me in particular, JN and SW are FRIENDS. I have made it clear that I am still married and not ready anyway for a romantic R with anyone. I certainly understand your concerns, but to argue that a grown man and grown woman can't possibly have a platonic friendship strikes me as a little Sharia-like...should I make them wear burkha's so I'm not tempted?

An affair implies emotional and/or physical intimacy. Sure you don't mean to suggest that a man and woman can't talk about anything more in depth than the weather without it constituting an "affair." By that definition I would be guilty of an having affairs with the best friend's wife, another friend's girlfriend, several co-workers, and my sister!

I appreciate your thoughts, really I do. Just think you may be laying it on a little thick here...

My question in posting the original scenario was to gather insights from folks about what may be going on in my W's head (which is why I asked SW about it since she is a woman and actually LIVED it). Wanted to know if I might be reading too much into my W's actions/inactions. I have all along wanted to and tried to repair our M..still do...but it takes two and i don't want to get my hopes up for nothing. thanks again

DDC

This is all true, 2 a point. We're talking about marriage, here, and there's a lot of "prior" morality that goes in2 the definition of marriage in this country, and on this forum in particular. I don't see anything particularly "wrong" with having friends of the opposite sex so long as it's all over the table and open and honest with all the "loved ones". But in a si2ation like yours, or mine, or most people here, it's adding risk unnecessarily. What does your W think of these friends? Either way, the presence of these female friends is having an influence on her and your decision making ability. Good or bad, it isn't possible 2 ignore.


Why have ANY relationship-related discussions with these women at all, then? Particularly the one DVing her affair partner?


Re-read what you just wrote. If grown men and women could truly have platonic friendships outside their own marriages (particularly when those marriages are in trouble), then there would be no need for websites like this one.


My W, who had a 12-yr affair and is still withdrawing after 5 and a half years since d-day, often talks like that. Steve Harley once defined an affair as "what your spouse thinks it is." Over the top? Perhaps. Really, I think it's fine 2 talk about things more in depth than the weather (unless you're a meteorologist spending time with a female coworker after hours without your spouse's knowledge or consent). But talking about the problems with your marriage? With a female who also has marriage problems? Bad idea. Always.


I do that sometimes.


Why not have these conversations about your marriage and what's going on in your W's head WITH YOUR WIFE? Find a good counselor or marriage coach (the Harleys are great) and see if your W would be willing 2 join you? Ask her in a controlled environment with a qualified professional, not someone who could easily become conflicted and who needs sorting out themselves.

-ol' 2long

Purrrrrrrfect Advice from the "Duece"

2long:

Wow, i guess i didn't make myself clear in my original post which i thought was already too long and detailed (there are a ton of things I left out to save space).

Your idea of discussing these things my wife...wow, hadn't thought of that! Sorry for the sarcasm, but I busted my butt to talk with her/spend time with her/counseling/seminars/books/websites/YOU NAME IT for nearly a year!!! She is behind a high, thick wall and won't participate! It is kinda impossible to have these talks and plan B at the same time!

No offense, but if you think I have not truly gave 110% you are wrong! At this point I'm lucky if I get a one-word text back for my efforts. Usually it is just silence. Believe me, i wish it were not so, but i can't compel her to "engage" -- she believes, like all walk-away wives, that she has lost her feelings and they can't come back -- nothing will change her mind, only she can CHOOSE to do that. You name it, I've tried it.

No, I'm not going to cut myself off from all emotional support and recreation just because it happens to be female. I lived like a depressed hermit for 8 months and I'm not going back to that ****** just on the 1% chance that my W comes to her senses and starts respecting her vows again which of course she knew she should have all along...

thanks, enjoy the banter!

DDC

Shattered:

Sounds great! I agree completely! I'm there!

Now, how exactly do i get my W to participate? I would fly the Harley's out to the house and pay their time for a solid week if I had a partner even willing to discuss the possibility!!!

Don't mean to be rude, but I have made all those efforts...how do you reach someone who won't even take your calls? And still be detached? And not appear to be chasing?
HOW???

I'm all ears!

DDC

I know of what you speak. My W still won't talk about our marriage as it was impacted by her affair. But... ...if you are still trying, you aren't in plan B. In plan B you should be in a dark, NC. And one possible outcome of plan B is divorce. And since you're DV is in process, you need 2 decide what kind of relationship, if any, you want 2 have with your STBXW.


I'm not suggesting you keep "badgering" her. As you've discovered, like I learned, you can't "educate" her or entice her in2 participating in anything she doesn't want 2 participate in. My W has done all those things you've described with me, only she never left.


Then why not wait until you're divorced? And then why not give yourself a year or so 2 get over the divorce before dating again? Do you have no hobbies 2 occupy your mind without having female companionship? No male friends?


Don't really have the time. I should get back 2 work.

-ol' 2long

You don't. You let the Harley's do that. And you don't have 2 fly them out, they do phone-in counseling.

Give them a call. I think you'd be impressed.

-ol' 2long

Of your scenarios?

I would say it is a combo of 1/3/4 or 2/3/4.

You have an attorney -- get an answer.

Most likely she is didn't find nirvana with her new man.
So the happiness she was running to didn't materialize.

I would guess she will be forever conflicted.
You've sorta removed yourself from cake-eating, so now all she can do is wonder if she made a mistake.
Depending on her level of pride, she may just stick it out.

Be grateful you've heard words of remorse and apology. Most betrayeds never get those....

If your wife is just 'talking about wanting to think some more', but hasn't actively committed to change anything, and is still "is behind a high, thick wall and won't participate! " then you've got no reason to change your gameplan at all.

Why would you even consider anything at this point? You're not in 'plan B' if the two of you are talking at all...you're in plan D. If she's not sure about the divorce, then talk with her about what your requirements would be to consider reconciliation. If she's not enthusiastically on board with listening to this, don't waste your breath. She's 'thinking about things', but she's not willing to CHANGE anything. No basis to rebuild from there, IMHO.

Thank you all for your input--I really, truly do appreciate it!! Read it all and i have a question...

The Harley's: I know about phone counseling and have done some elsewhere. Basically I have been told to back off/go dark whatever you want to call it. This I did for months until her texts in early June which I cited above. I would be more than happy to employ the Harley's in that but asked how I get my W to participate. The response was "you don't, the Harley's do that". Ok, how do THEY do that? Assuming I am dark, do they call her? Or do they just advise me alone while I wait? I guess i don't want to pay just to have someone hold my hand...

DDC

This is what stood out from your 1st post. R U ok with the fact that SHE forgave YOU?

IMHO, that's babble. If you communicate with her after she stands by that statement, she is controlling you. You have NOT given her a reason to return because in her WS mindset, she has to forgive U. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

L.

Well thank you all again. Tired of being held in limbo, I finally got hold of W's lawyer today and found out that she has signed the final decree and it has been submitted to the court today. Only awaits a judge's signature to be final.

I guess I got the answer to my original question.

Yesterday I received an email from W (1st contact in 2 weeks or so). It was basically a list of complaints about some past bills on our 2nd home (which she is getting) she thinks I should pay, her losing her addresses when I removed her email accounts from my system (she had long ago opened new accounts for herself anyway), and some general whining about me "not keeping my word" on paying her business's tax prep fee.

Get this--there was one other dig about me "not having a problem running up her legal bills" by emailing/calling her lawyer's office a few times. Basically it was a request for me "to be nice" and give her some more money.

My thoughts are too vitriolic to print. I won't go into the details of why her claims are non-issues but the nerve of her complaining about me "not caring" is rich! The irony of this hypocrisy has to be self-evident--one just gapes!!!

I have not responded and probably won't--ever.

She made a choice, all of this results from what she wanted, and ,yes, I don't consider it my problem anymore since she threw away our M.

Thoughts?

DDC

ddc07:

I think that not responding 2 messages that raise your ire is a good idea.

So, the divorce will be final soon?

The next question will be whether you want 2 have any kind of relationship with your STBXW or not. Certainly, it's understandable that you might not.

But if you decide that you might want 2 have a relationship with her at some later date, do know that it is possible 2 recover even after DV. People here have done it. And it sounds like your W still hasn't faced her own demons in this - she's still blame-shifting on you. It could take her quite a while yet.

-ol' 2long

2long:

You are right, I might vent here and elsewhere but I won't respond to her. D final soon.

As for a relationship with the STBXW, I don't know. If I had to guess, I would say I'm not interested. We really have no reason to see each other (no kids, no more mutual friends, etc.). The friends we shared had either have been co-apted by her already (which means they have bought into her justifications so I can no longer respect them) or she has cut ties with them and they remain w/ me so to speak.

If anything along the lines of rebuilding were to take place, she would have to be the initiator at this point. As others here have posted, she would have to admit, apologize, and repent leaving the typical WW excuses by the wayside. Knowing her, i doubt she couls stomach the pride-swallowing that would entail. So, I doubt it...likely it will just be a fade to black.......

thanks again and i enjoy hearing any comments anyone would like to offer,

DDC

A WS' terms and conditions are short lived. Their gripes today will be their regrets tomorrow.

So you stay on a steady course. ID your personal boundaries and no matter what way she swings, you know where u r and need 2 b. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Even if you gave her the $$ and paid her bills, she would still find something to gripe about. See the WS can't survive as a WS if she doesn't have something to leech onto. Once you remove yourself from this charade, you are in effect giving the death blow to the WS. She either has to shed her skin and become another being or die along with the WS, neither of which is within your control or your issue.

Just protect yourself and your assets legally. Know that many a WS are out to burn the BS and family. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

take care,
L.