Here is what needs to happen to effect recovery: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5065_qa.html

I wouldn't give this to him just yet. First make him convince you the affair is over. If that is the case, I would call Steve Harley and let him faciliate a reconcilation [or lack thereof] that will keep you PROTECTED.

You already know the answer to all three of these questions:

1. No.
2. It hasn't.
3. He likes having two women fight over him and wants to make sure you're still dangling in case it doesn't work out with his girlfriend.

If he is not running to you and throwing massive proof that his affair is over at your feet, you are wasting your time. Anything less is just more game-playing on his part so he can continue to string you along.
Mulan

I suspect Mulan hit the nail on the head, SMB.

Ditto Mulan.

And SMB...God does NOT give vague responses. IMHO, your husband has NOT been open to HIS Grace.

Thank you Mel, MEDC, Mulan, Ace, DNO, & RIF for being here when I need you.

To be honest, I am hoping he is not sincere. I am ready to move on, but need to face this one last moment so that I can walk away freely, knowing I tried even when my heart was no longer in it.

I want to honor God through this more than anything. At some point, I need to be able to say, "Enough, it's time to put this behind me."

((((((SMB)))))))



Agreed

It's still going on.It's just not exactly what he wants.

He will figure it out AFTER it's too late. I have no doubt. He will regret this even before the ink dries.

Just keep doing what you are doing. Plan SMB.

SMB,

He considers this an acceptable behavior in recovering his relationship with his you?

"The first possible answer being that I would be willing to do things only up to a certain point and then expect
you to accept that I will not go any further."

This is the emotional abuse he's been giving to you for too much of the M. I can see why you had to wait so long to even get the kitchen repaired. He's practically admitted via e-mail to what an inconsiderate jerk he's been. And he still thinks it could be a consideration in R?

I say go ahead and send the e-mail with the 3 questions. That way you've appeased your conscience. KISS, keep it simple, sweetie. The less you say, the louder you speak.

Our God is an awesome God and you can always re-marry your H in the future if it's God's will. He'll make the changes in both of your hearts if you're (you and H) open to His Will. (and we know you are, the ? is whether H will be)

But with a response like his, you've got to protect your kids from their dad using the M like a revolving door.

I think you should keep contact with him to a minimum and continue to build your case. What he's done to his family is terrible and unacceptable and he has to realize it. You have got to keep your boundaries so he sees you as strong. Any other way and he won't respect you ever. You'll just be back to life lived out in the 1st possibility he stated.

You are an incredible, beautiful woman. Worthy and deserving of love and to be treated like the lady you are.

Be firm with him, SMB. Allow God to use you to bring your H back to him. Even if you have to use "tough Christian love".

Prayers,

Jewel

RMJ,

First of all, thank you for your kind words.

In WS's email, he was acknowledging that this is what he has done in the past (although he didn't express it very clearly, I knew what he was getting at.) He goes on to say that he will not do that this time, but instead will do anything and everything.

It just seems to me that these emails lack the emotion and passion that would be obvious if he really wanted ME back.

I am not interested in being patient through defogging, or him gradually falling back in love with me. I'm done with all that.

A lot has happened this weekend. It appears that my initial prayers may be being answered. I'm just not sure I want them answered any longer. I will post below WS's response. Then I will follow with a post of my response back to him, and then I'll post his response back again.

He is totally broken and remorseful.

Here's the response he sent to my asking three questions. Please read the next two posts before responding, because he goes on to explain these answers more.



The affair was over about a month ago, and I officially ended it a week and a half ago.

I’m not sure any one thing brought about my change of heart; I would attribute it to a compilation of everything the Holy Spirit has revealed to me, all weighing in together. I recently realized how half hearted I have been for the last five years. I have given nothing in our relationship over the past five years anything beyond half of my attention or half of my effort. I keep hearing the half truths I have told you in my head over and over and can only see P. W. (his sponsor from AA who died about 6 years ago) reminding me that half measures avail us nothing. It seems that nothing is what I have as a result. I also have spent many hours with my mom over the past few months and she keeps asking me if I really did all I could to work things out with you. She has had a hard time with all this and doesn’t like to see us where we are. She has been wearing me out with the questions. She has also helped me see that where I am is not where I want to be. The realization of how much I have been in denial caused me to start searching my heart again. There has not been one great event, only a process of unraveling truths during my conversations with God and others.

I admire your strength and understand your doubts. I am very sorry I gave what belonged to you alone, to another.

Though I understand you’re skeptical, I still love you.

Here's my reponse back to him. Ihave some quotes from his email, followed by my question or response to that particular issue.


WS,

The affair was over about a month ago, and I officially ended it a week and a half ago.
This confuses me. Either it was over a month ago or it was over a week and a half ago. Which is it? What is this suppose to mean?

Does this mean you never stopped seeing OW when you came home?

How and why has the affair ended now?

How long have you been involved with OW or anyone else? I want dates and what type of involvement (emotional, physical) including our dating time. No more vague answers on this. This is MY history, and I deserve to know the truth before I can decide how to proceed. I have a right to know how much of my marriage consisted of you being involved with her or anyone else.



I recently realized how half hearted I have been for the last five years. I have given nothing in our relationship over the past five years anything beyond half of my attention or half of my effort.
What happened 5 years ago to bring this about?



I keep hearing the half truths I have told you in my head over and over and can only see P. W. (WS's AA sponsor who died about 6 years ago) reminding me that half measures avail us nothing. It seems that nothing is what I have as a result.
I have thought of P. W. many times throughout these months and about how much his heart would be breaking over us.



I also have spent many hours with my mom over the past few months and she keeps asking me if I really did all I could to work things out with you.
It isn't whether you've done all you could....You have done nothing to work things out. I have done all I could. Did you tell your mom that?

The realization of how much I have been in denial caused me to start searching my heart again.
Whar did you find?


I admire your strength and understand your doubts.
I don't know why you thought I would be anything but strong. I have always been and will continue to be a strong woman. I leaned on you because you were my husband.


I am very sorry I gave what belonged to you alone, to another.
I am heartbroken.

Though I understand you’re skeptical, I still love you.
What does this mean anymore....I love you but I'm not in love with you?? I love you because you are the mother of my children?? I love you, but not in the way that a husband should love his wife (your words)?? I love you crazily, passionately, wildy, deeply?

What are your feelings for OW?





It was not the affair that devastated our marriage. I was ready to face that. I knew I could get past that, and I continued to love you in the deep way I always had. But over these last months, so much has happened that have hurt so deeply.

You taking DS out on his birthday and meeting her.
You having her write MY address and mail DS's birthday card (I am not stupid).
You buying frames for your martial arts certificates with her and putting MY son's certificate in one.
Her buying stuff for MY children when you "set up home".
You meeting with her when I would have been thrilled to get a call from you asking me to meet you at a hotel.
The lies.
The lies.
The lies. You call them half-truths. That is nothing more than a lie. If something is half true, then it is not true. A lie is a lie.
The manipulation.
You chose her over me.
You chose her over your children. No matter how you deceive yourself about this, you did.
You LEFT...twice.
You left emotionally many, many times.
You promised to provide for me always, and I gave up everything trusting that you would.
You promised to protect me always. But now at night, I have to get up alone and scared to see what that noise is or if DS really saw a man in our backyard.
Walking through the Green on our anniversary, sensing that you had been there with someone else.
You leaving work early so often to meet her. When all these years, you "just couldn't get away any earlier."
You fixing French toast with our family the way she made it for you.
You playing "Lips of an Angel" in MY home over and over.
You leaving me without a kitchen for 8 weeks.
You swearing at our kids.
You introducing songs to our children that were a part of your affair.
You saying our sex life was cold...that really hurt me.
You saying you haven't loved me for 13 years.
You saying you were just biding your time until the kids were grown. It was a matter of time before you left.
You saying I was a great mother, but as a wife, I really sucked a lot of the time.
You saying that no matter what you say or do, your heart is not in this marriage.
You saying that you came home only for the kids.
You using the beautiful Valentine gift you gave me as a way to be with her.
You using your daughter's birthday gift as a way to be with her.
You leaving our bed early in the morning so that you could call her or maybe you were meeting her.
You calling her just to hear her voice instead of calling me.
You moving us here so you could afford to leave.
You pretending to want to work on our marriage.
You going to counseling and twisting our history into something that is untrue.

I know this is hard to read, but I don't have the time to format different quotes. I hope you can follow it all. I have to leave for the morning, but I really want to get this posted.

Here is WS's last response.


BS,

The affair was over about a month ago, and I officially ended it a week and a half ago.

This confuses me. Either it was over a month ago or it was over a week and a half ago. Which is it? What is this suppose to mean?

I didn't mean for it to be confusing, officially meant to me that I told her, face to face, I would not ever see her again. A month ago I told her only that I wanted to stop seeing her for now.



Does this mean you never stopped seeing OW when you came home?

I did not see her any time I was back home.



How and why has the affair ended now?

I told her I wanted to contact my wife and try to restore my marriage and my family.



How long have you been involved with OW or anyone else? I want dates and what type of involvement (emotional, physical) including our dating time. No more vague answers on this. This is MY history, and I deserve to know the truth before I can decide how to proceed. I have a right to know how much of my marriage consisted of you being involved with her or anyone else.

She came into work (as a customer) the week of 2/26/07 and I had lunch with her. we spent the next 6 weeks talking and occasionally meeting for lunch. After that time it gradually became physical until we had sex.

I had lunch with her on 2 different occasions during our marriage, once approx 13 years ago when she dropped her dad off to pick up his car. and once about 7 years ago under the same circumstances. We only made small talk on both of those occasions. There was never anyone, physical or emotional,during our dating period, or marriage until this time.


I recently realized how half hearted I have been for the last five years. I have given nothing in our relationship over the past five years anything beyond half of my attention or half of my effort.

What happened 5 years ago to bring this about?

I honestly felt like you no longer wanted me, as if you were only going through the motions with me. I pulled away and stopped giving.

I also realize that at the same time I began to pull away from God.



I keep hearing the half truths I have told you in my head over and over and can only see P. W. reminding me that half measures avail us nothing. It seems that nothing is what I have as a result.

I have thought of P. W. many times throughout these months and about how much his heart would be breaking over us.

So have I.



I also have spent many hours with my mom over the past few months and she keeps asking me if I really did all I could to work things out with you.

It isn't whether you've done all you could....You have done nothing to work things out. I have done all I could. Did you tell your mom that?

Yes I did. Thats why she kept asking, she knew. My mom, of all the people, is the one who has helped me see. The person I have hated through these years, how ironic.



The realization of how much I have been in denial caused me to start searching my heart again.

Whar did you find?

I found out how hard my heart had become and how lonely and broken it had been, because I pulled away. I could not see that I blamed you for how I felt and that I closed myself off, became angry, lied to you, and justified an affair.


I admire your strength and understand your doubts.

I don't know why you thought I would be anything but strong. I have always been and will continue to be a strong woman. I leaned on you because you were my husband.





I am very sorry I gave what belonged to you alone, to another.

I am heartbroken.



Though I understand you’re skeptical, I still love you.

What does this mean anymore....I love you but I'm not in love with you?? I love you because you are the mother of my children?? I love you, but not in the way that a husband should love his wife (your words)?? I love you crazily, passionately, wildy, deeply?

I kept erasing this line of my email and adding it back in over and over because I was expecting this reply. I could actually hear it in my head while I wrote it. I said it anyhow. It may never mean much to you again without actions behind it, but I can't put actions behind it if you won't let me.



What are your feelings for OW?

Right now only guilt for having used her and hurting her through all of this.



It was not the affair that devastated our marriage. I was ready to face that. I knew I could get past that, and I continued to love you in the deep way I always had. But over these last months, so much has happened that have hurt so deeply.



You having her write MY address and mail DS's birthday card (I am not stupid).-

*******************************************************it was my new secretary that sent this card.

You buying frames for your martial arts certificates with her and putting MY son's certificate in one.

******************************************************hard to believe, but that was all me!!!

You chose her over your children. No matter how you deceive yourself about this, you did.

*********************************************************you were right.

You going to counseling and twisting our history into something that is untrue.

*********************************************it is amazing how fast I destroyed something that took over 20 years to build.




I'm not sure what else to say other than I will wait for you.

I will wait for you,

I have a busy day, but I need to find some quiet place to pray.

SMB,
Don't have alot of time right now, but wanted to send my support.

Alot HAS happened.

Some of what he is saying now will change even more when he comes completely out of the fog. That takes some time.

He will eventually see that OW had a choice and he should feel no guilt over her. He probably will come to dislike her as my FWH has. He'll see it for what it was and if she was a friend or even a decent individual, she would not have gotten involved with him. He will see that soon enough.

I'm sure your head is reeling.

Be back later.

Sending prayers for you and your family.

Prayers going up for SMB and for WH. ((SMB))

SMB...my thoughts have not changed...this "man" is not worthy of any more of your time.
What you will most likely find is that she either broke it off with him...or she did something to piss him off. Either way...I don't believe for a minute that God is working on his heart. I would suggest that you start reading some of your older posts to see how many times you have allowed yourself to come back to a place where you are considering giving him the benefit of the doubt....he doesn't deserve it.

Lay it out there for him right now....post nuptial agreement giving you 80% of everything....an accurate accounting of finances immediately...ask him where he has hidden money (because you know he has). If the Holy Spirit is truly working through him, he will gladly provide you with this information. But he won't....watch and learn what this deceitful man is capable of.

I am sorry for your pain...but there comes a time to take out the trash before it stinks up the home.

SMB,

Prayers for you today....and for your WH and children.

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{SMB WH Family}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

TAKE YOUR TIME. TRUST GOD to reveal the truth. LISTEN for HIS PEACE in your heart.

AMAZING.......You are totally justified to dump him. Maybe you should. Five years from now, how would that appear as you were looking back?

Would there be regrets?....

......Or might your sitch be like Princessmeggy's?

It's YOUR choice.....we're here to support you.

Ace

(((SMB)))

I have often dreamed of being in your situation. Here are some of my random thoughts.

I, like Michele, don't like that he only feels guilt towards OW. He did not take advantage of her, she knew what she was doing. That was a main issue of mine with WH after D-Day. He had this warped romantic view of OW when I saw her as a predator towards my family.

Another thing, your WH only broke it off a week ago. I, personally, had no interest in dealing with WH's withdrawal (once he had moved out). Initially, after d-day, I understood withdrawal and would have worked through it. Once he had moved out and put us through months of crap, he was going to have to handle withdrawal on his own.

You have grown and changed in these months by yourself, correct? I would let WH spend a little time alone. Let's see if he can handle it or does he go running back to OW.

I think, inititally after D-day, there is a panic and we want to keep the WS around at any cost. After they have gone and we have handled it, there is a freedom in that. We know we will not curl and die without them. We don't have to settle for crumbs.

Your WH says he will wait, will he be doing anything constructive during his time or will he just sit around with his thumb stuck up his rear whining about how crappy his life has become.

I was very eager to see who my WH turned out to be after his veer off on his journey. I know that I grew, I wanted to see how he would change from his experience. Don't deny you WH the chance to finish his growth. Don't bale him out of his mess, let him clean it up himself.

I agree with alot that MEDC says, I also 100% understand your desire to restore your family. I still have that desire. I just don't have the desperation anymore that would lead me to settle for less than I deserve.

Keep praying (((SMB)))

[quoteAnother thing, your WH only broke it off a week ago. I, personally, had no interest in dealing with WH's withdrawal (once he had moved out). Initially, after d-day, I understood withdrawal and would have worked through it. Once he had moved out and put us through months of crap, he was going to have to handle withdrawal on his own.

[/quote]
This is exactly how I feel. I've had enough crap thrown in my face. I am not willing at all to sit by and watch him miss OW. In the beginning, I was prepared for withdrawal, although I knew it would be painful for me to deal with. But I don't have the energy for that mess any longer.

[quoteI agree with alot that MEDC says, I also 100% understand your desire to restore your family. I still have that desire. I just don't have the desperation anymore that would lead me to settle for less than I deserve.
[/quote

This is my struggle. I do not have the desire to restore my family. But I see all of my initial prayers possibly coming to fruition...all after I let go, moved on, and didn't look back any longer.

I am just afraid to make the wrong decision where my kids are concerned. I know how difficult this has been for them, and I know that if they can have an intact, loving family again, that is what is best for them.

If I make this decision totally about me, then I would walk away right this second. It is so hard when your choices will affect the lives of 5 people depending on you. I keep praying but cannot hear God's voice.