smb, I feel the same way you do.

The not knowing if there is really no contact drives me crazy. WH has a company phone & she has the number. I can't get that one changed. If I ask, he tells me he doesn't want to talk about her. He's gotten so good at lying that I don't know if he's telling me the truth about NC. My WH has been home since 5-31-07 & I'm still waiting for things to get better. Only thing is she went "fatal attraction" on him, threatening suicide so NC supposedly started 7-9-07. He hints that my asking about OW makes him think about her & that he doesn't any other time. Yea, riiiiight!!! I am going to use your list of thoughts (in my own words, of course) to try to explain to WH why I need to know this stuff. I hope it helps. I know that he kept the copy of trueheart's letter to WS's in the camper where he sleeps. I sometimes think I'll lose it before withdrawal is done.

Did you actually see this letter that he supposedly sent, or did he just TELL you that he sent it?

Every dime I have says he never sent nothin'.

This should be a dealbreaker, too. If he can't send the wh*re a letter telling her to get lost and just gets angry and defensive when his WIFE asks him to do so - well, what does that tell you?

Yes, he's saying and doing all the right things - except for this little teeny-tiny one.

Refusal to send a NC letter is one of the biggest of big red flags. Please keep your guard up.
Mulan

Mulan,

No, I did not see the letter. All I have to go on is what he is telling me. Yes, I know, doesn't count for much. And even if he did write one, my guess is that it wasn't the "type" that I would have been OK with.



I

SMB, if this is the case and your gut tells you this, then an appropriate NC letter is in order.

Out of respect for you, a letter should be written together and mailed BY YOU. That is the first step in rebuilding trust. He should also pledge to never be in contact with her FOR LIFE. And of course, you should be told. This is information about your life to which you have a RIGHT TO KNOW. He is the LAST PERSON WHO IS QUALIFIED TO DETERMINE WHAT IS OR ISN'T IN YOUR BEST INTEREST TO KNOW. The rapist does not get to decide what information is "too upsetting" for his victim to know. You MUST know about any attempted contacts so you can PROTECT YOURSELF.

SMB,

My WH did the same thing for several months - ILY all of the time, calling me several times a day, acting happy, he even played a VM for me where OP was threatening to F his world. I thought we were totally in recovery and nothing to worry about. Five months later I find tht contact never did end. Be careful, they put up a good front....

SMB,

My H and I were both on the phone with that OW confirming No Further Contact after D-Days #1 and #2. H was being the perfect recovering H....remorseful, bad mouthing that OW, showering me with attention, dates, talking times, SF often, the works.

6 weeks later I found the "just seein' how she's doin" email account in hotmail that does not require a confirming secondary account....and they'd been drafting and deleting emails to each other....but they had forgotten to delete the most recent ones.

So when I typed in the addy I had found and made him put in the password, he finally did it, but said "see.....there's nothing there" while he clicked the sent and inbox files.

But he got nervous when I took the mouse and clicked into the draft file and ....Wah Laaaaa! Lookkee what we found!!!! The one I found said he would wait patiently for her if she would do the same.....that they might be able to meet soon. Aaaargh <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Y'know, SMB, he wrote a no contact email that we both hit send on that very night. (#3) But because he did not make any of his usual typos, she thought I had written it. She admitted that to me a few months later when I was trying to be her friend....to help HER with HER marriage so she wouldn't covet mine.

Have you read my Mr. Romance Saga......all the sordid details are there.

Finally, after D-Day #4, when WH saw how upset I was, he offered to hand-write another NO-Contact letter, which we mailed to her PO box number after I confirmed it was not closed yet...and I included a copy of HNHN. She claimed she read it and learned a lot....but she lies, so who knows?

SMB, like Mel said, your WH should write a NC letter with you out of respect for you. If he doesn't want to, there is an obvious reason. He cannot begin earning the "F" for "Former WH" until he writes and sends the 'NC for life' letter and then follows through for months an years to come.

Please learn from my mistakes. False recovery sucks. I've had 3 of them and our M will not survive another.

Ace

SMB,

Do you want to feel safe? Do you feel safe? Do you understand what it means for a BS to feel safe?

Have you identified your personal and M boundaries to yourself and disclosed them to your H? Will he help you have real closure?

You will go through several more stages in your recovery. If you get a chance, read the link about the stages of grieving. It maybe a good time to show him Trueheart's letters. That is also in my sig link.

Watch his reaction to the letter. That may tell you where he is at in this recovery timeframe. You will both be traveling on it from different starting points and at different speeds.

I recommend you call Steve H @ MB for a recovery plan.

JMHO,
L.

Hey Sexymamabear,

Did your H write the NC letter? Have you approved it? Has it been mailed/delivered?

How's it going?

Ace

Ace,

Thanks for checking up on me. I must confess, I have been avoiding posting. This NC stuff is really getting to me. I just need to tell H that I absolutely NEED this, but I am running from this confrontation (yes, I avoid conflict, obviously).

We had our second MC session yesterday. I had hoped this would be dealt with more, and a treatment plan would be discussed. However, I think our C sees himself as a sounding board more than anything. He gave us an assignment last time to go over ENs (not MB list), which we did. And we discussed them again in session yesterday. So then he gives us an assignment for this week to practice talking for 5 minutes (one of us) while the other listens, then the listener restates what he/she heard. Then switch roles. This all sounds peachy, except, in my mind, there are more important issues right now. Like: NC, setting up accountability, implementing actions that will make me feel safe and begin to rebuild trust. When talking about cell phone records and other kinds of accountability, C tells me that although those things might be reasonable right now, I will at some point have to let that all go...I DON'T THINK SO. I don't intend to ever blindly trust again. That would be sheer stupidity.

My H continues to read SAA, and I am sitting back (thinking I am being patient, but am probably just avoiding conflict). I keep hoping that he will come to me and say, "hey I read such and such in SAA and I think we should do that." I realize, however, that I need to suck it up and approach him with what I NEED and stop waiting for him to figure it out.

I am considering changing MC. I met a lady through a mutual close friend. This lady, I'll call her J, was a BS about 4 years ago. She and H have recovered the M and are deeply in love. She told me some of the things her C required (sounds very MBer style--NC, accountability, cell phones, calendar, daily calls, no LB, even Plan A style while active A). She knows both counselors and really, really wants me to see the one they went to. It will be more challenging to see him in comparison to the one we see now, but I think we may be wasting our time with our present C. In fact, I believe I am going to get very frustrated with it all since he really isn't requiring ANYTHING. OK, maybe it's my job to require some things. But I want a MC who does expect something from my H.

Our MC has pretty much told me that I'm just going to have to get over it. Not in those words, but he doesn't seem to take the approach that my H needs to be actively doing things that begin to rebuild trust. He seems to take the approach that I'm just going to have to get to that point.

Ok, so I've talked myself into calling the other MC. He is quite a bit further away and he is not covered on insurance like our present MC, but I think he can really help us HEAL, not just move on. I will call today.

J also said that they went at least once a week and at the beginning twice a week. Our present MC sees us about every 2 weeks because he is so booked. Two weeks is a long time when it seems there is so much that needs to happen in this early stage.

Talking through this is helping. I have got to start taking action. I am going to get this rolling today! I will make new MC appointment today. I will write down thoughts to share with my H tonight that will include new MC and need for NC letter. Do I ask that we read SAA together or let him get through it on his own first? Do I request cell phone records now or wait for new MC (who will require this)?

Thanks for "talking me though" all this. I am a slow learning sometimes. Well, not really a slow learner...just a big chickensh]t I guess.

H has continued to be affectionate, supportive, attentive, and home a lot more often. I do feel we can get to the point of healing. But I recognize now that there are some actions that I am responsible for, mostly expressing my needs. I know I am not being fair to H if I don't express what I need to heal.

Just sent H a short email:

"I hope your day goes well for you. I will be thinking of you and praying that God will bless you in some way today.

I am hoping this evening we can spend a little time alone talking. Can we plan on that?

It was wonderful starting our day out together."


So, tonight I get some courage and state my needs.

Just left a message for the new MC. I am hoping he will be willing to see us before we leave on our family vacation next Thursday.

Now I just have to get my thoughts in order for conversation with H tonight. I think these three issues are all I want to cover:

1) Change of counselor

2) NC Letter

3) Plan of action if contact is made

Now I need to write why these things are important to me. If I don't write it down, I will lose my train of thought and my mind will go blank...duh, duh, duh, I dunno.

#1 Need C to help us design a plan to rebuild trust with active steps we can take to get there. New MC was recommended by someone who has personally been through this and healed their relationship.

#2 NC letter is for me. It demonstrates to me your commitment to our marriage and your willingness to break the bond between you and her. It is an act of respect toward me by putting my needs above all others and will bring closure for me in that area of our recovery.

#3 A Plan if contact is made is necessary to protect our marriage from secrets between her and you. Knowing that you will call me immediately demonstrates your desire to put our marriage first and that you want me to trust you. If I know that you will tell me, I can stop worrying/wondering every single day about whether contact was attempted. Plan needs to include that you will call immediately if contacted is attempted/made by her and that you will call me if you have desire to contact her. I commit to calmly responding to you and will appreciate your honesty and openness.



How am I doing here, folks? Should I write this out for him to read? (as I am a writer, that is my preference) or is that "taking the easy way"?

Orchid,

Thank you for responding. I value your insight so much.

Yes, I do want to feel safe; and no, right now I don't. Can you explain what it means for a BS to feel safe? That might give me clarity.

As far as boundaries, what kind of things does that include. Obviously, no contact--but we really don't ever know that for sure, do we? From what I have read here, many BSs thought they were in wonderful recovery, even with NC letters being sent, and still the A was going on. Another boundary would be honesty and openness, and not feeling like he needs to protect me from any truth or that any "small" truth is not that big of a deal--honesty and oppenness no matter what. What are some other examples of boundaries. I realize I need to come up with my own, but I need some ideas to get my mind stirring.

I will print out Trueheart's letter and give it to him tonight. I did read it when I read your post. I will go back and read the stages of grieving again, too.

I suggest you get $185. )or whatever it is) together for a counseling appointment with the Harleys. There are things that your husband needs to understand that he needs to hear from someone else.

Your recovery is a bit too wishy-washy for my taste. There needed to be a NC letter approved and sent by YOU. He needs to be an open book and give you his passwords, account for his time, and have a plan on what action to take if the OW contacts him.

MicheleG,

Thank you for your kind words. You have a very encouraging way about you that helps me know I am not walking alone.

I do continue to hope that his reading SAA will bring him to a point of understanding that not telling me about any contact is NOT PROTECTION, but rather another blow to me.

I will be talking with him tonight and would appreciate prayers for me to have courage to state my needs with clarity of mind and for him to grasp what I am sharing and be willing to meet my needs in a loving, committed way.

I dealt with the STD testing immediately. I have a long-term relationship with my OBGYN (6 high-risk pregnancies over 17 years) and he got me in the same day and called with results as soon as they came in. He also prayed with me while I cried in his office (with a stupid drape over my legs---ugghh!) He's a wonderful doc.

I will address NC letter tonight.

SMB


In the days, weeks, months to come, this would be a good thing for you to improve in yourself. I am also a CA. And so is my H. I know how difficult is to bring up touchy subjects. But if we don't bring this stuff up how will we ever communicate our needs? It's time for radical honesty with your H and with yourself.

Don't trade calm for recovery.

I think writing things down like you have is a good approach for CAs. There's no emotion or body language interfering with the message. (Some of the deepest talks I've had with H over this mess were via text.) It also allows you to keep your thoughts concise and to the point. I think men prefer that.LOL


P.S.
A little advice about A talks with FWS. Keep to the point when possible, keep it to a reasonable time limit (WSs have a difficult time discussing this...most hate it). So keep it as calm, short and "pleasant" as you can. Thank him at the end. This all sets up future discussions. He won't want to run and hide when you say you need to talk. KWIM?

My prayers are with you.

Heeeey Sexymamabear,

What's happening? How's it going? Looking forward for an update soon.

Ace

Hey Sexymamabear,

Y'been lurking around the MB woods lately? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

How's it going? Please check in no matter what's been happening....we care.

Ace <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

What Ace said.