I don't see any remorse in your words. I see most of what you have written to be all about YOU [the TAKER]:

- You complain about your husband's perceived short comings
- You continue to justify and rationalize your affairs
- You talk about only YOUR needs
- You talk about your serial cheating in a manner that borders bragging

Where are your threads where you ask [the GIVER]:

- How do I make this up to my husband
- How can I make what I have done right
- How do I help HIM heal once I tell him
- How can I make this a marriage that will meet HIS needs
- How can he ever forgive me

Kiwi,

Oh no! Nothing like that. Just got whipped with a belt and once hit over the head with an empty plastic soda bottle. And the fact that punishments were more consistent with his moods than our (my siblings and me) actual behavior. And like I said, he got help and changed.

Resilient,

When I said my kids are doing great I meant they are able to behave without being spanked or having any physical punishment. They also do very well in school and are both in gifted programs. Obviously they miss their dad because he's been gone so long. And yeah, I'm sure they know there is some discord, although it would be there even if I never cheated. They have no reason to suspect infidelity, though, and if they did they'd say so..that's how my kids are. I'm not saying this to justify anything because I have already quit.

Hmmm, sounds close to me. I have read that Pep, just didn't connect the dots. What do you think APH?

Larry

Uh oh. I am going to go get a very, very large cupa and then sit down to see if I can digest one of FH's looooooong epistles. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You started out real good FH, now I gotta read the rest of it. Sheesh, and people complain that ****I**** am loooooong winded. Sheesh, mutter under my breath, waphouka......

Larry

Aph (like the name, BTW),

I started reading over your thread, which somehow digressed, and decided to post based on your original question.

How does one work on oneself? I can't say what that means for you, but for me it was to solidify my values which had subtly changed from when I started clinging to them years ago. For me that was learning about boundaries and forgiveness. It meant finding HAPPINESS, which had eluded me for so long and I had been blaming everyone but me. Being at peace with my decisions to stay with my DH despite our past, and learning not to relive and requestion my decisions. Learning to communicate, instead of becoming defensive and fighting. All things I'm still working on, but I'm so much better than what I was. And the results of my hard work are in my M, and my kids. I'm lucky to be aware of my positives, instead of focusing on my negatives. That is what working on myself means to me.

Resilient,

I'm showing remorse by changing my habits, trying to learn and apply what I learn, and trying to prepare for the day I tell him and what happens after. It's the changes in my behavior that are important, not emotional displays. I've got two kids to take care of and I have to remain functional.


There isn't any way to make this up to him or make what I did right, so I feel it would be stupid to say I want to do that. I can only help him recover. And I do want to learn about that, so I'm buying more books people have recommended like After the Affair and Surviving the Affair. I do want to help him heal once I tell him.

I can't make this right. I can only make right what I'll do in the future. That's why I'm here to figure out how to fix myself.

I do try to throw in a compliment here and there when I talk to him on the phone or in email. He is so focused on jobhunting he doesn't want to do his EN survey right now and I don't blame him. Right now what he needs is for me to not bug him about relationship stuff so he can focus on his job search. When I started calling him every day to talk, he didn't like that. So I'm at a loss as to what else I can do on that front until we can be together.

As for making justifications, rationalizations - I need to figure out why so I don't keep doing this. In trying to find the right "why" I will inevitably come up with a few wrong whys.

And sometimes I will describe patterns of FORMER thinking that don't necessarily represent how I'm thinking these days, but I'll try to make the distinction more clear.

Pep and Larry,

At first I would have said no way I'm a freeloader because it's not my current mindset, but then I thought about it some more. I know there was a time when I was a buyer but I started freeloading when I felt helpless to change anything. And I know I want to do more than just freeload now.

Aph-

Do you FEEL any remorse/regret for what you've done? Does knowing that you've done this make you sad/upset with yourself/feel horrible for having done so? You say that you can't make what you did 'right...and I agree. But do you wish you could?

THAT is what appears to be lacking on the remorse side of things, IMHO.

I don't get the feeling that you would change things if you could. I don't get the impression in what I've read that you regret what you've done.

You continue to attempt to justify what you've done. And that's why you're still getting everyone questioning your motives and actions.

On the children front...don't bet that they've got no reason to suspect infidelity. You'll hear countless stories here of people who grew up with infidelity going on in their home, and KNEW it...although their parents never thought that they did.

Heck...MY kids knew my wife was wayward just as much as I did. It wasn't until we could PROVE it that anyone could do something about it.

Don't bet that they don't know. Don't bet that it ISN'T/HASN'T affected they way they think/feel/live. Its much, MUCH harder to hide than you likely realize.

They may never tell you what they know/suspect. Even if you ask. But it WILL affect their view of the world, their view of sex, their view of you, their view of their father, their view on marriage and marital vows...etc...

Aph...How long have you been a WW? In other words, when did the cheating begin?

Btw, I only asked about your relationship with your dad to find out where your skewed perception of men began...NOT at all for you to shift "blame" for your waywardness to your dad or your childhood...I just think it's good to understand the origin of your beliefs...To me, knowing where it began assists in CHANGING those beliefs today...

I also agree with the consensus here that you don't seem all that concerned about your husband and helping HIM...That is where your focus should be...But I think it's gonna be hard for you while you still seem okay with the idea of him being unfaithful to you...That's not uncommon btw, I did that too...I even tried to convince Mr. W to go and have an affair of his own...HOW SICK! IMO, you aren't out of the fog until the idea of that breaks your heart, terrifies and sickens you...I think this all seems less real to you because your husband doesn't yet KNOW...I pray for your change of heart and mind when that happens...

How long have you been involved with Secular Humanism? Did Christianity have any part in your past?

Mrs. W

FH,

Most of my totally off-topic responses about Secular Humanism I will include in another post with the title OFF TOPIC - Secular Humanism or something like that. In the meantime...


I don't mean to do that. I know from reading MB posts and watching the video (yes I watched) that this is something that will take years for him to
recover from. That's why I want to help him.


Well, first the 99.9% doesn't refer to how often I give in, just that whenever I give in, sex has something to do with it 99.9% of the time.

My intention is to figure out WHY I have weaknesses in this particular area that are not present in other areas of my life. Once I figure that out, I can find a way to behave differently in the future. The only thing that will convince my husband I'm serious is a change in my behavior. Crying and pretty speeches won't be enough, no matter how sincere. Like I mentioned, I have changed some habits and will change more once I figure out what to do.


Because they cheated in the past, therefore if it wasn't with me it would have been with someone else. I know that's no excuse. That was the rationalization I was using at the time NOT something I currently think.



The idea is for me to change the marriage (and me) in such a way that we don't have to hurt each other to achieve goals that make us happy.

Why should my husband forgive me? I have already changed my habits to protect my marriage in the future. Hopefully by the time I tell him I will have figured out the reasons why and how I can avoid bad choices in the future. And I'm willing to do anything he needs me to do to help him recover and ensure this won't happen again. I'd give him email passwords, a schedule of my day, a cell phone superglued to my hip, whatever he needs.


It is selfish if you or the other person is married. If you are single, then no, it isn't.

NAMBLA are pedophiles, not just gays. It should have been obvious I meant gay ADULTS.

As for AIDS, lesbians are less likely to spread AIDS than straight people so your logic doesn't follow. And avoiding hurt means taking precautions like using a condom. We don't say stop driving a car because you might kill someone. We say drive safely and wear a seat belt. Everything in life entails some risk.


That's true. It's just that when Secular Humanism comes up I feel like I have to be a representative of SecHum, and I know I haven't lived up to it. I don't want people using my bad behavior to attack SecHum, that's all.

Just one more point about the Constitution. Majority rule does not determine what it says because if it did, the Bill of Rights could be voted away state by state. The whole point is to have inalienable rights that can't be voted away. The text, supporting documents and precedent are what the Supreme Court uses to make their decisions and YES it is their job to interpret the Constitution. It's part of checks and balances. The judicial branch acts as a check against Congress to ensure that mob rule doesn't overrule individual liberty.

Thank you Larry and Ace. I have nothing to add but just wanted to let you know I'm still paying attention.

chobbs, yeah focusing on the positive is probably a good idea for me. Thanks.

Owl,

Yes I feel remorse and regret, and yes I wish I could do something to make it up to him. I sometimes cry about it but I can't do that all the time. I have two kids to take care of and all my relatives and close friends are out of state. I have to keep myself together.

Your point about the kids possibly knowing more than I think they do is well taken. I don't know what I can do about that now, though except not do it again. It's upsetting not being able to turn back the clock. And thank you.

MrsW,

It began maybe six years ago. It's been a long time.


Well, I know it would if it was something emotional and not purely physical. And a lot of things seem unreal. Starting my first affair was like stepping through a door to a completely different world and now I've stepped back into what should be familiar and feel like I'm in culture shock.

To answer your other questions, I found Secular Humanism 14 years ago, although it wasn't a conversion. It was something I already believed in years before I knew it had a name. I was a Christian as a child and took it very seriously until I started having doubts at age 10. For the next nine years I guess you could say I was on a quest to find the right religion for me...then decided I didn't like any of them.
And thank you.

Sometimes I hate this system. The form you submitted is no longer valid.

Back button usually takes you back to the previous screen and you can copy your post, back out, and resubmit.

But not this time.

Had a particularly good post for you, but I don't have the time to recreate it right now.

If I can find time, I will try again.

I should have learned to always compose in Word and paste into these infernal "timelimited" response boxes.

Later.

FH, Oh I know, I hate when that happens. I use notepad for long posts, usually.

Oh, hey, I thought of another reason my husband might want to forgive me. I'm my own initiator of my choice to quit. I did not have to get caught first. He didn't have to Plan A or Plan B me before I decided to quit. And when I tell him it will be because I want to tell him, not because he's dragging it out of me.

I just hope that doesn't hurt him more by making him think he was dumb for not catching me. But I had a lot of coaching from my first OM on how not to, so he really shouldn't.

Well, it depends on the male. Some males want to fight for their marriage. But after they succeed, they get a major let down.

Now I wonder who that happened to . . .

Larry

Hey guys I have a question...In trying to figure out the why in all this, would it do any good to think about how the first one started? I really don't think the others would have if not for the first, but if you think that'll just lead to me blaming the first OM instead of myself I won't waste time going down that road.

Aphaeresis - This concern about potentially blaming the OM is part of what my "lost" post was touching on. Perhaps I will try to recreate it in some abreviated fashion, but time to do so is a major constraint. In the meantime, here's something to ponder: The OM WAS responsible for his part in the adultery, but you always had the "option" to just say "no."

Why did you think you had the "option" to say "yes?"

Consider the following quotation in trying to answer that question as it is a part of the answer, but not the full answer.



I'm going to suggest something for you to think about that you won't want to think about, but you really should if you want to get to the bottom of the "why" question.


" decided I didn't like any of them

Having doubts, especially at age 10, about Christianity, is NORMAL. There is nothing wrong about having doubts IF they result in your sincerely seeking answers to them. Unfortunately, most of us are very susceptible to the prevailing philosophy in schools that Evolution, not God, is "the" answer to how we got here, and therefore, that belief in God and Christ is wrong. In my case, I was about age 16 when I rejected Christianity in favor of "Science," majored in College in Biology, and was a "confirmed" Agnostic (hedging my bets, or so I thought at the time) from 16 to 24.

It wasn't until I was planning to marry a Christian girl that I had to sit down and really examine the evidence FOR God and Christ and the evidence FOR random chance and "natural processes" as to which "held more water."

Let's be "honest" here for a minute, okay? What you "don't like" is irrelevant IF the thing you "don't like" is true regardless of your "likes or dislikes," don't you think?

You, like me, and everyone else, have Free Will to make choices. We can choose to say that the world is flat, even though the truth is that it is round. We can choose to say that gravity doesn't apply to us because we don't like it's "demands" on us and the "consequences" it imposes if we "do whatever we want to do," like step off the roof of a tall building "because I refuse to accept that gravity applies to me, or at least it doesn't apply THIS TIME."

You have been allowed to "do it your way" because God does NOT impose His will on you. He will change the hearts of all who will accept Christ so that they CAN choose to accept Christ and to seek after God, but He will NOT "force" anyone to do so. He gives everyone up until the time they die to make the choice. Some DO make it as a child and some, like the thief on the cross next to Christ, make it on their deathbed.

So, when you say you "decided I didn't like any of them," you are saying nothing different than many people say. THIS may be the "right time" for you to revisit that decision, as you need to revisit many of your decisions as you seek answers to the "why" question.

If you are at all interested in examining your areas of doubt about God and Christ, I will make myself available to you to try to talk about those doubts. It is obvious, don't you think, that Secular Humanism, by itself, is NOT the answer to your doubts either, because you did "trash" the tenets of that belief system too. So here you are, adrift once again. But consider this, Secular Humanism does not believe in "sin" because it does not believe in God. Sin is the opposite of holiness, and if there is no "holiness" there cannot be sin. What IS "sin?" Sin is disobedience to God. Without God, there can be no sin.

Why? Because God is Sovereign and as sovereign Lord, HE determines what is and what is not "sin." When we reject God as our Lord, there is a "vacancy" created for that position in our lives. WHO sits on the "sovereign throne" of our lives? WHO determines what is "right and wrong?" Ultimately this is an issue of "control." Who is actually "in control" of not only our lives, but in control of everything? WE do NOT control gravity, it exists independently of us and it WILL affect us even if we deny it. We WILL eventually die, and the reality of "what comes after death" WILL affect us, no matter how much we might want to deny it because it, like gravity, is true and operates independently of our "likes."

Aphaeresis, we can choose to apply some set of "moral standards" to our lives and try to live our lives according to them. We can try to be "good," but it eventually comes down to "most of the time." Not one of us "perfect." In your case, you argue that in all areas EXCEPT for fidelity in marriage, you have been "good." That argues for "grading on the curve" when it comes to sin, something that is "attractive" to humans since we ALL sin in one way or another from time to time. What we don't like, though, is that God does NOT "grade on the curve." God grades on a "pass/fail" system that "levels the playing field" for all humans and we DO NOT "make the grade" by our own efforts to "be good" or to "earn" His forgiveness of sin.

As much as you seem to hope that your husband will decide to forgive you and to remain married to you, that decision is NOT in your control. That's "scary," isn't it? You seem to be a woman who has prided herself in being in control, of deciding things for yourself, of vigorously defending your right to be "sovereign" in your life and in your choices. "Giving up control" probably scares you, if you think about it. But scared or not, you WILL be giving up control of your marriage. The "big question" with respect to that will be WHO will you be giving up that control to? The answer, from where I sit, is you will be giving it up to both God and to your husband. But the "bottom line" is that YOU will not be the one who is in control, you will be the one "along for the ride" and your "need" to be in control of things will chafe mightily against the "surrender" that will be needed.

So let's get back to the "why's" of your choices then, and your choices now.

Why do you exist? What is your purpose for existing? Why are you married, especially to THIS man who is your husband? Why does marriage even exist? What does "servanthood" mean to you as a "why" you do the things you do? Why was your choice of adultery "wrong?" Why should your husband forgive you rather than "give up" as he did with his first wife?

Now is NOT the time to attempt to address all of "his problems," no matter how real they may be. IF he agrees to attempt to recover your marriage, that will be the time to begin addressing HIS issues, because you will both need to make some fundamental changes.

What do you think? This IS a "crisis time." Isn't NOW the time to really answer the question "is this all there is?"

Thanks for recreating, FH. I'm praying for you, Aph.

Ace

P.S. How was your 'Holy Smokies' Anniversary trip, FH? Maybe you could update on the Married 30+ years magic? thread on the recovery forum.....thanks for the list, too.

P.P.S. Sorry for the mini-TJ, Aph

Larry - how's that large "cupa" holding out?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />