ForeverHers,
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Aphaeresis is not, despite claims to the contrary, surrendering herself to the tenets of her chosen faith. She continues to "pick and choose" which tenets apply to her and which she will rationalize away.
And you are basing that on what? My past behavior that I've already given up?
Aphaeresis - I'd tell you to go back and read the "principles" of Secular Humanism that you say you embrace, and then look at how well you are adhering to them NOW. But that would seem pointless as you continue to interpret them as a "philosophy" not a "faith" that "commands" you. You "philosophize" what you want to "obey" and what you don't. In short, they are all "relative" you and what you decide you want to do. I could discuss your "hair splitting" attempt to rationalize "philosophy versus faith," but you have repeatedly demonstrated that there is no point in doing so, you will choose to do whatever YOU choose to, whenever you choose to do it. One more time, Aphaeresis, given that "philosophy," WHY should your husband decide to do anything other than divorce you, especially with the "philosophy" that you will explore different things and NOT have "absolute" beliefs that TRUMP any "philosophical change" that might strike you in the future?
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All attempts to try to reach Aphaeresis with some understanding of what she is going to be unleashing on her husband have been met with resistance or excuses.
You are way out in left field with that one. I have no idea where you got that.
And that's the point, Aph. You have "no idea." And you won't listen to those who DO have an idea because they have actually lived through it and know what is coming.
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She wants to wait until he has a job and then will tell him. What she doesn't understand is that it is very likely that his job won't last long after he is flattened emotionally by the nuclear holocaust she will be unleashing on him. MANY Betrayed Spouses, if not all, found it EXTREMELY difficult to "function" well at work, or at best could function in "short bursts." But the emotional onslaught is overwhelming and almost EVERYTHING triggers huge emotional swings and resultant feelings of things like "why should I be concerned about working, there's nothing left to work FOR." Intense anger rages and alternates with intense bouts of crying, even tougher for a man who may have been told that "real men don't cry."
Oh, so it's hopeless is it? I thought you agreed that I *should* tell him. Now you're coming up with reasons why I shouldn't. Make up your mind! I'm well aware of the symptoms of depression because I've had them before and my husband seems to have them now because of the job situation. I get that this will depress him. I'd have to be a moron not to.
One more indication that you really don't "get it." I said NOTHING about NOT telling your husband. What I said is that your "plans" are most often reflective of excuses for not doing something. Since you have decided that his having a job is very important to him and will wait to tell him until he has one, legitimate excuse or not, the logical question is if he doesn't find a job for a LONG time, when will you tell him? The second question is that when you wait and tell him after he has a job, and your "revelation" destroys his ability to HOLD that job, how do you intend to intend to help him through yet another destruction of his life cause by you?
You "SEE" what I said as "reasons why FH thinks you shouldn't tell." That's what I said earlier about your "filtering" everything through your WS "lenses." You don't HEAR what people are saying, you twist it to what you want to hear.
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Experience has shown that very few, if any, Wayward Spouses truly understand the depth of the pain they unleash through adultery. Some who have been successful in recovering their marriages DO come to understand a good part of it, but only after a long time in recovery. That's partly why a common "lament" of many recovering Wayward Spouses is "why can't you just get over it already?!" and "I don't want to talk about it anymore."
And how many of them actually talked to BS's or read boards like this one BEFORE the big reveal? I'm really getting tired of being treated like an idiot. I am well aware that it will take him about two years to recover. I've said this more than once. And I already know not to say things like "can't you just get over it already" because I've been reading and I'm not a complete moron. Your entire post is one giant insult to my intelligence and I'm not sure I feel like reading your posts anymore.
Your not "feeling like" something is at the root of the problem, Aph. You base so many of your choices on your FEELINGS and what you WANT, not what is needed.
ASSUMING that your husband chooses to attempt recovery rather than divorce and your propensity to attack anyone or anything that you perceive as telling you that you are "wrong" in what you are thinking or doing, you seem to think that TIME (your attachment to '2 years') is the "key" to recovering what YOU now want…your marriage.
You are not a "complete moron" Aphaeresis. You ARE several things and it comes through clearly in what you post. The problem is that several of those things define who you ARE and how you relate to others, and they are essentially "fogbound" and "based in lack of actual experience." The only real "actual experience" that you will bring to recovery with your husband is that you've gathered "more sexual experience" FOR him. He will see that clearly, that it was all about helping him and not satisfying your own wants and desires. "Props" for deciding to stop extramarital sex NOW. But why should we, much less your husband, believe that your current "philosophy" about adultery is NOT "subject to change" in the future and that "parochial FIDELITY and exclusivity" to one's spouse IS "until DEATH do us part, no matter what"? After all, it IS only a "philosophy," not a "binding faith."
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What they continue to not understand is that Recovery is in the hands of the Betrayed Spouse. It is the BS who decides "how much information is enough and how many details they need" and how many times they need to go back over already inquired about areas. It's all part of THEIR healing process. But some WS's want to be in control of recovery in much the same way they were in control of who they had an affair with and what they did or didn't do in that affair.
And you've already judged me as being this person. Well I'm not trying to "control" anything. I'm trying to understand how to HELP him. Big difference.
Well, I hope your protestation is true. But we'll wait and see. Up to now you have chosen to "control" things and have based those choices on what you think will "work" for your marriage. That's fine up to a point, but also choose to attack everyone who say things you don't like and accuse them of "ulterior motives" so you DON'T have to examine your own "core beliefs," or "philosophies."
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Therefore, since she has such a strong bias against anything "religious," and especially against Christianity, she has chosen to attack me and any attempts that I have made to "hold her accountable to her chosen faith."
No, you have mischaracterized and attacked my PHILOSOPHY (NOT faith). You don't even understand it, so how can you hold me accountable to it? No, what you were trying to do was convert me to Christianity, but you don't want to admit it now that you see it won't work.
Aphaeresis, this is pathetic. It is unimportant if *I* hold you accountable to your "philosophy." It is only important that YOU hold yourself accountable to it, but you don't. You "pick and choose" which of the "philosophies" apply to you and "when" they apply or when they can be discarded in favor of you doing whatever you feel like doing at the time. They are, in short, "relative," not "absolute."
That's the equivalent of a believer saying that the 10 Commandments are really the 10 "Philosophies" or "Suggestions." "There is NOTHING that sets the Commandments above personal choice. The Commandments have NO inherent "power" or "right of command" in and of themselves."
Neither do your Secular Humanism "philosophies," or "suggestions." Those choices by people to limit them to "philosophies" or "nice ideas as to how to live one's life" are INDIVIDUAL choices to obey or disobey as they see fit. There is NO "greater authority" that has the RIGHT to command beyond the "philosophies" and no "judge" of right and wrong other than the individual himself or herself.
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What has resulted from this is that Aphaeresis is pretty much back to where she was when this thread began. She will do whatever she thinks is "okay with her" and will reject any idea that she doesn't like.
As opposed to what? Doing everything you tell me? Let me tell you something, I have read two of Dr. Harley's books and most of the articles on the site. I'm just as capable of learning from books as anyone else. In fact, I'm thinking maybe I should just stick to the books and let you bicker amongst yourselves, since you seem to do that so well.
By all means, stick to the books. Don't listen to anyone who has actually APPLIED the thoughts and ideas and learned what does and doesn't apply to a successful recovery effort. You can read all you want, and that is good and recommended. But in the end, you can only control your own actions and what you choose to DO. We are observing your "choices" through your postings and seeing them through the eyes of those who have actually DONE what was necessary. Some have been successful in recovering their marriages and some have not. The "books" are NOT
the answer. Truly changed lives, both the WS and the BS, are what saves marriages when they WORK at those changes and make them permanent parts of a "new life."
You seem to have all the answers, so what difference does it make what anyone might say while trying to help your MARRIAGE survive the most devastating thing that one spouse can do to their spouse?
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So the answer to her question; "What does working on myself mean?" is that it was never a true request to begin with. She is only going to do what she feels like doing and will NOT consider looking at core issues that might actually be beneficial to change.
Actually, I have a thread that discusses core issues or possible core issues but you chose to ignore it.
Of course I chose to ignore it. You have made it abundantly clear that you are not interested in anything that I might say and you already have "all the answers." So why should
I spend my time attempting to help where help is not wanted?
You see the "boogey man" of someone wanting to "convert you." That is correct, but it is NOT to Christianity that I would like to see you "convert." It is to a loving, caring, faithful, "until death do us part, for better or for worse, in sickness and in health, for richer or for poorer," self-sacrificing of YOUR wants and needs to what your husband needs" sort of "conversion" that I'd like to see. If you chose to accept Christ, that would be great for your soul, but that's a "pointless exercise" because you don't believe you HAVE an eternal soul, let alone that there IS a God who IS the one true judge of "good and bad."
You think that the existence of He11 would "prove" that any God who existed would be, therefore, "bad" and not worthy of BEING God. But you steadfastly refuse to examine the facts and find ways to reject them out of hand BECAUSE to embrace them would mean that you would have to subject your own wants and desires to someone who really DOES have the right to command you, and to command all people everywhere.
So, given that, why would I seek to convert you? It is NOT up to any Christian to "convert" anyone. That "task" is up to God. All a Christian is "required to do" is to stand ready to answer the question "why do YOU believe what you believe."
That question applies equally to YOU. "Why do you believe what you believe?" You respond by saying that you don't believe, you philosophize. You seek "new truths" as long as they fit with what YOU want.
THAT is why I keep asking you when you are going to submit yourself and your life TO the "commands" of your chosen faith, or Secular Humanism philosophy, if you prefer.
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Until then, she has made her "do it my way" stance clear enough and it's pointless to offer advice where advice is not wanted
There is a difference between giving advice and giving orders. I will take advice if it's backed up by good, sensible arguments. I will not take orders no matter how many insults you back them up with.
Aphaeresis, you are making excuses again. NO ONE is "giving you orders." What applies here is the old saying (adage) "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink." You are refusing to "drink" because you don't WANT to. Your marriage isn't even on "life support" right now. Your marriage is DEAD and people are trying to teach you "CPR" that may help to resuscitate your marriage and give your husband the "will to fight for the life of your marriage."
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In Christlike love at all times.
Love? That's rather ironic. I don't see any of that in your posts.
Yes it is. You have no concept of what "Christ-like" love is. Perhaps you've heard of "Tough Love?" If you have, you might have a little understanding of one form and application of "love," and may be able to "see" what others are trying to do to help you.
But your concept, or philosophy, of "love" is something that does deserve examination, though I don't think you are likely to do that either.
