A little background: H started a long distance A with his sister's best friend at the end of Feb. We tried to reconcile a couple of times (all before I found Dr H books and this site so it was all done in the wrong way!). Each time he insisted he was going to cut all contact, wanted to make our marriage work, etc. After a few days the contact started again and then eventually the lies about going on "business trips".

In the middle of May I started Plan A. Final separation from OW happened last Saturday (I had a hand in it and so did my sister-in-law, but my H doesn't know this). I am confident that it is final this time.

Here are my issues:

1) Dr H spells out what the WS goes through during withdrawl, but what should I be going through? Since that final day last week I have been absolutely exhausted!!! I'm not ill, just tired all the time. I also feel like I could cry at the drop of a hat and I'm frustrated easily. I'm spending some extra time doing yoga and exercise and doing a few little things for myself, but I am just so incredibly tired! Is this normal? I'm wondering if my body (and mind) were in that fight-or-flight mode for so many months that now that it is over I'm just worn out??

2) How do you deal with the reminders? H got us into a financial mess during the A (long distance ones are pretty expensive, huh?) He has handed over all financial items to me. He had opened credit card accounts that I didn't know about so he could charge his trips and gifts for her. On one hand I appreciate the fact that he is handing bills over to me and being open about them. On the other hand I feel resentful because I'm left to deal with a financial nightmare that he created! On top of that, how do I NOT freak out when I open a credit card bill and find charges for Kay Jewelers while he was on a business trip? And multiple charges for proflowers.com? It kills me to see these. I want to scream and yell and cry!!! But he is in withdrawl and I know this would only take us backwards!

3) How (or do I) deal with his denial? He admits that there was an initial sexual encounter, but insists that after that they were only friends. This is a difficult situation because OW is his sister's best friend (or was, not sure after all of this!). So it is easy for him to say he was visiting his sister. In fact there were times that I know he traveled there for a family function (and took one or two of our kids with him), but I know he ended up seeing OW too. I just want him to ADMIT that there was more too it. I have talked with my sister in law and we have caught him in so many lies, but I can't mention any of it to him because she asked me to please not let him know that she gave me information. She has been stuck in the middle the entire time and has been very torn. I just want him to tell me the truth - I feel like I could get over it better and easier and faster if he would just be honest!! Yet I know that confronting and accusations will get us nowhere. I know he doesn't want to talk about any of it - never wants to mention it again - he has told me this - but I can't seem to get over the denial and I wonder if we can ever really heal unless he admits that there was more to it. In the past he has justified the A because of the situation of our marriage (this was before withdrawl) By not admitting that there was more to it, its as if he won't take any responsibility for what he has done. IS this something to tackle after the withdrawl period? Or something to leave alone forever?

Thanks everyone - I have been doing a lot of reading here on the discussion boards and you all have been very helpful!

j4j, I foresee more trouble on the horizon if you don't expose his affair to his family. He will always be able to go home and meet this woman if you don't. His family members need to know that this woman had an affair with your H so they can cut her loose. That is your greatest protection. It also closes off that avenue if others are in the know and watching.

If the OW is married, I would call her H TODAY and let him know too.

And you are right, there will be no healing until you know the full story. Trust can never be rebuilt if he has secrets with the OW to which you are not privy. You have a right and need to know the details of his affair. This is information about your life to which you have a right to know.

In the meantime, is he willing to send the OW a no contact letter as specified by Dr. Harley? The letter should be written together and sent by you. He should agree to NEVER EVER see or speak to the OW again. Will he do this? Why are you so confident that contact has ended this time?

p.s. welcome to Marriage Builders! Sorry you are here, friend. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

The only family that my H has is his sister. She was aware of the original encounter and was extremely upset about it. However, she believed them both when they said that they were just going to remain friends. She didn't find out differently until he told me he was going on a business trip and she stopped by her friend's house and found her brother there. Many time she told them both that they MUST stop what they were doing, but it was useless. She was involved a lot - many back and forth conversations with him, her, me, etc. Eventually she told all parties involved that she couldn't take it anymore and wouldn't talk with anyone about it.

I am sure that the contact is over. He had mentioned to me that the "friendship" was going down hill, that OW was "acting crazy". He also made a comment about "too many people putting too much pressure" on him.

Last Saturday I sent OW a text message and wrote "Please stop this relationship. It is tearing my family apart". She wrote back "No problem. Consider it done". Then she wrote back and said "I sent him one final text message and that should end it. I will never have any contact with him again. I'm so very sorry. I had no idea". I didn't trust her at all, but when H woke up and checked his phone he was pretty angry. He spent all day making phone calls and even told me his "friend" was acting crazy and wouldn't answer her phone.

The next day she sent me a text message asking if we could talk. I called her and she apologized again and again. Apparently she believed that we were separated but still living in the same house because of the kids. She was extremely upset and crying and talking about how she should would never trust another man. She told me that my H had been sending her text messages and calling continuously since she ended it. She said that when we hung up she was going to change both her cell and home phone numbers so he couldn't contact her any more. She said that she was trying to get back together with her husband also. Then, as she and I agreed, she called my home phone and left a message for H telling him to never, ever contact her again or she would file a restraining order.

H came home from work and heard the message and then we talked. He agreed he would have no more contact with her - friendly or otherwise. We changed phone numbers for our home phone, his cell phone, and my cell phone.

Since then I have checked his cell phone and there have been no calls or messages to her, no calls or messages from her. He deleted her entry from his contact list on his cell phone. He no longer has his cell phone password protected and has given me the password for his email account. His behavior is different also. His phone used to be another appendage - constantly talking or sending messages and now he rarely uses it. I see symptoms of withdrawl behavior too so I'm pretty sure there hasn't been any contact.

Also - how and when do I get at the truth? This is not something he wants to talk about at all.

He is in withdrawl and one minute we are hanging out watching a movie or chatting over coffee (keeping conversations very light) and then next minute he seems very resentful towards me and makes snide comments. If I bring this all up now, when he is still "grieving", won't it make matters worse???

ok good, watch your back! Because it is very common for them to encounter a weak moment and contact each other again. The OW is likely experiencing withdrawals too, and she may relent and call him.

j4j:

I have the same situation - long distance A, debt, denial.

1. Yes, after 6 months I feel exhaused too, just like you. i think that this must be pretty normal. It's been the worst nightmare of our lives, and you like me, have probably spent a lot os sleepless nights full of tears. I'm learning to try to take care of myself and so should you. Do something nice for you and get rest.

2. I am also dealing with reminders. I discovered two credit cards with thousands (like 10) run up that he is trying to pay with his travel reimbursement. He also let her borrow money. I, like you, have tried to keep my temper in check when I think about it. In my case, OW was twice divorced, and filed bankruptcy twice besides has a gambling problem. He basically supported her for 9 mnths. The only thing that I can say is that you need to let him know that you are monitoring this, checking credit history, etc. It's a hard pill to swallow for sure.

3. Finding truth? I finally called the OW just as you did. She was told that he was in final stages of divorce. I also found out many other things from her that he did not deny. It's a double edged sword. I felt that I needed to know, but boy did it hurt. I realized that WH would never tell me the truth though. They don't want you to know the extent of the deceipt. If you can get into MC that may help get all of this out - if he'll go...

I did Plan A for over 5 months, so now I'm going to Plan B because he refuses to write the NC letter. It sounds like you did Plan A, but maybe not long enough. I recommend doing it a little longer, and doing a really good job of it. I see little glimmers of hope now, but I've done it for almost 6 months.

Good luck...

WoW! You're right- lots of similarities in our situations. That is one of the things that amazed me here at MB - I thought my situation was *so* unique and then I came here and found out that so many people have gone through or are going through the same thing!

I think that the one thing that bothers me the most is that when I confronted him with the information that OW gave me, he denied most of it! Both he and my SIL told me at the start that OW is bi-polar and suffers from depression. So when she started acting "crazy" last weekend he told me his "friend" was being unstable and he couldn't figure out her behavior. I think that she was putting pressure on him to move to where she lives. Anyway, when I told him some of the things that she said when I talked with her, he said she had been trying to make their friendship into something more than it was and started acting out when he told her it wouldn't happen. He says that she made up a lot of lies when she was on the phone with me and he won't confirm anything she said. Honestly, she sounded like a very hurt person when I talked to her. She was in tears a few times, was very upset. A few of the things she said completely made sense too - like the fact that she was unable to pay her rent and he wired her $300 so she could pay it a few weeks ago. It just so happens that he needed a specific part for his computer that day and I thought it was strange that he took out cash at the atm and then went to the computer store to buy the part instead of just using our bank card to purchase it at the store like he usually would.

So do I need to address these issues and get him to admit to things?? Do I do it now? Or let it go? I feel like I won't be able to heal until he admits to what he has done. As long as he keeps denying the extent of the relationship and the money issues (many more like the one I described), I feel like I will never be able to trust him!

j4j, print this out and hand it to him, telling him that you cannot recover until you know the full truth.

To Whomever,

I know you are feeling the pain of guilt and confusion. I understand that you wish all this never happened and that you wish it would just go away. I can even believe that you truly love me and that your indiscretion hurts you emotionally much the same way it hurts me. I understand your apprehension to me discovering little by little, everything that led up to your indiscretion, everything that happened that night, and everything that happened afterwards. I understand. No one wants to have a mistake or misjudgment thrown in his or her face repeatedly. No one wants to be forced to "look" at the thing that caused all their pain over and over again. I can actually see, that through your eyes, you are viewing this whole thing as something that just needs to go away, something that is over, that he/she doesn't mean anything to you, so why is it such a big issue? I can understand you wondering why I torture myself with this continuously, and thinking, doesn't he/she know by now that I love him/her? I can see how you can feel this way and how frustrating it must be. But for the remainder of this letter I'm going to ask you to view my reality through my eyes.

You were there. There is no detail left out from your point of view. Like a puzzle, you have all the pieces and you are able to reconstruct them and be able to understand the whole picture, the whole message, or the whole meaning. You know exactly what that picture is and what it means to you and if it can effect your life and whether or not it continues to stir your feelings. You have the pieces, the tools, and the knowledge. You can move through your life with 100% of the picture you compiled. If you have any doubts, then at least you're carrying all the information in your mind and you can use it to derive conclusions or answers to your doubts or question. You carry all the "STUFF" to figure out OUR reality. There isn't really any information, or pieces to the puzzle that you don't have.

Now let's enter my reality. Let's both agree that this affects our lives equally. The outcome no matter what it is well affect us both. Our future and our present circumstances are every bit as important to me as it is to you. So, why then is it okay for me to be left in the dark? Do I not deserve to know as much about the night that nearly destroyed our relationship as you do? Just like you, I am also able to discern the meaning of certain particulars and innuendoes of that night and just like you, I deserve to be given the opportunity to understand what nearly brought our relationship down. To assume that I can move forward and accept everything at face value is unrealistic and unless we stop thinking unrealistically I doubt our lives well ever "feel" complete. You have given me a puzzle. It is a 1000 piece puzzle and 400 random pieces are missing. You expect me to assemble the puzzle without the benefit of looking at the picture on the box. You expect me to be able to discern what I am looking at and to appreciate it in the same context as you. You want me to be as comfortable with what I see in the picture as you are. When I ask if there was a tree in such and such area of the picture you tell me don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask whether there were any animals in my puzzle you say don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask if there was a lake in that big empty spot in my puzzle you say, what's the difference, it's not important. Then later when I'm expected to "understand" the picture in my puzzle you fail to understand my disorientation and confusion. You expect me to feel the same way about the picture as you do but deny me the same view as you. When I express this problem you feel compelled to admonish me for not understanding it, for not seeing it the way you see it. You wonder why I can't just accept whatever you chose to describe to me about the picture and then be able to feel the same way you feel about it.

So, you want me to be okay with everything. You think you deserve to know and I deserve to wonder. You may honestly feel that the whole picture, everything that happened is insignificant because in your heart you know it was a mistake and wish it never happened. But how can I know that? Faith? Because you told me so? Would you have faith if the tables were turned? Don't you understand that I want to believe you completely? But how can I? I can never know what is truly in your mind and heart. I can only observe you actions, and what information I have acquired and slowly, over time rebuild my faith in your feelings. I truly wish it were easier.

So, there it is, as best as I can put it. That is why I ask questions. That is where my need to know is derived from. And that is why it is unfair for you to think that we can effectively move forward and unfair for you to accuse me of dwelling on the past. My need to know stems from my desire to hold our world together. It doesn't come from jealousy, it doesn't come from spitefulness, and it doesn't come from a desire to make you suffer. It comes from the fact that I love you. Why else would I put myself through this? Wouldn't it be easier for me to walk away? Wouldn't it be easier to consider our relationship a bad mistake in my life and to move on to better horizons? Of course it would, but I can't and the reason I can't is because I love you and that reason in itself makes all the difference in the world.

(end of Joseph's Letter)

How to survive infidelity: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5525_qa.html

That was a great letter from MelodyLane. You might try that with him. I've been in Plan A for over 5 months now, so I'm ready for Plan B. Me, I have enough truth now. Anymore for me would be of no value because the level of deceipt is already over the top.

My WH would not tell me anything either. Just kept lying, lying, lying. I found out most of what I needed to know when I called the OW. And as you found out too, most of what she said made sense. She apologized to me too, saying that she thought he was divorced. She told me many things - she lived in his hotel with him for 9 months, he attended her family outings etc, gave her money when she filed bankruptcy etc.

Now, do I believe her? Yes, I do because it all made so much sense. Yes, he denied some of it, but he's a bad liar. He says that she chased him, but I found out differently through phone records. Be careful, because they get other secret cell phones and email accounts to continue contact. You think that they are upfront in letting you look at their cell phones and emails, but they actually have other secret accounts.

Anyway, I know one thing for sure - they CANNOT be just friends and you shouldn't allow it. Insist on NO CONTACT.
I'm doing Plan B because my WH will not write a letter.

I'm at the point where I'm even asking if this is worth the anguish. Do I really want to be married to someone who deceived me so extensively. Maybe its normal, I don't know.

If you really want this marriage, I still think that you should do Plan A longer. In my estimation, a month really isn't long enough. Try to do it flawlessly, just monitor the finances. Don't allow debt to be run up like I did.

I'm new here, so not the expert, but I know after 5+ months of Plan A, I have no regrets on moving on to the next step. Thats why I say do it until you just can't do it anymore. Then you know that you have done all you could.

Funny, I thought my situation was unique too. Scary isn't it???