While having a conversation with PWC last night, he brought up something that concerned me a bit. He asked the following question, "Why are the things you want and the things you need rarely the same?".

I told him that, in my life, in my case, the things that I want are connected to my needs. I have learned a lot about myself and see a better way to live now, so that I get those things that I want sometimes (clothes, SHOES, SHOES, SHOES, hmmmm, did I say shoes?), but the things I need come first (family, friends, relaxation, connection, affection). I KNOW what I actually need, and it has always been there, I just ignored it or treated it in a poor fashion, or I didnt' assign any real importance to those things.

I'm curious what the MB crew thinks. Do you have a better picture of your wants and needs and are they in sync?

Hi SL,

Needs: Basic stuff...based on lifestyle choices and present resources....to survive. "I can afford it now." (Food, shelter, clothing, transportation, etc.)

Wants: Other stuff. "Maybe I can afford it later, but I don't have to have it." (Vacation, social stuff, etc.)

BUT yes, it changed with A.

EG. Vacation together used to be a 'want'; post A it's now a 'need'. (Now necessary for our M to survive.)

Ace

PS Thanks for helping Mish, SL.....have you checked out her sitch lately?

The MAIN THING for you, SL, is what was HE trying to share with you?

Here's your opportunity to LEARN MORE about HIS NEEDS, I think, rather than having him complete the questionnaire.

When my H would ask me those questions, it seemed to be his ATTEMPT to share...maybe something..he wasn't so sure that I COULD HEAR. He may be saying that HE WANTS something that's not OK.

IMO, folks think that their WANTS are not OK but I do think that WANTS reflect ENs. We assume that others will JUDGE us because our WANTS might not be typical or socially acceptable. But with your spouse, TRANSPARENCY is necessary, being able to HEAR and ACCEPT WHATEVER the WANT IS that the other has..even though you may not agree with it or like it. I think a spouse needs to HEAR that whatever you WANT is OK with me to HEAR ABOUT and to TRY TO UNDERSTAND.

You've probably already done something like this, but perhaps a good response to that kind of question would be, (in a very thoughtful, open, and reflective way) "Tell me more about what you mean by that."

or "Hmmmm....good question. Could you give me an example?"

That way if he IS trying to tell you something, it opens the door, and the converstaion becomes about where HE is coming from, and you get a peek inside.

I've clearly been in therapy WAAAAY too long.

But anyhoo....regarding the more global question you've posed.

Speaking ONLY for myself: I don't think I was really in tune with what my needs were, and how they were driving me in ways that were destructive to my marriage.

I think they were destructive because those needs were unhealthy to begin with: I had a NEED to be perfect, a NEED to have others validate my worth, a NEED to control everything, a NEED to prove myself worthy.

These needs were far more basic and deep-seated than the MB needs (admiration, etc.)

For ME, I don't think I can really address the MB-type needs until I've dealt with the underlying ones.

Just thinking aloud here....before all of this, my primary need was to keep myself propped up, because if I let myself fall, I would be revealed to be a fraud...unworthy, unlovable, stupid, ugly. Well, duh, no one can POSSIBLY meet that need, no one else can possibly keep ME propped up without being sucked dry.

So maybe WH is right...I did drive him to it. UGH...why did I go here....???? This was a train of thought that I should have derailed before it got started....

Don't get me wrong, I wasn't a big puddle of quicksand...I have always been (seemingly) competent, etc. I only wish I had revealed my TRUE need to WH when I had the chance...but I don't think that I even recognized it...

This makes no sense....why did I go here?

Oh, the question made me a bit nervous, but I could tell he was questioning himself. I became a bit aggitated, but calmed myself down. What was the trigger, you might ask? Well, the WAY in which he said it made me wonder about his WANT for OW. I know it is there, but it is not my cross to bear, so to speak. That problem sits squarely with PWC; reconciling being home in this life with me vs. being free to be with whomever. That was my thought process and *I* own that. My trigger, and I dealt with it while talking. I didn't lay that on him, not his problem, MY TRIGGER.

I continued with the subject. I posed the question, "What are the needs and wants that you are talking about?" I asked if he meant material things or metaphysical things. Didn't really answer that one, at least not in a way that cleared it up for me, but that's okay. I think it became a tough subject for him, so I prattled on about what MY wants and needs are, nonspecifically, and how they seem to be in sync, repeating that that's just ME, not how anybody else works.

I enjoy money, but a major need for me is my family, being in it, living it, breathing it. I love my family (probably why I tried so hard to keep it together). I don't mean my extended family as much as I mean ME, PWC and DS. I felt like I was heading in the direction of preaching my gospel, so I stopped talking about it.

Sis, you make perfect sense, and I think PWC could relate. He may, too, have that deep seeded need for perfection, and I believe, he may transer that to others, which may be causing him a large amount of grief. Others seem to be the problem, as if they need to change in order for him to feel happy. He'll say he's not perfect, but I think he may still have expectations that others should be, as well as himself. This may be an ongoing battle for him.

I wouldn't say that I've LOWERED my expectations, I think I'm in the process of learning what I CAN expect, what is reasonable for THAT PERSON. Also, I'm learning acceptance.

Mimi, I did attempt to draw him out a bit, try to get him to talk about the subject, but it all came out sort of cloaked and convoluted, so there was no straight line to his answers. I think I'm actually more confused about it. I appreciate that he's asking so that we'll discuss and I attempted, maybe poorly, to give him what MY answer to the question is, and open up the floor for what he may be asking.

I'm sure we'll have more nights to talk and get at these things. We haven't exchanged the EN questionnaire; I filled mine out, and it opened MY eyes a bit, and that was all that I needed for now. I dropped the subject. I think I like the approach of finding out as we go, as we open ourselves back up to eachother.

I was a little triggered and just wanted some opinions...

Oh...as soon as I read your first post and the question he asked, my mind went to the same place. I can see why it triggered you! In spite of that huge trigger, you handled it really, really well!

You are one strong lady!

I also live and breathe my family. It's all I ever wanted, and I KNOW that's why I am fighting so hard even though the odds are stacked against me.

And in terms of perfection, I don't know that I ever expected it from anyone else...I seem to be okay with other's imperfections...I just don't understand them. Which comes down to...if someone very close to me sees something differently than me, then I lack the confidence to shrug it off and chalk it up to differing POV. Instead, I see it as a reflection on ME, that I might be wrong or mistaken, stupid, unfeeling, uninformed, lacking in insight....and I REact.

Hmmmm....see any connection between those two statements???

Sigh. Too much for this morning. Only two full days until the boys come back. Little over 72 hours.

Sorry for jacking your thread.

Oh, Sis, I feel you, girl. I'm so sorry that this particular thread hit so close to home today. It could be a good thing, just to help you along in questioning your goals for your recovery and how to live with who you are and who you WANT to be.

I totally get that feeling of not being on the same page with others, and wondering it it's a deficit in myself. As I age, I find that I take pleasure in the differences. I hope to continue this, and learn more and more about acceptance.

Sis, you are officially excused from having to read even one more post to this thread. Okay? Curiosity may get the best of you, but know that I accept you in your journey and am only trying to help; in no way am I passing judgement (I actually said this to PWC last night, too, that I am not judging him, but I am curious about his answers).


edited to add

I composed an email to PWC thanking him for the fun, the talking, that small amount of time without our son around was great. We just talked and talked until I became VERY tired at about midnight.

"He asked the following question, "Why are the things you want and the things you need rarely the same?".

Wow, SL, it sounds to me like he was attempting some intimacy. For a man to even bring up the question is HUGE to me. I don't think many of them even ever THINK of questions like this.

I would give him a big hug, and sympathize with him. Tell him something you always wanted that was different from your needs, like a beautiful castle in England, with knights in shining armor, or whatever.

Believer, because of the trigger, it took me a few minutes to recover, and then I felt like I was just talking. I think getting these suggestions from you guys helps me to redirect my flow.

I'm not kicking myself, but sometimes I wish emotions didn't interfere, so that I could be more analytical, not sterile, but inquisitive.

I like the castle and knight in shining armor. That does sound nice.

I like the beach and a shining surfer, but that's just me. I actually prefer to BE the surfer.

I do love when PWC opens up like that. I find that to be one of his great qualities, that he can open up. He hasn't done that in so long, I think it surprised me a little.

Need - to be necessary

Want - something desired, demanded, or required

Those are the definitions that fit more closely what I beleive want and need to be. Right from the dictionary. There are others but you can look to see what your are.

A need for me is the basic building blocks of life. I need, water, food, and air. That is really, really all it takes to survive.

I don't need shelter or anything else. With those three things I could live. Without any one of those things I would wither up and die. Plain and simple.

I personally think and this is just my opinion that a relationship or a marriage is a living organism.

That organism has basic needs. Water, food and oxygen. But in my case my relationship organism needs, SF, appreciation, admiration etc to live. Without those basics my relationship organism would die.

Now in my real life I want shelter, a car, etc but it is not necessary to have those. However the more of the wants I have filled the better my life seems. (not always the truth)

Same with my Relationships life. I have my top needs that if filled the relationship will live. Then the more wants I have filled the better my relationship seems.

The main thing is you can do without the wants but not without the needs.

((((SL))))




You are delving into the MEAT of TRUE RECOVERY..which is why RECOVERY is SOOOO difficult because I believe that the BS needs to be able to HEAR AND ACCEPT that their spouse does continue to WANT the OP. Of course, they do. At least, I know my H did. He had a long-term RELATIONSHIP with her. I would be denying HIS REALITY, not allowing myself to be TRULY INTIMATE AND CLOSE with him if I don't ACCEPT THAT FACT. He LOVED HER...not in the way that he has LOVED ME and is growing to LOVE ME..but yes, he did love her..and me being able to ACCEPT AND HEAR that makes him LOVE me even more...

OPENNESS AND HONESTY..one of the FOUR RULES..I really think the SUCCESS of RECOVERY is determined by LIVING THOSE RULES...getting so close to each other that you can HEAR AND ACCEPT ANYTHING..it does not mean that it's OK or ACCEPTABLE or that you AGREE..it's HIS REALITY...that you want to HEAR about and LEARN about...GETTING CLOSER TO HIM THAN TO ANYONE ELSE IN THIS WHOLE WIDE WORLD!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />



Did you know AT THAT TIME that you thought he was WANTING her? If so, you were not being HONEST with him. It would have been your chance to MODEL HONESTY and to let him know how you CAN TAKE IT and that's what you are wanting with him...INTIMACY..as Believer stated. I know you may not be there, SL, but I'm using this to show you where you are wanting to go with this. I struggled with this too...and got HELP from my PEOPLE here on this..so I know it's difficult... That's why they say here for the BS to be EMOTIONALLY PREPARED for the WORK of RECOVERY...





Notice how you say.."I THINK" alot in reference to your H. Are you sure that YOU KNOW? Are you sure that you are on the right track? YOU DON'T KNOW UNLESS HE TELLS YOU THESE THINGS. It seems like you really need to get to know him.

That's what I found out. I was sooo into prejudging my H and analyzing who he WAS. That's not my job. My only job is to be OPEN TO LISTENING TO AND ACCEPTING WHAT HE SAYS ABOUT HIMSELF WHEN HE IS BEING HONEST WITH ME. He knows he can be OPEN AND HONEST with me now because I say out loud (with the help of LA, JL, Pep and many others here) that I will not PREJUDGE and can JUST LISTEN.....not make ASSUMPTIONS based on MY OWN EXPERIENCE..or based on how I WANT HIM TO BE...



There you go..the main thing that you want to do, I think, is to OPEN THE FLOOR..as you say...

Sorry to go on and on but this helps ME to put this in words for MYSELF...

The parts of my H that I have always DISLIKED..I still DISLIKE..BUT...NOW..I don't try to FIX HIM or try to MAKE HIM INTO THE WAY THAT I WANT HIM TO BE...I accept that you have to take the good with the bad..the bitter with the sweet...Guess what?...Nobody is PERFECT, right?..Not even me... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Mimi,

I totally agree, and know that I have a lot of work with acceptance, with accepting the good with the bad. This was a first conversation in, hopefully, many to come. There was very little stress and we just talked about whatever.

I am NOT sure that I know what he is thinking or WHO he is, as he has changed. This is where I need to learn to see him as he is, as he shows himself. I believe that we will grow together on this one. Again, I think acceptance of elements of eachother is where I need to learn.

I've already made changes that help me to shut up and listen more often, now I need to work on acceptance of a differing view. It's that thing that I said to Sis, my need to be of similar viewpoint or of understanding of that viewpoint. I've come to understand that there is no possible way to 'know it all', and that diversity is where I learn. I prefer someone telling me I'm way off base and telling me why, than to be argued with, as if defending your view.

No need to defend your view anymore, *I* need to learn to appreciate that view.

Mimi, thanks so much for chiming in, and fully explaining how this relates in your relationship with your H. I think I am going to learn a lot during recovery, and I am grateful for the chance to learn, to grow, to discover, to overcome, to let go.

Are you ready and/or able to hear him say that he may WANT some of what the OW provided?

I learned a lot about my H when I was ABLE to HEAR this.

He did not WANT HER..but he did WANT what she provided....

Oh, I forgot to broach the subject of PWC wanting the OW. I know that this is, most likely, true. That PWC may want the OW. It wouldn't surprise nor shock me. I think that it needs to come from PWC, when he does feel that we are at a place where he is safe. WE are not there yet. I, too, have things that I would like to tell him, about my feelings, about how I feel about him, sooo much more. I will talk about these things, but last night, I didn't feel he was ready to hear it. I do say things here and there, to open up and show honesty, and give a teensy bit of trust back to him when he talks openly in his response.

Barring any major life trauma or events, we have time to open back up, to bare ourselves, to show that soft little underbelly and trust not to get stabbed or hurt. Again, I'm happy to learn. I can only speak for me, so I will not assume that PWC ISN'T ready to be fully open and honest. Maybe I'M not fully ready to hear about his love for Aimless, her attributes that he liked.

I did that in the very first days of our false recoveries in regards to OW#1 and Aimless. I asked the questions and listened to his most candid answers, and it was like hot knives running across my skin. I need to be ready. It will always hurt, and I know that, AND I've told PWC this on a number of occasions. Hearing about his other life, the one he left me for, is difficult at best. I need to be in a better ANGER state to hear it, and, right now, I can honestly say that I'm not. I'm getting there. I need to be able to hear him and not cloud what I'm taking in with emotion and then reject what he's saying. That won't get us moving forward at all. I need to be able to express the response to what he is saying in a more calm, logical way. I don't want to scare him away; I want to create a safety zone.

Also, the conversation did not start out so serious, more playful, more general; it just turned to a more provocative subject and I had to recover. I should have broached the subject in a more candid way. I maybe, should have asked him about Aimless; I do want to know, but, again, fear, emotion crept in, and I thought it would be more destructive that contstructive.

When you intial thought is that he's thinking of Aimless and how much he misses her, and then anger starts to set in, and you want to hit him and call him a ****** for even thinking of her while with you, that's not constructive. That was the first minute, then I calmed down and realized he was talking, reaching out, and I just talked. I am being honest, here. I will be able to talk about these things soon, but last night was not the night. I left the door opened, ajar, if you will, and was receptive. I hope that keeps this line of communication open, too. I feel that it is my burden right now, to keep open, to show that it is and will be safe.

Now, I feel like I'm prattling, so I'll stop there.

Mimi, I am able to hear what he wants and needs right now, but OW still hits pretty hard, in all honesty. I think I need more time, as I said in my previous post.

One thing I can tell you is that I'm okay with admitting that I have this weakness right now. I am working on not COMPARING myself to any OW (#1, or #2). I think you pointing these things out to me helps me to see that this is about HIM not the OWs.

BINGO!!!

Herein lies your answers about HIS EMOTIONAL NEEDS....

It has SEEMED to HIM that she has met THE NEEDS....MAGICALLY...

You on the other hand will LISTEN TO HIM and try to REALLY UNDERSTAND HIM and will meet the needs PURPOSEFULLY...and he will KNOW THAT...and his LOVE FOR YOU WILL GROW AND GROW!!

I love this place...

I'm listening. I already feel the rewards from opening myself up. A little more intimacy with every step. Great conversation. I feel my needs being met, too. This is not one sided, I am feeling fulfillment also. I feel more at ease when he is honest and open. When I'm ready, I'll delve further. I think I'm already getting there by posting here today.

Ooop, Sorry. I missed your 1:36PM post altogether.

I UNDERSTAND how difficult this all is..

I REALLY, REALLY UNDERSTAND...

(((SL)))