I came home last expecting to come to an empty house. I assumed he'd be hunting. Instead he was home. I came inside and the first thing I noticed was the fireplace was going. Then I saw pink roses in a vase on the dinner table, table set and he had ordered dinner. <P>I said "what is this?" He said "I missed you all day and thought about you all day, I don't want to argue anymore, I love you more than anything, I'd be lost without you, your the most important thing to me, I'm sorry for what I said, I know I act stupid and say things but I don't mean them, you know I have a hard time with my feelings and with words and I'm sorry". <P>I commented on how surprised I was and how I loved everything. Then I said "We have to really talk, you have to stop the swearing at me, even when your mad, I'd be really happy if you could comprise the hunting, I mentioned 1 Saturday all day everything couple of weeks and then just Saturday mornings and 2-3 nights during the week, and I don't want to feel like the time you spend with me is "boring" because we're not doing anything." I said "maybe we get a hobby we can do together, we can both think of something, I don't know what, but we need to talk more and he needs help in the way he communicates with me." I told him the comments he made about my family, fishing again, etc. really hurt. I said "I have to be able to tell you how and what I'm feeling without being afraid of being attacked, this has to change, if it doesn't then things will never work with us". <P>I told him I know he loves me but told him again that everytime things like what happened between us happen, I feel like I love him alittle less and it's not the same. I feel like I'm at the end of my rope in the relationship and something has to give. <P>He said he would try and seemed to understand me, we have to talk more and even though I know he still feels he's right with alot of things and last night was an attempt to just "smooth things over" in the short term, I feel alittle better today. <P>Part of me, though, is just waiting for another episode.

I think you are on the right track. You should set aside an entire evening and talk. Get things out in the open and straighten what you can out. This is a good sign, he is at least willing to work on things. Try to see the good.

Hummingbird,<P>I think that is great. You are definitely on the right track. <P>How wonderful that your husband went to all that trouble. Ah...I envy you. My husband I don't think would ever go to a quarter of that much trouble. <P>Keep us all abreast of how it all is progressing. I just love hearing about all these little successful moves forward. <P>------------------<BR>God bless you and all of us.<P>Samantha<BR>

Great start! I wish that kinda thing to happen to us (from W). I wouldn't have been ready for it when I was wishing for it 3 or 4 months ago, but now, I could give it a real shot. Alas... Anyhow, bask in the moment and don't start taking advantage of the situation go slow, and try to remember what I mentioned on your other thread. <P>I am going to mention something else that I am sure I will catch hell on from others here. If you haven't told your husband about your affair... DON'T. I cannot see the how it could be constructive. Build on what you have begun and set that aside. It is YOUR guilt don't burden others with it, it will not make you feel better. Deal with it, but do it on your own. Total honesty, yes, but I would hesitate at this point. You guys seem very fragile right now. My 2 cents.<P>Eric32

Oh, HUM!<P>There is hope. What a sweet attempt at communication your H made! <P>Take it slow tho. Don't throw too many "needs" at him at once. Look at what you wrote above and pick one to concentrate on now. My H is not much of a reader, so to improve our communication skills, I would read the books first, then on long rides together I would read parts that I had underlined and we talked about the ideas mentioned. If you don't go many places far away together very often, perhaps, that could be one of your new "hobbies" to do together. Go for a ride in the country and take walks, slow ones, no destination in mind, and just talk.<P> One time I asked my h how he would define a friend, I had asked other friends to do the same, and I had already made my list. I wrote down his answers and then we compared our ideas.<P>Another time we talked about the definition of love. I'm sure others here will have ideas.<P>Do tread lightly tho. Don't make him think all is bad! Maybe it would be good for you to write a "respect letter" to him. I suggested this to someone else too. It is not the same as a love letter, rather, an appreciation type thing (works on that admiration need) It not only will serve to let him know you are aware of the good things he does for you, but also will help you to pinpoint the things you may have forgotten about him.<P>Good Luck!<P>Beth

Hummmingbird,<P>OK...can't help it...told ya so! (You know, that H must have a little something that makes him a possible keeper)<P>I agree with Pilot's Wife, don't throw too much at him at once or he'll feel overwhelmed. Tiny steps will still move forward. Remember there is more to be done in the relationship than what "he" has to do to make it work.<P>But isn't this great? Who would have seen this coming yesterday? <P>You're right. The negative communication must stop. That will make everything else easier.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Hum, this is so positive it's unbelievable.<P>Clearly, as much of an insensitive lunkhead as your H is, what happened between you bothered him, upset him, made him feel like a sh*t (which he was).<P>And he's trying to make amends.<P>The problem is that he does this only on an "as needed" basis. The two of you need to get on the same page; that marriage is WORK, and both parties have to be involved in that work. <P>If you have good counseling, that should help.<P>You're right -- your H is Jekyll and Hyde. Jekyll is rational, loving, cares for you, can do "romantic" gestures. Hyde is selfish, uncaring, says terrible things.<P>You did the right thing by gushing over the gesture. Men are like dogs...provide positive reinforcement and they will do the behaviors you want.<P>On the negative side, I do see a bit of the classic abuse cycle -- abuse, contrition, reconciliation, abuse. That has to stop.<P>What you said was a bit too "you have to...", but OK...he didn't react badly.<P>He's indicated he's willing to compromise on the hunting. Are you willing to compromise on your family?<P>Did you get the Susan Page book?<P>Overall, though, Hum...a positive development. A baby step to be sure, but the situation looks far more hopeful.<P>As far as telling or not, well, I don't know. I think those are right who say that your H KNOWS. He doesn't know who, where, or when, but he sure knows something's up, something's happened.<P>It's not only women who get that "hunch."<P>I know you feel like you're waiting for the other shoe to drop. That's where the "abuse cycle" thing comes in. It would be useful if in the course of counseling, your H gets some individual counseling as well.<P>Please keep us posted on how things develop, OK?

Hummingbird,<P>(I love your name, so sweet)... Covenant had a link on Sweet Pea's thread that was interesting to check out. <P>Not only thinking of my situation, but yours too.<P>

In reading how your h communicates with you and his hobbies (hunting) he sounds soooo much like my own it's scary. If my H would have gone to that trouble that yours did, I would be ecstatic. I think I would have probably just basked in the moment and brought up the behavior changes later, though. In trying to learn better communication techniques I've seen that when (which is never nowadays) my H does something sweet I show him how much I do appreciate it and don't bring up things that could contribute to bringing down the mood. But it sounds as if your H obviously loves you and there's a lot to work with. Since I'm fairly new to the board and you might have already said, but does your H know about your affair?

Thanks guys. My husband just left for work and I'll be leaving soon for Borders. I'm going with my sister. He did make a comment before he left "I hope no goodlooking guys are at Borders, remember your married, your so pretty, if I was a guy there I'd go after you". I just said "stop it".<P>I was so happy with yesterday, even though he went off hunting this morning, and didn't come home until 11:30AM, it was OK. I cleaned the house, lit some candles, and make some eggsalad for lunch so we could eat together when he got home (I knew he'd be hungry). <P>Then I made a meatloaf for an early dinner and make some chocolate pudding for him to take to take to work, cause he'll be hungry working til 12:00AM. <P>Connor: My husband doesn't know about the affair and at this point I don't think I'm telling him.<P>Dazed: Yeh, Jekle & Hyde, I wish I could have Jekle all the time. Life would be great.<P>I posted before to Mkn about how I would feel if my husband left me for another woman, I said I would feel alittle relieved and if the OM changed his mind, I go to him running. I've been thinking of my comment all day and I would really miss my husband, I'd miss his smile, his face, his laughter and just not seeing him. He's been in my life for almost half my life, it's hard to imagine him gone. In a way I grew up with him. He can be so sweet. Maybe we can rekindle things, I don't know. I would comprise my family, if he would comprise with me. It felt so good last night to get along. <P>I feel really good today but I'm so afraid of being too hopeful. I guess I'll take what I can right now.<P>Dazed: Almost forget to mention, he also had candles burning!!! My husband lit candles, I couldn't believe it! He put two little votives in little glass cups! I said "where did you get the votives (thinking he had no idea where I kept them), he said "I know where they are, I pay attention to some things". Oh, dazed, romance!! I can't help it, I eat it up.<p>[This message has been edited by Hummingbird (edited October 09, 1999).]

Yeah Hummingbird!! I'm so happy for you! It sounds like your husband really doesn't want to lose you afterall...that's great. He really went out of his way to make you happy...candles and dinner, wow!<P>I agree with eric32, not to tell you husband about the affair...it's over now!<P>Hope things continue to remain positive for you and your husband!!<BR>

This may be the very last thing I post on this board, and the good Lord knows that the LAST thing we need on this board is us turning against each other. When I say what I'm about to say, I don't want you to think I don't care about you or your problems, and you do have problems. I'm not trying to belittle them. <P>Now here's the part that's gonna get me a thump on the head (if not thumped right outta here - <P>I have answered several of your posts and I always say the same thing, and yet I have not seen my suggestion taken seriously. What I've said, over and over again, is to tell your H the truth about your affair. He obviously knows, and his heart is breaking. He's confused. He knows SOMEthing is going on, but can't put his finger on it. I really feel sorry for him.<P>Instead, it seems that we are getting one side of a story that makes it look like your H is an abuser. I don't take the suggestion of abuse lightly. Abuse is very, very serious business. You have said that you are physically afraid of him, that's why you don't tell. I can understand that. That's why I (and many others) suggested that you tell him in a safe place; a counselor's office, for example. <P>His never being there because of the hunting, etc. does matter. But hunting season is only for a part of the year. What's going on during the rest of the year? I understand lonliness, I understand wanting to find someone to love you, and I understanding holding onto the feelings for the OM because you feel that you have nowhere else to turn. You are here, so I know how much you want to work things out with your H. I am very, very confused about your situation. <P>I know someone very much like you. She actually looks like a hummingbird, frail, little, and she's been having an affair with her neighbor with an invilid W. She and the neighbor think that they have all the reasons in the world to cling to each other. She gets flowers at work from the OM, and her H calls yelling and is rude to everyone in the office. But I have to ask...<P>**Which came first?** <P>According to her, H was an a** before, but who knows? Of course, she's gonna say that. Of course, he's gonna be an a** now because he is embarrassed, and we all know, and he knows we all know. Was your H always this way, or was there a time he wasn't??<P>Hummingbird, I do care about you and your marriage. But I think in the future I'll stay away from your posts. If I see a subject that says "I've told him" I'll be there - because I think that's the only way this is going to work for you. What you did for your H is very nice, with the dinner and the pudding and all... but nothing is going to take the place of telling him what HE ALREADY KNOWS.<P>Finally, I hope and pray that your H is not hurting you in ANY way EVER. If he is, then you need to work to get out, that is never acceptable!<P>I wish you blessings as you work to rebuild your marriage! <P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>Marriage: the most important contract you'll ever enter into, and the most sacred.<P><BR>

You obviously have a husband who puts a great deal of value on your marriage. You have also illustrated a syndrome which is common in many marriages. When things are bad, all you can remember is the bad. A person only remembers those things that support his/her present level of functioning. I have seen this in myself more times than I care to admit. <P>It looks like since your husband has changed his behavior, you realize that you would lose something if you left. Since your OM has told you that he is going to stay with his marriage, why don't you do the same? Continue with your efforts to improve your relationship with your husband. As soon as he comes in the door, overflow with enthusiasm to see him. I think you will find that your feelings will follow your actions. Continue with this course of action and see what happens. <P>May the Lord Bless You and Keep you.

I too think that honesty is the best policy. It will help you keep a "real" perspective on life and your relationship. It keeps you from being false and keeps you from wondering if he is telling you the truth about what he wants and expects. There is a right time and a wrong time to explain what happened. Perhaps when the too of you are ready to commit to the "Agreement" would be a good time to get it all on the table. To bare the pain is one of the steps to a better love.<P>I long for the day when my W wants to try again.<P><P>------------------<BR>7Habits (Dane)<BR>"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." Einstein.<BR>

I have to agree with new beginning 100%. I even contemplated whether I should have told my h because he told me point blank he wished he could have been kept in the dark about this and it's because of the pain and anger he's going through and the obvious short term feeling would be to not know. The problem with not telling for me was 1. I couldn't live with that, it was as if he was there living a lie. 2. he deserved to know. Honesty in a marriage or the marriage is destroyed it seems.<P>Now I think that my h and Hummingbird's H are so much alike it's amazing from what I've read. My h said before this that he would be gone and he would kill the OM if anything like this ever happened. Well my H and I are still together and the OM is still living. My h and are have gone through the hardest past several months in our marriage but I prefer to think of it now like we now have honesty and have gotten to the root of our problems and although it's painful we are slowly and I mean slowly working our way through. I can't imagine that happening if I hadn't told him about my affair. I know there are some who say that it's best not to tell given the circumstances of your marriage but I can say that no matter the circumstances honesty in the marriage is the most important part. It took me 6 months to get to the point where I could disclose it after seeing a counselor and implementing a Plan A (which I didn't know about) during this time to give recovery a better chance. <P>New beginning I think your very wise and your advice was right on the mark.

Hummingbird congratulaions on the turn of events. That's real progress.<P>I agree with everything new beginning said except one little thing. I don't think your husband necessarily suspects another man. He recognises something's wrong but he seems like me - too much of a [censored] to think his wife has someone else. <P>As part of the recognised need to improve communication between you, you need to encourage him to join you at a counseling session. If you can make that step then arrange to also see the counselor alone and confess about your OM. The counselor can then help you to bring it up with your H in a session. Concentrate on improving communication and all the other pieces will fall into place including the need to be honest and the opportunity to be honest without fear of recrimination.

NB,<P>You have always given me very good advice and I've always taken it to heart. I respect your decision and understand. At this time, and I've also had advice from my counselor, I'm not going to tell my husband, I only think it would make things worse.<P>Yes, NB my husband has always been this way. He was actually worse before we married, to the point I broke off my engagement to him. He would actually call my office and accuse of sleeping with my boss. He would check the mileage on my car, check and see if the passenger seat was moved from the time he got in my car. After we got back together, he promised he'd change. He did get better after we married. My parents have seen his outbursts, his temper for little reason. Three years ago at a company Xmas party, before the OM was in the picture, I slow danced with a male friend, I came home and told him, he freaked out on me. Called me every name in the book, said he would kick me in the head and that I disgusted him. Then the next day he apologized. <P>Looking back I married him because I loved him even though I knew he was this way. I can say I was very naive and I know I made vows to him and a commitment to him but I don't feel I should stay married just because of my obligation. I want to feel the love for him again. Over the years I've changed too and don't feel I should have to put with it. He should respect me, not call me names, even in arguments. Our communication is terrible. This has taken a tremendouse toll on our marriage. I know I need to work on it too. <P>He's never satisfied with anything. He always wants more and more things. More and more toys, the older he gets, the worse he gets. I think he's going middle age crazy at 34. He says he feels like he hasn't lived life yet. <P>There's also the issue of children. He'll have children for me. If I want children, he'll have children. He's neutral on the subject, yet he'll put stipulations on it, like OK I'll agree to have children if I can still retire at 55, go on a $4000 Elk hunt, save $1000 a month, buy that fourwheeler I want, etc. I'm not too comfortable with that. I know I should of known before marriage, all I can say is that I was 23 and I thought it was so far into the future, I thought he'd change his mind and I've changed to. <P>Hunting is seasonal but it's very long, October - January. Then in February starts Turkey season and small game goes into May. Then before the season starts in October he has to scouting for a "perfect spot". It is a very time consuming hobby. He also talks about hunting all the time and the time he spends with me he had said was "boring". <P>We have family issues, his family is very distant, he grew up in a screwed up family life. Father was an alcoholic, hit his mother, mother had an affair, mother has told him she only married his mother because she was pregnant with him. Parents never call, he never calls them. My family is very close, they've tried to open up to him and he doesn't want to be bothered. <P>Recreational things are hard, he is an outdoors guy, I'm not. I do enjoy walks, and working in the garden. I'd like to go apple picking, he thinks it's stupid. <P>NB, he has made threats to me in the past before the OM that he would kill me if I ever cheated him. I never in a million years that I ever would for fear of that. Me and the OM only saw eachother outside of the office a couple of times of the two year period. I don't think he would actually kill me, maybe beat me up, I don't know I'm not sure. The comment he made tonight is normal for him, he's always made comments like that. I posted a while back an example of his angry outburts during traffic, he jumped out of our car because their was a real jerk tailgating us, but instead of ignoring him, he jumped out and almost straggled the guy. It was a real scene. The guy followed us home, said he was going to press charges, but never did thank God. He said he lost it, saw red. Maybe I should divorce someone whom I've so afraid would hurt me. If he did ever hit me, that would be the bottom line for me,I would leave. Even though some would say I'd deserve it.<P>Over the years, I've felt my love fading, it's not the same. In the beginning, I did feel it, but that was a long time ago. Then the OM came into my life and now I question if it was ever right. I know it's fantasy with the OM and I know I'm still in withdrawal. He was everything I ever wanted but I keep telling myself I was looking at him threw "rose colored glasses". What I really loved about him was that he was so romantic, was very kind, gentle and easy going, didn't seem to any temper and from what he told me had a wonderful relationship with his parents. But I know I shouldn't be talking about this.<P>I can comprise some things, the hunting in itself wouldn't be the worse thing to deal with, it's everything with it. Now that I think I've mentioned everything, I feel very depressed and if no one wants to answer my posts any longer because I'm going to tell my husband about the affair, then I guess I should leave.<P>Thanks again, NB for all your advice and I wish you the best as well.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Hummingbird (edited October 09, 1999).]

Hummingbird excuse me for butting in again, but I still think that your husband does not suspect an OM. Other than what you're posting here he has no reason to suspect anyone now, right?<P>Build on the "change" in your husband and get him into counseling. Your counselor cannot determine whether to tell your husband or not to tell, without meeting him and at least working with him. As you've stated communication is the first problem you both need to deal with. <P>My wife also had your same fears of a reaction from me, because of angry outbursts, although I had never made threats such as your husbands. When she did reveal her affair to me my response was completely the opposite,I just broke down. The angry outbursts have stopped, but the affair goes on. I f you had asjked me how I would have reacted 12 months ago I would have supected I would go crazy. I'm not saying your husband will break down, only that no-one knows for sure. Perhaps after some theraputic work he may be able to handle it.<P>------------------<BR>It's always darkest before the dawn

Hum,<P>Did you read my other post with my "10 cent analysis" of your H? I still stand by that.<P>Your H grew up in an abusive home. His father dealt with frustration by using his fists. So he learned how to deal with anger the same way. When you get your H into counseling with you, try to get your counselor to talk him into some anger management sessions. There are groups for abusers that deal with this. Your H hasn't done any serious physical abuse to you yet, but the potential is there. Men who grow up with abuse become abusers. He's got the symptoms. He needs to learn how to deal with his anger.<P>Even though you're not in a classic abuse situation, the cycle of abuse is there -- the veering between inappropriate, disproportionate anger and the equally disproportionate romantic gestures. The latter pushes your "I need romance" buttons and enables you to keep going until the next time he says disgusting things to you.<P>Abuse does not have to manifest as bruises. And they always say they'll change. They WANT to change, they just don't know how. Old habits die hard. <P>Most abusers aren't evil, they're men in pain, and they don't know appropriate ways to deal with pain. And your H is in pain. You know that; that's why you're with him....because it's "romantic."<P>You never did answer my question about Wuthering Heights. Did you love that book?<P>The "toys" are another sign. There's a giant black hole in your H's psyche and he looks to fill it with toys. The problem is that there's nothing external that fills that black hole---we have to fill it ourselves. Your H has to fill it himself...and he has to recognize that. My mother is an Ebay addict. Someday I'm going to have the world's biggest garage sale, because she buys "tchotchkes" to fill the hole. And it's never full.<P>Your H feels that life is passing him by, but he doesn't know what would solve that feeling. Sensation makes him feel alive. I'm surprised he's not into extreme sports. <P>From my distance, I feel sorry for him because of his pain. But not sorry enough to excuse it. He can be helped...but he has to want that help.<P>At some point, you may have to give him an ultimatum -- he gets help or you walk. And you'll have to mean it. But you'd need to do it with love. I did it once, when my H was severely depressed. I loved him but was not going to let him drag me down with him. <P>And he got help. He dropped it once the meds stabilized his moods, but he got help.<P>Whatever happens, you cannot have children with this man until he learns how to manage his pain and anger. The last thing you want is to play Hedda Nussbaum to his Joel Steinberg. Remember that case not too long ago?<P>Please prep your counselor about his anger management problems. If you can get him some intervention for that, it'll go a long way toward helping your marriage.

Dazed,<P>Yes, I loved that book. I am a born romantic and yes, I think your analysis is right on. I feel he is searching for material things to bring him happiness, and we know that's only a short lived high. I think he may be depressed as well, the counselor told me that from what I've mentioned.<P>I want to make him happy and yes, I feel and have felt over the years that I can "fix" everything with him, get him everything he wants, etc. It's taken a toll on my love for him and my marriage.<P>Regarding hunting, I forgot to mention the duck hunting trip he's going on for the weekend in December, he wants to also bird hunt (something new thanks to one of his friends) the wild boar hunting trip he went on for 4 days in May, the bear hunting trip he wants to go for a week this April, the elk hunt which talks endlessly about ($4000.00) which we can't afford, antelope hunting, and I'm sure I've missed something.<P>This morning he mentioned the ATV again but approached me with an advertisement he saw with 8.9% financing, 0% down and payments AS LOW AS $69 a month. I told him to look at the "as low as", is this a 10 year loan? He also bought a Want Ad to look at used ATV's. I have to admit he has persistance. <P>I bought two books last night, Private Lies and How One of you can bring both of you together.<P>I can't wait to start reading.<p>[This message has been edited by Hummingbird (edited October 10, 1999).]