If your spouse is doing something that hurts you and you tell them once, then they do it again...should you say anything or could that be construed as nagging...since you've already told them once how you feel?

Hypothetical example: Jim has been going out with the guys every Friday night to play pool even before he married Laura. He enjoys being with the guys. Laura tells Jim she feels hurt when he goes out with the guys instead of spending time with her and asks him not to do it anymore. She feels that they need to spend more time together. Jim understands what she has to say but sees no reason to stop doing something he enjoys, since he already spends all other evenings at home. The next time and everytime after that Laura repeats to Jim how she feels hurt when he goes out on Friday. Jim gets irritated and doesn't like feeling guilty about doing something he enjoys. Is Laura love busting now and if so...how should she handle the situation. (Jim is not having an affair and is not in a place conducive to having an affair)

Seems to me this is a situation for POJA. Can Laura join Jim? Can Laura find herself a suitable activity so she's not sitting at home stewing because Jim is out with his friends?

Are there other options that both can embrace enthusiastically?

If the couple has agree to POJA, then Jim's independent behavior is a love-buster. Laura shouldn't have the authority to trump Jim's desires either. Somewhere, I think, there should be some agreement they can come to that they can both be content with.

I'm learning...

JinGA

Let's say they have not agreed to POJA. Laura doesn't like to play pool and besides it's a guys night out.

Sounds like you need to negotiate a bit more. I would suggest you start negotiations with something like this:

1) Jim can go out with the guys x number of times a month if
2) You and he have a date night once a week.
3) You get a girls' night out as often as he gets his boys' night out.

I think number two is the most important because you do need time out together. Numbers one and three, the actual number of times you each can go out by yourselves, is where you can negotiate until you get to POJA.

diana49,

Even though JinGA and Aphaeresis are someone "newbies" here at MB...they are on the right track. The POJA says "Never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse." The man himself, Doc Harley Sr., says it best:

When in the state of Intimacy, both spouses want the other to be happy, and neither spouse wants to see the other hurt. In the state of Conflict, both spouses want to be happy and neither wants to see themselves hurt. Actually, both objectives are important, and that's why I created a negotiating rule to achieve those important objectives regardless of the state of mind spouses happen to be in. I call it the Policy of Joint Agreement -- it takes the best from the advice of both our Giver and our Taker.

The Policy of Joint Agreement also avoids the worst advice of our Giver and Taker. In the state of Intimacy, we are encouraged by our Giver to sacrifice our own happiness so that the other person can be happy. In the state of Conflict, we are encouraged by our Taker to let our spouses sacrifice so that we can be happy. Neither of these are worthy objectives because in both cases someone gets hurt.

In marriage, your interests and your spouses interests should be considered simultaneously. One of you should not suffer for the benefit of the other, even willingly, because when either of you suffer, one is gaining at the other's expense. If you both care about each other, you will not let the other suffer so that you can have what you want. When you are willing to let the other sacrifice for you, you are momentarily lapsing into a state of selfishness that must somehow be corrected before damage is done. The Policy of Joint Agreement provides that correction.

Your DH is currently in the state of Taker. That means he wants to take his "guys pool night out" because it makes him feel happy, whether it hurts you or not. You have been placed into the position of Giver without wanting to be there, and it is building resentment in you. According to the Policy of Joint Agreement, neither one of you should do ANYTHING until you both agree enthusiastically.

Thus, I suggest that you have a serious discussion with your DH. This is where transparent honesty comes into play, because you are going to let him see the real you and even if he may not like hearing it, you are going to tell him the truth. However, you are going to keep the openness focused on YOU discussing YOUR stuff and YOUR feelings, using *I* statements. Don't say "You did this..." and "You did that..." and "You hurt my feelings..." Instead, reveal yourself: "When you go out with boys for pool night despite my telling you several times that it hurts me, I think that you are being selfish and don't mind hurting me one little bit, I feel sad and lonely and hurt and angry and resentful, and so I'd like to respectfully request that from this point forward we AGREE on the pool nights ahead of time--and that if we don't agree ahead of time, you don't go. I think I could negotiate something I would be enthusiastic about if we decided it together--but by not including me in the decision, it builds more and more resentment inside me. Would that work for you?"

For one thing, guys tend to love it when you give them a solution. You feel sad, hurt and lonely--but how does he solve that by not going to play pool?? See?? But if you tell him how to solve it via respectfully requesting what it is that you truly want, lots of times it's a relief.

I will point out to you one obvious thing. You are doing a Respectful Request. That means he has the freedom to choose "yes that's okay me" or "no that doesn't work for me" and not be punished for choosing "no". However, if he does choose "no" ask what WOULD be okay with him--because it really is not acceptable for him to be willing to hurt you over and over again, knowing that it hurts you. If he choose that, then you will know that he is self-centered on this issue and you may have to decide if you can live with him trampling that boundary. (A boundary is a limit you put around yourself, and in this instance, it would be the boundary of not putting yourself in a position to be knowingly harmed over and over).

Soooo...try to talk. To help remember it, it's WTFS:
WHEN you--
I THINK--
I FEEL--
SO I'd like to request--

((((((((((diana49))))))))))



--CJ

FWIW - I have been using POJA on my XH, without his even realizing it, he's going along with it.

The only exception being my vetoing his wanting to take our kids on a 4000+ mile road trip to visit the GF that left him in April - I just didn't think it was a good idea because the kids don't want to see her again. That among other reasons - but that was the big one.

On just about everything else, business, kids, etc., I have been able to negotiate each other situation that has arisen since I became enlightened on the simple science of POJA.

JinGA

The example I gave is hypothetical...it is not true. I'm just trying to understand if it is right to continuously "nag" your spouse when they are hurting you because of something they continue today...especially when they see nothing wrong with the activity...and it(the activity) was occurring before the marriage.

I understand that it's hypothetical. Read the section on POJA - again if you have already read it.

The same type of thinking applies to any situation. Bottom line is that if both spouses do not embrace the situation enthusiastically, it should be a no-go.

Nagging is NOT ok. If you get creative, there should be a suitable negotiated answer to all situations.

JinGA

I have read about POJA...a couple of times. Let's say the couple has not adopted POJA. I'm just trying to figure out how a person can be radically honest w/o nagging if a hurtful behavior continues. I mean ...do you keep telling the person over and over again "I feel hurt when...", when they have are aware that they are hurting you but still continue with the behavior?

If they have decided not to POJA, then they are using the Win-Lose method of resolving questions and disagreements. That means every situation will have a Winner and a Loser.

When you have to be the Loser in a relationship, and you have to watch how perfectly happy and content your spouse is with you being the Loser, all it does is build more and more and more resentment.

You cannot have anything resembling a healthy relationship when one or both members are constantly seething with hurt and resentment.

POJA presumes that hurting your partner is NOT an acceptable outcome, because your goal is to find some solution that does not hurt either one of you.

Win-Lose presumes that hurting your partner IS an acceptable outcome, because your goal is to avoid being the Loser. This is how most people approach marriage. It's also why many, many people are so miserable in their marriages (*even when they are usually the Winner!*) and explains why they remain miserable unless and until they learn a better way.

That better way is called POJA.
Mulan

As I mentioned above, in the Win-Lose method the outcome of "hurting my partner" IS an acceptable outcome. That's why telling them "I feel hurt" has absolutely no effect. They know you're hurt. They're okay with it. That's what happens with Win-Lose. What's your point?

The only way they will stop hurting you is for them to fully embrace POJA. But people who are used to Win-Lose, and who are most often the winners, usually hate POJA with every fiber of their being. Why? Because the only way they know is Win-Lose. POJA is Win-Win but they do NOT believe that. If my partner is Winning then I must be Losing somewhere, even if I'm winning too!

Win-Lose fans can be extremely resistant to giving up the imbalance of power in the relationship, but the marriage is usually doomed if they don't. You can't love someone when you have to watch day after day after day how perfectly happy and content they are to let you get hurt.
Mulan

How about instead of nagging, suggest an alternative solution.

It's easy enough to say, "No you aren't going to do that" which usually results in the other person doing it out of spite (I know I react that way...)

If you approach it from another way, from POJA, it doesn't matter if the other person isn't consciously aware of POJA because human nature will let it work.

Here's an example... last weekend I wanted Saturday off (XH and I own a business together). He'd initially agreed to cover for me (he works that day anyway - he'd be shorthanded). He got angry with me about something else and "punished" me by reneging on his agreement. The conflict that sparked that was the Sunday before I wanted the day off. None of *that* is a good example of POJA... but I'm setting the stage for how I enacted POJA.

The next day, when he'd calmed down, I approached him again about covering for me. He said he would, if certain conditions were met - that our help would come in, and a certain administrative task was done (to make things easier for him). I agreed to get the admin task done, but unfortunately our help wasn't available. I did let him know that I would only be a phone call away should he need help (via phone - not in person).

He agreed to that.

Win/Win. I got my day off with my kids, he had some backup support to cover for me while I was away. Neither of us had to give anything up. He called me with questions 10 times, BTW - I answered my phone each time.

I've worked out a couple of other situations like this too.

Keep in mind, this is my XH... we're divorced and don't live together. He has no real stake in making anything easy for me, nor I for him, except that we still get along pretty well (and I'd like to reconcile, but he's not willing to do that - not now anyway).

For spouses who are supposed to be committed to their M... POJA should be fairly easy.

In my experience - personally as well as observing others, I think too often we feel like our spouse should just naturally see things "our" way - and no other way. I've been guilty of that, and I'm trying to see things from both sides now (even though I am currently unattached) - these principles apply to other relationships too, not just spousal ones. Applying these things makes us better friends to those we care about too.

JinGA

To boil it down for you a bit more:

There are two methods that couples can use to resolve the questions and differences of opinion and disagreements that come up in every marriage. These are:

1) Win-Lose
2) Policy of Joint Agreement

The vast, vast majority of couples use the Win-Lose method, mostly because they grew up seeing their parents use it on each other and it's all they know.

With Win-Lose, every situation will have a Winner and a Loser.

With Win-Lose, your only goal is to avoid being the Loser.

With Win-Lose, the outcome of "hurting my partner" IS an acceptable outcome.

Win-Lose is also the reason why Marriage is largely a synonym for Misery.

It's why every wife is a B*tch and every husband is a B*stard.

These partners are not trying to help or protect each other. They are just trying to Win.

That's why telling your Win-Lose partner that "I feel hurt when you . . . " has absolutely no effect. They know you're hurt. They're okay with it. That's what happens with Win-Lose. What's your point?

But the trouble is – when you have to be the Loser in a relationship, and you have to watch how perfectly happy and content your spouse is with you being the Loser, all it does is build more and more and more pain and suffering and resentment.

You cannot have anything resembling a healthy relationship when one or both members are seething with hurt and resentment.

POJA is very different.

POJA presumes that hurting your partner is NOT an acceptable outcome.

This sound positive and good, doesn't it? But people who are accustomed to Win-Lose, and who like it very much because they nearly always Win, hate the POJA with every fiber of their being.

Why do they hate it? Because a Winner is extremely resistant to giving up the imbalance of power in the relationship.

They're not about to become Losers and they are fully convinced that there is no other way except Win-Lose to deal with a spouse and "everybody knows this".

Unfortunately, if they cannot give up their addiction to Win-Lose the marriage is almost always doomed – doomed to divorce or at the very least doomed to unending misery.

That's because it's impossible for your partner to love or respect you when they know full well that you WILL happily hurt them if it means YOU get to Win.

POJA protects both partners and allows both of them to Win. But sadly, many, many people angrily dismiss this idea and instead go through life convinced that the only way to deal with a spouse is through Win-Lose and that the only goal of a relationship is to make sure that I Win and Spouse Loses.

This does nothing but keeps the marriage counselors and divorce lawyers making money by the bucket.

Win-Lose or POJA. Pick one. It's your marriage.
Mulan

I have a friend in a troubled marriage - I have sent her to this site, but she took one of the questionnaires and she said it described her as a major love-buster.

Both she and her husband love-bust ALL the time. Only thing is (and I only hear her side of the story, but I have eyes and ears)... it's always *him* that is "wrong" and she's always "right" (uh huh)

I've tried suggesting to her some of the things I've learned here - and sometimes when she's describing things that she and her H are fighting about, I think to myself, "Gee I wish I had that conflict to resolve with my H, because I know how I'd go about it (POJA)"

There was a time when I behaved a lot like she does (although I'd like to think it's not to the same degree...I honestly don't think so).

I love my friend dearly but I grow weary of her always complaining about him, always threatening divorce etc.... but unfortunately she won't hear any helpful advice (OK I'm divorced so maybe I'm not the poster kid for marriage) - but she's on her second marriage - I've only had one <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> )

For their future I see nothing but bickering, infighting, Win/Lose (and I'd say the score is about even - he wins some, she wins some)... and either a lifetime of freaking misery, OR another divorce (his 3rd marriage...)

Sad - I've led her here but she thinks it's hogwash because "she" isn't doing anything wrong....

OY!

If I had only had the benefit of *learning* from this site sooner. I found the site some years ago - before it was too late, but I didn't open my mind to it. I was caught in anger and negative feelings, and XH was caught in depression.

Of course a lot of this can't work with a partner with untreated mental illness... but darnit...

Hindsight is 20/20. Please - listen to the advice you receive here - because it's a lot easier to save your M while it still exists, than to try to earn it back after a divorce.

JinGA