Wow, I just read more, you guys are mad at me. I promise that I've just said some things wrong. Every action I take is out of love for her and not being the same person I was. I have to walk a fine line here. I was REALLY controlling in our M before so I have to word every conversation with her cautiously because it will sound controlling to her and that is not what I am anymore. I also have to think clearly about the questions I ask or suggestions I give because I have to first ensure my motives are pure. That is part of the reason I asked the question here, because I can't completely trust myself to be free of my old controlling habits.

I have sent her to this site and Dr. Peggy's, but she won't read. We've been to counseling and she just smirks. She just hates me and needs time to process that. I really don't know what else to do.

I'm listening though...

no

we think your "plan", your "agreement", is dumb and unloving and anti-marriage and will not work.

brutschm,

I fear that what you have learned to regurgitate is a simplified cure-all to A's, but you are having trouble with applying the principles. You have some nice explanations, but you are extremely casual sounding about your BW having SF with another. I fear that you are more intent on being "understood" than earning forgiveness.

And while it is her responsibility to understand how she contributed to this mess, she is going to battle forgiveness for you for a while. This A was recent, her pain, and recovery when you both have recommitted to the relationship, typically takes two years or longer. There is no quick fix (for you or for her), and certainly not by having a revenge A will she find peace. How are you helping her learn to trust you again? (No, there is no way she will do this "because you've changed". Actions, transparency is the only long-term fix.) Does she have access to your cell phone records? Email? If your A partner was at work, did you get a new job and agree to no-contact? Is your time away from your spouse accountible and reasonable?

What is it you learned from these books you have read? What was missing from your M before that lead to your A? What does your BW acknowledge was missing? Do you know your top 5 EN? Your BW's top 5 EN? What LBers exist in your M? I suggest examining this whole situation for DJ (disrespectful judgement) and manipulation.

No offense, but you still sound foggy to me. What you did to your M by having an A was/is awful, and yet you want to have it "written off" by letting your BS have her own. This justice system is self defeating. You are never going to feel what you you did to your DW, b/c you destroyed her faith - at least you are forewarned. And she will never truly feel what you felt - the secrecy, the rush of having more than your fair share, the pathetic attepts to justify the wayward behavior. This method of "getting to know you" stinks. And it has nothing to do with moving past the pain, this prolongs pain.

Again, you sound wayward still. You've returned to your M, but you do not fully comprehend why. You have no personal boundaries, nor marital boundaries, in place. I would bet your BW senses this, or you wouldn't be passing her around like dessert.

At this point, stop trying to educate your BW and focus on educating yourself. Your BW is in withdrawal. You need to eliminate LBers, and meet her needs. Once she is out of withdrawal, you can start negotiating on having yours met. You pointed out some references for her, and she isn't willing to read them. Fine. You work on YOU, and see what happens.

Here is what you do:

You move back in with her (she can't keep you out of your marital home) and you suck it up while she spews every hateful thing towards you for the next several months (and gets it out of her system), all the while you work to meet her emotional needs while avoiding love busters, and you sacrifice your own personal needs until she starts trusting you've changed.

Your plan will only allow her to find another man, cheat on you, and divorce you while you are supporting her financially. Which outcome would you prefer?

If you want to save your marriage, you'll listen to us. Moving out and letting her date around isn't done for love of her, it is done for fear of losing her and avoidance of conflict. If you love her, you'll fight for her.

Here's another idea:

*click on the "show all" button at the bottom right of this thread.

*Pull down "print" under the "file" menu at the top left of the page.

*select "print to pdf" or "save as pdf" in the print window.

Email this file to your W.

I can understand that she believes she's 2 angry and resentful 2 want 2 see help from a coach or counselor. But her/your "plan" 2 level the playing field will be a disaster, nothing less.

Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person 2 die.

The best revenge is 2 live well, which of course isn't revenge at all. It's living well!

-ol' 2long

Approaching this with "logic" won't work.

Your wife needs to feel some PASSION from you...some EMOTION...some REAL REMORSE, NOT logical discussions from you.

If it takes getting on your knees to BEG HER to forgive you, you need to do it.

She needs to feel that you WANT HER...that you ADORE HER...that you will DO ANYTHING for HER!

Emotionally opening up to her needs to be done in ADDITION to the meeting of her needs that you have been doing.

No. I have learned what it takes to heal from Affairs, and that there is no one solution, as all people are different. TIME #1, accountability, meeting needs, showing change rather than telling about it, being loving and respectfull above my own needs and fears. All of this I have been doing. For example, when she says she needs to go spend time with her friends and go out dancing, I don't CONTROL her and tell her not to go because I feel it is not good for her. I UNDERSTAND and EMPATHIZE that she needs time away from me to nurture her friendships because she was dependent on me. Having friendships helps her to feel safer in the relationship because she is not 100% dependent on it.



No, again. I tried to explain this earlier but let me try again. I was not ok with it, and I expressed this to her over and over. What I understood from her point of view, was not the betrayal that I've caused, but how she could be confused and not sure if this is what she wants. When I had the A, I was confused because she was working a different shift than I and going to school otherwise. There was ZERO time for us (one of the basic concepts I believe) to spend on our R, so I questioned whether I wanted to be with someone that didn't care about spending time with me. In the past I was extremely insecure and controlling. I'm not going to do that anymore. I am going to offer advice, speak of what has helped me, but not try to control her into doing what I think is best for her. That will drive her away within minutes. If you don't understand this, its because you're not in our shoes.



I would like her to understand why the A happened, but I am intently focused on earning her forgiveness. I have been accountable and broken all contact with the other woman. The one thing that I did not do was leave my job. I did discuss with her staying and she agreed due to arrangements my job put in place to keep the OW separate from me. But there are times she has to come into my building and that proximity (with no contact) is still threatening to my wife. I am searching now, although I should have done so immediately.



I am being accountable for my whereabouts and contacts, especially since I have not found a new job yet about times when the OW has come into the building. I apologize and express remorse often, I try to meet her emotional needs with affection through cards, flowers, snuggling, backrubs, gifts, etc. I DO NOT act how I used to with insecurities and control over any of her actions. I respect her wishes when she needs to be alone or spend time with her friends without me (this includes her wish to be seperated so that she can gain some self-esteem in being independent. Shes not going to date other guys, she just said that if she can't get over the hurt, eventually she would - so that's good). All actions are a 180 from how I used to treat her and behave around her. I continue to love her and be respectful even when she strikes out at me in anger. And yes, she has access to all areas of my life.



Time together was one. The big one though was: I had abandomment issues and I was a "Love Addict" where I needed constant proving of her love for me to feel loved either through sex or constant attention. In doing so I controlled and manipulated her to the point where I didn't believe she actually loved me anymore. So, the A was in part to strike first to hurt her because I assumed she was going to leave me like my mom left my dad.



She refuses to belive that any of this was her fault. She thinks I should have been able to handle it. And I'm not going to bring it up while she is hurting still.



Please re-read my other posts. This isn't my position or the actual situation.



Not doing this. I am loving her. Again, the dating other guys thing is not going to happen until she is sure she can't return to the M.



This is what I am doing. She has asked that I give her space to find herself by being independent, NOT dating other guys. While she does this she has asked that I continue to be her friend and a good dad to the kids and supportive of her since she quit her job to try to save our M after the A was revealed and before I left.

And trust me, I have been working on me. A lot! Here is more history: Divorce Busting Thread

I'm still listening...

Brutschm,

I have read all of these threads and what I sense is a man that does not know himself, respect himself, or even honor himself. There is little chance for a good healthy marriage unless these things are in place.

I would strongly recommend that you read and learn about relationships from Harley's articles here. I would also strongly recommend that you focus on YOU and your children and become a man YOU respect. To do that you need a definition of such a man, and I would like to suggest that you discuss that topic with the people here.

What has to happen first and foremost is that YOU become a man of honor and one that respects and likes himself. Not inlove with himself. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> But, a man that is worthy of respect by others. If you have a religious background use it as a foundation. If you don't...consider it.

Your W is going to deal with her demons her way. You really can do little to help her. She may well end this marriage or destroy it so bad, that you won't want to be part of it. That is HER call. You on the other hand need to be a good father to those children that do NOT deserve what has happened.

Focus on becoming the man you should be, get your life focused, learn what you enjoy and what you don't, take your children and do things with them. Perhaps your W will see this and reconsider, but you MUST become a lighthouse for her, and that starts by becoming what you are not now, but you can be with focus.

Read here, ask the members here what they think a "real" man is. Listen, evalutate, discuss and THEN develop a plan to become the man you want to be. It may save your marriage, but it most certainly lead you to a better life.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

Get back home.

Her love bank is empty and she is questioning whether or not she should be with you, and she's wanting to see what else is out there before she makes her decision. Does this sound familiar, like as in you six months ago? You know from experience that isn't the way to figure things out. You've made those mistakes for her.

Get back in the house and make no excuses for your past behavior. In your previous post you wrote, "She refuses to belive that any of this was her fault." This attitude has got to go. She was 50% responsible for the state of the marriage, but there was no excuse for your affair. If you continue to project this kind of attitude, it is no wonder you are having major problems. Just suck it up for a while, meet her ENs, and avoid LBs. Give it time to fill up her LB. When she yells at you it is a good opportunity to meet her need for conversation. Listen to her. Let her rant. All you need to say is that you understand how she feels or that your sorry that she feels that way. Afterwards you can say something like, "I know if I continue to work on myself and be patient that things will eventually work out, and if there is one thing that you realized, it's that she is worth the wait. Keep this positive attitude up and put your taker on hold.

This is the same plan I executed after my WW ended her affair. The situation is different, but our W's mindsets are the same. She wanted nothing to do with me for several months. However, she noticed changes even though she showed no outward display and eventually, she started to re-engage in the marriage again. You need to be in the house for your children. You need to be in the house to work on your marriage.

Okay, that's good. But going to the opposite extreme is no better. Telling your wife that you are now so secure and non-controlling that you're fine with her taking her panties off and spreading her legs for other men is not going to help either.

(Did that sound rude and crude? Good. It was meant to. Because that's what your wife is hearing from YOU. How do you think it's going to make her feel? Like she's garbage to you, that's how.)

You are getting excellent advice from all the posters here. I hope you will take it. You cannot assuage your own guilt by pushing your wife into the same destructive acts, but I get the impression that's what you're trying to do.

Please listen to what the folks here are saying. Go home and give your wife time - and tell her you would rather die than have to see her so much as go to a movie with another man, much less go to bed with one.
Mulan

I'm glad this came up. This is happening in me! Granted, it has been slow, but in the last few weeks, I have truely given everything I am to God. At first, I admit, I wasn't sure who I was or what was important to me because I had lived my life is such a self-centered way before. So when I would have doubts about what the right thing to do was, I would do nothing, until I figured it out. But now, I truely do value myself and trust in God in that if I do things according to how he would want me to: Put others needs above mine, act not out of fear of what may happen to me but out of love for the other person, avoid lust, etc., in acting that way I will be ok and life will be ok. I'm human, I made a mistake, but I have learned a lot about myself, and I have much to go, but I am light-years ahead of where I was 7 months ago.

I can't live in the same house with her. I have expressed to her that that is what I want. That I want to work on us and I love her etc. etc. So I have been open to my needs and my opinions about what is best for us. However, I can't FORCE my will upon her. I'm not going to do that to anyone again. Her reality is real to her, and it is not up to me to change it. I can offer assistance, which I have, but I cannot FORCE my will upon her. Does that make any sense?

I am really frustrated that the people on here see some weak man in me. I get a totally different reaction on the Divorce Busting website. It doesn't really matter though, what I have to hold true to is being the man I believe God wants me to be. And that is to love, honor, and respect my W as Gods child. Which I believe I am doing. Yeah, I may not be doing it your way. But I am doing what is right because I know my wife, you can't possibly know her in 7 posts on the internet. And I'm doing what I believe God wants me to do.

If you could, briefly tell me what I should be doing? Should I be nailing her hair to the floor and telling her she can't leave because I KNOW what needs to happen and she BETTER do it cause I'm a MAN now and I won't stand for it? If I get a yes then I know I've come to the wrong place...

uh - dude - please go back and read all the posts on this thread at least one more time. People have told you very clearly what you should be doing.

Please slow down and read the posts again until you can absorb them. We are just trying to help.
Mulan

Well...what you NEED to do is to realize that the "plan" you're working right now is doomed to failure. Space isn't going to heal your marriage. What it WILL do is give her anger and hurt a chance to fester away until it destroys what love she has left for you.

You don't fix a problem by "getting away from it". You fix a problem by FACING it, and working at the issues that created it.

I cannot see how 'giving her space' will let her fall back in love with you. Can you explain this to me? If you're not 'with her', how can she see that you're someone worth loving? Odds are, she won't. All she'll ever see is the last thing she felt for you...her anger and hurt and bitterness. And that will burn in so that it stains her mental/emotional image of you. That's all she'll feel when she thinks about you.

What you need to do is to CHANGE what she feels when she thinks about you. How can you do that when that "space" is there?!?! You can't. You have to get her to let you close enough to trust you again. That's HARD...because you're not trustworthy anymore. She's going to need reassurance, she's going to need to SEE those changes. Again, can't do that from across the room, can you?

Go back and re-read about plan A here. Granted, YOU are the wayward one, but the idea of showing her the kind of man she would WANT to be married to makes sense to me.

Oh, and your whole fixation on 'controlling her'...and (it appears) HER fixation on that??? That sounds like what we hear from EVERY SINGLE WAYWARD SPOUSE WE SEE HERE. Even if she's not in an affair, mentally she's ready to be. Given that 'space', I'd bet you a billy goat it'll happen within weeks/months.

You don't seem to like the advice you've been given here so far. I'd suggest that perhaps you can better explain how YOUR plan will work better than what we've recommended? HOW does your plan make the changes needed to win your wife back?

Perhaps I misunderstood your thread. Are you concerned because your BS needs some time to think, or is your thread title accurate, and your BS is planning to date...

If your BW needs time to think, most certainly give her time. And space. But you can do so, and move back into the house (where you get credit for having the wherewithall to not hound her with an ultimatum). If the only way you can not be controlling is to stay out of the house, how do you plan to continue in the M? I doubt this is your goal, and I doubt this is what you intend. So what you can do is show her you accept her feelings, validate her feelings, respect her decisions, and still be in the same space. Don't crowd her, but be securely available. Don't whine. Don't make threats. Be helpful to your spouse (but not to an A).

And it sounds like your job is still a point of contention. You ask what advise there is, and you already know this one: If this is still grating her, move like the wind to get a new job. It has been 6 months since discovery. Your drive to get away from a hurtful situation will be evident, and you need to be pro-active to the extreme in getting a new job. Apologies are just words. Action will speak volumes. It sounds like you know this, but your reluctance to seek another employment (which is a royal PITA, I know!) may be coming across as reluctance to embrace the necessary change. It sounds like you are trying very hard, but at this point your W needs actions she can trust, not words.

You want to know what to do? Define your boundaries. What is your boundary regarding your W seeing OM? You don't want to come across as controlling; but then again, you can insist that the M is respected or you won't be available. Your boundary s/b to protect yourself, and also your M, from the pain inflicted by A's. You made a mistake, and you are owning up to it. If your W wants to make the same mistake you did, then you need Plan A before Plan B. Subtle differences define Plan A and blindly supporting your BS's A: Plan A allows you to avoid abuse. Blindly supporting your BS does not. Plan A shows that you care, but you are a person deserving of respect. Blindly supporting does not... Plan A says I will continue to pay the mortgage if I live there, blindly supporting pays the bills for your BS and her OM (dinner, hotel, a cruise... where does it end).

So what are your boundaries?

YES! That is it! My BS needs time to think to figure out what she wants in life and to gain some self-esteem and self-respect back by doing something for herself. I'm sorry my title was misleading (I was confused after our initial discussion). This is not dating other guys, it is living on her own, getting her own place and paying her own bills and the like.

I can be not controlling with her in the same house. But she has said that she is not happy living with me. She has expressed that I do everything that she needs and wants in a husband, but that she can't get past her bitterness and resentment over the A, and that is why she needs her time apart to clear her head. For us, since we share kids and finances still, I believe that we will have enough time together so that I can show her that I accept her feelings, validate her, respect her, and be her friend. My C said that she also needs time to miss me. Because if she has me there loving her and meeting all of her needs while still holding onto the resentment, then she won't SEE me meeting her needs. But with the physical seperation (as happened the last time) she begins to miss me being there, holding her, talking with her, and being her friend, and then reaches out some more, and I am there to meet her needs. As long as I do nothing that makes her resent me while she is away, then she will see that I have changed and that I am committed to her and ready to love her as I never have before.

Trust me, the job thing I'm working on, but I know I could do more.

I did define my boundaries but I think I was a little off. When we had our first discussion I told her that I couldn't allow her to live in the same house as me knowing that she doesn't love me and her plan was to go date other guys. So I told her that she would have to move out while she figured herself out because it would hurt too much for me to see her everyday knowing what her intentions were. (In writing this is seems a little self-centered by may be in line with what you are asking about boundaries).

Another thing that makes this difficult is the impact on the kids. She just moved out last week and for her to move back in (especially after I moved out then back in just a couple months ago) would be a little too traumatic for them right now. I think since we decided this (if it was in error or not) if we stick to the time and space plan while I continue to validate and be kind and loving in the times that we do have together, that will bring us back quicker than anything. Or, allow her to be sure she can't forgive me.

Does this sound better?

"This is not dating other guys"


wait a second... are you changing your story... you were very clear about her dating OM and even possibly having sex with them..

are you now saying it is just about her having some time to sort through things? Which is it?

I apologize. It wasn't about dating OM. She only said that if she decides she can't come back to the M, then she will end the M and date other guys. I misunderstood her.

It is about her needing time to sort through things.

Sorry about that....

Brutschm, what lead to your BW leaving? It sounded like things were moving along.

Was this a fight? If so, what was the argument about?

brutschm:

This is sounding less like a BW looking for space and more like a WW looking for an excuse.

Could she be having an A that you haven't discovered yet?

-ol' 2long

Are you certain that she hasn't already found a "love interest" and desires to remain separated while she "decides" whether to continue with "him", or "you"?

Might be some snooping would be in order. It would not be the first "revenge affair" recorded in these forums. Her ferocity to remain separated lends itself to "wayward thinking". Just something to consider...

It is still in your best interest to convince her, perhaps with the help of the Harleys, to "allow" you to move back in with her so you can better meet her EN's.

Keep posting, reading, learning...keep an open mind. This site is possibly your best source for points of view and advice than CAN make a difference in your efforts.

SD