sd:

We posted at the same time... ...hm...

No. It doesn't.

What you are suggesting in no way follows Marriage Builders advice.

If you have read any of the books or articles on this site, you will know that separation following an affair virtually always leads to divorce.

I don't understand why you are rejecting the advice of professionals with years of experience and excellent results - and I'm talking about the Harleys, not us folks on the message boards - and have decided to make up your own plan instead.

This is like a bus driver deciding he can fly a 747 so he pushes the pilot out of the seat - and then can't understand why he crashes and burns, which is exactly what your marriage is going to do if you follow your "plan".

Here's what you should do:

1) Go home.
2) Stay there.
3) Stop being afraid of your wife's pain and anger. That's the price of your having an affair. Be a man and take it.
4) Read everything you can about Plan A and start it RIGHT NOW.
5) Call the Harleys and make an appointment for phone counseling, even if it's just for you and not for the two of you.

and oh, yeah - tell you wife you love her and you don't want her to leave. If she snarls at you, just smile at her and tell her again.
And again.
And again.
Mulan

P.S. I have been reading here for several years and EVERY TIME any spouse says "I need space" or "I need to get away to think" it ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS means they are having an affair.

Think about THAT while you refuse to go back home and encourage her to "go away and think".

GMTA, Duece!

OT: Have you determined your route across the continent in August? I'm in Topeka, right on I-70, and would be happy to buy the coffee, or the first beer, as suites your needs <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

sd:

Hm... what's a GMTA? I'm tad more dense 2day than usual. I ac2ally put my pants on over my PJs this morning. Don't think I've ever done that before!

I'm probably going your way in August. Just don't know yet whether I'll have a friend in tow or not. But we can do beer anyway, if so. Might not be able 2 talk about As, is all...

...which ain't necessarily a bad thing!

-ol' 2long

G reat
M inds
T hink
A like

Still 2 ob2se? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Oh!

Well, in that case I concur!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

-ol' 2long

Things were moving along. Then I had some issues with needing constant attention, sex to prove love, and being uncomfortable with her going out to clubs with her friends without me. This reminded her of the years of control and backed her off. Then her dad got sick with heart problems and had to have heart surgery and isn't doing good yet, which made all of the problems in her life (my A) come back to her with full force. Once she backed off she couldn't see any more progress that I had made and the amends I made carried no weight.

Mulan,

I am taking all kinds of advice, not from just one source. My actions are perfectly in line with advice of many other sources, and they are working so far (not perfectly I admit) because she has told me that she doesn't want to get a D then regret it a few months down the road.

I believe if she was having an A or any kind of relationship with OM, that she would tell me. When I left she kissed some other guy at a party the next night and told me about it. Snooping would make her file for a D instantly because that is a blatant lack of trust, and would do nothing for me except provide me with partial information that my mind would warp into something worse than it is. She has been transparent with me and not hid anything from me in the past so I cannot ASSUME that she is going to behave in the way I did. I belive my wife is better than I.

I wish I had all the answers, but I don't. All I can do is what I belive is right for my specific situation, which is unique to all others. It may not be right, but I know what is definitely wrong, and that is to control her to come home. She did tell me once (or more) that the control of the previous years hurts her as much or more than my A. So that I have to be respectful of.

Thanks,
B

Read every thread you can for the next 2 weeks. Then return and tell us how utterly similar and common affairs are, once boiled down to the nitty-gritty.

And you came forth with information regarding your affair, almost immediately after it began? People having affairs LIE, and they become expert LIARS immediately. Lies of OMMISSION and lies of COMISSION.

I suggest you snoop, checking cell phone records for a volume of calls you can't identify, loads of IM's, suspicious purchases on charge cards including gifts, meals for 2, lingerie, new clothes, hairdos, nails, perfumes or motels.

Trade vehicles with a friend and do some PI work of your own...follow her and see where she goes, who she meets, what she does. Key part of the snooping...Don't get caught!

What would YOU do if you weren't paralyzed by fear of her reactions? Who is controlling who?

The answers you are looking for are in this thread. Giving her "space" to "find her way" is NOT one of the answers. There is more to this than meets the eye. Something is missing. But the answers to your dilemna ARE or will be in this thread eventually.

SD

brutschm,

This thread has become a mess. Your story keeps changing, and you keep contradicting yourself. She has in fact kissed another man. You implied she wanted to date other men, and then back off by saying it is only after she determines the marriage won't work. You say you moved out, but then you imply that she has moved out, and you have the kids.

Finally you say:
If this other advice is working so well, what are you doing here? Why are you asking for peoples time, thoughts and advice, when the advice you are already getting is working well?

You say you wish you had all of the answers, but you don't. However, you have in fact rejected ALL advice by basically saying you KNOW it won't work, and if not that, then the situation is not as you told us earlier.

What are you doing here and why do you want advice you will not take? If you think your W won't or isn't having an A, you are a bigger fool now than you were when you decided to have an affair. She can, and she might well have an affair and she will NOT tell you, until she is ready to bail if then.

I have an idea. Why don't you start over here and list the time line of all of this starting with when you got married, the age of the kids, the timing and length of your affair, when you moved out, when she moved out, and what YOUR plan is for saving this marriage.

Then IF you really do want advice perhaps the people here will be able and willing to offer you some.

God Bless,

JL

Rats: My whole post disappeared!


and


Why would you believe that? Kissing another guy and telling you involves far less risk than having an A and telling you.


From despair.com:

"Always remember that you are unique, just like everybody else."
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

From iloveulove.com:

"The Difference Between Secret And Private

Private matters are those traits, truths, beliefs, and ideas about ourselves that we keep to ourselves. They might include our fantasies and daydreams, feelings about the way the world works, and spiritual beliefs. Private matters, when revealed either accidentally or purposefully, give another person some insight into the revealer.

Secrets, on the other hand, consist of information that has potentially negative impact on someone else-emotionally, physically, or financially. Secrets, when revealed either accidentally or purposefully, cause great chaos or harm to the secret-keeper and those around him or her.

Private: I believe in reincarnation.

Secret: I have a wife and a mistress and neither knows about the other.

Private: I got terrible grades in high school.

Secret: I forged my medical degree.

The Difference Between Truth and Honesty

Truth is empirical, demonstrable fact. Your bank balance, today’s date, whether or not you’re married.

Honesty is about feelings. If you’re honest, you are open and clear about how you feel. You can be truthful without being honest and you can be honest without being truthful (the latter a little more difficult). The best relationships, stating the painfully obvious, are both truthful and honest. Trust is built on both truth and honesty, tempered by the proof of predictability and reliability."

-ol' 2long

Okay, one last time -

Please look at your registration date and the number of posts you have.

Then look at my registration date and the number of posts I have (and I have read many thousands more posts than I have written).

Then consider what I am telling you.


Yes, they are working so perfectly that you are living in separate houses because you are too terrified of your wife's anger to go home.


Please excuse me while I fall down laughing . . .


No, it's a blatant case of sticking your head in the sand. If she had nothing to hide, she would be glad to have you see her email and her cell phone records - but instead, she reacts like a typical Wayward and bullies you into backing off (by threatening to instantly divorce you). And it sure worked for her, didn't it?


Well, if you want to live in darkness and denial so you don't have to take any action, that's your choice. And it's exactly what you're doing.


Yet in the paragraph above you said that she would be FURIOUS if you snooped in her email. If she was transparent, you wouldn't have to snoop at all - but she's keeping everything a secret from you.


If you spend a while reading here, you will see that you couldn't be more wrong about this. Your WW and your situation are no different than any others. And that's actually a good thing, because it means that the MB plans have the same excellent chance of working for you the way they've worked for so many other couples.


You are not being "respectful" of her. All you're doing is enabling her and helping her to destroy your marriage.

I think what's really going on here is that you are consumed by guilt and terror and you want to think YOUR sitch and YOUR wife are different and special so YOU don't have to do all the admittedly difficult stuff we are telling you to do.

I feel sorry for you, because the way you're going your wife WILL have another man if she doesn't already and you WILL end up divorced.

I'm sorry you are not willing to try the MB plan. I'm sorry you will not let us help you.
Mulan

P.S. I think you know very well that your wife is already having a revenge affair.

And I think you are so consumed by guilt over your own affair that you feel you have no right to stand up to your wife over hers.

That's why you keep searching desperately for "solutions" that won't require you to stand up to her and fight for your marriage.

Sorry - there aren't any.

But if you could dig deep and find just five cent's worth of courage to get you started, there are many good people here who will help you the rest of the way. Read some of the other threads here and you will see what I mean.

Think about it, won't you?
Mulan

brutschm

What are you thinking?

No.


If you live in the same reality that I do and think that this will work: Yes



Read up and follow plan A.

Do not give her your "permission" to have an A. IT WILL ONLY COMPLICATE MATTERS.

I think he's gone.

would love 2 be wrong about that, though.

-ol' 2long

The history, that a few of you have asked for, and the circumstances leading up to the A, go back 25 years for me. Before I ever loved any girl, except my mom. This is when she left my dad and I. She had an A and left my dad for the OM for good. She was completely out of our lives for anywhere between 3-6 months. I don't remember her being gone, but I remember the day she bent over and kissed me and said "Mommy's gotta go now." like it was yesterday, or early this morning even. So, the abandonment issues begin.

Next, friends at school were always tough for me. My therapist tells me it was probably because I was too needy due to my underlying abandonment issues.

Now at age 20, in love with W and we get married, she's 18 by only a few months and I'm in the Navy. We seem to have a great marriage, few bumps in the road but nothing major. I had always been insecure and jealous throughout the R but nothing too psycho.

Now age 28, my oldest son turns 5. Big emotional hick-up for me. Guess what I'm thinking is going to happen when my son is 5? His mommy is going to leave. I become obsessive to the point where I'm asking her about every guy she talks to and accusing her of not loving me at every other conversation. Constantly demanding sex and affection from her. I can't create a feeling of belonging in myself, and accept that she loves me, so I demand it from her. Throwing gas on the fire, she gets a new job a the hospital working swing shifts 5 nights a week, we never have time together and I continue to spiral into my own self-induced despair. I enter counseling because it is so bad, that I can now see what I am doing. I go to counseling to begin to address some of these issues but the counselor wasn't that good. He did teach me to own my insecurities and not to put them off on my wife. Things got better for just a bit, then she added a night class for nursing one one of our only two nights together. I felt like this was a step on my neck, and began to recoil into myself, and pursue someone who loved me, since my wife obviously (to me) didn't. I couldn't self-soothe and that led me to need the affection of the OW at work.

There are multiple issues involved in the breakdown of our M. The most paramount are, my insecurities with myself, my fear of abandonment, and my need for acceptance from a woman. All of which I recognize, own, and am taking the steps to remedy. I am doing this for me and my boys and because I love my W enough that I don't want her to take the old me back, because I would just hurt her again, and she doesn't deserve that.

Affair Timeline:

Nov 1-22: I had an affair with OW from work. Told my wife I was unhappy and wanted to leave her but was willing to work on it. Affair not revealed. Broke Wife's Heart #1.

Nov 28: Told wife I didn't think it would work and that I was leaving. Before conversation ended, I agreed again to stay and work on it. Affair Still not Revealed. Broke Wife's Heart #2.

Dec 14: Told OW it was over and that I wanted to work on my relationship with my wife and family. Admitted Affair to wife. Broke Wife's Heart #3.

Dec 15-Jan 3: Working in couples therapy, wife staying and working on fixing our relationship. I begin to stray back to OW because I thought I had feelings for her.

Jan 4: Told wife I couldn't commit to counseling because I had feelings for OW. Slept with OW next night and realized I didn't love her, and only loved my wife. Admitted to wife and told her I wanted her more than anything. Broke Wife's Heart #4.

Jan 4 - April 16: Seperated.

March: We start talking, spending time together and rekindling some romance.

April: Trip to Maui, honeymoon stage things are going well.

Early May: I have a backslide in wanting constant attention from her to feel that she loves me.

Next week: I treat her poorly for not giving me sex, my old issue with needing sex to be loved comes back.

Next week: She says she needs to spend time with her friends and I need to do the same. I react in anger and rejection because she wants to go to clubs and spend time with her friends without me. This infuriates her because she thinks I still have major insecurities and I'm trying to control her again and not trust that she loves me. These are her 'Love Busters'

Next couple weeks: Shes distant because of what has gone on in the prior weeks and she begins to think she took me back too soon.

Early June: Her dad has heart attack and has to have heart surgery, so she feels like her whole world is crashing which makes her remember what I've done to her even more.

Then to now: She continues backing off. Meanwhile, I continue to get a closer relationship with my God and determine that even though she has backed off, the relationship will never be restored if both of us back off. So I make the commitment to myself to be present in the relationship, avoid love busters while doing my best to add to her love bank when she lets me.

June 21: She leaves which I've already covered, although I admit not too clearly. In summary, she wants time and space to figure out what she really wants, she wants to be independant because she has depended on me for so long that she needs to believe in herself that she can do life on her own. Shes not sure if she can get over the resentment and hurt so she can't work on the relationship now (we've been married since high-school and never independant)

June 27: We talk and determine that we cannot afford to live apart right now, she can't afford her own place and wants to move back in so we can get a handle on some bills until we can sell the house. I REMEMBERED WHAT YOU ALL HAVE TOLD ME!!! BEING APART WILL NOT ALLOW HER TO SEE THE CHANGES IN ME AND WILL NOT ALLOW ME TO MEET HER ENs WHILE AVIODING LBs! Right? So I agreed to have her move back in. She wanted to be clear that she is not moving back in to work on the relationship because she is too hurt and angry right now to try. (putting aside my 'taker' to accept this) However, I did ask that she notice the changes in me and to think about if I'm worth giving another chance now. We agreed basically to be roommates.

SO...

This is my chance I believe. This is my one opportunity to be present in her life, be her friend, eliminate ALL LBs and add to her love bank through plesant conversation, emotional support because her dads still sick, all of the ENs I can meet that she will allow, and be present and ready if she ever wants me to meet more ENs as far as affection and physical touch.

I was listening! But if I forced this on her and didn't allow her to make this choice, it would not have happened. But I'm taking my chance and running with it.

About her having an A... I can't control that. Part of my SLAA program and all 12 steps is to have the Serenity to accept the things you cannot change, the Courage to change the things you can, and the Wisdom to know the difference. I truely believe that shes not. As you guys mentioned earlier, she's not like me and I believe she has more self-respect than to do that. I can't focus on that though, because my energy needs to be spent on not committing any love busters, and meeting her ENs as much as I can and trying to break down her walls.

Ok, now tell me where I need to refine my plan...

Thanks for everything. This is just the fight of my life and truely emotionally trying. But I'm in it to save my M.

The detailed timeline helps a lot.

Good that you can admit 2 your shortcomings.

Don't try 2 control her now that she's home. Back off on the need for her 2 see your changes. Just make the changes and leave the rest up 2 her.

CALL THE HARLEYS RIGHT NOW. If there ever was a time that this was optimal, it's immediately.

-ol' 2long

Plan A... Plan A... Plan A...

Plan A your Hiney off! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

You are right, this is a good opportunity for you. Just remember a couple of things:

NO AO's, DJ's, or LB's. Avoid these at all costs. This is TOTALLY under your control. Don't shoot yourself in the foot. It will set you back (and hurt like heck! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> )

Consistancy: Consistantly show your "new" self. She will not be willing to believe that you have really changed!

She will be watching very closely to see if you will faulter. It will likely take WEEKS of CONSISTANT work before she will start to think that MAYBE you can pull this off.

She will NOT acknowledge your changes but she WILL notice.

If you fail to be consistant in this; she will use it for justification that you can't change and go ahead with her plans.

You have full control over YOUR actions / reactions! Be a man that she wants to be married to!

And as for what 2long said about calling the Harley's:

DO IT! It will be the best money that you have ever invested in your M!

Stay Strong!

Concentrate on what you can GIVE to her

Not on what you can GET from her

And

DO NOT

DO NOT

DO NOT

point our your changes to her and ask her to acknowledge them.

DO NOT DO THAT!

But do keep posting here and we will help you all we can.
Mulan

Took me a sec to get the acronyms. But definitely no Angry Outbursts (AO), Disrespectful Judgements (DJ), or Love Busters (LBs - I knew this one).

I really think God has prepared me for this trial. Can I be secure enough with myself to let go of the outcome, live today as the man I need to be, and love my wife purely for love of her and not what I expect in return. ONLY if I can do that, will I have a chance at EARNING her love and trust back through forgiveness.

I am so glad that I finally got two positive posts! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks guys/gals! Keep advising...