A very strong second to what 2long and wtf (and Mulan, who posted while I was writing this) posted above.

My meager addition, lock up your taker and toss the key for now, and give your ALL and expect NOTHING in return.

Your W needs to see a sustained effort, with much success at you being the NEW YOU, without the LB's, and quirky, needy behaviors. Possibly for 3 to 6 months. It will be difficult for both of you...

Continue dealing with your issues, and work VERY hard to control them. Everyday situations will try to force the old you out. Stop and think ALWAYS, before you act. Be very deliberate in maintaining the new you.

You are right, you have a chance here. It's like one wish from the good marriage fairy... use it WISELY!

Glad you stuck around. These forums can help you through this. Keep you grounded and all that!

Best wishes,
SD

Story I heard once that I liked -- and later saw it in a movie -- is this husband who told his new bride of an imaginary line in their bed. He will not cross that line for SF -- but she was welcome to cross it anytime she liked. The choice, and power, was all hers. The idea, of course, was to make her feel safe and respected as a person, not an object of pure desire/need.

You might consider the same. And, be prepared for a drought. Stay away from anything that tempts you otherwise. Great opportunity to purify your thoughts and actions.

Call it a penance, if you will. Just a suggestion...

brutschm - would you care for little "tough love" to help you along? If not, skip the rest of this post. If you do, the read on and then spend some quiet time thinking about what was said and reading your Bible to let God speak directly to you.

If God has been preparing for this, then the first thing you need to understand and truly embrace is that you can't change and you can't save your marriage unless you surrender both yourself and your marriage to God and His will for both.

HIS will may be that divorce is best for your wife, and for you, even though God "hates" divorce. I don't believe that is His will, but it may be the outcome without the surrender and real remorse you need.

But also understand that God has given a Faithful Spouse the right to divorce because of adultery. Understand, too, that when you engaged in adultery, that was the day that you chose divorce. Now that you have "come to your senses" you want to save your marriage, but your wife is under no "obligation" to do anything other than forgive you. She is not required to remain married to you if she cannot come to see that she CAN "get past" this enormous pain and your repeated lies and "false recovery attempts." It will NOT be your words that will "convince her." It will what you do and how you have actually changed that will SLOWLY begin to allow her to "take the chance" of trying to believe you "one more time."

It will be YOUR relationship with God that your wife will be watching. It will NOT be what you say, but what you do and how you act. Read 1Corinthians 13 at least once every day until it becomes more than "just words," until it becomes a way of life.

Now, on to your "abandonment" issues. If you are believer in Jesus Christ, then you need to know, KNOW, that because of Christ, God will NEVER abandon you. You are His child forever. He WILL let you do "bad things" and suffer the consequences for them, but if you will surrender to Him, He will not only be faithful to His promise of Romans 8:29-29, He will provide you with all of His strength to accomplish your living in His will (Philippians 4:13) Even if your wife decides that she cannot remain married to you (yes, the emotional devastation of an affair is THAT profound that it may well "trump" will not and become can not unless her own faith in the Lord is strong enough to overcome her very real emotions.

God does NOT only command us to "do" according to His will and teaching, He gives us all that we need in order to accomplish this.

What is your wife looking for and what does she need?

She needs a committed "man of God." Are you willing to give her what she needs?

I'm going to see if I can get an MB friend of mine to post to you also. She lived a long time with a husband who was not being a loving husband to her, and they are now in the process of recovering and building a marriage that is much more than what it used to be.

God bless.

Thank you all very much. I have re-read a lot of stuff on this site. I understand my W is in a 'State of Withdrawl' and my only way to get her to lower her emotional WALLS is to first eliminate all love busters and do not accept from myself even one slip up in this area. She is due to move back in July 5 after her cruise with her best girlfriend. I'll keep you all posted. I'll be checking often for all the advice I can get.

Thanks,
B

Remember: You can hope all you want, but you cannot expect.

Call the Harleys.

-ol' 2long

Brandon,

FH wrote:



I skimmed your thread and it appears that you could be my WH a year ago (June 30) and I could have been your wife for the previous 32 years.

(Exceptions: No abandonment issues and H had an EA not a PA....but it could/might have become physical over the summer had he not gotten caught. And b/c I've sought help on MB, not him, he's not posting but will when he's ready.)

Like your wife, one of the reasons I stayed (and she's coming back) was due to financial issues. Although we did NOT know about MB, my H Plan A'd me, even though he was in huge withdrawal neither of us knew about. If either of us had left, this would not have been possible or as effective. My sig line story has the sordid details.

I agree that you should call for MB counseling.

Find a local MC, too.

Work on you.

Let her notice.

Like FH said, she has to see changes in you to prove you are trustworthy.

Regarding trusting her, she is hurt and vulnerable, but if any of her behavior is suspicious, giving her blind trust will only make things worse.

Ace

Dude, I know you don't want to control your wife, and you may not be able to if you wanted, but a cruise with her girlfriend is a BAD idea. I have been on several, and it is a meat market with singles. Some people view them as a "what happens on the cruise stays on the cruise". I went a few months ago, and I saw several hookups with people I met on the ship (several were married and having a "girls vacation"). I'm not trying to freak you out, especially if you really can't do anything about it. If it were me and I wanted to work it out with my wife I would do anything humanly possible to keep her off that ship. This has revenge affair written all over it.

The truth is, I really can't do anything about it. I can't stress this point enough, if I don't TRUST her, there can be no future! I didn't trust her in the past and was ALWAYS accusing her of wanting someone else, of not loving me, dressing slutty, and much more! This is old behavior that if I bring it out in any way, especially while we're so fragile, it will be the breaking point. If she has it set in her mind to have a revenge affair, I cannot stop her. I BELIVE my wife to be better than me, she knows she's still married and (contrary to my posting title - my fault) has said that she would only seek other men IF she felt like the M was over, which at this point it's close, but not over. I kindof feel like this is a gift to her. A vacation for her to relax, not have to work on us, etc. She is starting back to school when she gets back so this is her last chance to take a break, a breather from everything before she has to dive into studying 24/7. I UNDERSTAND that it would be best for her not to go and avoid temptations while she is in a fragile state. But I ABSOLUTELY HAVE to trust her based on our unique past. This is one behavior that HAS to go. I UNDERSTAND Dr. H's philosophy on trust and that not preventing affairs in a marriage, but for us, I was SUPER-HYPER un-trustful, so she NEEDS to see this in me. This I feel is part of one of her ENs that I must meet. I cannot disrespectfully judge her. I can't assume that she will behave the way I did. This would be a Love Buster BIG-TIME for us! Am I making any sense? I'm sure Mulan will rip me a new one if I'm not! :-)

Anyways...

I just watched Dr. H's video on Infidelity and... OH MY GOSH!!!! I cannot belive what an idiot I've been about keeping this job!!! I wish I could quit right now and walk out the door but we desperatly need the income. It is SO TRUE that any contact with the OW, even when admitted, smacks my W in the face with all the emotions of discovering the A. I printed off about 13 job postings and will have apps in the mail by tomorrow! I'M SUCH A [email]DUMB-@$$!!!!![/email]

Thanks changd4ever for the anxiety over the next 5 days/4 nights! :-)

And... get this:

To really display my TRUST in her, she asked me to take her and her friend to the airport and pick them up! Without hesitation I agreed.

Now MULAN (and all),

This is NOT because I don't CARE that she is doing something that I have been told to NOT let her do. It is to show her that I'm her friend and can be supportive of her NEEDs and that I'm not going to FREAK OUT because she is away from me. IT IS A DISPLAY OF TRUST AND FRIENDSHIP with no EXPECTATIONS at all. Is this acceptable?

Where's Mulan??? :-)

Plus, I recently watched a documentary on cruises where pretty young girls get killed and thrown over the side... She's got a half a million dollar life insurance policy... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

You only trust someone who's TRUSTWORTHY.

Her attitude and current behavior and comments clearly place her OUTSIDE of that category.

To trust someone who isn't trustworthy is blindly foolish.

Have you ever heard of the concept of boundaries? Perhaps instead of discussing trust with an untrustworthy person, your marriage would be better saved by discussing the boundaries YOU violated in conducting your affair...and working out ways for BOTH of you to enforce those marital boundaries to prevent this from happening again on either side?

This is an excellent suggestion, however, I need to first breakdown her emotional walls so that she is receptive to it, without reacting angrily to it. This is my part to avoid LBs for awhile and feel her out to see when she may be willing to listen. She is still in a VERY hurt state right now.



I would agree with you, however, she has ALWAYS been trustworthy in the past. She has only SAID things recently, her ACTIONS display otherwise. And no, I haven't forgotten the kiss thing, but that was the day after I abandoned her and our two kids for some skank. I don't agree that I'm blindly foolish at this point. What I am operating on here is Hope and Faith in God that backing off is what I need to do for HER right now. I know my boundaries are weak at best, and most of you would argue that I have none. I am working with a PRO-MARRIAGE counselor that knows the both of us through our MC since Nov 06 and has agreed that I need to let go of the outcome and treat her as I would want to be treated, regardless of how she is reacting to the emotional rape of my A.

I always appreciate the advice, whether or not I completely adhere to it.

WRONG! If you blindly trust her, you simply set yourself up 2 be betrayed!!! The RIGHT answer is: If you don't trust her, and she wants you 2 trust her, she needs 2 behave in a manner that earns your trust, NOT in one that makes you suspicious.


It's good you're owning the bad behavior you are responsible for IN THE PAST. But it's now, now. And the fu2re lies ahead. You need 2 conduct yourself now and in the fu2re in a manner that you can be proud of. So does she.


No, you can't. But you can stop enabling her by agreeing with her and by blindly trusting her when she hasn't earned that trust.


Then that's your problem. She isn't better than you. She may have simply avoided having an affair thus far (if she really has), but that doesn't make her a better person. If you keep telling yourself that you're not a good person, you'll never become one.


My W felt she was "emotionally divorced" from me before her A started. Was it "over" then? and thus "okay" for her 2 seek other men? Of course not. As Dr Phil says "before you can have another relationship, you need 2 finish this one first." That means it isn't over until the courts say it's over. PERIOD. Separated IS MARRIED. "Emotionally divorced" is a marriage in TROUBLE, but it's still MARRIED.


Don't follow through with this utterly s2pid plan! PURE HOGWASH. And remember, you are unique, just like everybody else.


I submit that you do not understand, or you wouldn't be agreeing 2 this ridiculous plan of blind trust and putting your W in a position of temptation.

Why haven't you so much as commented on our recommendation that you call the Harleys??


Think about the powerful message you would send your W if you CALLED THE HARLEYS RIGHT NOW for an appointment AND quit your job TODAY. Do you have family who can help you financially in the short term?

-ol' 2long

The TRUTH is not lovebusting. Establishing boundaries may be something she'd rather avoid, but it's not lovebusting either. You can't break down emotional walls by enabling the kind of behavior that put them there in the first place (in this case, YOU having an A, including all the distance that led up 2 it).


Well, I do.


This is true, but I'd bet large sums of other peoples' money that this pro-marriage counselor would agree with us that letting your W go on this cruise is enabling and NOT instilling trust in anyone. Why not go with her INSTEAD of her clueless enabler friend?


And while I don't expect you 2 do what I suggest, frankly I do have other things I should spend my time on. And if you're not going 2 at the very least call the Harleys and get THEIR take on this nonsense, I'm done.

-ol' 2long

You should not take them to the airport nor should you pick them up.

You should tell your wife that you cannot stop her from going because you do not control her, but that the two of you have zero chance of saving your marriage if she is going to take off and do things that only a single person would do (go on a cruise alone.)

Tell you are very disappointed that she seems to think two wrongs will make a right.

These two wrongs are only going to pound nails in the coffin of your marriage.

If she wants to go on this cruise, she is of course free to go (because you don't control her and you can't stop her) but she will have to find her own way to and from the airport. She cannot expect her HUSBAND to participate in her marriage-destroying actions.


The line you wrote is practically the dictionary definition of a casual boyfriend.

It's not even close to being a HUSBAND. That's why it's not acceptable, not if you want to remain married.

Again, brut: Two wrongs do not make a right. You and your wife seem convinced that in *your* special case, they can. We're trying our best to tell you that they can't.
Mulan

I can't call the Harley's because I don't have any $ in checking, and I only have a Discover. Trust me I would love to. I would even love talking to one of you...(but I couldn't pay you either)

Ok, so if I take your advice, here is my prediction of how the conversation would go, you tell me where my words are wrong or how to respond:

ME: W, I understand that in the past I have controlled you to the point of pushing all of your friends away and making you exclusively dependent on me and never giving you the trust you deserved. However, I want this marriage to work and I belive that by supporting your actions that are destructive to our marriage, I am only helping to put the final nails in the coffin of our marriage. Going on the cruise is your decision and I cannot control you, however I cannot enable this destructive behavior because I am your HUSBAND and care about you and this marriage above all else.

W: THIS IS WHY I AM NOT HAPPY! YOU NEVER TRUSTED ME BEFORE, AND NOW THAT YOU SAY YOU HAVE CHANGED, YOU STILL DON'T TRUST ME! I'M NOT YOU! (caps are because she will be screaming at this point) YOU STILL HAVE A LOT OF WORK TO DO ON YOUR INSECURITIES! YOU CAN'T THINK THAT JUST BECAUSE I WANT TO SPEND TIME WITH MY FRIENDS, THAT I'M GOING TO GO CHEAT ON YOU! THIS IS THE CONTROL THAT I CANNOT STAND!

Me: It is not that I don't trust you or that I'm trying to control you. I never thought I would have an affair, but it happened. I know it crushed you in ways I will never know, and I am sorry for that. Part of what led to my affair was me getting my emotional needs met from someone other than my wife, and that was my fatal flaw. I am not the same person and I don't expect you to belive my words, but I know if we want a chance at all, we have to fix and eliminate what made it fall apart in the first place. I don't want you to feel the guilt and shame that I live with everyday and I want our marriage to work.

W: SO YOU THINK I'M JUST GOING TO GO OUT THERE AND 'F' THE FIRST GUY I SEE?! YOU CAN'T TRUST ME! AND THERE YOU GO, BLAMING ME BECAUSE I WASN'T HOME BECAUSE I WAS WORKING TO SUPPORT US AND GOING TO SCHOOL TO MAKE A BETTER LIFE FOR US!

ME: I'm not blaming you. I blame myself for not understanding what it takes to make a marriage successful. I should have come to you and communicated with you better about my needs. And while I admit I still needed help because my needs were excessive, I still should have only came to you for those, and I didn't and I'm sorry for hurting you the way I have. I JUST don't want us to continue in the lifestyle that made our marriage fall apart. I want it to heal and grow, from this day forward.

W: WELL, I TOLD YOU I AM TOO HURT AND BITTER RIGHT NOW TO EVEN CONSIDER WORKING ON US! YOU CHEATED ON ME REMEMBER!? I NEED TO BE INDEPENDANT FOR A WHILE TO FIGURE OUT WHAT I WANT FOR MYSELF IN LIFE. IF YOU CAN'T WAIT FOR THAT, THEN I GUESS WE SHOULD JUST GET A DIVORCE.

ME: I don't want to be divorced, I love you and want to be with you forever. I am willing to give us time, and you time to heal from what I've done to you. But if we're going to make it, we need to eliminate the behaviors that led to the breakdown of our marriage in the first place. I know you are still bitter and angry with me, but by avoiding us, we can't work to make this better.

W: wELL, I TOLD YOU THAT I CAN'T WORK ON IT RIGHT NOW, I'M TO BITTER AND ANGRY. WE SHOULD JUST STAY SEPERATED FOR A WHILE BECAUSE YOU CAN'T HANDLE LIVING WITH ME AND ALLOWING ME TO HAVE MY OWN LIFE. AND IF YOU CAN'T DO THAT, THEN WE SHOULD JUST GET A DIVORCE. I CAN'T TALK ABOUT THIS ANYMORE, I'M GOING BACK TO MY FRIENDS HOUSE. I'LL FIND MY OWN RIDE TO THE AIRPORT!

(leaving her with and angry taste in her mouth for me and more conviction that i'll never change...)

What do I do with that?

Focus on "I feel" statments, and stop trying 2 anticipate her response 2 what you might say. Just say what you believe, and do what you feel is right.

Oh, and if she responds 2 any of it by screaming at you, end the conversation until she's willing 2 have it calmly.

Walk away if you have 2.

-ol' 2long

One last thing to consider.

It's entirely possible that she won't ever be able to forgive you, or recover from the damage that you've done to her and your marriage with your affair. I think that God knew this when He made infidelity as the ONLY reason you can divorce...because He knew how horribly the BS would suffer from that, and sometimes its impossible for them to 'get over' the affair.

If you're BW is truly as you've described, it would seem to me that this is indeed a possibility in this case.

What YOU need to remember is what Mulan said..."2 wrongs don't make a right". If you go along with some foolish plan that sets the stage for your wife to cheat, you're enabling that behavior...you're doing even MORE to damage your marriage, IMHO.

I don't think I've got any other advice I can offer...your wife appears to be extremely hurt and angry by what you've done (understandably), and given the circumstances you've described and your own unwillingness to take a stand on the boundaries issue, I don't believe that there's going to be much more I can say here.

Good luck.

Thank you. I do belive what you guys are telling me is the truth. I am as you've said, deathly afraid of losing her, and willing to give up all of myself in order to keep her and our marriage. I can't stop the cruise, and I really don't want to because I trust and belive that there is no threat there. But after she moves home, I will 'sack-up' and attempt to establish boundaries, that may end my marriage. But as you've said, my marriage may be doomed if I don't stand up and follow the principles that have saved thousands of marriages. I have much thinking and praying to do on this, so keep offering advice please.

Don't give up on me 2long. I'm just scared to death of losing her and our marriage.

Thanks for putting up with me.

B

Good luck man. You may be 100% right in how she would respond. You know her and your situation best and you have to decide the best way to address the issues.

Based on the information presented in your thread though, I'd take the risk of making her mad. Only because I think there is a high probability that the consequences of your encounter will not be nearly as destructive to your marriage as will her partying it up like a single person in the Caribean (or whereever).

One other thing to keep in mind. Just because you have been jealous over innocent things in the past doesn't mean you can not be jealous now over things that are not innocent. Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean no one is out to get you.

I know where your wife is coming from. My wife cheated on me and I couldn't get past the pain and anger. I needed time and I wasn't willing to take it. I ended up divorced. Every day that you can keep the marriage going is going to give her another day to heal. She will eventually heal from this. Hopefully, you guys will be able to keep the marriage alive until that day. Good luck. I'm pulling for you.

Then you must have had a subliminal death wish, because this was most definitely the risk you 2k by having the A.

The stakes are very, very high for a WS wanting 2 save their marriage. I think people here are telling you that, yes, you can't stop her from going on this cruise. But I think you are eloquent enough 2 find a way 2 convey your concerns without LBing or enabling.

-ol' 2long