Right now your WW has not earn the trust to walk from the mailbox to the home as long as a MALE is around. She had an affair, she was seeking men to "talk to" (and I've got ocean front property in Kansas) and wants to convince you that all of this is okay. She know's its not. She just doesn't care. If you continue to take this from her your wife will have another affair with the right someone and that will be her ticket to leave in her mind.

Self respect and boundaries or she can hit the road.

How can your FWW respect you when you don't have self respect?

Letting her act this way is a huge disrespect to you.

Now she goes to the bar with her friend? I thought she didn't have friends that's why she was online. HMMM.

Next maybe before her A you might have trusted her. My FWW lost all rights to girls night out after her A.

It seems to me she has a skewed view of reality when it comes to her behavior.

Well I wish you luck on this. She obviosly feels entitled to do what she wants, when she wants and how she wants and you won't stand up to her.

ok, so i meet with the counsellor tommorrow.

Im going to show him the love busters, emotional needs etc.. and the questionaire. hopefully he will support all of it and take myself and my wife through it. (she will not be receptive to the questionairre if I presnet it to her myself, so im gonna ask him to present it to both of us)

im also going to give the counsellor my boundaries, but im still workign on them...

"I will not remain married to a woman who engages in inappropriate communication with other men"

"I cannot remain married to a woman who's stubborness and/or selfishness takes priority over my feelings"

"I will not spend my life in fear that my wife will meet someone else and leave me"

"I will love, honor, cherish and be faithful to my wife all my days but I will not put up with this"

"It is not my insecurities that make this so unacceptable to me, it is the value I place on my marriage and my self-respect"


hows that look so far (most is from weaver already <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />)

and one more..

" I will not remain married to a women who flirts in any manner with other men"

Sounds good <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

JinGA

Is the counselor MB-saavy? If they aren't supportive of the concepts, you should look for someone who is.

-ol' 2long

Met with the counsellor today.
Gave him the following from DR Harley...

Basic Concepts
Most important emotional needs (descriptions)
EN Questionnaire

he supports the above concepts and told me to have myself and my wife read the basic concepts and emotional needs descriptions before the next session.

as far as this mornings session goes, it was just me and him and I expalined everything ive told all of you and he was frankly shocked, especially over the dating website.

By the end of the session, and after talking with all of you it seems clear that I have a decsion to make.

It is clear that I need to set a boundary with my wife in that she needs to learn how to take my feelings and our marraige more importantly, specifically when she is sacrificing those things just so she doesnt have to be "wrong" or take resposnsibility.

the counsellor was blunt this morning and said that I really need to be sure that if I tell my wife that this boundary will consequences (if I end the marraige if she wont meet the boundary) in that I will actually follow through with the consequences.

so, I need to decide if I am willing to risk the possibility that I will infact have to follow through, and can I, or if I am willing to accept the fact that she will walk all over me for the rest of our life.

our next session is in July, and I guess I need some help here. I need strength, I need her to change, I need to be sure of what I am willing to do to make it happen and the possible consequences of failure.

Well the way I see it, without that boundary being in force, there *is* no marriage, despite the presence of rings and a slip of paper.

She's LIVING as if she's single. You are living as a married person.

The MC is right - you need to be prepared to follow through if she will not respect that boundary. And honestly, if she's that wayward that she can't see that what she's doing is detrimental to the marriage, you *may* have to follow through.

Actually since thusfar there has been no boundary or consequence, she doesn't get that it *is* a problem.

It's a problem - a huge one. For your sake I hope that she will eliminate that behavior and begin acting like your wife, but it may take following through - and even at that, depending on how addicted she is to that behavior, she may just let you go <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Not trying to be negative - just realistic.

Do you really want to remain married to somebody who disrespects the sanctity of marriage that much?

JinGA

Right on JinGa and if she makes that choice then you will be better off without her.

Did you expose when she had her affair before?

I'm thinking that the first step of your 'boundary' might be exposing her wayward behavior in an attempt to get her family and friends to influence her behavior in a positive fashion.

I'd talk with your wife first...I'd ask her to talk with those people that you know to be positive influences about these 'boundaries'...so that she can see for herself that you're not making them up, nor are you asking anything that's not a normal expectation in an acceptable marriage. I'd even go to those people FIRST (part of your exposure), talk with them about it, and let them know that you're going to request that your wife talk with them on the subject. That way you've verified that they're going to be that positive influence, and you know what they're going to tell her.

Realize that you don't have to state these boundaries as "the next time you log onto a website, I'm leaving". What you can do is tell her that "I won't accept you continuing going to these websites...I won't remain married to someone who so disregards me and our marriage." The first time or so that she violates this boundary, fire a warning shot across her bow. DO NOT IGNORE THE BOUNDARY VIOLATION. Perhaps you go to her and talk about it the first time...when/if it happens again, you talk with her family/friends about it...if she continues, then start a legal seperation.

Get the idea.

You sound like you're finally moving in the right direction...now wrap some good thought around setting up those boundaries and create some enforceable actions for violations for each boundary. Don't tell her the short term ramifications...focus only on "I will not remain married to someone who...".

Your actions now are going to speak far louder than your words...REMEMBER THAT!

I already exposed everyting to her family.

i just talked with her mom again and told her the counsellor pretty much said I have to decide if putting up with her stubborn behaviour is worth it.

Its eitehr I have what i have now, or i lose my wife, possibly the kids, everything, just to end the suffering/pain she causes.

/sigh reality really sucks

i think i can live with the stubbroness, the fact taht she wont admit she did something wrong. i can live with that because i love her and know deep down she knows better.

but, i still need a clear boundary about the online stuff.

am i being weak again by accepting the future pain/hurt that will happen when her stubborness hurts me?

Yes

how about this...

Boundary -
"I will not remain married to someone who conciously chooses to do things that will hurt me and/or weaken our marraige"

Then, i with the help of the counsellor, go through love busters and Emoitional needs etc.. to define such things that would hurt me.

The reason I say this is that the counsellor and her own mother are someone convinced that my wife would allow herself to make the mistake of letting me go in order to again, not be "wrong".

gah, i can't even stand reading my own posts.

either i accept it or grow some balls and protect myself, but it seems so much like it will result in the marraige ending.

Well, Langaan it may well result in the marriage ending.

You're caught between a rock and a hard place...

Put up with her hurtful destructive behaviors and be condemned to a life of misery about it.

Or

Enforce a boundary that ends a toxic relationship.

You can only control your actions. You have made her aware that this activity defies your values. You cannot be expected to "lower your standards" and even if you did, you would suffer moral conflict about it indefinitely. That's no way to live.

If your wife loved and respected you, she wouldn't have done this in the first place, but even if she didn't realize it, the moment you expressed that this activity is hurtful and disrespectful, she'd have stopped it, or sought counseling for it, or whatever it took to stop love-busting.

Living with constant love-busting like that will only breed contempt and resentment. Then it becomes a vicious circle - and it may already have.

You don't like it, you're resentful. She grows resentful because you're trying to set a boundary, so she's going to keep doing it out of spite...

Not a happy place to be in.

Honestly if she can't see that what she's doing *will* eventually cause the marriage do destruct, she's not worth the effort, IMO. And maybe it's just "chat" right now - but how long before all this "chat" becomes a full-blown affair? It's just a matter of time.

You have the power to set that boundary and enforce it. Don't wait until another third party invades your marriage.

JinGA

I know she loves me, and I love her. Respect or selfishness must be the issue.

i still think she has a personality disorder over and above her bipolar.

Love is a *verb* sweetie - she's not being very loving in this activity. I'm sorry - and I don't want to sound harsh - but that's a fact. She loves *herself*. She loves the attention she's getting from all these OM. You are her husband, you should be *enough*.

If she has a personality disorder, then it would be reasonable to ask her to seek medical care, or speak with the mental health professional that she sees. I don't know if you have HIPPA authorization to speak with her doctor - if you don't, you should - but most often spouses of one another authorize each other to speak with doctors about their medical issues.

If it is a personality disorder, then it can be treated with medications and talk therapy. However that still does not excuse what she's doing if she *knows* it's hurtful to you.

At the end of the day, you can make all the excuses you want for her, and to yourself. You are the one that has to live with the consequences of not sticking up for your boundaries.

If you'd rather live with the pain of what she's doing, instead of alone (which are your 2 options if she refuses to stop this behavior) then who am I or anyone else to say that is wrong? If you can be OK with it (but I don't think you are OK or you wouldn't be posting here about it), then more power to you, friend.

If I were in your shoes, I couldn't tolerate it.

My XH didn't take my boundaries seriously - and he was suffering from depression that he wouldn't even acknowledge, let alone have treated. I am now alone. And when he left, it was a huge relief.

Now - he has had treatment, has been stable for about 2 years, and I'm interested in reconciling ... he isn't (at least not right now...). So life goes on. If he comes around eventually, great. If not, I can survive on my own, because I've been surviving on my own - quite nicely, thanks <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Being alone isn't the worst alternative. It may seem scary, but it's not worse than living with somebody who makes you crazy.

JinGA

lagaan, you *have* to stand up for yourself, your marriage and your family. She is going to get into a PA sooner or later if not already. The evidence you have *right* *now* is enough. Something that helped me when 'plan A' didn't seem to solve it for me was a book called 'Love Must Be Tough'. Please read it!

Lang,

I think the message you are getting is loud and clear.

It is common for IC's or MC's to say don't say something you won't follow through on. So of course it makes sense.

I think being in IC was one of the best things ever. To have them validate your feelings.

You know it to be wrong because you wouldn't do it to her.

Even through this you love and respect her. Start loving and respecting yourself.

I think you feel responsible for her. Meaning you feel as though you can't leave because you brought her there. You took her away from her family. If you get a D she will be all alone.

I think she knows that. I think she knows you in your heart of hearts don't want to get a D. I also think she uses that against you.

YOu need the heal. You need to grow. You need to get to a spot where if your M were to end you would be ok. As a single individual. Yes it would suck but until she sees you would be OK with it then she will continue.

My FWW finally understood when I looked at her and said now I am done. I am finished. I have suffered enough indignity at your hands.

I am fine with leaving now. I did all I can and it didn't work. I can feel like I can walk away with my head up.

Then she stopped. Things are slowly getting better but not until I used plan FU.

YOu are a good man that diserves to be treated with dignity.