Completely discounting the feelings of the OP, because IMHO, they make a choice to be a part of the problem.

I've been thinking about this for awhile. I certainly understand that there is a very different perspective of the WS vs. the BS. But is there a also difference in how the BW feels vs. the BH and in how the WW feels vs. the WH?

I find it so hard to imagine my WH actually feeling the kick in the gut pain that I have experienced as a BW when he thinks about how deeply he has hurt me.

He also claims that if I were unfaithful to him and were honestly remorseful, that he would forgive me and we would recover. I'm not sure that he understands the extent of the damage to the BS at all.

I am particularily interested in the perspective of those here who have been both WS and BS. Can anyone put in words the difference?

Thanks,

Who

WhoMe,

I have experienced both sides of this.

I was first a WH at least 10 yrs ago. The A lasted about 3 months. It turned in to a PA. My BW was devastated.
Even to this day, I am not sure if she has forgiven me!

I can tell you within 3-4 days, I forgave her (since I helped to put her in the position to seek to get EN met outside of our M) and told her I had a strong desire to work on our M -- I asked her if she had the same desire, she said yes. I am not convinced of this on her part though. I told her DO NOT stay togther for the kids sake!

The thing that my WW mentioned to me is that I "killed something inside of her that may never become alive again. This saddened me tremendously!

I still question if our M is recoverable (from her standpoint) because of this point. I deep down feel she still harbors some resentment toward me or strong negative feelings!

Our M drifted for some yrs (been married 13 yrs) with the 3 kids (now S11,D10,D5) coming into the picture amd NOW I am the BH. The A had been ongoing for 1 month (May) and D-day on Memorial Day (what a memorial). My WW said that it was a PA in the form of kissing only.

Right now I am in plan A (1 month) going into the secong month this week. My WW says that the A is over yet still communicates with the OM whom she found out was married after telling her he was single.

I can tell you that I have hurt SO BAD and lost plenty of weight (need to gain weight just to fit my clothes again).
It is a daily chore to run the household knowing that my WW is still talking to this creep.

The impression (false or real) that she is probably more open with OM than myself feels like a kick in the gut.

I am even at work right now and I cannot even focus on the task at hand. I have taken many sick days off because this A has consumed my thoughts.

The pain is real and I have whispered to myself many times when sitting alone, "I now have a sense of how she must have felt!" IT HURTS!!!! Can't eat or sleep!

Some days I have felt like I just do not want to live (but the kids always bring me back to reality). I cannot be selfish and "checkout" of this life with others depending on me.

Simply bugs me how WW walks around like she is capable of keeping OM at bay
(since she is supposedly trying to squash the A (sure, OK).

My WW even tries to use my A to justify hers -- in other words, let me seek closure to this A (my way) since you closed your your way!"

She always brings mine up when we try to discuss hers -- If I ask her a question she replies, "what did you do" or "how did you handle it"?

Bottom line - My BW/WW and I (WH/BH) will have alot of work if this M will survive. Although I want our M to work and I DO love my W dearly, I question whether we can recover from this! It is possible to become better friends and even truly love each other more so now than when we were first married?

I know I have rambled -- if U want an answer to a specific question let me know!

swade,

Thanks for the response. Sorry that you are hurting so badly. My H and I have been on this roller coaster since 2003 and I have to admit that in the early days, I considered "getting even" by having an affair of my own.

I long since ruled that out as wrong on every level. I don't know if we will make it together or not, but I do know one thing. I wouldn't want to be responsible for hurting my H or anyone else the way he has hurt me.

After experiencing this, there would have to be something really wrong inside of me to do that.

Good luck.

Who

Who,

I think Swade's post was eloquent...the WS has no clue about the severity of the pain they really cause...because I don't believe we can imagine it until we experience it.

The way Swade wrote his post...that can't-draw-a-breath shock of it...wasn't in his recount of his own A...or what his BW went through.

What is extra stunning as a WS/BS is to realize that your spouse knew this depth of pain through betrayal...and their choice to inflict it back onto you, normal justifications and fog included, knowing how much this hurts.

Not a who's better than whom kinda deal...a conscious understanding that the now WS knows...and accepting that helps recover the marriage.

Who, I know you wouldn't choose to have a revenge A because you hold yourself to your own code. You don't allow yourself to hurt back when hurt...the tit for tat...nor the giving to get love, correct? And I believe you would have left your marriage before betraying yourself by choosing an A. You know your choices.

So when you ask about the dual perspectives...I can tell you that in a wayward mindset...I was totally focused on my DH's actions, not my own. Created and fed my own resentment (which I was adept into building into rock solid entitlement) through my lack of respect for DH.

Being a WS, there is pain before choosing the A...we convince ourselves we are not loved, not respected, or cherished...even when we are...so we experience the pain of not being loved by our partners, as if it were reality. Doesn't come close to the pain of being betrayed, in my experience. The WS has the PERCEPTION of not being loved...the BS has the CERTAINTY...that's what it feels like.

Neither are real. Many WS will say in all honesty, they never stopped loving their BS...I was one of those...always after the fact, btw. And no, upon this realization, that searing pain of the enormity of what the WS risked, caused and is responsible for...doesn't compare to the pain of the BS.

Just my opinion...what we choose to believe matters greatly...and during A's, neither side seems to know they are choosing. Maybe the WS didn't know pre-A all their choices...and the BS, post-A.

And as a BS, I believe you can share, describe, share the triggers...and your WS will not know the depth of that annihilating pain. One of the things a BS has to accept...that they did not and will not choose to ever inflict that level of pain on their partners or anyone...because they know. They really know.

And because the BS chooses this with awareness, the FWS learns how to cherish and protect the marriage, by understanding the BS's choices, even when the FWS doesn't feel like cherishing and protecting their spouse right then...reacting to their emotions. They learn to act to honor, anyway.

I think healing from an A takes years...hours and hours of talking, sharing as habit, living in O&H, and acting from our belief we love rather than our feeling of love. That's all new routines and high awareness. When we don't heal from an A, history repeats...with the same partner or a replaced one...again and again.

As for a BS turning WS...I LB'd my WH during an intense discussion and literally cried out, "How could you DO this to me? You KNEW it hurt THIS MUCH and you still did it!" What I didn't say was, "I thought you were more honorable than that...better person than me. I thought I was the screw up."

Funny how my own expectations could determine how much intense pain I caused my DH...and I didn't come close to understanding that pain...nor turning in my ways...until I read his journal and found out...as he was then WS...so I got his pain and my own...and that has made all the difference.

I had control over the pain I caused him...not what his choices were. And that's when I decided to save my marriage, find MB and do the steps to protect my marital boundaries and honor my DH...

Who--easy for your WH to say how he would feel, what he would think, when he hasn't come close to experiencing the pain of being replaced, like our souls rubbed out. Can't conceive of it, either...until you're there.

Do not look at his pain or knowledge of yours as protection for you...wasn't before. Only his knowledge of who he really is, changing all the steps that lead up to his EA's...and getting the REAL payoff in protecting and cherishing his marital boundaries...that will protect you and your marriage, Who.

And you can't make him see, know, feel, think or realize. He does.

Hope this helps,

LA

LA,

Thanks. I guess that I should feel flattered that Skirmisher trusts me completely. He knows that not only will I not be unfaithful to him, I'm not even tempted to, I'm not interested in relationahips with OM. I don't think I am a better person than he is, I just care a great deal about hurting other people and would really hate to have to feel that I had caused so much pain to any other person.

I agree that he can't know how he would feel, or how he would react. As much as I have suffered over what happened, I am still the strong one in our relationship. He tends to be far more emotional than I am, and I honestly think that as hurt and devastated as I have been, he would be far worse and would have substantially more trouble functioning as a BS. Back before his A, he used to be upset about intimate relationships that I had with OM before we even met.

I am not secure enough to not be pretty darn suspicious about his email messages and phone calls, even tho I haven't seen any evidence of contact with an OW, I will remain afraid of further betrayal.

He seems to equate my feeling this way with the fear that he claims he always has that I am going to change my mind and decide to end our marriage even if he continues to work on himself and our marriage.

I don't know what it will take to convince him that he really does have the power to determine our fate, more than I do right now. I would not have stayed in this marriage this long if I wasn't committed to making it work, to making it a good marriage that was happy and satisfying for both of us.

I will work on not LBing, work on meeting everyone of his EN's and try to help him as much as I can. But what I will not do is give him another chance if he ever betrays me again. So what the heck is he so afraid of? Only he can determine his actions.

Who

Who,

Insecurity is far more complex and tricky than we can imagine from the outside. Do me a favor and locate one of your insecurities...what does it feel like? What hits it and sparks fear? What thoughts rush in when it gets a direct hit?

As a FWS, I couldn't understand why my BH would stay and stay...since my biggest insecurity was abandonment...I EXPECTED to be abandoned (not reasonable...but then, insecurities usually aren't). Then I would DJ that my BH was weak (no kidding)...didn't want the inconvenience of leaving...was using me...that same wayward mindset persisted...it's a perspective with a lot of permissions in it.

Now, without the WS mindset...I see my DH as strong, choosing to be with me beyond my control. Nothing I can do can make him leave or stay...his choice. I choose to see him as whole, aware and knows the consequences of his choices.

Equally, I choose to see myself in the same way...which was not the case before. I was not weak...I was stupid. LOL. I was not confused...I was self-deceiving. The more I keep myself honest about me, the more clearly I see where my DH chooses to self-deceive, even today.

And he catches me, too...or in our sharing, I catch myself.

It's an ongoing process. What we learned was NOT to go into the future, "Oh, if you chose to do that, I'd feel this" when the speaker hasn't come close to experiencing "that" before. Or the past, "You did that before, so you'll do it again." We really do strive to re-center ourselves in the present...difficult to keep doing, as we are overlapped beings...our brains do not know time...not really. Just as they don't know reality from fantasy.

Which is why we self-deceive.

What I'm wondering about you, Who, is what you are finding the same in your first marriage which is present in your second...your stuff...same insecurities, what you're attracted to...what ignites you...because we can experience a phrase, a gesture, even a look as if it's happening again with our partner...and it's the first time our partner has done it...because it triggers us back in time...to our FOO, or what prompts me, is your first marriage.

We get handed feelings and their intensity based on the past...happening in the present...cumulatively. Quite the punch. I can't imagine being a second wife and all the ways I overlap, even now...I'm guessing and wondering here.

Would you consider your FWH fears himself the most? That he will screw up...be falsely accused...misstep, unaware, because deep inside, he knows how much he self-deceives regularly? I don't mean infidelity...I mean all those tiny choices we make..."Oh, she won't mind if I buy this" or "I like this cheese, but it's not the kind DW likes. I'll just tell her I thought this was the kind she likes so I can have it."

Tiny DJs...to ourselves about our partners...which is self-deceit, I believe. Training ourselves in thousands of ways, until the clear and honest path is murky and dark. We get lost. We know we do this...we don't unravel all the ways...we fear we will do this again. Because we can't believe we made those choices before.

We do not want to hurt or injure...and don't mind our levels of pain...until they get too high and then we DO want to hurt or injure.

Over the weekend, I did tell my DH I wanted to hurt him right then, to see if I would then have his attention. He didn't hurt from the statement...he acknowledged and gave me his attention. I think intimacy is not trusting your partner not to hurt you in any way...I think it may well be in being able to tell them you WANT to...

I'm working through this, too, Who. Your story, as I told your FWH before, really resonates with me from both sides. I think you have a healthy boundary you're enforcing around yourself...if he chooses, he knows you won't stand by him. There won't be a chance at a thriving marriage.

I wish Skirmisher would start his own thread and post. I would like to contribute to it. He's not weak, bad or wrong...and he's not alone. I know he loves you to distraction...and if you'll consider that statement...you'll hear the fear in losing you...the insecurity...and his choices are truly about himself, his permissions and false payoffs...not in his character...in habits.

What if you aren't suspicious...what if you choose to verify because to NOT do so betrays yourself? I randomly verify still...and I don't do well with DH not verifying at all. He never did or will, he says. Not his style. He doesn't want to know the truth independently of me being truthful...I could take that as a compliment, as an act of trust...if he had ever verified. Since he doesn't, I know that's his fantasy remnant...doesn't want to know. He'll wait for me to say my stuff.

Thank you for this thread...led me to think a few things through again. I believe verifying RESPECTS your FWH...not suspects him. It's your means of independently acquiring The Truth...very important, don't you think, to have an honest relationship?

Doesn't mean he's not trustworthy...means you no longer trust blindly. You build trust through verification. Just as you build self-esteem from your choices, not his...self-respect from your choices, not his...and so does he.

Doesn't mean you love less, think less of, does it? Means you no longer self-deceive in that way.

What do you think?

LA

LA,

Thanks for the response.



Well, this insecurity certainly hits home with me. Since I am the primary income earner and always have been, I often wonder if, to use Bob Pure’s phrase, I didn’t feather as nice a nest, if perhaps he wouldn’t look elsewhere.

I’m older than he is and I guess I too am afraid (whether justifiably or not) that he will abandon me when it is no longer convenient for him to stay. So I do DJ that Skirmisher is weak and incapable of supporting himself….so he stays even though he would rather leave and pursue other relationship opportunities.

This insecurity is a direct result of his infidelity. Before 2003, I never even imagined that he would abandon me, and I never worried about it a lick in my first marriage.




Well, my first marriage, was, different in everyway from my current one. I realized almost immediately that we were ill-suited for each other. I tried, I really did (for 12 years) to connect with my XH. He was cold, refused to show any emotion, and was really married to his job. He neglected me, and then our two adopted DD’s to the point that when I had to return to the US from overseas for my Father’s funeral, they weren’t even bathed while I was gone, for three weeks! So I left him, with only those things I could pack in three suitcases, no job and no where to go. He didn’t even blink.



Maybe you are on to something here. Could it be that Skirmisher realizes that I left XH over far less than infidelity, with no job, no home, and two very young children in tow, why not do the same to him? I am financially secure now and the girls are both grown.


I don’t know on this one, I will have to give this much more thought. If he does fear himself more than he fears me, he certainly doesn’t do so consciously. In the past, before his affair, I was pretty difficult to live with. I gave him plenty of reason to fear my angry outbursts and DJ’s. After d-day, when we decided that we did want to try and recover our marriage, I think he believed that all he needed to do, since the affair ended before d-day, was never have any contact with OW again, promise me that he would be faithful in the future, and let me read his emails.

He was never honest with me about the details of the affair. He continued to lie to me about several things until I had proof. That left me feeling that I would never know the real truth about anything and perhaps that is the real source of my insecurity, I don’t believe I know the real Skirmisher at all, so I don’t know what to expect in the future.

I was the one buying the books and trying to figure things out, alone until 15 months post d-day, I found MB’s and then I wasn’t alone anymore. But as I read and learned, I continued to be nagged by the thought that maybe I had really made a mistake staying in my marriage. I even fantasized several scenarios where I had ended my marriage on d-day and what my life would be like now if I had. Not healthy, I know, but it made me feel prepared “just in case” I needed to go it alone in the future.



Well that would be honest, if Skirmisher could admit to himself that his excessive attention to a woman at his class reunion and the related email message (that he had to have known that I would see sooner or later---because he knows I check once in a while) were intended to hurt me, perhaps way more than any intent to enter in to a new inappropriate relationship.

I don’t know if it was his boundary or mine that prevented him from actually sending a email to her. For me, the difference is huge, and I don’t’ think we’d be counseling with Jennifer, or making any plans for the future right now if what I had discovered was email message traffic with any OW. Skirmisher would be moving out about now.


I can agree with all of this. I don’t’, however, see him starting a new thread, or even continuing to read here. It’s not at all because of the 2X4’s, which were really a gift to both of us, but because they showed him what the situation really looked like from both BS and FWS perspective. The light bulb was so bright it nearly blinded him.

Finding the time is really more of the issue. While I have plenty of dead time at work where I can read and post, he is a freelancer and time is money for him. He stresses so much as it is because of his workload. I wish that he would continue here, but I really don’t see that as happening.



Verifying is a real challenge. Not that I think he is sneaky or has secret accounts or anything like that. I had really slacked off until recently. I would love to once again get to the point where I don’t have a cold knot of fear in my gut everytime I do check his email, or review the cell phone bill, or just look at the incoming call log for our land line. But, alas, that is exactly how I feel. Fear, cold and dark fear that he will again make a stupid choice without even considering the consequences and that I will then really have only two choices: end our marriage, or erase my own boundary, which of course, would cause me to completely lose myself.


I think that I agree, and it does give me strength to understand that having my own boundaries of what is the ultimate deal-breaker for me, and having Skirmisher REALLY understand what those boundaries are, assigns the responsibility for his actions right where it belongs, with him. This has been tremendously helpful to me because it simplifies things. He can choose to be trustworthy and honor our vows and behave in ways he knows are right, or not. He knows that I am honest with him and can be trusted, and he never has felt the need to verify anything, and that is a good thing.

See, I can live with being betrayed again and starting a new life alone if necessary, that for me would be easier than betraying myself first and thus Skirmisher and having to live with the knowledge that I was the one to ultimately bring about the distruction of our marriage.

Who

Great post, LA, I think you're right on.

Especially the part about a WS never really "getting" how the BS feels ~ that desciption of having that kicked-in-the-stomach feeling is accurate; the difference between when you are physically kicked in the stomach and this is the pain goes away pretty quickly when it's physical.

The pain from this kind of betrayal does not go away, ever. It may get better, but will not ever go completely away.

I have been feeling claustrophic lately ~ not in the physical sense, but in a "no-matter-what-I-do,-I-can't-get-away-from-this" kind of a way. I want to run away, but know that it won't help, the pain and hurt will follow me. I have no choice but to get through it.

[Hi Who! Sorry for the threadjack, just wanted to throw my $.02 in here!]

MF,

No problem......great point BTW about the pain of betrayal never going away. It does numb a bit, and it is less intense, but it is always there, just waiting for a trigger to bring it all back in the blink of an eye.

That is why, at least for the foreseeable future, I will get that knot in my stomach everytime I check up on Skirmisher. It is a very real fear of reliving the past again with just some new OW, only the next time, if there is one, there will be zero chance of recovery. I'm just too used up to even contemplate it.

How are you doing????

Who

Who,

I understand the knot of anticipation...facing the unknown. At the point you're verifying, though, you are only facing what is unknown to you, yet. Whatever has been done has already taken place. Your power is in having your own method to discover the truth. Positive power.

So part of the knot isn't reasonable...the other part is totally reasonable. I'm talking about halving the knot, here. I trigger, also, to having to verify...and recently, I had to go through cell records of my SON to find out where he was...and I triggered to going through my H's cell records...my stomach knotted up again. Getting the repeated numbers, doing the reverse search...only difference, it was my DH right there CALLING those numbers and asking about his own son. I had to hold that inside and then bloom a little. We were in it together.

I had the automatic bellyache trigger...and then it was gone. Just like that. I saw my power to know the truth, not have it hidden from me or sole-sourced in my DH's hands.

And the other part is knowing we trigger to a lot of stuff in ourselves, years, even decades, away from the event. Not just infidelity. Smells, especially...we have welcome triggers (smelling barbeque on a breeze can put us right into summer as a child) as well as unwelcome ones. Our brains aren't against us...they are just indiscriminate.

Darn brain.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA

wow. As a BS, this is really having an affect on me. I have often thought of having a revenge A (though not seriously, I can't bring myself). And yet, I NEVER thought about it like that. My thoughts have always gone back to-- it wouldn't matter, it would never hurt him like this hurts me, he would just leave me and go off with his OW and be just fine.

Thank you for that perspective.

SE,

Problem with revenge A's is the same with regular ones...you can never erase them. So when you realize that your DJ that it wouldn't matter, wouldn't hurt him like you hurt...for a flicker of an instant...you get that, "See? See!!??" and then the irrevocable sets in...knowing you did this...and it's not even, can't be...doesn't make anything equitable, makes it doubly worse...and how much you betrayed yourself.

Doubles your pain as a BS/WS...doesn't sound like it would. Then again, it's always after we take the action we think will reduce our pain (the fantasy) by inflicting it on others, that we realize, it doubles, not halves. Never before. I wonder why?

As a FWS, you cannot look yourself in the eye with a clean slate...as a BS, you can. Your choice. I'd keep the clean slate, with chin up.

Unfortunately, I cannot.

LA

Sorry for thread jacking, Who, but...

LA, you have soooo gotten to me with that post. My potential OM is married. And the reason I kept deciding NOT to have the A had nothing to do with my WH or even myself. I did not want to do it to the OMW. But I had not considered that point of view, and you may have just saved me from really messing up when the potential OM is single...

SE,


I think that is as good a reason as any, but think of it this way, even if potential OM was single, wouldn't having a revenge affair be sort of using that person.

I always figured, heck, what if this innocent person were to fall in love with me, how would I feel, knowing that I had just used them as part of my own selfish revenge. Not good I think.

BTW, welcome to MB, it is a good place to be under the circumstances. You will find it a wonderful place to share, learn, teach, commisserate, and even vent.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Like today, I feel like poop, had a rough (for Me) session with Jennifer last night, and lost a temporary crown so had tooth pain all night.

So try to keep your chin up and strap yourself in, because one way or the other, the ride tends to be a bit bumpy.

Who