After reading and posting here since Jan I think I am finally committed to jumping on the MB bandwagon with both feet. Up until recently I've had one foot on and the other not quite there yet. There were a few MB concepts I didn't quite agree with, but I guess this stuff sort of grew on me. It all makes sense to me now and I see where I made some huge errors after I ended my A. I know in my heart our marriage has recovered from my A, now it's time to be sure things keep moving in the right direction.

Even though my H and I have both read HNHN we have yet to fill out the EN questionnaire. I am printing it off today and will ask him to go through it. I have a feeling he will take this all the wrong way. Whenever I want to talk about our relationship he gets very nervous and thinks there is something wrong. I am going to do my best to show him we are doing this to make sure things continue in the right direction. There are a few issues I would like to have POJA about, one of them will be when and how to educate our children about infidelity. He is dead set against anyone knowing about my A, including 2 of our girls who do not know. One DD found evidence last year and asked me. He prefers to just leave it in the past and never talk about it again. I would like to ask him to view Dr Harly's video clip about infidelity, but I already know he does not like to relive the subject. I don't expect he will be receptive at first, but we'll see.

We've been unknowing following a lot of the MB principles since d-day. Once I found this site it made me feel good that we were doing things right. Now I see we need to fine tune a few things. Getting him to jump on board may pose a bit of a challenge, he likes autopilot especially when things are going well.

I'm looking forward to seeing what he puts on his EN questionnaire. I believe it will be very interesting to see if we do really know each other as well as we think we do now vs how things were pre-A when we had no clue.

Wish me luck that he will want to jump on with me.

lc, I am glad it is starting to make sense to you. Like you, very little of it made sense to me either initially because it really is very complicated. But once I understood it, I was in AWE of how absolutely logical and well reasoned it is. And how very EFFECTIVE!


lc, I would leave this alone if I were you. This may be the equivalent of wound picking to him, which would harm his recovery. POJA does not mean pushing someone into accepting your view, but in not doing anything without each others enthusiastic agreement. It is much better for your marriage and for your children to respect your H's wishes on this and to allow him to heal. If he doesn't want your children to know, then they shouldn't be told.

Secondly, I would strongly suggest the book Fall in Love, Stay in Love. I think it was this book that made the greatest impact on my marriage.

You are on the right track about asking him to take the EN questionaires. Dr. Harley is right when he says that meeting your spouse's most important EN's creates love. I have seen this happen in my own marriage and would not have believed it had I not personally experienced it. Dr. Harley really knows what he is talking about.

And I want to tell you that I am very glad you are jumping into the MB program and glad you are here. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LC,

Luck is not required. What is required is some real thought into how you present this to him. POJA does not mean you get where YOU want to go. It means you both get were you BOTH want to be by mutual agreement.
If he is dead set against it, then you are not going to POJA telling your daughters. Have you discussed why he is deadset against it? My guess is he is humiliated and does not want HIS failure broadcasted. The other side of this is that he may well want you to look good in the eyes of his friends and family.

If one or both of those guesses are right, what is your plan to make telling your children seem like a good thing?

Also I am betting that your H's reluctance to discuss relationship things comes from training and experience. Most men have had this training and experience. What is it? When we hear a woman say "we need to talk", it is always about relationships and it is NEVER good. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Usually, the upshot of such talks is that we (males) are messing up and we (males) need to change. WHich if you think about it strongly suggests that the female really doesn't understand relationships either. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

My point, such discussions should be something else besides painful. Your comments should be about yourself and your plans for further growth and change. At best they should be how HE can help YOU make the changes you want in yourself. But, really they should lead to more closeness, not defensiveness. Positive reinforcement is what you need to seek when talking about relationships.

As for him not wanting to revisit your A, what does that tell you? It implies a lot to me, but do you know WHY he does not want to revisit it? Do you know what aspect of this visit bothers him the most and why? You will not succeed if you try to OVERCOME his reluctance to talk about it. You might however, get him to join you if the discussion is used to learn and advance. My guess is that you still really don't know how much this hurt him, and perhaps he has been unable to articulate this to you.

The POJA is a very powerful tool, but it is because it requires that you BOTH understand deeply where the other is coming from. Hence the brainstorming aspect of the POJA, and the negotiation aspect of it as well.

Hope something I have said will be of use to you.

God Bless,

JL

ML and JL...

I have a question...LC's middle daughter DOES know(I believe that she is 17)...It is her younger and older dd's that are in the dark...Seems like a pretty large burden for the middle DD to carry on her own and I wonder how betrayed the other two will feel should the middle dd decide that she can't keep that to herself...It seems to me that the unknowing dd's would be best served by getting that info from their parents rather than their sibling-It seems like a "family secret" that will eventually come out...I could be wrong and would be interested in both of your thoughts on this...

Mrs. W

MrsW, I think it still goes back to what her H's wishes are. He has a vote in all this and he has voted no.

Gotcha! Thanks!

Mrs. W

Mrs W.

I agree LC's H does have a vote as Mel said and as long as his vote is no, it should remain that way.

HOWEVER, I agree with you Mrs W. the secret that the middle daughter carries is a lot for her and puts a wedge between her and the sisters. This wedge should not be there. If I were running the world, LC's kids would all know given that one knows and the others are old enough to understand.

THe issue is LC's H. My comments to her were to suggest that she discuss this with him and ascertain the reasons for his reluctance and why he "feels" the way he does. With that information perhaps some negotiation is possible.

Further, I would recommend and I hope she reads here, that if the information that the middle daughter is carrying is bothering her, this daughter should sit down with BOTH LC and her H and discuss her feelings. This is NOT to turn her H around so much as allow him to have more information.

It is both LC's and her H's job to protect, help, and train their children, it is not to hurt them. If one is hurting LC and her H should address this.

Just many more thoughts on a very difficult situation as these things always are especially with children involved. I am curious to hear LC's plan for "helping" her daughters avoid infidelity.

Must go, but thanks for the additional knowledge, Mrs. W.

You and the Mister are real assets on this site.

God Bless,

JL

Thank you JL...I agree with you...Adultery just creates landmines everywhere...Your post makes very good sense as usual...I appreciate learning from you and so many others here...

Mrs. W

Melody,

The more I learn about MB's the more I see how effective it is. When I came here I really tried to come in with an open mind. I knew I had a lot of things figure out and am happy to have learned even more. The principles are very logical and some of them came automatically to us unknowingly. My H did an awesome Plan A after I told him about my A. I have to admit it confused the heck out of me. I "thought" and was sure he would yell, scream, show his anger, mostly I was prepared that he would leave me. Oh, was I mistaken, he showed me how much he loved me instead.


I guess I jumped ahead of myself here, yes I agree 100%. What the girls are told is completely up to my H. I know I didn't explain it well at all, but my plan for the POJA is to come up with a plan on what to tell the girls about infidelity. I don't want my girls to end up in the same spot I was in. The Jessie Davis situation also made me think about how important it is to talk to them about being single and not dating a married man. I assume they know it's wrong, but I feel it is something we should talk about. I do want to be prepared if any of them happen to ask if either or us have cheated and what would be OK with my H to tell them.

I know doing the EN questionnaire will be good for us. Our marriage has come a long way from where it was in 2003. I know he is meeting my needs, I just want to be sure I am meeting his. He can be a little hard to read and doesn't like to talk about any of this. The timing for doing the EN questions is good because I recently ordered an updated version of HNHN, so I know he won't feel like this is coming from left field.

Thank you.

JL,


Yes we have discussed why he is against anyone knowing and what you posted is correct. What I would like to come up with is a plan on how to discuss infidelity and it's effect on marriages and people. I also want to be on the same page as to what we should tell the girls in the event any of them ask if either of us have ever cheated.


Yes, I agree. I have learned over the last few years a better way to get him to participate in conversations. I always say, "It's all in the presentation." I feel the best approach is to tell him I want to be sure I am meeting his needs, etc. I also want to tell him that I appreciate how hard he is trying and that he is doing a very good job meeting my needs.


Good questions that I do not have answers for. He would prefer to leave it all in the past (his words).

I do believe I understand how much this hurt him. It was more than I ever imagined.

What you said is very helpful. Thanks

LC

JL (and Mrs W)


I have talked with our DD about everything you stated here and have also had her talk to a trusted professional about the situation. DD and I are very close and she knows she can come to me if anything is bothering her. I am confident she would come to me.

As for helping our girls avoid infidelity, my plan is to educate them and show them the ugliness of it, IOW the reality. I also want for them to see just how slippery the slope is that leads to infidelity and how anyone can end up there. This is where sharing my A would be beneficial, but that will be up to my H. My girls know my FOM and know we were "friends". If my H doesn't agree I will talk to them and just not bring up my A.

I have to run. Thanks again for your thoughts.

LC

LC,

I noticed you said
I notice your H has no role in this. Why? Does your H know your daughter knows? If so how does he respond to this? Your children know the FOM, is there any contact now? Is there possible contact between FOM and your daughters in the future?

My thoughts are that your H should be involved in this discussino about fidelity and infidelity. Why? Well most people think that "if my spouse cheats I am out of here". The reality is different, and actually more painful for both the BS and the WS. The BS who decides not to bail out is faced with trying to save face, not looking like a fool, having deep issues with self-confidence and a sense of weakness. And much more. The WS is faced with facing the BS and watching what they go through will little ability to help them heal. Further, they are faced with loss of trust and sometimes deep resentment.

What are the lessons that you AND your H could teach your daughters? About marriage? About faithfulness? About healing? About forgiveness? About endurance? About deep love and deep pain? And yessss about the slippery slope and needs. ONe of the lessons clearly is that meeting or not meeting needs is NOT an excuse for an A.

Are you seeing where I am suggesting that you and your H talk to your daughters. I suspect he fears they will think less of him. Does the daughter that knows think less of him? If not has she expressed her feelings to him about him?

You know sometimes the kids teach us somethings as well. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

IN any event I look forward to your thoughts and responses.

God Bless,

JL

PS: Is one of the reasons you want to tell your daughters that YOU are proud of your H? Something to consider.

JL,


We are actually a united front in everything regarding our children. This is something that has changed since my A. Until then he was not involved much in their lives, due to going back to school for a career change and working. When our DD first found our copy of "After the Affair" she waiting until he was gone to asked me about it. She initially thought he was the one who cheated, since he was was never home. It was very humilitating to tell her it was actually ME who cheated and with who. Her reply when I told her, "Well that certainly explains why Dad's a lot nicer to us now." That was tough to hear, but true. Yes, he is also aware she said what she did. My H is aware that our DD knows and also talked to her the day she asked me. He talked to her about making mistakes and such. He has also talked to her about being stabbed in the back by a friend when she was having issues with a friend a few months ago.

FOM was a coworker of mine, but was also a neighbor who my H, at one point, considered a friend.



NC is firmly in place and has been for pretty close to 2 years.


Yes, we would do this as a united front.


I'm not sure he would think the girls would think less of him. He just really doesn't like to talk about anything that has to do with the A.

In regard to teaching them about infidelity all I know at this point is we have to do something different than our parents did. My father was a WS as was my H's mother. Neither of our parents ever discussed the topic and although I knew it was wrong, it didn't stop me when push came to shove.

One thing I do know, and it is something our older girls have commented on, is how much our relationship has changed for the better. Our whole house has a different feel to it w/o all the tension. Our oldest does not live at home and even she has noticed the difference.



I'm not sure I really want to tell them. I sometimes wonder if it is a burden for the DD who knows, she claims it isn't. The professional she talked to said teenagers are very self-absorbed and she didn't show any signs of this effecting her to the extend we thought it might. Like I said, my kids were here for the bad years, but they are also here for the good ones we are having now. My oldest use to ask me why I put up with what I did from my H. We thought we were hiding it all from them. We never verbally fought, but the tension was thick. We had no communication skills and often had very little to say to each other. We coexisted in the same house would be a good way to describe our former relationship.

I know sisters talk and I don't have a problem telling any of them. I would much rather they hear it from me than from each other. I also wonder if it's as effective to teach them about infidelity w/o the whole story. I think it's important they learn the true sides of infidelity, not just what we read about. I would like to do more than our parents did and hopefully do my part so they don't venture down this road, because as we all know, it really stinks. Until a person really lives it, it's hard to imagine.

LC

I am not sure where to post this, but I just wanted to say today I am doing a happy dance. I am cautiously optimistic when I say this, but my H took steps toward following MB's.

I'm taking this one very small step at a time. Last night I asked him if he would be willing to fill out the EN questionnaire. For the record, my H is a major avoider when it comes to talking about or dealing with his feelings. This is HUGE for him and I am so happy. This is the first time ever he agreed to filling out anything in regard to our relationship. Even after d-day he refused any type of MC and preferred to just process everything on his own.

I reminded him I was reading an updated copy of HNHN than the one we both read in 2003 and then asked him about the questionnaire. I mentioned I would like him to fill it out so I could be sure I was meeting his needs, also told him he was doing a really great job at meeting mine. He agreed and I gave it to him today along with this website to review the basic concepts. He knows I visit here and as much as I think it would be beneficial for him to participate in the forums, there is no way he would.

I know for many this isn't that big of a deal, but for my H it is. I told him to just let me know when he is finished with it and we can go over them together.

I'm a little nervous as to what will come of this. I "think" I know what his answers will be based on how he acts. I'm hoping his actions are true to his feelings. We have come so far in the last few years, it will be very interesting to see where we are in regard to meeting each others EN. He is doing an awesome job meeting mine, but I have a feeling I am lacking a little, but we'll see.

I was a little reluctant to give it to him now, I wasn't sure if it was poor timing. 4th of July weekend 2003 was when my A turned physical and has been a large trigger, for obvious reasons, since I confessed. I am hopeful when he does the questionnaire he also will see how far we have come and it will help him share anything he may need to. I have no idea if the approaching 4th is bothering him or not. He acts like everything is fine, so I guess I will see.

LC

Hi LC,

First, so glad you decided to 'jump in with both feet'. It would seem that's one reason your H may be open to the growth available through this web site and MB books, CDs etc.

I read your post to LG and have a question. You said you confessed and he said "thanks for not having sex with the OM".

But this post says:


Did you mean 'physical' as in verbally sexual or did you have physical sex or whatever inbetween? My H never met his OW and I am eternally grateful for that. But he was caught (story in sig line) and never would have confessed.

At any rate, it's good to have your willingness to share your FWS insights with others.

Thanks,
Ace

Ace,


I also think he's less threatened because our relationship is in a much better place than it use to be.


This part might be a bit long. I will attempt to keep it as short as possible.

Prior to the 4th of July weekend 2003, FOM and I had shared a few slow dances, we snuck off to go sailing in his boat and he kissed me a few times.

Here is what happened over 4th of July weekend 2003

FOM and his W do not have children, his W was out of town, 2 of our girls were out of town with friends, 3rd DD had all day plans all 3 days of the long weekend, my H is an ER doc, works 12 hour days and was working all weekend. At the time he commuted an hour and always called me when he was on his way home. That was my notice to get my butt home and make it look like I was chilling at home all day. FOM is also a doc and was on call all weekend. The only break we took from each other over the weekend was if he had to go in to the hospital and obviously when my H was home from work.

As the weekend progressed we went from hanging out to ending up in their marital bed. I was topless, he was naked and we were making out. To add insult to injury, the night of the 4th FOM and I wanted to watch the fireworks together, so he invited both my H and I over to sit on his deck and watch the fireworks. My H and FOM chatted all evening like nothing had happened between us all day long. My H thought he and FOM were friends and didn't think anything of being invited over.

After the fireworks were over my H and I went home and my H went to bed because he had to work the next day. DD had gone boating with a friend's family and they had ask if she could stay a little later than usual to watch a movie. I told my H I was going to just sit up and watch a movie until I had to get her, only I didn't stay home I bolted out the door straight to FOM's house. Almost all of our A and physical contact took place at their house in their bed. Certainly not proud moments in my life.

From July to Sept we remained physical as described above. Hands never wandered below the waist. I credit my 8th grade sex ed teacher for part of the reason we did not go any further. She told us there was no way to get pregnant if we always kept our pants on. I remembered those words clear as day. I have a few other theories on why we never crossed the final line. For me it was a huge control issue. Early on I told him it was unlikely we would ever sleep together because I had never had casual sex in my life. It then became sort of a game to me. I could get him all worked up, then announce I better get home. Secondly, I wasn't willing the risk catching something from him. I know my sexual history and knew I wasn't at risk, but had no idea what his history was. A third reason is sex was never all that important to me. I was getting everything I needed from him w/o the sex.

In Sept '03 I began to come out of the fog. I started to catch him in lies, I was on the verge of a nervous breakdown, he then started to talk about what a baby would like if we had one. I wasn't sleeping, I was full of anxiety, I had a proverbial ping pong game going on in my head because there I was going against everything I ever believed, so I ended the A. I told him I just could not continue to do what we were doing.

I had become my own worst enemy. I beat myself up for doing what I did, FOM didn't want "just a friendship", he started to treat me poorly, I was in major withdrawal and fell head first over the deep end. I became obsessive and irrational. I knew I needed to confess, had FOM telling me if I told my H I would be ruining 4 lives and also telling me if I told he would say I was making it all up. This went on for a year. I was trying hard to move on with my life, but I was wigging out. I was lashing out at FOM, acting like a freak, trying to explain my irrational behavior, then repeating the whole thing over and over.

In Sept 04 I started therapy, my therapist said I was mourning the loss of the friendship and I had to get past that before I could do anything else. She was right, I hated the A and everything it represented, but I missed the friend I had for 5 years before we foolishly crossed the line.

When I look at that time frame now I see it was withdrawal. We worked together for 2 years after I ended it and that just prolonged the whole process. I kept trying to go NC, but couldn't do it. I was so addicted to him and even when he was treating me like crap, I still needed contact.

That's as short as I could make it and explain why my H thanked me for not sleeping with FOM. We certainly had ample opportunities, we just never went there.

LC

Thanks for sharing, LC,

Amazing how much the lessons of our youth days impact us in the far future. I remember a youth group message about abstinence before marriage and I vowed that the only man who would ever see me naked would be my husband. Unfortunatly, I neglected to vow that it would only happen AFTER we were married.

When I was a 19 year old college sophomore, H and I 'studied' for his human anatomy class so I 'had' to marry him when he told me God told him to marry me a few days later.

I was technically a virgin a year later on our wedding night....a very naive one at that...but H taught me all I needed to know. He was experienced, but until his EA and our subsequent MB sex history questionnaire, he claimed to "not remember" who or when or where. Although I wish he hadn't told me some of the trigger-fodder stuff from his A, it was enlightening that he 'suddenly remembered' his sexual partners and intimate details 35+ years later.

Y'know, Lifechoice, my willingness to violate my vow and 'study human anatomy' with STBH actually now helps me understand how my WH was able to violate his vow to me 30+ years later. It doesn't excuse it, but it does help me realize how it can happen. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Again, thanks for sharing....and it's great to have your perspective to help us all recover.

Ace

LC,

Do you think his reluctance is due to him being a Doc? Something to think about. Also now that you have given a bit more of the story, I am betting ( a little anyway <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ) that part of why your H doesn't want to go there is that he feels like a fool for the way you and OM treated him.

Having him over to watch fireworks with your OM and you was way beyond cruel and I doubt he has forgotten it. I am sure he feels like you two enjoyed making him the fool, whether or not you two did.

So how to overcome these things? I am sure he gets plenty of "admiration" given his line of work. But, I would suspect he needs things from you and one of them would be appreciation. However, I wonder what that would look like.

I think him doing the need questionaire will help. But what it helps is that it give both of you an avenue to then discuss things from a more dispassionate point of view. You each can look at the answers, discuss them and make plans to address any issues.

Must go.

God Bless,

JL

JL,


I have given this thought and yes I do believe his profession plays into it. I also would agree about feeling like a fool. Sadly, it's even worse than my little bit of the story tells, the fireworks is just the tip of the iceberg to the number of times FOM and I were beyond cruel and disrespectful to my H in similar ways. It happened more often than I care to even think about.

I had another message typed but it was equivalent to a book so I will just add a little. My H thought FOM was his friend as well as mine. Not only were we coworkers we were also neighbors. On many occasions we were all together with FOM and I acting like nothing was going on between us. FOM had gone as far as to visit my H when I wasn't home, to make him believe nothing was going on between us. I also did the same with his W. I'm sure his W felt just as foolish as my H, only FOM and I were the fools, not them.


Appreciation is something we lacked prior to my A. I know my H knows I appreciate him and everything he does for me and our family. I know this because I not only tell him with words, I show him with actions.


I don't think I will be surprised by what he puts down. Based on all the reading I have done around here I think I know where I'm not doing my part. Part of the reason I came here in Jan was because I knew I wasn't doing things the way I should be. Since he isn't very forthcoming with his feelings and I am not a mind reader I thought I would do a little research. I found it very interesting the number of men who post here. I finally feel like I am getting a glimpse into the male mind.

Based on some of my H's actions being similar to what is discussed here, I feel I know a little more about how he actually felt vs what he shared. I have also learned a lot about my irrational behavior. I won't even get started about the alien or we will be here all day. I sabotaged our recovery early after d-day jumping between WS babble and Wife talk. I didn't feel I deserved the love he was offering me and certainly made things difficult for us. It makes me cringe to think about how long I went through withdrawal by being stubborn and continuing to work with and live near FOM. If I only knew then what I know now. My H did his version of Plan A and turned things around.

Right before I found this site I had checked out a copy of HNHN from the library and read it again. I had read it right after I ended my A and had also asked my H to read it (he was not aware of my A at the time). I have since ordered my own, more updated, copy than the one they have at the library. I'm glad we waited until now to fill out the questionnaire though. If we had filled out it out at our worst time I know I would have felt hopeless that our marriage had a chance. I'm also not so sure I would have been willing to meet his needs. I had pretty much given up on our marriage and was buying time to build myself financially to leave him. I had even gone as far as to set up a secret bank account and started stashing money in it.

We have come a long way, but in order for us to get where we are I had to find peace with myself. It took me a while, but I did it. I worked hard and can say, for the first time for as long as I can remember, I actually like myself and am comfortable in my own skin. I do feel we are at the point where we are fine tuning. For the most part, things are going very well, I want to be sure to keep it this way. Or I at least want to be able to recognize problems and fix them when they are still small, not wait until they are so big they consume us.

I know my posts tend to be long. I could type all day and probably still not tell everything.

LC

LC,

Don't worry about being long...you know how to use paragraphs. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

As we talk several images come to mind. One as we mentioned being in the profession he is in, admitting that he was fooled and made a fool of would be hard. It is hard for most people and especially us guys. The second thought is one of trust. He loves you that much is very clear, but I wonder if some of his reluctance is trust based. You did NOT have his back for a long time.

Now here is the part you may not realize. You did tell him about the affair, but you kept if from him during the A and for 15 months after. You told him because it was tearing YOU up, not because you felt he needed to know.

I realize that this seems to be plowing old fields, but to move forward you need to understand as much as possible about how he felt and how he feels now. This is not a question of right or wrong really but rather understanding.

Have you two ever really had a deep talk where he expressed to you his feelings concerning your actions? Have you ever really expressed your feelings then and now, not about OM, but about your H? How does he react?

I think as you absorb more of the MB information and see it at work you will pick up nuances that are not readily apparent. As you have said you are starting to gain some insight as to how us guys think and react to things. That is good. In fact that is better than good, it is very good.

One reason is that you mentioned you have 3 daughters, and they will need insight as they get older, marry, and face issues in their marriage. I would think in the best of worlds, they should tap into your H's thoughts and views of things as well.

Must go.

God Bless,

JL