JL,

You certainly gave me some food for thought.


I thought I should comment on this part. Yes, you are correct about the time frame and also that I told him because it was tearing me up, but there is another side to this. After I ended my A, I read everything I could get my hands on about A's and improving marriages. Of course, I was sneaking reading it as to not clue my H in. My original plan was to "take it to the grave."

As time went on and things improved for us my guilt over my secret grew. In March '04 my H had a conference in Hawaii. He asked me if I wanted to go and for the first time in 15 years we went away alone. Prior to this trip we always took our girls, even on work related ones.

I had decided before we left if we had nothing to talk about except the girls, I was done. To this day, I call it our marriage saving trip. We bonded like we had never bonded before and for the first time I saw hope. I started to do what I could to improve our marriage and he followed my lead. I starte to become conflicted on whether or not I should tell him.

Along with my reading, I found my way to a debate forum for women and posted on a board for people touched by infidelity, regardless of a person's role in the A. I originally went there seeking the perspective of a BS. I learned though the posters the importance of telling my H. If we were going to rebuild a strong marriage it had to be on a strong foundation. I knew it wasn't fair to him to not tell him and still rebuild. I knew our foundation would be weak and I also knew our rebuilding would have been for naught if he found out later.

I did tell him because it was tearing me up, but I also told him so he had a say on whether or not we did indeed rebuild.


We have had many deep talks, but my H likes to avoid if at all possible. He did his best to keep his feelings and emotions in check at all times. This was not something new for him, it's his way. I am a talker (as if you didn't figure that out by the length of my replies). I want to talk about it and then talk about it again. My H, on the other hand, prefers to "process" the information and let it go. At first this caused quite a few problems for us because I thought he needed to talk about everything in order to heal. I pressed him and tried to make him talk. Eventually we worked it out that if he was processing something he had to give me a quick FYI as to what he was doing and I would leave him alone until he was done. It took me a while, but I figured it out that we had to do it HIS way, not the way I thought we needed to do it.

I have expressed all of my feeling prior to, during and after my A to my H. He is fine hearing my feelings. Talking about the A itself use to make him very nervous and he avoided it like the plague. He asked for the information he felt he needed to know (aka all the details) and the rest he wanted to let go.

I have filled out my EN papers, H's just coming off a long string of overnights and I don't expect he will get to it until after the holiday. I was on his computer earlier tonight and did notice the MB website was there. I took it to mean he checked the place out, but will check with him once he's off the night shift.

I'm cautiously optimistic about the 4th of July this year. He seems fine and hasn't brought anything up. I guess I will have to see what the next few days bring. I can usually tell when something is up by his actions because he will start to make subtle comments. He hasn't done any of that this year (so far anyway). Don't get me wrong, I don't expect he has forgotten, I just think he's in a different place now.

LC

LC,

I am sure he won't have forgotten and will never, but part of the healing is that the emotions attached to the memories fade. That is a good thing.

It sounds to me as if you have handled things pretty well and your reasoning is sound. It also sounds to me as if you actually know your H pretty well. I am sure being a Doc he can disassociate pretty well and that is both a good thing and a bad thing.

So given this discussion are we back to the issue of talking to your daughters about affairs? Just as a matter of curiosity have you talked to your daughters about men and their approach to things? If so, do they ever ask your H questions about such things? Do you want them to? I am not asking are you shutting him out. I am asking sometimes it seems reasonable not to ask a person some things.

And back to the title of this thread, besides the EN questionaire,how else are you jumping on the bandwagon?

Must go, have a lot of reading to do tonight.

God Bless,

JL

JL,


Good questions. Yes, the older girls (17 and 20) and I have talked about men, relationships and such. I don't think the 17 y/o would go to him, but I do believe our 20 y/o would. I wouldn't have a problem with them doing so, but I'm not sure he would have answers for them. I know this isn't a humorous discussion, but I am sitting here laughing a bit, imagining what his reaction would be if any of the girls came to him for male advice or to talk to him about men and relationships. He would answer the best he could, which would be interesting by my standards, my H is very analytical and I am more practical. Not saying either is right or wrong, just pointing out our very opposite style. I also know he would be VERY uncomfortable. He wouldn't be visibly uncomfortable, but I know he would come to me and say something like, "OMG you won't believe what DD just asked me!"


We were on board with some of the principles, but our own version. Right after d-day we had a very difficult time talking about sensitive subjects. My H would shut off, "act weird", which always meant something was up, I would get paranoid and start to bug him about it, but since we didn't have any communications skills things were not getting resolved. We adopted what we called our Brutal Honesty policy. We would actually email back and forth to get discussions started. It worked well to break the ice and not have to see the initial reaction of the other person. It also gave him time to prepare to talk, because he really doesn't like to talk about any of this stuff.

Our version was different than Radical Honesty, but sort of the same because it allowed us to be completely honest and not have the other person immediately jump on the defense. Over time, I see we really have adopted the Radical Honesty Policy, by having this icebreaker. I know there are places we can improve on in regard to Radical Honesty

The one I know we really need to work on is spending more together. With my H's schedule it is possible and is easier during the school year. He works 2 weekends a month, therefore we have weekdays when the girls are in school to be alone. I can easily work my schedule around his. Even though I am technically employed, I have a really great job because I work on an as needed basis. I also have the option to decline shifts. I don't have a minimum I need to work to keep my job. By choice, the next time I work is in Sept. The more time I take off the more I wonder if it's healthy for me to go back. I don't need to work, I like to work and I love what I do. What I don't like is that 4 years after the fact this stupid A is still brought up by the gossip train, mostly by people who weren't even there when it happened. I sometimes don't understand why these people have the need to bring it up. Usually I just ignore it whenever I catch wind they are discussing it again, but sometimes it irritates me to the point I would love to tell them they don't even have the facts right and to get over it. That's a whole separate issue I need to discuss with my H and work out for myself.

Sorry, that was a bit of a tangent, back to the subject at hand.

For the past 2 years we had sailing and I thought that was a recreational activity we both enjoyed. I found out my H hated it and only did it because FOM and I went sailing. This is where Radical Honesty would have been very helpful, but he never told me. He went along as if it was all great, but it wasn't. He was really great about going out on the boat any time I wanted to. At the end of last fall anytime we were on the boat I could tell he wasn't enjoying himself and I asked him how he felt about sailing. He told me he hated it. I was glad he finally told me, I thought long and hard and asked him how he felt about selling the boat. He said sailing was my thing and it was 100% up to me.

I was disappointed that he didn't love it, but owned my decision to sell. I miss it a little because it was the first thing we ever did together. We took lessons, bought a small, used boat and started from square 1 together. As an adult, sailing was the first thing I had done for myself. Now we have to just find something else we can do together. These last few weeks when I was really missing it I had to remind myself it isn't all that fun to go sailing with someone who doesn't like it.

The short answer to what other things are we jumping on would be improving Radical Honesty, developing a Policy of Undivided Attention and POJA on some things I'm not sure we are on the same page with.

LC

LC,

I am going to start this off by taking a quote from a previous post of yours. You said
Notice the part I put in bold? There is something very important in this paragraph and I missed it last time I read your post. You don't need to talk about the A anymore. He knows the details to the level he wanted. He knows your feels at the time. What he doesn't know and perhaps you don't either is the damage this affair did to you and your marriage. What you haven't expressed are his feelings and the damage this affair did to him. What you two need to discuss is what you BOTH have learned about one another, marriage, and what is needed for a good and successful marriage.

What you state in this last post is that you have two needs he is not meeting. You have a need for recreation with HIM. You also have a need to spend time with HIM. He is not meeting them, although he tried with the sailing. He was foolish NOT to tell you how he felt because it could have led to resentment, and resentment is:
You two need to discuss this. Notice this really isn't about the affair any longer, what is about is the damage, the learning, the goals, and the plan to work together to make this marriage something YOU BOTH enjoy and cherish.

What you may not understand is that medicine may not just be his job, but also his hobby. To some extent I am that way about my profession.

You two need to talk but not ABOUT the affair, but what you have learned, what you both need, and how to put into play what you both have learned for the future of your marriage. YOu did some amazingly cruel and disrespectful things to your H, hence the gossip mill is still churning. I suspect he is liked and respected, thus the feelings.

They don't matter IF you can some how make amends to your H and let him know that you truly will cover his back if things are bad.

As for talking to your daughters, I suspect it would be good for him and good for them. I did not say comfortable, but good.

Your children are slightly younger than mine, but as they get older the situations they get themselves into will require your H's insights more than you might suspect. If they can trust him and talk with him NOW, it will be easier if they REALLY need him for something...besides money. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Just some thoughts.

God Bless,

JL

I'm heading out the door in a minute but wanted to clarify something that I wasn't very clear about. My mistake.

When I said:

I have expressed all of my feeling prior to, during and after my A to my H. He is fine hearing my feelings. Talking about the A itself use to make him very nervous and he avoided it like the plague. He asked for the information he felt he needed to know (aka all the details) and the rest he wanted to let go.

My H and I don't ever talk about the A now. I was referring to this in the past tense from around d-day and a little after.

I have to run now. I didn't want you to think the A was something we still talk about.

Yes, I agree and this is what I am hoping to accomplish by jumping on with both feet. Which leads me to question, how in the heck I am suppose to get my H to want to jump on with me when he doesn't like to talk about his feelings whatsoever? I'm not referring to feelings about the A, I'm referring to feelings in general.

I'm feeling very discouraged that he will actually want to follow the MB principles and today feel I'm wasting my time doing the research. Things we have agreed on aren't happening. Radical Honesty and POJA were out the window yesterday and this was not the first time. I feel very responsible to fully fix things, but I can't do it myself.

I'm a little frustrated today and have no idea what to do. I know he hates talking about his feelings. His actions and words are telling opposite stories. He says he is willing to do things and doesn't follow through. How do I deal with the mixed messages? Do I point them out when he does them?

I was feeling very optimistic and led to believe by my H that he has fully recovered from my A. I no longer believe it to be so. Yesteday he triggered, tried to hide it from me and tried to lead me to believe everything was fine when his actions were showing me the opposite of what he was telling me. We had an agreement about his triggers which he did not follow through with.

I know he is trying and I know he has changed a lot of his ways, but we still aren't doing everything right. I need to express this w/o sounding like I always want more. Does that make sense to anyone?

I hope it doesn't seem I am mad about the trigger, I understand the trigger, I just wish he would have shared with me instead of trying to hide it.I know one incident doesn't make it all null and void, but it makes me wonder what else he is hiding.

Here is another question for the pros about another dilemma I am having. I feel I can't bring up any of our relationship issues when he is coming off a huge trigger, it seems insensitive. On the other hand we can't keep avoiding doing this stuff. What do I do?

LC

LC,

Well, the first thing you need to know is the "women have feelings and men have egos." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> They are really almost the same but they need to be approached slightly differently in my opinion.

You stated and asked
Well, part of this is simple. You talk about YOUR feelings and how you feel when he doesn't do what he promised. You ask for his help and lay the problem in HIS lap. Ask him for opinions, what he thinks of the situation and how he would handle it if the roles were reversed.

You are NOT asking about his feelings you notice. You are talking about YOUR feelings while asking his opinions and thoughts as well as help solving the problem. Us guys are problem solvers you know. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Further, asking HIS opinion is like going to a Doc for a consult. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Do you see where I am heading with this.

You know him, you know his strengths and weaknesses...USE THEM.

Next you asked and stated
Ok, are you surprised that he triggered? Why? It is clear he is trying to protect YOU and himself. IF he admits he is triggered he is admitting to weakness in his mind. Further, he wants to protect you. Your approach???? HONESTY.

Look him in the eye and say something IS bothering you, and you are not helping yourself or me by avoiding letting me know. IN fact you are hurting me, and making me thing that you don't love me. At the moment you may not, but we cannot get beyond this with you denying there is something wrong. Can you treat patients if they don't tell you what is wrong? Of course you cannot. Well, I want to heal this marriage and I need to know what is wrong. Speak up and lets solve this problem or at least make me aware of it.

How does that sound? Sort of taking command isn't it? but you do it by offering him something from his side of the fence.


But you express it in a positive way. I feel, I know things will improve, but I would like to... What you want is him happy, right. You cannot have too much of him happy can you? Tell him that.


LC, from what you have said, and how he was betrayed by wife and friend, I am sure he has LOTS of triggers. What you need to realize these triggers are about himself and he is going to be reluctant to discuss his weakness because you in fact took advantage of his trusting you before. I am not down on you, but I suspect he worries about seeming vulnerable to you. He worries that if he looks weak you will take advantage of him. Girl, he is defending himself much more than he is trying to keep you out, although it will look the same to you.

If you see him trigger sometimes it is best not to talk but to walk over, put you hand on him and say "are you OK?" If he says "yes" you smile, give him a kiss and say "liar".

If you want under his defenses do it with actions not words. Physical contact is a weakness of men. If you talk to him, just touch his hand and you will see him respond. If he seems down or triggered, hug him and tell him you love him. You don't understand that what I am suggesting is the guy way of doingthings and it gets through.

Have you ever watched to guys that are friends? THey insult each other, they punch each other, they bet, but when one is down the other will say little. He is just there and for most guys the being there is more important that words. You being his W and lover have even more power if you learn how to use it. But remember he is very leary of your power over him because of not just the affair but how you conducted it and with whom.

So consider a slightly different tactic and do some experiments. I think you will find the right combination.


Doing what stuff? Bringing up relationship issues? What relationship issues do you feel you have? What issues do you feel he has. You need to identify the problem before you can make a plan. IF you notice MB is big on plans for a good reason.

Hope something I have said helps.

God Bless,

JL

Just learning. I think your PAST learning, I have been following all your comments you have posted all over here. I really like them. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You seem to really know (and put it in words) what men really think about.

The advice your given here however, has not worked for me, <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> every time we talk, he always turns it around to blame me, one way or another, I think he blames me for his EA, even though he has never come out and said it, and he has admitted that he was wrong, and it was his fault, but yet somehow I think he blames me, if that makes any sense? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Every time I ask him to talk to me he agrees, but, I always feel like I’m forcing him. Or he says “Oh, the chair again” <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I have tried to talk to him soft spoken or even sometimes with an authority voice and always end up with the same response!

+We talk
+He blames me
+I end up having to defend myself
+He promises
=empty promises <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

What do you think that is? I know you don’t know him, but
Being a man, why do you think he’s behaving that way???? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I don’t want to put a damp on LC, it might work for her and her H, it just hasn’t for me. I do wish you luck LC. We can work and help each other here. GOD BLESS .

NYM,

It is the old "the best defense is a good offense" approach. All you have to do is simply look at him and call his bluff. What do I mean?

You said
At the he blames me part. You simply look at him and smile. I mean you look him RIGHT IN THE EYES and say; I simply will not accept responsibility for your poor decisions and lying. You have failed me in the past and you continue to fail me by not keeping your promises. Go blame the wall if that makes you feel better.

Then walk away.

Every time he tries to blame you. Same thing. Don't accept the blame. You don't argue, you don't debate, you simply REFUSE to accept it.

Remember LC is healing her marriage from what she did. You are dealing with a man that really doesn't want to face what HE did. Do you see the difference?

You can even tell him you love him while REFUSING to take the blame for his EA.

Having said this, what are you two talking about if he has accepted that it was his fault and he was wrong? You don't need to keep replowing that ground. Are you talking about what each of you learned? Are you talking about how each of you has changed? Are you talking about how to take what has been learned and make a better marriage?

Don't accept blame for his affair, that was his choice and you were NOT consulted. As for the marriage, you should own your contributions: good and bad. So should he.

Hope this helps.

God Bless,

JL

PS: If you notice I am really telling you and LC the same thing. Talk to him in HIS language when you really want to get the message across and direct (few adjectives, and adverbs) is best.

JL,

Based on what you posted, I did some things right. My H and I had a nice conversation yesterday morning about the events of the 4th.


Good I did this right, too.

No, I was not surprised he triggered, I half expected at some point it might happen. I was surprised he tried to hide it from me. I feel good after reading your suggestions because they are similar to what I had done earlier in the day when we chatted. I have to give him a ton of credit because he stepped way out of his comfort zone when we were talking. He told me exactly what it was that I did that brought the trigger up and he also told me specific details of the visual he had. This is HUGE for him because normally he will say he triggered and follow it with "I don't want to talk about it." IOW, he let me in (or dare I say trusted me just a smidge) for once.

Also, this time when he said he didn't want to tell me he was triggering because he didn't want to ruin the day I reminded him I am the one who ruined it back in 2003.

I see where I made some mistakes trying to have the day pass like it was just any old day of the week. I was sort of subconciously hoping if I did that it would pass uneventfully. Edited to clarify: It's not that I expected him to forget it was the 4th of July, I just wanted to go on about our business like usual and not focus on the date. I hope what I am saying makes sense?

We talked a little about our agreements and why they are important to stick by. Then I let it go.

You are right, I need to figure out exactly where I think the problems are and see where he thinks they are then maybe, just maybe he will make a plan with me. I felt so much better after our conversation yesterday.

I'm going to get a copy of Fall in Love, Stay in Love like Melodylane suggested and once I read it figure out exactly what it is I want to do. Then I will see if he is willing to jump on board.


I'm sure he does. Getting onto the subject of friends, there is one thing I have noticed about him lately (in the last few weeks). He is letting other people back in his life. He owns a collector car and he asked a friend to come over to help him work out a few electrical gremlins. Just tonight asked me if I would mind not going with him to the car show because he would like to ask one of his friends to go. I was happy he wanted to hang out with one of the guys because he never hangs out with anyone anymore. I gladly gave up my seat so he could take someone else.

I like the idea of talking to him in his language.

Thanks again for all of your help. It really helps me to see things from the male perspective.

I'm back to feeling optimistic about getting him on board. It may seem like he did a few minor things yesterday, but like I said, they were huge for him.

LC

Not married yet,

I hope you can find the help you need here and don't worry if your questions will effect others. We are all here to find guidance and answers.

I agree with JL don't let him blame you for what he is doing or has done. In regard to A stuff and relationship stuff, he needs to own his part, accept what he has done AND know it's his own fault. That one sometimes takes a while. I wanted to blame my H for a long time, but then I realized it wasn't his fault, it was my choice. It's a heck of a lot easier to blame someone else than to take a long hard look in the mirror at the person staring back.

Best of luck to you.

LC

LC,

See you know how to do this stuff. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> You really don't need us, but you are more than welcome to stay. I agree it was huge that he talked to you about what exactly triggered him.
So did you thank him? Did you offer to help or perhaps retake <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> the day back? That does work you know. But, mostly did you tell him how close his talking to you made you feel? Things to think about.


Yup it makes sense. You don't want to bring things up that might trigger him, IF he might not be triggered. Here is something to consider. I am not sure it applies to you directly because you do seem willing to talk to him about things. But, in my observations here, the WS that will bring up the A, by asking "how are you doing", "is there something I can do to help" without prompting seem to recover faster. You might want to tailor this and talk to him about if it would help if you "anticipated" things so that the triggers and visuals don't get to him. THe visuals are tough and it seems men being more visually oriented have problems with them, although many women report the same thing. You did well, and so did your H.

Then you said something that I do think we need to discuss.
Remember he will NOT recover as you do. He will not see things as you do. But one thing YOU need to truly understand is that he has already jumped on board with recovery Don't for a second think he has not. His talking to you about the triggers is big. His remaining married to you is big. NO matter what you do, or read PLEASE remember he is really on board even if he does not want to do it as you do.

Here is something else I suspect you will find. As you define what the problems are in the marriage and as you think about them abit, My bet is that you will realize they are not a problem but rather a matter of perspective. Changing the perspective will often make you see a problem is really a "feature" of the marriage rather than the problem.

I am anxious to see if this is true for you. You have done well LC. I think you should be proud and I think your H should be proud. Have you ever told him how proud you are of him for staying the course? Have you ever told him you respect him for staying the course? If you are either, he needs to hear it. Often being proud of someone counts for a lot more than being sorry.

Must go.

God Bless,

JL