Okay gang. I've hidden out and lurked for months ... hoping our recovery would start again and I would be more positive ... but hiding is just not working. The last time I posted on MB I was much more optomistic about my BH and how he was healing. But, now I'm down <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> and don't know where to go. I'm worried that our recovery is in danger of emploding under the pressure.

My BH's verbal garbage is getting worse. It's mean, crule, cutting, crude, vulgar, and abusive .... now in front of our two kids (boys 9 and 16 now). He has been on ADs before, but they effect him sexually, so he refuses to take them now. Basically the problem is no ability to deal with the anger. After 21 months of angry outbursts ... I fear what this is doing to our children. I desparately need help.

Before I get the "raw" posts from those still bleeding from an A ... let me say I own what I have done, and take full responsibility and have done the hard work in discovering why I fell or (as I tell my H) committing emotional/relational/character suicide. So, I'm asking for help. Especially from those who have conquered this deamon of anger and bitterness. Please help.

Thanks,
Lilmom

I suggest going to counseling. While he is hurt, his behavior in front of your boys is deplorable. They will grow up think that is how a wife is treated.

There are anti-D's that don't have SF side effects also.

Would he consider posting here?

Was he like this before the affair?

I am surprised he is still angry. What is his biggest issue? What is he angry about? Have you answered all his questions about the affair? Have you affair proofed the marriage and rebuilt the trust? Is he assured that you have ended all contact with the OM?

Provided that you have answered all of his questions about the affair openly and honestly and have ended all contact with the OM FOR LIFE, I would suggest reading this:

Coping with Infidelity: Part 4
Overcoming Resentment


http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5062_qa.html

One of the reasons I'm not so keen on dredging up the past as a part of therapy is that it brings up memories that carry resentment along with them. If I'm not careful, a single counseling session can open up such a can of worms that the presenting problem gets lost in a flood of new and painful memories. If the goal of therapy is to "resolve" every past issue, that seems to me to be a good way to keep people coming for therapy for the rest of their lives. That's because it's an insurmountable goal. We simply cannot resolve everything that's ever bothered us.

Instead, I tend to focus my attention on the present and the future, because they are what we can all do something about. The past is over and done with. Why waste our effort on the past when the future is upon us. Granted, it's useful to learn lessons from the past, but if we dwell on the past, we take our eyes off the future which can lead to disaster.

I personally believe that therapy should focus most attention, not on the past, but on ways to make the future sensational. And when a spouse comes to me with unresolved feelings of resentment about something their spouse did in the past, I tend to put it on hold and focus on issues that prevent mistakes of the past from recurring. I ask them to trust my judgment, and see what happens to the resentment when the marriage has a chance to become fulfilling. In almost every case, resentment fades, as I predicted. While the painful memories are not entirely forgotten, the most recent marital experiences which are fulfilling and enjoyable, dominate a person's thinking, and resentment becomes weak and infrequent.

Recovery may not be complete

Resentment usually appears when an experience of the present reminds us of a painful experience of the past. For example, if a wife had been abandoned by her husband after a fight on a vacation, left to find her way home alone from Jamaica, the resentment of that experience would pop up whenever her husband walks out the door during an argument. Very often, continuing resentment means that whatever it was that caused the painful experience is still lurking in the background. And it jumps out every once in a while when evidence of it's existence surfaces.

The procedure for recovery that I suggest usually eliminates the root causes of infidelity, and that makes it unlikely that present experiences will remind a spouse of experiences associated with an affair. If the only time you feel resentment about a spouse's past affair is when your needs have not been met, when your spouse is engaged in a Love Buster, or when the Policy of Joint Agreement or Policy of Radical Honesty has not been followed, then it's the completion of recovery that's your problem, not resentment.

Using resentment as a way to control and punish a spouse
I'm convinced that what's kept the resentment of S.R.'s husband alive for so many years is that he has found it to be an effective way to control and punish her whenever she doesn't do what he wants. Whenever they have a fight, he brings it up, and it causes her such guilt that it gives him a decided advantage in winning the argument.

By this time, I don't believe that her affair is the problem that she thinks it is. Instead, it is an issue that her husband is using to get the upper hand in his relationship with her. It probably shows up the most whenever she has been reluctant to have sex with him. It throws her off balance whenever he mentions it, and makes her feel guilty, wanting to make it up to him somehow. He may also bring it up whenever she is winning in a power struggle he is having with her.

What she describes to me in her letter is abuse, pure and simple. There is no excuse for the way her husband keeps bringing up her moment of weakness she experienced years ago. He is disrespectful and abusive.

I suggest that she look him right in the eye and say to him, "Listen Buster, do you love me? Do you want me to love you? Do you want to spend the rest of your life with me? If the answers to any of those questions is 'yes' you sure are going about it the wrong way. You are not doing things that I admire, you're doing things that I find disgusting!"

What if he says, "Fine, then lets just get a divorce and end it all."

To that I would say, "It's up to you. I married you for life, but if you want a divorce, it's your call. If you want to be in a love relationship with me, however, you're going to have to treat me much better than you have been treating me. You must never again bring up my affair, and if you are upset with me, you will have to treat me with respect until we can solve the problem. If you are upset with our sexual relationship, I want us to discuss it as adults and solve it with mutual respect. I refuse to be treated like this, especially by the man I love."

My advice to her husband is to never mention her affair again. It's a good example of one of the enemies of good conversation, dwelling on past mistakes. Whenever you keep bringing up your spouses past mistakes, you not only make your conversations incredibly unpleasant, but it cannot possibly lead to a resolution of a conflict you may be discussing. And as soon as his resentment doesn't pay him any dividends -- no longer helps him get his way -- he will find that it hardly ever occurs to him.

Hanging on to an unpleasant thought because it helps us somehow is what psychologists call "secondary gain." It means that even though the thought is unpleasant, it gets you something you need, so your mind keeps it around for its usefulness. There are many unpleasant thoughts that have this characteristic, and I have helped many people let them go by helping them destroy the usefulness of the thought. Making sure that S.K.'s husband never gets what he wants by bringing up her affair will help him overcome his resentment.

Ok, you own it. Your attitude is about as reality based as any I have seen, "committing emotional/relational/character suicide." That about sums it up as good as anyone can. Since you have lurked, I assume that you have read all the stuff that a WS needs to do to help the BS heal, right?

But he can't get over it.

The problem is not that he can't heal, but that he is abusive to you with the kids. That one has to stop.

Here is my take, and I am a BS. You made a choice to commit adultery. Shame on you. He did not have a voice in that choice, but he does now. He can forgive you and get on with his life or he can continue to beat you up verbally in front of the kids and that is his choice and you do not have a voice in that choice. Shame on him.

He is hurting the kids and that has to stop, period. That one should be non-negotiable. Past that, he may never get over it and you will divorce. It happens. There is no reset button or magic bullet. But you CAN stop the abuse of the kids, which in effect it is. Lawyers, child shrinks and the courts can take care of it for you if he is going to continue to abuse you using the kids as weapons.

Larry

Larry, I am trying to get a feel for the source of his anger. This has gone on way too long, IMO. Something concerns me, though. Just a few short months ago she said:
I don't know if she is still saying this kind of stuff to her H, but if my H blamed his affair on so-called mental illness and wanted me to focus on that instead of the affair, I would be mighty angry because I would know that my H was not taking accountability for his affair and was trying to change the subject. I would also have an issue with a WS who equated my wounds with his when I am the real victim.

In reading her past posts, I see that one of their previous marriage counselors had told the H that he needed to basically shut up and stop asking questions. lilmom stated that she was going to "set boundaries" about his question asking.

Now, maybe all this has since changed since March 2007 and all of his questions were answered openly and honestly [without "boundary setting"] and the issue of mental illness/stress is no longer blamed for the affair. I don't know. But if all that has not changed, I can understand his anger, even at this late date.

It would help alot if he could just come here and explain to us what is keeping him angry. Then maybe we could help him. Would he come here and talk to us, lilmom?

There are always two sides (or more) to every story. And perception is reality. I understand your POV Mel.

What concerns me here is the conduct in front of the kids, that is over the top and not just uncalled for, its gotta stop by whatever means, IMHO.

IMHO, what is going on between lilmom and her BS is another issue that, yes, could be explored at length and it would help if he were here. First step is to get the kids out of the loop, IMHO.

Larry

Will he go to marriage counseling?

You need to give him an appropriate time and place to address his issues -- so that you can set the boundry of not exposing the boys to this verbal abuse.

Plus the counselor will prevent him from abusing you. It will give him an hour or two a week where he is allowed to deal with his issues about your affair -- and where he feels you are a partner in his healing, it may prevent these repressed explosions of anger.

Counseling. Communicating.
Be willing to discuss it, own it, apologize for it. Help him heal.

He won't go to counseling. We tried together at the beginning and he would just yell at me in the counselor's office and then leave saying it was a waste of money and they are all stupid. He woke me up last night and yelled at me for over an hour...I just prayed and cried the whole time...but at least the kids were in bed.

As for the source of his anger, he has identified it as pride. He was humiliated, he is angry that I chose someone else over him, and he doesn't understand how I could have done this. I am at the end of my rope. The other day he threatened to poison my dog with the ADs that he is supposed to be taking. As for "was he this way before" -- he has never been physically abusive to me. He has beaten several people up in a rage before...and he's knocked a whole in the wall, and grabbed me hard.

Boundaries are non-existent with him. He yelled at me one time in the car for 1 hour with our 9 year old in the back seat. I finally crawled in the backseat. He will not respect any boundaries about the boys.

I just need someone who has experienced this level of rage to tell me how they conquered it. Do I have to leave to make it stop?

ML thanks and I know you mean well...I own this, I'm too beat up to go into everything, other than we all have holes. "People who hurt, hurt people". I have tried the confrontation that the article suggested, that he can't do this to me ... but I wasn't ready to leave and it's continued. It's just an empty threat.

Please help.
lilmom

DD 10/05
EA 3 weeks prior

I know that he is very angry. Being a man you can't imagine the anger, pain, frustration, etc that your wife giving herself to someone else mind, body?? and soul can cause. I know it's equally bad for women but a man who has/had self respect before the affair and in my case at least who was a damn good husband and father to be treated the way he was treated during your affair is indescribable in what it does to one's feelings.

I know he is very angry and he wants you to hurt you (maybe not physically but its probably crossed his mind) like he's hurt. He is destroyed on the inside. Has he had sex with you and if so what was his reaction?

HE needs to go to IC for himself if he wants to have a marriage with you and get over these feelings of anger. AND YOU need to identify whatever it is that you can do to help him heal. Ask him to get help for the kids if not for you. Admit that his needing to do this is your fault and that you understand this but you want to have a new marriage with him all the while understanding what you did and taking full responsibility for it.

He won't go to counseling. Body -- no, nothing more than JR High Crap...although the guilt for that is mind blowing. Mind, I guess, but not my heart. Honestly, I just wanted my husband and he wasn't there. But he doesn't really believe me. This is the thing...I need to figure out how a counselor would handle this....because he won't go. Even for the kids. I have admited that it is my fault...it does no good. I stayed with his parents last weekend with the kids and he had a fit...said he couldn't sleep, etc. I need real answers ... how did you get over the anger? BTW, sex is not a problem - it's sparadic, but good.

lilmom,

My dad had anger management problems when I was growing up so I can address that aspect at least. Grabbing your arm "real hard" is still domestic violence. It's still physical abuse. Don't wait until he hits you. No, he won't stop until you are physically residing at different addresses, but you don't have to leave. You can get him kicked out with a PINS petition in some states. It's just temporary, about 10 days, but it's long enough to talk him into getting some anger management counseling (which helped my dad a great deal.)

He already has crossed boundaries with the kids yelling in front of them as long as he does. If you do nothing, it's likely that he could start hitting the kids as well as you.

I know you say he won't go to counseling, but you'd be surprised what a man can be talked into when he's removed from the home in handcuffs and not allowed back until he enters a program. Took my dad only 3 days to figure out what he needed to do. Of course, you don't have a black eye to sport yet so maybe you won't be able to kick him out. If not, you should leave WITH THE KIDS. They are in danger. Even if he never actually hits them, the way he's been acting they are frightened. They probably hide under their beds when he starts his yelling.

Keeping it simple, you screwed up.

That does not give him license to screw up, which is what he is doing with your kids.

Tell him it is what it is, he can get control of himself or face the consequences just exactly as you have had to face your own consequences.

That is my recommendation for whatever it is worth.

Larry

Hi Lilmom,

Glad to see you're back but sorry it's been so difficult for you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" />

I have no advice but I'm praying for you. Keep seeking and hang in there.

Ace

lilmom,

I'm going to give you an answer that may not be very popular on MB. What you did as a WS was wrong and hurt him--this is a fact--but you did come to your senses, return to your M, and work on yourself. Personally, I say congrats for being that smart and brave, and I consider you like I would any other human being who made a mistake in their life (and we all have). You learned from it and grew from it...so it seems to me that you have done the work on your side of the aisle that needs to be done to have a healthier relationship.

Where that leaves you is with a BH who blames his domestic violence abusive behavior on "your A." It is NOT your A that is "causing" him to be angry, lilmom. Every day he can make choices that do not involve rage and abuse. So my advice to you is to begin learning about verbal abuse, mental abuse, and emotional abuse. I know he has not balled up his fist and hit you (yet), but if he has "grabbed you hard" I bet he has shoved you, pushed you, grabbed you, kicked your dog or cat, thrown stuff at you and broken it near you, etc. ... and believe it or not, that is PHYSICAL ABUSE.

So lilmom, it is not you. Were you perfect? Nope, far from it. Did you hurt him? Yes ma'am you sure did. Does your mistake give him permission to continue making choices that harm you? NO IT DOES NOT!!! Your gut is literally SCREAMING that this is wrong and it's hurting you and protect yourself and something is not right here...and your inner voice is RIGHT! So trust your inner voice and start learning.

I know it's hard to admit to yourself that someone you love is abusing you...and that they are knowingly choosing to do it! But if you face reality, that is exactly what is happening. So learn about verbal abuse. Buy "The Verbally Abusive Relationship" by Patricia Evans. Go to her website: Verbal Abuse. Here's another GREAT site that helped me a LOT: Dr. Irene's Site. But mostly, if I were you in your shoes, I would begin what I call a "Safety Plan." This is a plan for you and your kids to get out of the line of fire when he is raging--and help you think ahead what you might need if you need to leave for safety. You can find an example here: Safety Plan 1 or here: Personalized Saftey Plan . This page also has some good stuff to think about: National Coalition Against Domestic Violence .

BTW--just a reminder that is often forgotten. In this instance, it happens to be a male person who is abusive and a female person who is abused...but that is not always the case. Women/wives can be abusive too, but unlike women who have shelters and domestic violence hotlines to help them, or abused brothers don't have those kinds of resources. Soooo...I'm sorry you are being abused, but as a lady you are blessed to have some resources out there to help you!

Email me directly if you need to talk more. My email is in my bio...click on my name and you'll see it!

Your true and faithful friend,



CJ

I'm going to give you an answer that may not be very popular on MB.

marriage builders is not applicable in cases of addiction and or abuse....

safety is always first priority..
with marraige building falling way down the list of priorities...

until you make and do all you can to be safe...

you will never be able to build a healthy, happy marriage...

so to obtain what you desire..

you must first remove yourself and children from the abuse...

it is the only path to getting what you desire most...
though it does not appear to be so...

it is the truth

ARK