SD - I do know and understand that and I don't think I was looking for a 180 from my W, Although I still have this fear that creeps in that after all we were through last year.

As I mentioned last year, She can be very stubborn and I could take that as good and bad. Right now when I think of things they are bad.



We both got real good at hiding things before I moved out last year and I feel that is another level that adds to this.

There were promises on both sides to each other in Sept and I have tried to distance myself from using that the last 2 days so that it was not seeming like I was justifying or forgetting my things.

I wish that I could feel or sense some positive, When the "fog" I was in started lifting yesterday it sustained me but again I am tying my feelings to my W's actions or inactions.

Well another post, Feeling kind of lousy for feeling lousy.

With all things going on at home and wondering about that this day does not get any better, A co worker over 10 yrs was diagnosed with cancer last Feb and he has been on again off again until the comapny I work for chose to terminate his employment and force him to long term disability.

Its hard saying goodbye to someone, Although we were not close we are a small group in a large company, This is the 3rd case of cancer within our extended dept.

Another co worker of almost 20 yrs passed away last summer after battling cancer since oct of 06.

With everything going on it feels so out of body for what is happening personally for me and I was trying to maintain the feeling that came over me yesterday afternoon of calmness and now having a hard time concentrating again.

Remembering how things were less than 3 weeks ago, Before all of this and wishing I could have seen how things were in essence spiraling.

Sorry just had to release some things, Hopefully I will be able to see some positives at home this weekend.

You know what really stinks, I seem to have lost my ability to see positives in things since Oct 06 and feel much more alone than last time.
.


Its like this time with all the fall out I am in protection mode so this is the only place I share my feelings.

I am not sure what to think or feel right now, Its hard to gauge anything.

W and I both worked late last night although I worked later and she had to take S to Cub Scouts, Both D & S spent the night at friends houses and W is working again today.

We spoke by phone last night twice and conversation seemed a little better than it has and any interaction with her since Thurs has been positive on my part, At the end of the conversations I did say ILY and it was reciprocated.

We had a late dinner and talked about our days, She seems engaged when talking about her day but when I talk of mine she seems to blow through quickly.

I asked if she would go with me to the indian reservation for cheaper gas and cigarettes (bad habit) and we could go to dinner, She said she had to take D to get her hair done and I said we could go after, She said w/ the kids and I may have shown a little look of disappointment but said either way with or alone.

Still no affection although I wasn't pressing, actively seeking or...........

I still cant help feeling that she is filling her time with things to avoid more interactions but have not said anything and not sure how slow I should let things move, Part of me wants to see how she will respond if I try to hug or kiss her b/c it was natural less than 2 weeks ago.

Since my bout of self pity I sense respect from her is somewhat gone so I am unsure of myself, I have always been
"in tune" with things but can't seem to see through this.

Why does everything seem to be so complicated?

She did mention that things were going to be hectic a few weeks ago but never imagined that it wouldbe like this,I try to tell myself to step back and breathe.

I am hopeful but guarded. Well very guraded my "spidey sense" tingles.

I think if she was doing anything legally it would be hard fro her to say ILY as freely as it sounded last night.

She seems engaged when talking about her day but when I talk of mine she seems to blow through quickly.

There's your BIG clue, DG. She wants to be conversational, and for you to do that you must encourage her talk. What YOU have to say right now has been difficult for her, because you always want to talk about the relationship.

The OM's take our women because we don't LISTEN to them, and admire them for their efforts and successes, or achievements. Learn to parrot back what she says, or give some interested mmmmmm hmmmm's to keep her feeling like your are LISTENING, and giving back acknowledgement and admirations.

This is a time for unconditional love. Your needs MUST go unmet for a while longer. Work on maintaining a positive frame of mind and put "mopey" to bed or in a closet.

YOu have to have faith, and you have to be patient enough to let this play out. That' just the way it works..

I have been trying and I do feel successful for the most part, No R talks since Thurs night, Other than slipping in ILY after a few phone conversations.

I am not acting clingy since Wed night, Our S called to be picked up from sleepover @ 1:00pm today and said Mom was still at work - When this has come up previously before this she would call and ask.

She came in today and talked for about a 1/2 hr, Smiling, saying how a female co worker made mention that she looks 20 with her hair pulled back, other conversations with people around the building.

We talked about a few minor household things but didn't spend much time on those, All the while we talked I was interested and asked questions when I wanted to know more.

Since Sept. I have wanted and been interested in what she does, She is happy of her accomplishments and should be.

Before last year I had always mentioned we should both leave work at work and thats ok for me but I feel she liked when someone listened so that was something I learned is an emotional need.

Although I do have a fear b/c of her working in the same place as I even made mention to her when things were great that I can't help thinking that they may pass each other and from what I know he works many Sat's so I have that to deal with but with past issues that I displayed I can't go asking anything as far as our recovery about another job, That would come off as controlling.

She made mention that one night in mid Dec. where I made that demand, At that time she got angry saying that since she switched jobs it was an opportunity for advancement and an ego boost to her b/c she seems to enjoy challenges.

I have had some fears from things but some of them are not what they seem so I try to move forward and I post so much here again hoping to hear a calm voice or opinion.

Wish I could talk more of my fears but I do feel she may or may not stop by here,

Should I let the weekend play out, Or do I suggest relooking at Dr. Harley's books I have, Ask about MC.
Any even subtle R/M talk

dg, if she and the OM are able to run into each other at work, recovery is going to be so very, very hard. You know this. How would you know if they are still seeing each other?

As far as R talks go, I'd give it a 10 day - 2 week hiatus, and see if things don't return to the better place you were in a couple of weeks ago?

I really wouldn't that is why I feel this way, I was feeling safe as recently as 2 Sat's ago, Now I feel threatened by this and consumed b/c all I am seeing right now is the way I am being erased from things.

She doesn't seem to want to be around, Acts aloof and unfeeling although not to anyone except me, She is talking but not freely if that makes sense and seems to be in a cocoon when it comes to our M, I am feeling like I did last year before she started the LSA and eventually D proceedings.

We just had to take S to the ER, They were playing with bb guns and I felt like I was treated like a child, I know she is the mother but I was the one here when it happened and maybe it was just stressful when she wasn't here and frustrated.

We were supposed to go to dinner but not sure now.

SD - I did not see your post b/f I mentioned some things last night and initiated some R talk, I did so b/c the time spent in the ER was something that affected all of us and I had to let her know my feelings.

Explained that I have been sensing some things, I mentioned that although I did not expect a 180 from here when I had realized the dynamics that has reared up in the last few weeks.

The big thing for me has been the way I have felt that our children were messengers between us when things haven't been that way.

Trying to understand the pressures she has been under at work with all that has added to her stress although I had to mention that b/f Dec. we juggled alot and I didn't feel this way.

We did go to dinner and I felt somewhat better but still my "spidey sense" was on, Conversation was better but not as free as we had come to know, We came home got ready for bed and watched a little tv.

W mentioned to everyone that we should not wake her she was tired although when I got up @ 8:30am she was up watching tv in the kitchen, In recent past she would watch from the bed unless I was hogging the remote.

When I mentioned I thought she wanted to sleep, Said she couldn't, Worried about work. Her tone has been softer and somewhat more approachable.

I returned to the kitchen to make some coffee and stood near her and gently touched her chin and kissed her.
She did not pull away and it did not feel too strained.

We talked some more about household things and again about work - I asked if she was going to receive some help and she replied probably not b/c another girl had her work to do.

At that point I said well what about you? You have your work and isn't it unfair that you have to assume so much.

Ever since our R talk which only lasted less than 20 mins her voice tone and posture has been softened somewhat.

Last night while we were watching tv, W was moving the bed pillows around to go to sleep and she has a special pillow, She put it over to my side and I playfully took it and she smiled, Although I quickly gave it back as to not take away from the playful moment.

Still can't help but wonder if it really is all about the upcoming week at work or if she may have gotten so frustrated with the last 2 weeks that she may have initiated something although I think that is lessened somewhat.

When we were talking yesterday she mentioned that I think too much? I felt I chose my words very carefully and was careful not to show much weakness on my part but rather a position of care about everything.

dg - Sorry you had to make a trip to the ER. Kids are great, aren't they? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Thankfully, mine are grown up!

Sounds like you had a good evening yesterday, other than the ER trip. I would suggest that what I posted above is still good advice. Let the R talks subside for a while. It takes a long time to get things "normalized" after an affair.

Feelings are raw, and communications are puzzling, at best, so any word misspoken can wreak havoc, which I think you've just seen. And it may not have been a word, but a tone of voice, or an action that was simply misunderstood. FWW's are pretty much on the defensive All the time, and seemingly lay in wait for the BS to "screw up".

Minimize the R talks, normalize the R, continue with the "lifetime" version of Plan A, and help support your W during the stressful times with her new job.

It might just pay off in diamonds!

dg,

You've already been through this. Don't be afraid. Believe in the plan, trust the plan, and be vigilant about following the plan. It was working before this bump in the road, so get this thing back on track. You know how to do it.

SD and Jim
I have that that I hold onto, We have just spent the better part of 2 hours talking and I did not really initiate anything.

I was the person I have been other than last nights talk and have tried to just live for each moment and opportunity for things to show through.

I spent time around this morning engaging in conversation and trying to live our lives, I came down to the pc to try to install a printer for D and wentback upstairs to tell my W.

I saw that she was in thought, I asked if she was letting work get to her dreading this week and she said it wasn't work, Part of me wanted to not ask but felt like she wanted to talk.

She seems to be holding the fear that things will repeat again, I have tried to assure her that what we were doing prior to the last few weeks is what we should focus on.

She says she's trying to get over things but seems to be staying in the rut, I have asked so many things about her being happy, feeling safe, living our life and how we were doing so well, I apologized again for misplacing her trust.

I would not even have brought up and R/M talk if when I asked about her only trying to show her that I care and to be there for her.

I have in no way diminished her thoughts or feelings and tried to focus on all the progress we have made and realizing in such a short time how we may have gotten here but at least we know there is hope b/c we haven't dismissed anything.

Her and D went grocery shopping andb/f she left I made mention of how just existing seems to be affecting us both and she said she has felt that way and agrees that she doesn't wnat to just exist.

I didn't say it but want to say the more we exist, disengage, put up walls or allow certain things in or out that we will keep this dance up.

If she also doesn't want to just exist, She admitted she was happy, felt appreciated, respected and safe up until just a few weeks ago and things got worse b/c of our fears that we had come to know so well.

She had said that I thought too much about last year the last few weeks but I have not been far off on some things and if it's not fair for me to have fears about things then why is it ok for her - That may have sounded selfish although I hope not.

I mean why choose to stay in the pain and uncertainty feelings when we identified the problem and we were doing very well before we both let fear beour guides.

SD, Jim - Anyone! I am losing hope fast, I know I have been through thisonce and I should have it down but I am feeling hopeless.

I am starting to believe that it isn't just the "bait and switch" moreso I am finding myself thinking that I failed myself of allowing her to stay there and that at the first real struggle she would look for her fix.

I am haunted by things that happened last year and feel they are again allowing her to feel justified in her actions.

I don't think she has contacted her attorney, I do have hope that she is thinking long and hard about the at b/c of the emotional toll for our children especially our S.

Maybe its just the triggers from all we went through or maybe there is something to hese feelings - I don't know but I do know it is hard staying focused - The thing that stinks is I do know what I should be doing or not doing and it hurts like heck to watch this up close all over again.

I hate the fear the worst, Had she not come back I was healing slowly but if this goes awry again the healing will feel like an eternity, Plus losing any support other than this site has not helped!

Thanks for letting me vent!

dg...

I am sorry you are feeling so down. I know it sucks, and I know it's debilitating, making ordinary days difficult to get through.

Please hear what I'm about to say. I am a layman...a volunteer...a forum member only. I have zero credentials to help you beyond this point. To do so would be in violation of the trust you have placed in me up to this point.

I don't have the answers to your current state of mind. For that, I am sorry. I have been passing on advice, based on Marriage Builders, and on my own experience. I don't think there's much more I have to offer, because I truly believe you should get with the Harley's and use their professional services.

Your anxiety seems to be way back where it was, months ago, and it may be enabling you to sort of self-destruct. I can't stand by and let that happen without encouraging you to see your personal doctor, and professional counseling to help you through this.

dg... please follow through and get some professional help. I don't want you to think I don't want to help you any more, as that is not the case. I simply feel that I'm not capable, or qualified, to help you any more.

Your heart is in the right place. You simply need some professional direction to get your heart and your mind in synch. I still have faith that all this will work out for you.

Hang tough, dg. You will get through this.

SD - Thanks I know and I appreciate what you say, I was really just venting and I will make the appt. together or alone with the Harley's.

I understand that you are a layman, I guess I was really looking for a MB 2X4, I guess that I just really needed to vent. Many people that were with me last year have either left or refuse to understand that my W and M are important to me.

It is really just very hard sometimes thinking around 3 weeks ago was really good but in the last 2 weeks things have seemed like they were so I turned here, I guess my feelings are a little angry with myself.

Even though my W initially seemed on board with MB, We kind of "winged it" - I should have least moved over to the recovery board or did more than read here b/c I could have shared my feelings b/f I shared some of themwith my W.

I felt I was being honest with her when I mentioned feeling a distance, Maybe it was just me or a trigger that caused me to feel that way.

I still feel there is hope, Although the lack of support except for our kids has made me a little tunnel visioned and also I feel if I interact with some people that they will read me like a book and I really don't want to add to the burden when the cloud lifts.

Hope it explains a little, I do appreciate and understand your concern - Really kind of bouncing some things out there especially when I start to feel overwhelmed.

Thanks Again

dg...the only 2x4 you'll get from me is that I've mentioned the fact that your FWW and the OM still work together, or at least at the same geographical location, and, there is a possibility they can still see each other, if only that.

You know from your time on MB what that does to your chances of survival. Yet, you have hardly mentioned, or addressed this in your posts. Your recovery time could go on for a very long time with continued contact, and frankly, I don't know if you are strong enough to withstand all of that. I'm not even sure if you can ever fully recover your marriage, so long as the two affair partners can even get a glimpse of each other.

You know how strongly Harley feels about this, so I'll not rail you.

What is in your future that addresses this continued contact?

As far as the NC, As I mentioned earlier I should have accepted her offer in the beginning although I didn't want it to seem overbearing when we started b/c of the past and her actions.

I understand the idea and principal, What I had hoped was that she would get her certification and that would open many more doors. I know monetary issues were also imprtant for her as well as the health insurance she provides.

In a lot of ways I guess I got worked up a little but as I stand back and assess - Maybe I alet my thoughts get away too soon although I agree of the possibility could be very high and recovery very hard until then.

Right now I guess I put myself back here and I guess I have nothing to do but stand up to the challenge ashard as it seems from here, I do know that it bothers her about tearing up our family but you know something?

As much as whatever happened or didn't happen I guess I wonder that her job is in some way an A - It may sound funny but I really believe she needs that high she gets from the stress, When we were going good she was able to see that her employer was always asking for more.

Now that we hit a bump she throws herself into her work, Which now she does not let the M have any time or thought.

Ive tried to get time alone with her but either we have our kids or she is working - The only time outside of work she could have had would have been 2 Sundays ago, Him being single would not suffice unless he senses vulnerability again.

The real only contact would come from smoking breaks or cafeteria - Not saying it's impossible but definitely not something for a single guy.

I have been waiting to bring up MC or R/M talks but it hurts a bit when you were so close and feeling safe - Maybe too safe for both of us.

The frustration I have is that I can't share this other than here, I feel that she can stay this way for a very long time if she lets herself, She knows I don't want to give up.

Between the kids feelings and maybe her "walling" up her feelings but still having in the back of her mind that I was there for her when she wanted me that she can justify this situation.

I can't leave this time unless it is the end, But although I sound hopeless I feel deep inside good things can come around - I just want it sooner and that is something that does affect meand not just in the R.

My suggestion would be to try and schedule some fun things to do. Think really hard about what she would like to do (go to a play or musical, see an art exhibit, go to a murder mystery dinner theater), anything to just lighten the mood and get you two to have fun together. No expectations, just fun. Having fun together will draw you back together. Know how to meet her needs.

Thanks for checking in and weighing in, I will keep trying to schedule those things and keeping in mind my thoughts from running away.

Its just the little things that get to me sometimes that keeps me from finding balance, Such as our converation after I got out of the shower. Since S's ER visit the Dr. wants to see him and my W has made mention of how busy she is so I innocently offered with all she has going on at work that I could take him.

The little things that are said cause someone to wonder, She made mention that she didn't want to feel like I woulduse it against her?

I did have to ask what that meant? Its things like those that make me get caught up in womdering - I know though that I should try and not attach my feelings to those but it is hard.

dg...you are micro managing this whole recovery process.

Please stop weighing every word she speaks. For your own sake.

Just relax and let "recovery" unfold without examining the minutia.

You ARE obsessing over every little thing she says and does.

Work on you and quit being the "fussbudget"! (My mom's word for me growing up!)

Relax, and as the Beatles sang "Let it Be".

Measure success by the month, not by the day. The recovery process is SO SLOW you will not recognize progress any other way.

Thanks, too, to Jim for weighing in!

I try to step back and be thankful for things but have gotten caught up in this again.

Like I have said, The hardest part of this was that things were going so well that for have it fall this far this fast has been a blow, I have gone back to the "micro management" that has been detrimental to everything mainly my thought processes.

I want so much to apply everything but have allowed the fear of our past get to me, Worrying about things that have not surfaced or even knowing if they will surface, putting timetables on things, quick fixes.

The one thing I know and it isn't just in relationships but wanting to know how things are going to be, I can step back when things are going well and leave things to come and go but if I lose the comfort zone then I over think or dwell on worst case scenarios.

The human mind is something else I can say that, Along with things that may have affected our thought processes over time even before a R/M's - Close relationships can be a true marathon of emotions. I try to step back and wonder how I would feel if I were my W but the hard part is when I hurt or am fearful I do look for help or comfort.

My W on the other hand blocks or detaches, Now I know detachment can be a useful tool but sometimes I feel she detaches too much, Again with the opinion or if I said it to her a DJ.

I have this morning sent my request for a phone session so hopefully I will get something soon, Hopefully my wife will join us.