Good morning,

It's been almost 6 weeks since my WH's affair was found out, and he chose to leave our home. He has moved in with OW and continues to profess that though life isn't great because he doesn't say he is happy, but that he took the risk to be with her and has made his choice and decision. He does say that he still loves me, or at least he did a week ago. I have stopped asking for anything from him.

Last week after I asked him to respect his children, he brought OW to a lacrosse tournament. One teammate saw WH there and told my son. He was so upset and angry that he called WH and told him he was dead. WH wrote me an email saying that

" I got a message from Aaron on my cell from 9:12 PM. Not very pleasant. I guess they really are set and that's OK. So let me know when no one will be there so I can work on the house. Let Aaron know he has no right to speak to me in that tone. If he has something to say say it with out the threats.

Since he chose to leave our home, has had almost no contact with my younger son, and no contact with my older son. They are truly hurting as he was an everyday dad in their life.

How do i work Plan A if he isn't living at home and he won't see the changes. I have lost 35 1/4 lbs, gone back to AA, working the steps, managing the household expenses as well as the details of running a household. I am raising our children and he just comes and goes as he pleases. The one good thing is that he is giving me all his money for the household. So a legal separation isn't in my best financial interest.

My WH is passive-agressive, living in a dry drunk and going through a mid life crisis.

Last week he wanted to borrow the camera so OW could take pictures of him playing lacrosse. I got to the keep the camrea because our children were in a tournament, but again this week he came to get the camera. It seems the only time he calls me is when he wants something.

He emailed me last week that he realized that he can't make it without the kids in his life, and yet after he got busted for bringing the OW, he doesn't contact the boys.

Earlier I was calling him on the cellphone and leaving a wish for a happy day message. He didnt' call back. Should I continue this or just leave him alone.

I did talk to him yesterday and he asked me what I was doing this weekend - almost the first time he has ever shown a "happy" interest in my life. He told me to have a great weekend and he would be in touch with me.

This new life he is living in is crazy. It's like he has just moved on and is living a brand new life without any thought to his family and responsibilities. And yet he continues because he took the risk to be with her. He says that they can talk about everything and anything. Can that possibly be true? Could my WH have changed just by being in a A and become a well adjusted person who talks about anything and everything to the OW?

Please help me know if there is hope? I believe that G-d is testing me, creating this so I can get healthy and strong. But I need some advice from you. How will I know if things are looking up?

Warmly,
Barbara

BW (me), age 46
WH, age 47
Married since 1-1-84
Three children (D-21, S-17 1/2, S-14)
PA began in May 2006
D-Day May 14, 2007
WH moved in with OW, 5-18-07
Trying to do Plan , but can it work when they aren't at home
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

No camera, no details....no matter how happy he sounds.

Practice:

Ws: How are you and the kids? What are you all doing this weekend?

BS: We are.... ok. We have plans. Bye.

********************

WS: (calls back)..... uhm.... glad u r ok, what plans?

BS: Fun plans.... bye.

*****************

WS: (huffy tone)..... can you be more specific? I am getting irriated. I tried to be nice and you are being difficult.

BS: Nope, not difficult, just practicing t/b like you. Bye.

************************


WS: (doesn't call for a few days)..... Hi, how are you?

BS: Uhm..... ok. Gotta go.... bye.

Ws: wait. I want to talk to you about the kids.

BS: Please send an e-mail (or whatever 3rd party option that has been setup).

WS: No, I need to speak with you.

BS: Is it an emergency?

WS: No.

BS: Then use the designated 3rd party method you agreed to. Bye.

***********************

WS (few more days go by): Hi, can we talk?

BS: Is it an emergency?

WS: Yes.

BS: What is it?

WS: I am sad.

BS: That's not good. What's the emergency?

WS: Well..... I really need to speak you.

BS: Well......that's not possible at this time. Please send an e-mail or letter via our 3rd party. Where's the emergency?

WS: There isn't one. I just miss you.

BS: I miss me too. Gotta go.... bye.


***************************

Are you getting this? It is important the WS admits he misses you. Why? Because it is NOT in the WS' nature to miss you, that's really your H talking and he has to fight with the WS to make those calls. Your refusal to work outside of the designated agreement gives your H the energy needed to fight to get your attention.

When you are ready to speak with him you can but if he withdraws, end the convo immediately. You need to make sure you are NOT meeting the WS' needs. Meet only your H's needs. This is often hard to differentiate so it will take practice.... on your part to recognize your H.

JMHO,
L.

Evening SkinsGal,

I have c&p'd Lostva's (oldtimer) success story below. She too was separated while in Plan A.

Its a very inspiring story and a good read.

----

Ok, so you guys do realize that I tend to get wordy and talk WAYYYYY too much and you STILL want me to do this, right? I'm gonna touch on a lotta stuff here. I'd shied away from posting lately, but I've actually been ASKED my opinion!! You guys don't know what a mind-field you've set off here!!

Now, I'm not particularly wise and wonderful, but I can share with you my experiences and feelings, but that's all. And sometimes those feelings don't follow the norm, so be forewarned.

OK, history first, I guess. One Monday, last spring, Robert walked in after work. He leaned over to kiss me and I said "Hi, Honey, I love you." He said, "Hi. I love you, too, but not like I used to - we need to talk." That was my last kiss. And the night of the "I love you but not IN love with you stuff." Also the last "I love you" in any form.

Within a week, he didn't love me at all, couldn't stand the sight of me, our marriage had been a mistake and he wished he had never married me. Knew our relationship had been a mistake since the beginning (TEN YEARS???) and it never should have happened. Kristin (my daughter from my first marriage) didn't care for him at all and never would. His family couldn't stand us and we had ruined his life. He couldn't count the number of times he had wished I had been in an accident and died so that he could be released from these "pits of h3ll". We had NEVER had a good time, never really cared for each other like we should - he couldn't even remember the fun times. And on and on....All this was news to me! We were the couple that most people envied! We had had a hard couple of years, Mom's cancer, Papa's death, but I had NO idea. I wanted to die.

THEN, he told me about PT. She made him feel WONDERFUL. He finally knew what true love really was and he wanted to spend the rest of his life with her. He adored her 3 year old and she loved him. I had NEVER made him feel this way, we were never meant to be, etc......you know the stuff, right? The knife turned. We've all been there.

So, I came here and lurked. And cried. And couldn't sleep, 30 pounds in 30 days, all the standard stuff. One month later, he left to be with her.

When he left, I didn't know where he was. He didn't contact us, not even Kristin. He spent some time visiting his mom, but eventually, cut away from them as well. She was my greatest strength through this mess. Now, don't get me wrong, she welcomed PT into her home, the whole family did. They were afraid they'd lose Robert if they didn't. His sister called me and told me that Robert was finally happy and I should "move on". (Man, I hate those words, what DO they really mean???) But Mom called me daily once she found out what was going on and tried to spy as much as possible. We've gotten closer than I ever imagined we could be.

PT and Robert set up house. He already had her moved into a new place b/f he left. They opened joint bank accounts, he brought her HERE when I wasn't here to get some of his things, set her up with OUR doctor (she supposedly didn't have one), took her all around OUR town (they lived an hour away) as his girlfriend. Told everyone he ran into that we were through. In VA, you have to be separated for 6 months to get divorced and he said as soon as that time was over, we were done. Taught Leah (PT's daughter) to call him "Daddy". (That hurt worse than ANYTHING, believe it or not.) No financial support whatsoever. Took two vehicles so PT could have one. He called infrequently - when he needed something (until the last month), came by rarely, usually to pick up something or hunt. Didn't give me his address or phone number. Was cold and mean to me - wouldn't talk to Kristin at all hardly (except for once or twice during the whole time.) He was someone I didn't even know.

The first time I posted here, Deb responded first...."You'll be ok, you CAN get through this, there are things you can do." Ok, so there was NO way she could know..I mean, she could NEVER have hurt like I did, loved like I did, been treated as horribly as I was. Ok, I was wrong. She DID know! And she was right - so was everyone else.

I owe my friends here my life. They calmed me down. Showed me I wasn't alone. Cried with me, took deep breaths with me, got me through way too many sleepless nights, laughed with me, and kicked me in the butt and outta feeling sorry for myself when I needed it. I think that was the most important thing of all. And helped me find something to laugh at in the midst of all this mess. I soon discovered I was looking forward to waking every morning.

So, like she said, the rawness eased - the hurt found it's place, continuous sorta, but in it's place. I started paying attention to what people were trying to teach me, got rid of my stubborness and self-righeousness. Ordered books, read, read, read! And started thinking.

You know, Robert couldn't come up with one specific thing about me as a wife that was bad. Even said so himself. But, once I got rid of the old ideas and opened my mind, I COULD!!! I mean, I had worked my butt off to be a good wife, but..... You've heard me say before that he broke the vow of fidelity, but I broke a lot of them too - unknowingly. I wasn't the best PERSON I could be and therefore, not the best wife either.

And I thought about him too. I'd known this man for fifteen years - through good times and what I THOUGHT were bad times (this mess sorta changes your perspective!!) This was not him...to abandon us, leave us to starve. He and Kristin were "joined at the hip". To say now that he never really loved her, just cared for her? Something was definitely not right. This was NOT him....not from my experience, or that of his family and friends (who he had now begun to turn his back on.) Sooo.....

Well, after reading a few books on the nature of affairs, looking realistically at my contributions to the state of our marriage, listening to my betrayer friends on this site, I started to understand. It took away the sting of his words and actions. Didn't erase it - just took the edge off. Through Harley's books and others, I learned about marriages and affairs. From Phil McGraw, I learned about myself. I was insatiable. My basic personality is to DO something. Now, I had a bit of understanding, AND something I could do! I got stronger and stronger. Sure, there were bad days. Thanksgiving and New Years come to mind, as well as one notable weekend w/ two love-busting letters. (BTW, I found out that he was thinking hard about coming home at that point and my letters talked him right out of it! The power of a love buster!! I'm glad - I wasn't where I needed to be yet!) As I grew stronger, I felt freer. I realized that I had the power. He didn't keep me going, I realized it was up to me to do that, and to keep HIM going, too! Even though he didn't know it.

First decision. Do I love my husband? Yup, more than life itself - not the things he's doing now, but the man he truly is inside. Second. Do I want my marriage back? Nope - but I want a better one. Third - Am I ready to work for it? Absolutely!! I asked myself these three questions every single day. Every morning, before I got out of bed, I asked myself these questions. Same answer.

So I loved him. And respected and believed in the man I KNEW was inside. I learned to look PAST this behavior and into the soul of the man that I was convinced was still there. And tried to understand the torture he was going through - even though he didn't THINK he was. I knew now, right? I took the good little signs and they sustained my love. I blew off the bad stuff as part of the addiction. So it wouldn't KILL my love. I believed in him and lit a candle (still do, for us and all my friends) and every time I passed it, I told him I loved him and I believed in him. The coolest part was I was also beginning to believe in ME!! TNT taught me that, the power of words and belief.

Since I couldn't talk to him, I wrote a letter to him once a week and sent it to his mom's. Pop would deliver it to work for me. They were light, funny, flirty, news from home - like he was away from camp and homesick!! Works of art that I worked hard on at first, then seemed to come more easily. Somewhere in each letter, when appropriate, I compared something that I was telling him with a good memory of ours (and then this happened and you know it was just like when we....)and laughed about it. I ended each one with "I love you and I will always believe in you." I never took off my rings. He commented on that once - asked why I was wearing them - really angry sounding. I told him I loved him, I was married to him and I would always be married to him in my heart. He looked annoyed at first, looked like he was gonna yell at me and then got quiet for a minute. Then, with a strange look on his face, he said quietly "Thank you, Lori." I laughed and flirted when I saw him. Once or twice, I teared up, but not often. I saved that for when I was alone. At the end of each of the few visits, I hugged him goodbye and said "I love you." I got nothing except "You DO know I'm getting a divorce and marrying PT - no matter what. And even if I didn't marry her, I'll never come back." I just told him to do what he needed to do, but I'd always love him. I never discussed PT with him, never mentioned her name. I never discussed us or our marriage. If he brought it up, I'd just say I loved him and I wanted what would make him happy. No more. He'd just look at me like I had lost my mind.

At first it was "pretending". But I was working on me too, with the help of my favorite book by Phil McGraw. And I wasn't sitting around waiting. I continued to love him, but I had a daughter to raise and life was happening. I knew I couldn't support us and keep this house. She couldn't stay in private school. And I didn't have much time. I knew my job would be ending, just didn't know when. So I enrolled her in public school, started working on the house to sell it. Went to HS football games, shopping with friends, movies with the kids, whatever. I enjoyed more days than I didn't. And grew stronger. So, soon, I didn't have to pretend. During this time, I forgave him. Don't remember when or how, just all of a sudden, realized that I wasn't angry and didn't hold anything against him. Robert had held marriage sacred, had always been there for me, no matter what. Had NO respect whatsoever for any SOB who would stray and was very verbal about it. For a good, kind and decent man - the most wonderful man I ever knew to turn his back on everything that had ever been important to him - something was wrong. And I couldn't love him and not forgive him for something that took him over so completely. I learned to laugh. I began sleeping, I began to live. But I didn't stop loving him. I think THAT'S moving on.

Around Dec. he started calling a bit more, bogus reasons, favors he needed. Still talking divorce. But finally communicating a bit. I just listened. Never talked about us. See, now I wasn't "playing" him to get him back. I was REALLY his friend! You know? I cared about him, loved him and wanted what was best for him. Like a real friend would. So, it was getting easier most of the time. Of course, I still wanted him back, but, I wasn't obsessing anymore. He called one day at work, wanted the Dr.'s phone number and wound up getting really nasty with me. I patiently listened and let him talk, no matter what he said, and eventually discovered that he had had a seizure, the first in 20 years, the Friday b/f. Once I thought about it and the way I know my husband is, I realized he could've looked the phone number up in the directory. He needed to talk - he was scared. And, for him, scared turns into angry. And I was the target. Why? Because I was the one he could trust. And I was there for him. I found out later, I was right. Without even realizing it, when he got scared, he turned to me.

In January, I got the letter telling me he was about to file. It was time to "get it over with." And 4 days later, he asked to come home. We took a month to make the transition and see each other. He still had not said "I love you." That came during that month. So did our first conversations about us since that very first week. I found out later that he thought he came home b/c he decided he SHOULD. Now, it didn't hurt that PT had been a B**** and I had become someone he enjoyed being around. He told his family he really "liked" me now - I was still Lori, but "more somehow". And I really liked me too - a whole lot more than I did before. I was very proud of myself for what I was doing - for my marriage and for me personally. That shines through, I think. It seems that he had been doing a lot of thinking - for practically the whole time. And then, one day, he heard a song, and it stuck in his head, reminding him of committment and all that stuff. He pushed it away and wrote that letter - fighting the thoughts. Well, on his way over here on Saturday, he heard it again. And he decided. He couldn't "move on" until he had finished this. He was coming over to fix my dryer for me (the FIRST thing he had ever offered to do) and wound up taking me for a ride and asking to come home. No real romance there, guys.

The first few weeks were unsettling. PT pulled hard and so did his emotions. There's so much guilt and other stuff. He said he wanted to move out on day 3. He tested me constantly to see if I was real and if my love was real. And, then, very slowly, he became strong. And we began to fall in love. And now, he tells me he loves me forever, loved me even when he didn't love me (that makes sense to me for some reason) and that he's 100% "in love" with me (I hate THAT phrase, too, but I'll take it from him! ) He also says he admires my courage, respects me for respecting him, even when I had no reason to, and that my believing in him made him strong. I don't take credit for all that, but it sure feels good to hear it.

Ok, now for opinions. Don't blast me, ok? I never felt humiliated or shamed. We made mistakes and bad judgements, but...stuff happens. I had small spurts of anger - at specific THINGS he did and said, but anger has never come easily for me - I believe it's simply another way of showing hurt, so I never really had to deal with the slow burning continuous anger - I just let myself hurt and dealt with it. Tootrusting is right - we can't force them. THEY have to figure it out on their own. All we can do is be there and love them - if we choose to.... and that's what it is - a choice. We're not doormats or any such nonsense. We're strong and independent and coping with a difficult situation, thank you. And this is NOT for wimps! I can't think of anything less doormatty (like that word? ) than standing strong for what you believe in in the face of all the nonsense. But I'd be there for my child and I decided I'd sure as ****** be there for my husband as long as he'd let me - and sometimes, even when he wouldn't. A lot of times it would've been a lot easier to run - For my short time, I chose the other path.

Robert didn't decide "all of a sudden". All those months of Plan A (I just do NOT have a Plan B personality!) were slowly building impressions that were eating away at his subconscious. When the time was right, a trigger (the song) brought them to the surface. I'm not so sure that he really did it to "do the right thing." I think that's the excuse for doing what he wanted to do, know what I mean? I mean, his love just grew too quickly to have just been "doing the right thing." He didn't change his mind quickly. Everything was slowing bringing him back to reality - we just couldn't see it. PT was being a B*****. I was being an angel. The fog was wearing thin. The letter was a last grasp to hang on to the "I'll never go back" thing. Fighting back against those nagging thoughts. I found out later that every time he left here, no matter how awful he was to me, he went home and was MORE awful to PT - or quiet and sullen. Then, he'd go out and do something WONDERFUL for her.....trying to hold on, know what I mean? Remember the little Dutch boy? A tiny hole in a dam is NOT a big thing. But that little bit of water, seeping through, DOES eventually break it down! That's Plan A. That's what happened to Robert, I think and so does his mom. It didn't happen all of a sudden, the damn dam just finally broke against the consistant gentle force of the water!!! (I just LOVE analogies - even corny ones!)

OK, warned you this would be long and I don't even know if I've helped at all. The saddest part is that it WAS longer....I actually pared it down a bit! TNT summed it up better than me.

Ok, so that's the closest I can come to a nutshell version. If I missed a question, let me know. I'll try NOT to be so wordy the next time around.

Good luck to you.

Love and prayers,

Lori

----

Hi Orchid,

He already came for the camera. Tell me how to differentiate between H and WS?

The only time he calls is when he wants something?

He never says he misses me. He says he loves me, but misses our boys.

So basically, short, non information and get off or don't talk at all?

Thanks
Barbara

My H and I have been happily recovered for almost 4 years. There are several similarities in our situation. We are in the same age group as you. We have been married 30 years. Yes, I think there is HOPE in your situation.



My H also EVENTUALLY moved in with the OW, saying that it was something that he "had to try".."had to do"..I think this is the midlife crisis stuff..seeing this as their ONE LAST SHOT at HAPPINESS before the end... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />



GOOD SIGN. My H continued to "have feelings" for me that he could not get rid of as hard as he tried. How can he SKIN? He's been with you FOREVER. You really are the LOVE OF HIS LIFE. He's a FOGGY WS now. You know the REAL TRUTH about this. Do not doubt your importance in your H's life although the WS fogginess is telling him something different.



Definitely continue to call him. Have you read BUGS' thread. Your goal now is to begin engaging him in regular CONVERSATIONS with you and to begin to INVITE him over to the HOUSE.



You see. He's giving you the opportunity to LURE him back in...



Exactly like my H. That's the MLC scenario, wanting to still consider himself to be the RESPONSIBLE H and F. You will be able to use this to your advantage but I eventually had to get a Legal Separation..more on this later.



No. But this tells you something. What are the ENs that she is meeting for him? What made your marriage vulnerable to this A? What PLAN A changes does he need to see that you are making? I see one is the PHYSICAL ATTRACTION. What else was he needing from you?

Hi Mimi,

Thank you for your support. He needs time from me. I was active in so many volunteer stuff because he just wasn't present in the house or opening up to me. Since he is passive-agressive I began to survive by not being around him. The most important thing to him is time and being with him and I wasn't willing to do that.

Since he has left, I have lost 35 1/4 lbs, exercise somewhat regularly, and quit every volunteer work that I do. Even the one that I had worked years and years for.

We are supposed to start getting the house ready to sell. That is going to take monumental amount of time. The kids actually don't want him here so how do I handle that?

He is supposed to start coming over next week, how do I act? What do I keep the conversations too?

Can I tell him I love him and believe in him?

thank you so much for your help,
Barbara

Resilient - thank you for posting your story. Your situation has many similarities to mine - my XH wasn't in an A, it is an R that started while we were separated (and I had an R during that time too)...

XH's R derailed my attempts at reconciliation, but the "being friends" and continuing to love your H ring true with me.

My XH and I spoke last week - I won't thread jack but he's still telling me "not likely" (he wouldn't say "never") regarding wanting to come home someday - but his actions tell me that he *might* come around one day... I'm just further along the learning curve than he is.

I can't do a Plan B because of our business that we share... so I'm doing Plan A with a 180 and living life with my kids.

He's seeing that I'm living - not sitting at home waiting for "something" to happen - but he's at the point now where he's mostly sitting at home (alone) waiting for something to happen - he's at a stalemate in his R (she moved away but they are still in contact)...

I'm cautiously hopeful that his fog will clear eventually and he'll see that what he wants is right in front of him...

I appreciate your story - it gives me some hope <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Skins- hang in there <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> As you've been told - you *will* get through this.

JinGA

Hi JinGA,

That story I posted is not mine. Its "Lostva's" story.

Jo

Oh - oops <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Well thanks for posting it anyway - it was very inspiring!

JinGA

No worries hon. Lostva is a wonderful person and her story really is inspiring.

Yes it sure is. Shugah's story is inspiring too - she chimed in on a thread of mine a while back... but she said she doesn't come here much anymore. Too bad - I got a lot of good info and support from her, our situations had many similarities too.

One thing I've learned here - no matter *what* your situation, somebody here has been there, done that. And there are tons of positive examples for "either" outcome - either a marriage has recovered, or an individual has recovered from the trauma and moved on in very positive ways.

*That* is what makes this place awesome.

JinGA

BUMP

Resilient,

Wow, I printed that story out and have read it continuously. I really believe in what she says. I have a couple of questions though.

Since he is living with OW now, do I keep in contact by email often? Call him on our cell phone plan and leave message like I love you and believe in you? Or be as vague about what's going on as possible?

Barbara