Greetings everyone – have not posted for at least a year.

After 3 years of both seeing counselors together (on our second psychologist), we still have a cold marriage in many ways. Been married 26 years.

Our marriage was in a constant state of arguments with my wife pretty continuously angry with me. No matter how hard I tried to be a better husband, things did not get better but rather worse. Finally, I went in to see Christian psychologist for counseling.

After several months, he asked to see my wife. I finally got her to see him but I thought she was going to have a breakdown. Up half the nite sobbing about why she had to see someone.

Pretty quickly, I learned that she has something close to avoidant personality disorder. At the 2 ½ year point (of starting counseling), she was able to admit that she has suffered all the years since childhood the affects of dysfunctional parents. At the least, I think it was emotional incest and verbal abuse type of growing up.

For a number of years, I feel like a lot of her personal issues have been avoided thru her manipulation of creating arguments and projecting herself on me. A lot of crazy-making and making me feel like I was the cause of many arguments.

But even since admitting her struggles and the effects on our marriage, she has been unwilling or unable to confront it on a personal level. In fact, she has sort of retracted that she really suffers from anything from childhood. She reads a lot but only fictional novels to get her mind off real life stuff. In the last 3 years I have seen her read any sort of personal growth type book only a couple days.

In some ways, our marriage is like the husband and wife in the movie “Ordinary People”. My wife is extremely disciplined and is an excellent homemaker. She is very good with our kids (18 and 20). All of our fiends tell me she seems to be the perfect wife. Very active at church.

However, emotionally, she is not close to me. Quite often says she can not get close to me because of (fill in the blank). I don’t read the same books, we don’t do ministry together, I ask her certain questions, blah blah blah. I try to suggest things we can do together and her response is not positive. I seem to get more of the run-around.

Next month we go to Retrouvaille together which gives me great hope. But I have in my mind the feeling that this next year will be our last together if we fail at Retrouvaille. Right now, a lot of her body language says that she is uncomfortable with me. We can be together and talk about the dog and kids and church but any personal talk gets her very tensed up. I love her and talk to her in loving ways but she says it’s more the opposite. That she cannot get close to me because of me. Very frustrating.

Seems to me that after 3 years of actively seeking improvement that change needs to happen this next year or it just will not happen. I am determined to move on after this next year if I have to even though it breaks my heart . Seems so unnecessary except that you cannot force someone to get close to you.

Thanks for listening, I welcome any thoughts and perspectives.
Welderman

welderman, instead of going to Retrouville, which is not very successful, why not go to a Marriage Builders weekend? I honestly think you will get much more out of that, especically since I happen to know that even Retrouville counselors go to them for help THEMSELVES.

I am surprised that you have not tried the thing that would probabably be the most successful and is right under your nose, MARRIAGE BUILDERS. Marriage counseling, for example, has one of the highest failure rates of ANY kind of counseling: 17% reported success rate.

Have you even tried to use Marriage Builders principles? Have you tried to use his principles to fall in love again? I can tell you that they DO WORK if you use them. My H and I are passionately in love and it came only from using MB principles.

His next weekend is in San Francisco in August, i believe. And I really think it could make a dramatic difference.

Next MB weekend is August the 3rd: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi011_dates.html

MelodyLane
Thanks for your quick response.

Yes-I have been working on Marriagebuilders principles these last 3 years. Trying everything to get my wife to fall in love with me. But she seems to always find reasons not to.

My understanding of some of the personality disorders is an inability for intimacy. I believe her closest friendships reflect this. Some conversations with her closest friends (and their husbands) indicate that she does not really open up her inner self.

I am interested in your comments on retrouvaille. I think it will be good in the sense that it puts us in the company of other couples who are struggling in marriage. One of the deals with my wife is that she is very private. Wants everyone to think that we have the perfect marriagle. Very afraid of what others may "think" if they find out we are not the perfect couple.

I have not considered marriagebuilders but somehow I think our problems are worse that most. With personality disorders, some do not want closeness.

Welderman

welderman, I just went back and refreshed my memory by reading your past thread. I am so sorry to hear you are still dealing with this. I remember now that you have tried Marriage Builders principles.

I do think you would benefit much more from a MB weekend, because I believe MB is more successful than Retrouvaille. MB weekends puts you in the company of other couples who are there for the same reasons as you. I don't think your problems are any worse than the problems we saw at our MB weekend. [some were worse actually]

One of the reasons that MB is so effective is that included in your package are weekly FOLLOWUP lessons that have to be completed. The Harleys will keep you honest in this and make sure you do them. Dr. Harley will also make himself available to you and your W in a private section on this board. If you have any question at all, you just go over there and ask him. I think he could be an enormous help to you.

welderman,

I'm not going to sit here and say which one is better, i have not been to a MB weekend. I'm not sure if Mel has been to a Retrouvaille weekend or not.

My husband and I did go to Retrouvaille and it was very helpful. The main thing they work on there is learning to communicate your feelings in a constructive way.

so, for what it is worth, I highly recommenad Retrouvaille.

one other thing...

the program i went to also included, i believe, 6 followup mtgs.

I think it should be noted that Retrouvaille counselors go to Marriage Builder's weekends for their OWN marriages. The advantage of MB is that it is very comprehensive and gives one the tools to fall in love. It also gives you open access to Dr. Harley, which is an invaluable benefit. Knowing what I know, I would go to a MB weekend if I had to choose.

welderman, something I think you would really benefit from is the access to Dr. Harley. The man is nothing short of genius, IMO, and he could tell you what to do with this situation. And believe me, if he thinks it is hopeless, he will TELL YOU to get a divorce without batting an eyelash. He won't mince words about it. I suspect you are at the point where you desperately need that kind of guidance.

MelodyLane and Finally
Thanks for your responses. Very helpful.

Forgot to mention that three years ago when I started this process of marriage recovery, I showed MARRIAGEBUILDERS to my wife. I pulled up a few articles and asked her to read them. We have the book HNHN and read it together.

Unfortunately, she did not take if seriously at all. Mostly ridiculed and said how impractical it all was. A poor attitude on her part. Somehow, she could not accept that she really needs to take this stuff seriously or we do not stand a chance in our marriage.

Our marriage counseling has helped her some and has forced her to come out of denial somewhat. I indicated to the counselor that this next year is critical to see real progress. Otherwise, that I am determined to move on by myself and eventually divorce.

So the counselor asked both of us to go to Retrouvaille. We will go in about a month. Afterward, I think I will probably be gung ho to sign up for the MB seminar (probably in orlando). Certainly, all of the follow up homework and access to Harley shounds excellent. My wife knows how serious I am about making progress so appears more inclined to be more respectfull about it.

Welderman

Has anyone had experience with the Retrouvaille program? I just checked the site and it looks interesting especially since there are some local Canadian locations.

Everyone

Everyday, I feel like my wife is trying to manipulate our interactions into an argument which makes me look a bad guy. I am actively trying to make her life go as smoothly as possible and accomodate her needs. But no matter how I slice and dice it, I always look bad.

So far, I am being very calm, reasonable, and talking thru each situation to work towards reasonable compromises. I am not bringing up any psyco-babble talk about what I feel and believe she is doing.

At some point, I think I should start calling a spade a spade and let her know how she is treating me. Somehow let her know that I feel that she is trying to manipulate and somehow wanting arguments to stir so that she has a good excuse to be wary of me and keep her wall up.

Any thoughts on how I should proceed?

Welderman

OK, whenever I read your posts, I feel like I'm looking at the same relationship as ours, only my husband is doing what your wife is doing.

What is she doing that makes you think she is trying to manipulate your interactions into an argument? That's exactly how I feel -- what am I supposed to say when I get told "You think I'm a terrible husband" or "You don't care about me at all." If I try to say that's not true, I get words about how I try to prove him wrong.

What I have learned is that the best response is silence. Silence. Second best respond: to tell him how I feel, which is hurt.

We attended Marriage Encounter, which is run by the same organization as Retrouville. Basically, you are taught a way to communicate which is to try to understand only. Understanding builds empathy.

I believe Harley has done some writing for Marriage Encounter. It certainly seems consistent with his principles. If you look at his four guidelines for negotiation, what you are doing is creating a safe environment and then trying to understand each other's point of view. Harley's program goes beyond that to say you should try to find solutions which work well for both.

What I have concluded in my marriage is that the only way that wall is going to come down is if he believes in joint agreement. I am trying to show a willingness to reach agreement without the agreeement being negative on my part.

Harley's support of MB attendees is bottomless. I've probably used his email support more than anyone else. I think that the reason why his program is so good is that he will work with people whose marriages are desparately unhappy as long as at least one spouse wants to work on those marriages. We've been through three marriage counselors and all three have said we should quit. Harley has told me the same thing but he's willing to offer suggestions because, at this point, I'm not ready to call it quits.

Frankly, the thousands and thousands of dollars we spent on marriage counseling were worthless except for Marriage Builders. At least with MB I have an understanding of the why behind the problems. In the end, though, it's not Dr. Harley who can fix our marriage. It's my husband and I who can. I have no desire to look for other marriage counseling because the picture Harley paints of what needs to happen to make a great marriage is so clear.

Cherished

OT sorry..

Chrished, I don't know much about your situation but when you say that 4 therapists, including Dr. Harley have suggested ending your M... and I see you have been here for over 5 years, I truly hope you have received IC to help you understand why you are holding on to what must be a poisonous relationship (I say must be because of the 4 therapists all being of the same mind).
There comes a point in many relationships where the attempt to recover becomes more about a psychological issue than a genuine desire to recover. Frequently that would be something a person would not be able to see without intensive IC.
I hope you have explored these avenues as we only get one shot at this life and you are investing a lot of years in something even the optimistic pros do not see as viable.

I wish you peace and luck.

MEDC

MEDC,

It's not a psychological issue. It's a religious issue.

Dr. Harley even takes marriages like ours and works with the person who wants to save the marriage. To me, part of the benefit of the program is that I'm no longer looking for more marriage counselors or more programs. As for IC, I've had intensive IC. My IC thinks I'm pretty much over the need for IC. There have been weeks when I saw my IC three times per week. I've seen her three times this year.

The bottom line is that, no matter what you do, marriage still takes two -- the two being the husband and the wife, not the cooperative spouse, with the advice of Dr. Harley, coercing the reluctant spouse into creating a good marriage. Dr. Harley is very upfront about this. He even said to me once -- you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. More typically, he's said to me "The ball is in his court."

That's why I would recommend Marriage Builders to welderman. By the time welderman is through it, he's likely not to be searching for yet another program or yet another marriage counselor.

Cherished

Thanks Cherished for your thoughts

My wife manipulates me by describing me in a number of ways which are very inaccurate.

"You do not quit discussing this topic. You talk about it on and on and on."

"You kept yelling at me last nite. That is why I got angry".

"You bring this subject up with the counselor over and over and over".

"You want me to agree with you on everything. You keep talking about what you want until I say yes"

"I have to be very careful about what I say because I do not know how you are going to twist my words around"

"No matter what I do, you are never happy"

"I am never good enough for you"


I am a not perfect husband but I have been working very hard at giving her respect and not pushing her unreasonably. In discussions, I follow the psychologists recommendation and not go beyond about 20 min. Anytime she wants to stop, I will certainly stop on a dime.
I do not yell and don't talk in confrontational manner. I am not sarcastic and work on being very sincere. I do not yell. I try to work out a compromise. Do not demand my way. Whenever I talk, I am very conscious that I must be careful and follow a "Marriagebuilder" type pattern.

My wife says I twist her words around which is not true. When I bring up something she has has said, quite often she simply denies she said it. When I try to discuss some issue, she quite often says that "she is not good enough for me" as if I am somehow unreasonable in what I am trying to discuss.

So much of what she says about me is really more about herself. She has said quite often that I do not open up with other people but I know that is really more about herself. Somehow, she cannot examine herself but instead needs to go on the offense about me to distract from herself.

What is most discouraging is that very few if any discussions carry us in the foward direction. Too often I feel that most discussions do not bear much truth and are more in the manipulation category.

thanks for listening
Welderman

I would suggest calm honesty. I would proceed by slowing down or stopping the next time you feel you are being manipulated. If at that time you find you can't articulate what you feel, you can calmly tell her that you want to stop the conversation for a time so that you can step away long enough to think through what you want to say. And after you have figured it out, come back to her and start with something like, "I began feeling _________ during the conversation we were having earlier." or "I was uncomfortable with _________ during our conversaton earlier. I think it would be helpful to me if approached the conversation (or issue) in ________ way."

Might could give you some better lead ins if you can provide more details.

Thanks graplin for thoughts.



I feel like I have been very patient in slowly discussing what she says and how I feel about it. But no matter what I say she is very adamant about her point. It is like a ping pong match. Anything that is about her gets bounced back to me in some way. The first counselor we saw stated the situation that way.


I am more than happy to discuss things about myself and how I need to improve. But my wife appears to so far not be able to do that.

Welderman

Welderman,

I've heard many of the same things. I tried quoting exact words back to him and got that I twist his words or take them out of context.

Here's an example from last night of a comment that seems to have no other purpose than to provoke. I showed him how I reorganized the closet that contains the vaccuum cleaner and games. He suggested putting the vaccuum cleaner in the corner of the closet more since "you seldom use it, if ever."

Yeah, right. We have four kids. Our table is on carpet. I used it this afternoon. I vaccuum the house every week.

Did I say any of those things? NO. I said, "I'm going to bed."

Unfortuneately, you are more than happy to try to improve the situation when your wife is not. You want to reach agreement. I got from my husband two things on this: "Any agreement we reach would be your way to control me" and "Everything you wanted was a yes. Everything I wanted was a no." The second quote was a justification of why he had an affair.

What I've learned is the utter futility of a discussion with a spouse who says things like that. As Harley said to me, "The ball is in his court." You can learn a lot from the Marriage Builders weekend, but would your wife be willing to go? If she goes, would she be willing to do the lessons?

The approach I am taking at this point is silent removal of myself from unproductive discussions.

Cherished

Welder,

You've been on the giving side of this sitch for quite a while. Do you feel you have done a good plan A, your mind and heart are in sync and you are ready to move forward? If yes, then there is no need to wait.

Call Dr Harley or Steve. You need your personal recovery plan. Looks like your Xws is content being an Xws and NOT your W.

JMHO,
L.