The OP put a stop to the A and thus my WS was 'forced' to have NC. My WS now is in withdrawl and he just want to be left alone and do not want to talk about anything such as restoring our marriage etc. I am worried that since he is not the one who initiate the NC and still very much wanted to carry on the A, would he recover from the 'fog'? I am doing a Plan A right now but it is so super difficult. He refuses to talk or respond to my love at all and had moved to the other room to sleep. What do I do now? Wait? But will he comes out of the fog? If so, do they like 'wake up' one day or is it a gradual thing? Would they be incline to work on the marriage then?

The short answer is "yes". They do come out of the fog. There are people here on this board who have done just that - been rejected by their OP and returned successfully to their M.

Have you read Surviving an Affair? What are you doing to create a safe place for your WS to be right now?

I am trying very hard everyday not to bring up the issue of the A anymore though I very much want to discuss about it. But I know the timing is not right. I will try to cheer him up by doing silly things that I know used to make him smile. I will not ask him where or what he plans to do for the evening if he does not volunteer the information himself since he mentioned before that he feels very suffocated from my 'love and care'. So I also don't tell him that I love him anymore. But I will do little things like hunting down a CD that he has been looking for for a long time and just put it on his table etc. I don't know if doing all these is right or wrong but I don't really know how to carry out a plan A besides sticking around and not responding to his withdrawal symptoms.

I have ordered the book but it hasn't arrived yet...

jcool, I'm one of those whose A ended because the OP ended it, not because I wanted it to end.

My H and I are now very happily recovered but it's been a long and hard and bumpy road.

To be honest, I don't know how people DON'T bring up the A. We talked about it non stop, day and night.

It IS easy to make a person in withdrawal feel "suffocated". I wasn't "there", I tried to be but I wasn't. I didn't want to feel suffocated. I didn't want declarations of love - I wasn't in any position to reciprocate. However, and it's a big however, you have every right to know what his plans are. You are MARRIED to him.

Doing things like the CD are great, but yes, saying you love him is too much right now. Sticking around during the withdrawal is also great. It sucks so badly that BS's have to go through that but, believe me, the WS registers it.

Jcool, I said to my H "I'm here". It wasn't much to go on for him, it just meant "I haven't left." The very fact that he's there is a big thing. I always said I had three options, the OM wasn't an option, being on my own wasn't an option, staying was an option.

Oh, I do feel for you. I can't believe what a foggy WS puts their BS through, but I was there myself once.

Hi jcool,

I was wondering about your situation since you’ve last posted and I was worried about you… I’m glad to see you posting again but I’m sorry about the pain your H has put you through and is still putting you through with his behavior.

How long is your H in withdrawal now? In other words, how long since the last time he had been in any type of contact with the OW? I remember on your previous thread you’ve told that your H and the OW decided together to end the EA but that your H told you that he want to keep her as a “friend” after a few months NC. Therefore, it sound to me if the EA was resumed after you’ve last posted on this board and that this time the OW has put a final stop to any type of contact. Is that correct? Did the OW made it clear to your H that there can’t be any type of contact between them ever again and that therefore your H’s wish to remain “just friends” somewhere in future is totally taboo? I hope so and I hope you have also made this very clear to your H!

I also remember your H and OW worked together in the same office but were seperated to different work stations after the EA was exposed to their supervisor. Is your H still actively on the lookout for another job Jcool? Is there any possibility that they might bump into each other while your H is still working at that company? If this is the case and if your H don’t get another job and move away from that company (as he promised to do), then marital recovery and personal recovery for both of you will be extremely difficult…if not impossible. I’m speaking of personal experience Jcool. I’ve already told you some of my story on the other thread.

Take care and keep posting,
Suzet

When the OP stops the A, it makes recovery harder because the selfish part of the WS is still active.

Does that mean plan A makes you a doormat? Yes. If you stay in plan A longer than you need t/b.

How long should one stay in plan A? Until all their personal changes are made. If the WS is still in the fog or in withdrawal or stuck on the toilet..... time for the BS to come out of plan A and go into plan B.

So what are you personal & M boundaries? Are your finances secure and is your mind / heart in sync? Gotta be.

L.

Jen, you don't know how much tears your post brought to my eyes. Thank you very much. Right now, any assurance is good. At least you tell me that the WS do register that the BS is sticking around because I can't really tell that from him right now. Especially when I keep thinking that he is not the one who wanted to end the A, I keep worrying that ok this time, the OP ended it. What if he meets another willing one before we even tried to work on our M? But I am killing myself with all these negative thoughts beccause I can control nothing at the moment. Thank you also for telling me not to 'suffocate' him too much with my love declaration because I was acting based more on an instinct. But at the back of my mind, I am also worried that if I don't tell him I love him, he may not get his needs met and thus leave. I am now taking one day at a time.

It is very very hard for me not to talk about the A because there is so much I want to know (so that I can know what are the needs that are not met for example) and how he is feeling right now etc. But he does not want to talk about it so I feel that it is better to just leave it. To him, it's probably a painful stage also. But I just hope that I will have enough love left at the end of his withdrawal to work on the M (if he is still around). Right now, I can feel thoughts of resentment creeping up and I have starting to have a tougher and tougher time controlling them.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Dear Suzet,

Thank you so much for remembering me. I am very very touched. Really.

You're right about my situation. Since I last posted, I was very sad to say I actually lifted the NC because I could not live with my WS withdrawal. He was very angry at me at that time because I was the one who asked for the NC and he didn't agree to it. I felt very ashamed of my weakness and thus did not dare to post here anymore.

After I lifted the NC, WS was very happy for a while and even assured me that he will not abuse the 'freedom' and thus will try to lessen the contact to make me feel more secure. He keeps telling me that it is pure friendship and he could not possibly cross the line anymore since the OW stopped it in the first place. He even tendered and accepted a new job elsewhere to show his determination.

But he lied yet again, not only to me but also to the OW. He told her that everything was ok with our M and I even 'blessed' their friendship. So the OW continues to be his friend and he continues to care for her. It was by accident that the truth came out and both of us (OW and I) found that he has been lying to both sides. So the OW now knows his 'real' intentions and thus decided on the NC herself. That was 4 days ago and thus my WS is once again in the most painful stage of withdrawal. His last day of work is 2 weeks later and thus yes, he still sees her everyday but she completely ignored him so he also tried to get out of the office as much as he can. But I know until he no longer sees her, he cannot recover and so am I. So, I am trying very much to hang on now.

((((((((((jcool))))))))))

HUGS. I'm so sorry for your pain jcool... As Jen has already assured you, there IS hope for your situation and your H's behavior at this stage is completely normal. However, as Orchid has pointed out to you, Plan A can turn you into a door mat if carried on for too long and you need to prepare yourself for plan B (finances etc.) just in case your H choose to stay "stucked". According to Dr Harley the general time frame it takes for a person to get out of withdrawal is 3 to 6 months and if I remember correctly, BS's are usually not advised to do plan A for longer than 6 months if the WS don't show any willingness to commit to the BS and work on the M (in other words, if they don't change their wayward mind set and make amends to the BS even if the A has stopped).

According to what you've posted your H is not in true withdrawal yet because he still sees the OW every day (the fact that they don't talk and that she ignores him doesn't count because he still sees her and this makes it impossible for him to start true withdrawal). I think your H's current behavior towards you is not because of withdrawal, but becaue he feels p_ssed (sorry, can't think of a better word!), angry and resentfull that you and the OW has found out about his lies and "true" intentions and that the OW therefore ended the "friendship". Now he is "sulking" about it and unfairly taking his feelings out on you.

Although your H might be in some kind of withdrawal because of the EA that ended and the fact that the OW is withdrawaing any “positive” attention and friendship from him, he will only start true withdrawl as soon as there is absolutely NC with OW. Therefore I'm so glad to hear your H has gotten and accepted a new job elsewhere and will leave from his current job in 2 weeks time so that real NC with OW can start. In the meantime, don't expect any positive changes from your H and towards you... As soon as your H leave that company and takes the new job he might even start to feel and behave worse for a time (because then real withdrawal will cick in) but as soos as your H can get through the most severe withdrawal symptoms and stick to NC and get out of the fog, it will slowly but surely start getting better (hopefully). According to Dr Harley the most severe withdrawal symptoms last for approximately 3 weeks.

In the meantime, since your H find your affections and declarations of love so “suffocated” it might be a good idea to apply/combine the 180 degree strategy with your plan A. HERE is a link to the 180 degree strategy list someone (JinGA) posted a while ago. Remember it’s only guidelines, but it’s similar to what you've already instinctively start doing e.g. stopped saying "I love you" to your H.

Hang in there jcool and keep posting!

Prayers to you...

Jcool,

IMO once he changes jobs and he doesn't see her everyday you probably will start to see a difference. The constant reminders really stink and keeps a person in an unhealthy place, at least they did for me. I also would like to caution you that the first few weeks after he leaves might be rough. Right now just seeing her is giving him a little fix. Once he doesn't see her it will be eqivalent to completely taking away alcohol if he were an alcoholic. Right now he is still having the eqivalence of sips, if you get what I mean.

I also felt very suffocated by my H right after I confessed. I know I hurt his feelings by pushing him away. For me it was actually my issues that where suffocating me, but it was easier, at that time, to blame it on my H.

Plan A works. Even though my A was long over when I confessed I still found myself wanting to blame my H. No matter how hard I tried to be mad at my H and blame him the more calm he became and did his best to meet my needs. At first, it made me irritated, but after a short while I felt myself soften. It is very hard to stay mad at someone who is meeting your needs.

Every time I read about a BS in Plan A I want to reach through my screen and give them a big hug. It has to be so hard and it proves how strong a person is. I made it very difficult for my H, but he kept on going until my mean exterior melted away and the wall I built around myself started to crumble.

I'm rushed and have to run. Complete NC is the key.

LC

I forgot to add something to my previous post jcool:

I really, really hope the OW is sincere in her efforts to end all contact and "friendship" with your H and that she will stick to this decision and not "give in" if your H tries to persuade her to be "friendly" with him again or try to persuade her to the break her NC decision and remain "friends" with him again. I have a feeling that your H might try to do just that and if so I hope the OW will stay "strong" against his attempts if it happens.

I don't say he will do that jcool, but I do think it's a possibility you must keep in mind. He already tried that "strategy" the first time and the possibility remains that he might try to persuade the OW under other false pretenses and lie to both of you again. That's why I was wondering: Have you ever met or spoken with the OW before? Is there a chance that you can talk to her for the purpose of bringing the importance of NC for life and the seriousness of the situation under her attention and therefore how important it is for her to NOT "give in" to attempts from your H should he try to persuade her again to be "friends" with him? Under normal circumstances I would not suggest this because usually an OP don't care at all, but the fact that the OW ended the "friendship" herself as soon as she found out about your H's lies and false intentions to both of you is very posisitve IMO and shows that she is not without any integrity & decency. Therefore I thought it might be a good idea to use this to your advantage to take some precautions. I think she might listen to you and take you seriously enough to help maintain NC and stick to it (especially if your H tries to persuade her again).

Just a suggestion whatever it's worth!

Edited to add:
If you decide to have such a discussion with the OW it must be a “once-off” thing since NC with the OP applies to both BS and WS/FWS.

Thank you all so much for the replies. While I was away from this forum the last time, I felt so lost and lonely. But now that I came back, I really appreciate all of you who took the time and effort to reply to my posts.

Orchid, since the last time I posted, I realised that one of the reasons I am so scared that my H will leave me is because he is the sole bread winner of the house. My health has been very terrible for the past 1 year that I could not work. But now, I managed to find something to bring in some income and so finances wise, I should be ok.

But talking about personal and M boundaries, I didn't get a chance to talk to H about it yet. Not now anyway. I didn't even get a chance to talk about the NC which I wanted to make sure my H knows it is FOR LIFE because the whole thing just happened so fast and he got into withdrawal already. That is why I wanted to know if WS will get out of the fog eventually if they are not the ones who initiate the NC because I want to be able to talk to him about all these issues at some point later and not pretend that this 'episode' is over and let's just live life the way it was before.

Is my heart/mind in sync? No... unfortunately. I am in total pain and now worse, resentment is creeping up. H has been a little better today. I got the first ILY after so many weeks of silence. I am thinking it could be what lifechoice has said, that he is not in total withdrawal yet. He still gets his 'sips' or fix by seeing the OW everyday though she ignored him. So I think he is planning to pacify me first, then when our marriage is ok, he will go back to the OW and tells her that and she should not 'blame' herself or punish themselves anymore by NC. I don't know if I am being paranoid here but these thoughts just keep coming and I find myself starting to hate him for so hurting me so delibrately. Why can't he see that what he did was wrong? Why does he keep doing it?

I've talked to the OW once and texted her a couple of times before. Mostly because she tried to explain that the 'friendship' between them is pure and she wanted to assure me that nothing is going on. She texted me shortly after the recent incident that she will keep the NC promise. So I decided to email her about the importance of NC for life. I strongly believe that my H will try to contact her after a while and thus I can only hope that she will see the situation through my eyes and understand the importance of the NC too...

Jcool, I really feel for you. I think the OW means NC, means she wants it all over, but you're stuck with the other side, your H, who is going through withdrawal.

If he sees her every day, he's still getting his fix. Yes, he's probably waiting it out until the drama dies down. That's what the OM did with me. He waited until his W was pacified and then contacted me again. (Where's the barf icon?).

Jcool, I think your odds are good. You have an OW who wants to end it. Men are notoriously bad at "getting" what they've done. They think that if they're "there" you should be happy and grateful. Then they want you to forget all about it. They have NO idea what returning to the marriage really means.

Try to keep the hate out of it. Seriously, I've watched a great many people on here and the ones who "hate" end up unreconciled. I know it must be nearly impossible but "love" really does win through.

Dear jcool,

I'm glad you’ve talked to the OW and e-mailed her about the importance of NC for life. The fact that she promised to keep NC is vey positive, so it does sound if she really mean NC and wants it t be totally over with your H. That’s very good.

As others have already told you jcool, there are cases on this board (including Jen) where the WS was originallly dumped by the OP and came out of the fog and recovered their M’s, so you have much reason to feel hopeful about you and your H’s future, but he first need to get away from seeing her every day and get through the worst symptoms of withdrawal (I already posted the approximate time frames to you on my previous post).

My online EA was also originally ended by OM himself after he couldn’t accept my boundaries and conditions of keeping the friendship on appropriate level (after my H discovered inappropriate e-mails on D-day). OM ended all contact very abruptly and like your H, I was also in a severe state of withdrawal (and fog) for a while. I didn’t hear from OM for many months after that and during that time I started withdrawal, discovered MB'ers and learned about EA’s (that I was involved in one), the importance of NC etc. This website, articles/books on emotional infidelity, opposite sex friendships etc. helped tremendously to lift my fog and to educate me about the dangers of opposite sex friendships, boundaries etc. All these things helped to keep me strong during the times OM tried to contact me but as I've already told you on the other thread, I had a relapse last year (EA was resumed for 2 days on e-mail) after OM contacted me again. This is why NC is so important because with any contact, a resumption of the A will always be a possibility (that's the nature of the addiction).

I think at the moment your H is in denial and don’t really think he was invovled in an A. Therefore he don’t fully grasp what he did wrong and the pain he caused you and is still causing you. This is all part of the fog and possibly lack of knowledge about emotional infidelity etc. too. I think your H might benefit tremendously from reading the book “NOT Just Friends” by Shirley Glass. At the moment he wil not be open to read these things, but at a later stage (when you H gets out of the fog and starts reconnecting with you) he can start to educate himself on those subjects. Knowledge about those things (to understand the dynamics of how I became involved in emotional infidelity and didn't protect my weaknesses/vulnerabilities by being aware of strong boundaries) was a huge help to me.

Maybe you can also order “NOT Just Friends” in addition to SAA (the book you’ve already ordered) and let it lie around in the house for your H to see (next to your bed or whatever). He might just decide to pick it up one day and start paging through it.

In the meantime, please take care of yourself diet wise, exercise wise etc. Do things that will make you feel better like a new hair-cut, going out with a friend for a cup of coffee or whatever. Most important, keep posting here for support etc.

Prayers to you.

Best not to speak with the OW. Of course she will defend her actions. But they are still WRONG!!! So don't waste your time. She is dirtied by the A and wants you to carry some of that mud.

Spend your time getting you mind and heart in sync. This takes patience because your mind and heart right now are in 2 totally different places. That in itself is hard on a person. So you are under great stress as a result.

The sooner you can get in sync and into plan B the better. Remember these plans are for YOUR benefit. Never will it benefit a WS but it can benefit your real spouse. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

L.

Jcool, my FWH came home under the same kind of circumstances (you can read my story on my link but keep in mind I didn't know anything about MB). But yes, the fog does lift but it takes awhile. I agree with the others about no contact. He nor you can begin to heal until that is in place.

(((JCool)))

Today is a terrible day for me. My WS's phone was spoilt (he smashed it on the floor after realising both sides found out that he was lying) and yesterday night he got called from the service shop that it was beyond repair. He came home sulking and silently angry. I tried to cheer him but to no avail. I thought he was just upset about having to buy a new phone (he is now a little worried about the finances because he is about to change to a new job). But this morning, he continued his angry mood. Soon after I left for work, he called me and asked me if I really really wanted a NC between him and the OW. I asked him what does he think the answer is? He kept quiet. He then asked me is it a NC for life. I asked him why does he start asking all these again. He told me the phone made him think about that fateful day and he started getting angry again. He asked me what have I texted or called the OW about. He told me that my being 'over-sensitive' has broken his pure and simple friendship with the OW. I was totally heart broken. I know that MB talked about how the 'foggy' WS behaves like a complete stranger sometimes but having to deal with it is so so so painful. I wanted to let his words just slip off my shoulders but I can't. They just went straight to my heart and stab stab stab. He said now he felt very sorry for hurting the OW. He can tell everyday when he sees her in the office, she is in pain. He asked if he could write her a sorry card. Then he said he needs to think about whether we are truly compatible since he is so insensitive and I am so super sensitive. It was the same kind of treatment that caused me to lose my ground and lifted the NC the last time. But I know even if I lift the NC this time, it will not work because the OW had promised an NC. Though she has not replied my email yet, she texted me before on that fateful dat. So he keeps saying I make him miserable. I am responsible for breaking the 'pure and simple' friendship. How I must be laughing and happy now that the friendship is broken and my plans have worked. I really feel so sucidial. What kind of life is this? Even if the OW promised NC, I don't think he will ever forgive me. Then how can we worked on the M?

Jcool,

(((((HUGS)))))

I’m so sorry for your pain…

It’s clear that your H tries to manipulate you. Please don’t give in and lift the NC agreement again because it will be the worst mistake you can ever make. Your H wants to get you to argue with him jcool. Don’t allow it. In stead, start applies Orchid’s reverse babble techniques (you will find the link in her signature line). For example, when your H says he is sorry for hurting the OW you can say ”I’m sorry you hurt ME” or if he says you two are incompatible because you’re super sensitive and he’s insensitive you can say “Yes, I agree, your are very insensitive”. You got the idea but please refer to Orchid’s reverse babble thread for full explanation and a lot of other examples.

Please realize he is indeed a complete stranger at this stage jcool…he is not your H he is a WS in very deep fog and denial. He first need to stop seeing her every day at the office. He will only get into true withdrawal as soon as he starts the other job. During the first few weeks of withdrawal things might get worse but hopefully as the fog start to clear, things will get better. But in the meantime prepare on a plan B in case you need to move to that step.

Hang in there jcool… Many BS’s with recovered/recovering M’s have been where you are now. Don’t lose hope. Please go to your medical doctor if the suicidal thoughts continue… NO person on this earth is worth losing your life over…not even your H. Please don’t go there jcool. We here at MB care very much about you…

If it may help, please read the "For Encouragement" link in my signature line... Maybe one of the things on there will give you some strength for the day...

Hugs again and prayers...
Suzet

jc

quit waffling on your answers to the fogged up brain

take deep breaths
stand tall
speak clear and consisely about YOUR beliefs

he says...

asked me if I really really wanted a NC between him and the OW.
I asked him what does he think the answer is?

don't answer his questions with questions ....

say dayum straight I really want no contact...any one who believes in the sanctity of marriage does and would....dear....


He told me that my being 'over-sensitive' has broken his pure and simple friendship with the OW.

this is simple fog-babble....and you are giving it way way too much weight and substance...

in healthy marriages there are not third party "pure and simple friends"....

you are forgeting that...

now lets be clear there is no point in powerstruggling educating or even trying to work on the marriage at this time....

but there is also no point in buying in to his words...

lets be realistic...

there are no garuntees here...
he may really believe his fog babble enough and leave you..

you may really tired of his wallowing in misery...and hopefully move to plan B....

but don't get in to big conversations with him now...

I would encourage you to say little things like....

dear...here's the thing you have become like a thief to our own marriage...stealing energy...thoughts and emotions...removing them from the two of us and spending them on her....

it is not a healthy environment you were creating for our marriage.....

stuff like that...
brainwashing koolaide drinking stuff....in small spurts... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

you can not "work on the marriage" right now you aren't in recovery...

you are in the hard hard stages of withdrawal....

say things like dear the fact that you feel so emotionally hurt by ending this friendship is proof of itself that it was too emotionally charged in you....has nothing to do with me or being sensitive...

then walk away...

no long drawn out talks about this...

the truth is that you are NOT saying he can not have a pure friend like her..... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
what you are and must be saying is that you choose not to be married to a man who has such a friend...totally different....

ark

You can't work on the marriage if he DOES continue contact. Recovery is impossible until all contact ends. He is just trying to manipulate you to keep his girlfriend around. So, don't fall for it.

Can you imagine him throwing that childish fit if you had asked him to stop having lunch with his friend, FRED, at work?