The OP put a stop to the A and thus my WS was 'forced' to have NC. My WS now is in withdrawl and he just want to be left alone and do not want to talk about anything such as restoring our marriage etc. I am worried that since he is not the one who initiate the NC and still very much wanted to carry on the A, would he recover from the 'fog'? I am doing a Plan A right now but it is so super difficult. He refuses to talk or respond to my love at all and had moved to the other room to sleep. What do I do now? Wait? But will he comes out of the fog? If so, do they like 'wake up' one day or is it a gradual thing? Would they be incline to work on the marriage then?

The short answer is "yes". They do come out of the fog. There are people here on this board who have done just that - been rejected by their OP and returned successfully to their M.

Have you read Surviving an Affair? What are you doing to create a safe place for your WS to be right now?

I am trying very hard everyday not to bring up the issue of the A anymore though I very much want to discuss about it. But I know the timing is not right. I will try to cheer him up by doing silly things that I know used to make him smile. I will not ask him where or what he plans to do for the evening if he does not volunteer the information himself since he mentioned before that he feels very suffocated from my 'love and care'. So I also don't tell him that I love him anymore. But I will do little things like hunting down a CD that he has been looking for for a long time and just put it on his table etc. I don't know if doing all these is right or wrong but I don't really know how to carry out a plan A besides sticking around and not responding to his withdrawal symptoms.

I have ordered the book but it hasn't arrived yet...

jcool, I'm one of those whose A ended because the OP ended it, not because I wanted it to end.

My H and I are now very happily recovered but it's been a long and hard and bumpy road.

To be honest, I don't know how people DON'T bring up the A. We talked about it non stop, day and night.

It IS easy to make a person in withdrawal feel "suffocated". I wasn't "there", I tried to be but I wasn't. I didn't want to feel suffocated. I didn't want declarations of love - I wasn't in any position to reciprocate. However, and it's a big however, you have every right to know what his plans are. You are MARRIED to him.

Doing things like the CD are great, but yes, saying you love him is too much right now. Sticking around during the withdrawal is also great. It sucks so badly that BS's have to go through that but, believe me, the WS registers it.

Jcool, I said to my H "I'm here". It wasn't much to go on for him, it just meant "I haven't left." The very fact that he's there is a big thing. I always said I had three options, the OM wasn't an option, being on my own wasn't an option, staying was an option.

Oh, I do feel for you. I can't believe what a foggy WS puts their BS through, but I was there myself once.

Hi jcool,

I was wondering about your situation since you’ve last posted and I was worried about you… I’m glad to see you posting again but I’m sorry about the pain your H has put you through and is still putting you through with his behavior.

How long is your H in withdrawal now? In other words, how long since the last time he had been in any type of contact with the OW? I remember on your previous thread you’ve told that your H and the OW decided together to end the EA but that your H told you that he want to keep her as a “friend” after a few months NC. Therefore, it sound to me if the EA was resumed after you’ve last posted on this board and that this time the OW has put a final stop to any type of contact. Is that correct? Did the OW made it clear to your H that there can’t be any type of contact between them ever again and that therefore your H’s wish to remain “just friends” somewhere in future is totally taboo? I hope so and I hope you have also made this very clear to your H!

I also remember your H and OW worked together in the same office but were seperated to different work stations after the EA was exposed to their supervisor. Is your H still actively on the lookout for another job Jcool? Is there any possibility that they might bump into each other while your H is still working at that company? If this is the case and if your H don’t get another job and move away from that company (as he promised to do), then marital recovery and personal recovery for both of you will be extremely difficult…if not impossible. I’m speaking of personal experience Jcool. I’ve already told you some of my story on the other thread.

Take care and keep posting,
Suzet

When the OP stops the A, it makes recovery harder because the selfish part of the WS is still active.

Does that mean plan A makes you a doormat? Yes. If you stay in plan A longer than you need t/b.

How long should one stay in plan A? Until all their personal changes are made. If the WS is still in the fog or in withdrawal or stuck on the toilet..... time for the BS to come out of plan A and go into plan B.

So what are you personal & M boundaries? Are your finances secure and is your mind / heart in sync? Gotta be.

L.

Jen, you don't know how much tears your post brought to my eyes. Thank you very much. Right now, any assurance is good. At least you tell me that the WS do register that the BS is sticking around because I can't really tell that from him right now. Especially when I keep thinking that he is not the one who wanted to end the A, I keep worrying that ok this time, the OP ended it. What if he meets another willing one before we even tried to work on our M? But I am killing myself with all these negative thoughts beccause I can control nothing at the moment. Thank you also for telling me not to 'suffocate' him too much with my love declaration because I was acting based more on an instinct. But at the back of my mind, I am also worried that if I don't tell him I love him, he may not get his needs met and thus leave. I am now taking one day at a time.

It is very very hard for me not to talk about the A because there is so much I want to know (so that I can know what are the needs that are not met for example) and how he is feeling right now etc. But he does not want to talk about it so I feel that it is better to just leave it. To him, it's probably a painful stage also. But I just hope that I will have enough love left at the end of his withdrawal to work on the M (if he is still around). Right now, I can feel thoughts of resentment creeping up and I have starting to have a tougher and tougher time controlling them.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Dear Suzet,

Thank you so much for remembering me. I am very very touched. Really.

You're right about my situation. Since I last posted, I was very sad to say I actually lifted the NC because I could not live with my WS withdrawal. He was very angry at me at that time because I was the one who asked for the NC and he didn't agree to it. I felt very ashamed of my weakness and thus did not dare to post here anymore.

After I lifted the NC, WS was very happy for a while and even assured me that he will not abuse the 'freedom' and thus will try to lessen the contact to make me feel more secure. He keeps telling me that it is pure friendship and he could not possibly cross the line anymore since the OW stopped it in the first place. He even tendered and accepted a new job elsewhere to show his determination.

But he lied yet again, not only to me but also to the OW. He told her that everything was ok with our M and I even 'blessed' their friendship. So the OW continues to be his friend and he continues to care for her. It was by accident that the truth came out and both of us (OW and I) found that he has been lying to both sides. So the OW now knows his 'real' intentions and thus decided on the NC herself. That was 4 days ago and thus my WS is once again in the most painful stage of withdrawal. His last day of work is 2 weeks later and thus yes, he still sees her everyday but she completely ignored him so he also tried to get out of the office as much as he can. But I know until he no longer sees her, he cannot recover and so am I. So, I am trying very much to hang on now.

((((((((((jcool))))))))))

HUGS. I'm so sorry for your pain jcool... As Jen has already assured you, there IS hope for your situation and your H's behavior at this stage is completely normal. However, as Orchid has pointed out to you, Plan A can turn you into a door mat if carried on for too long and you need to prepare yourself for plan B (finances etc.) just in case your H choose to stay "stucked". According to Dr Harley the general time frame it takes for a person to get out of withdrawal is 3 to 6 months and if I remember correctly, BS's are usually not advised to do plan A for longer than 6 months if the WS don't show any willingness to commit to the BS and work on the M (in other words, if they don't change their wayward mind set and make amends to the BS even if the A has stopped).

According to what you've posted your H is not in true withdrawal yet because he still sees the OW every day (the fact that they don't talk and that she ignores him doesn't count because he still sees her and this makes it impossible for him to start true withdrawal). I think your H's current behavior towards you is not because of withdrawal, but becaue he feels p_ssed (sorry, can't think of a better word!), angry and resentfull that you and the OW has found out about his lies and "true" intentions and that the OW therefore ended the "friendship". Now he is "sulking" about it and unfairly taking his feelings out on you.

Although your H might be in some kind of withdrawal because of the EA that ended and the fact that the OW is withdrawaing any “positive” attention and friendship from him, he will only start true withdrawl as soon as there is absolutely NC with OW. Therefore I'm so glad to hear your H has gotten and accepted a new job elsewhere and will leave from his current job in 2 weeks time so that real NC with OW can start. In the meantime, don't expect any positive changes from your H and towards you... As soon as your H leave that company and takes the new job he might even start to feel and behave worse for a time (because then real withdrawal will cick in) but as soos as your H can get through the most severe withdrawal symptoms and stick to NC and get out of the fog, it will slowly but surely start getting better (hopefully). According to Dr Harley the most severe withdrawal symptoms last for approximately 3 weeks.

In the meantime, since your H find your affections and declarations of love so “suffocated” it might be a good idea to apply/combine the 180 degree strategy with your plan A. HERE is a link to the 180 degree strategy list someone (JinGA) posted a while ago. Remember it’s only guidelines, but it’s similar to what you've already instinctively start doing e.g. stopped saying "I love you" to your H.

Hang in there jcool and keep posting!

Prayers to you...

Jcool,

IMO once he changes jobs and he doesn't see her everyday you probably will start to see a difference. The constant reminders really stink and keeps a person in an unhealthy place, at least they did for me. I also would like to caution you that the first few weeks after he leaves might be rough. Right now just seeing her is giving him a little fix. Once he doesn't see her it will be eqivalent to completely taking away alcohol if he were an alcoholic. Right now he is still having the eqivalence of sips, if you get what I mean.

I also felt very suffocated by my H right after I confessed. I know I hurt his feelings by pushing him away. For me it was actually my issues that where suffocating me, but it was easier, at that time, to blame it on my H.

Plan A works. Even though my A was long over when I confessed I still found myself wanting to blame my H. No matter how hard I tried to be mad at my H and blame him the more calm he became and did his best to meet my needs. At first, it made me irritated, but after a short while I felt myself soften. It is very hard to stay mad at someone who is meeting your needs.

Every time I read about a BS in Plan A I want to reach through my screen and give them a big hug. It has to be so hard and it proves how strong a person is. I made it very difficult for my H, but he kept on going until my mean exterior melted away and the wall I built around myself started to crumble.

I'm rushed and have to run. Complete NC is the key.

LC

I forgot to add something to my previous post jcool:

I really, really hope the OW is sincere in her efforts to end all contact and "friendship" with your H and that she will stick to this decision and not "give in" if your H tries to persuade her to be "friendly" with him again or try to persuade her to the break her NC decision and remain "friends" with him again. I have a feeling that your H might try to do just that and if so I hope the OW will stay "strong" against his attempts if it happens.

I don't say he will do that jcool, but I do think it's a possibility you must keep in mind. He already tried that "strategy" the first time and the possibility remains that he might try to persuade the OW under other false pretenses and lie to both of you again. That's why I was wondering: Have you ever met or spoken with the OW before? Is there a chance that you can talk to her for the purpose of bringing the importance of NC for life and the seriousness of the situation under her attention and therefore how important it is for her to NOT "give in" to attempts from your H should he try to persuade her again to be "friends" with him? Under normal circumstances I would not suggest this because usually an OP don't care at all, but the fact that the OW ended the "friendship" herself as soon as she found out about your H's lies and false intentions to both of you is very posisitve IMO and shows that she is not without any integrity & decency. Therefore I thought it might be a good idea to use this to your advantage to take some precautions. I think she might listen to you and take you seriously enough to help maintain NC and stick to it (especially if your H tries to persuade her again).

Just a suggestion whatever it's worth!

Edited to add:
If you decide to have such a discussion with the OW it must be a “once-off” thing since NC with the OP applies to both BS and WS/FWS.

Thank you all so much for the replies. While I was away from this forum the last time, I felt so lost and lonely. But now that I came back, I really appreciate all of you who took the time and effort to reply to my posts.

Orchid, since the last time I posted, I realised that one of the reasons I am so scared that my H will leave me is because he is the sole bread winner of the house. My health has been very terrible for the past 1 year that I could not work. But now, I managed to find something to bring in some income and so finances wise, I should be ok.

But talking about personal and M boundaries, I didn't get a chance to talk to H about it yet. Not now anyway. I didn't even get a chance to talk about the NC which I wanted to make sure my H knows it is FOR LIFE because the whole thing just happened so fast and he got into withdrawal already. That is why I wanted to know if WS will get out of the fog eventually if they are not the ones who initiate the NC because I want to be able to talk to him about all these issues at some point later and not pretend that this 'episode' is over and let's just live life the way it was before.

Is my heart/mind in sync? No... unfortunately. I am in total pain and now worse, resentment is creeping up. H has been a little better today. I got the first ILY after so many weeks of silence. I am thinking it could be what lifechoice has said, that he is not in total withdrawal yet. He still gets his 'sips' or fix by seeing the OW everyday though she ignored him. So I think he is planning to pacify me first, then when our marriage is ok, he will go back to the OW and tells her that and she should not 'blame' herself or punish themselves anymore by NC. I don't know if I am being paranoid here but these thoughts just keep coming and I find myself starting to hate him for so hurting me so delibrately. Why can't he see that what he did was wrong? Why does he keep doing it?

I've talked to the OW once and texted her a couple of times before. Mostly because she tried to explain that the 'friendship' between them is pure and she wanted to assure me that nothing is going on. She texted me shortly after the recent incident that she will keep the NC promise. So I decided to email her about the importance of NC for life. I strongly believe that my H will try to contact her after a while and thus I can only hope that she will see the situation through my eyes and understand the importance of the NC too...

Jcool, I really feel for you. I think the OW means NC, means she wants it all over, but you're stuck with the other side, your H, who is going through withdrawal.

If he sees her every day, he's still getting his fix. Yes, he's probably waiting it out until the drama dies down. That's what the OM did with me. He waited until his W was pacified and then contacted me again. (Where's the barf icon?).

Jcool, I think your odds are good. You have an OW who wants to end it. Men are notoriously bad at "getting" what they've done. They think that if they're "there" you should be happy and grateful. Then they want you to forget all about it. They have NO idea what returning to the marriage really means.

Try to keep the hate out of it. Seriously, I've watched a great many people on here and the ones who "hate" end up unreconciled. I know it must be nearly impossible but "love" really does win through.

Dear jcool,

I'm glad you’ve talked to the OW and e-mailed her about the importance of NC for life. The fact that she promised to keep NC is vey positive, so it does sound if she really mean NC and wants it t be totally over with your H. That’s very good.

As others have already told you jcool, there are cases on this board (including Jen) where the WS was originallly dumped by the OP and came out of the fog and recovered their M’s, so you have much reason to feel hopeful about you and your H’s future, but he first need to get away from seeing her every day and get through the worst symptoms of withdrawal (I already posted the approximate time frames to you on my previous post).

My online EA was also originally ended by OM himself after he couldn’t accept my boundaries and conditions of keeping the friendship on appropriate level (after my H discovered inappropriate e-mails on D-day). OM ended all contact very abruptly and like your H, I was also in a severe state of withdrawal (and fog) for a while. I didn’t hear from OM for many months after that and during that time I started withdrawal, discovered MB'ers and learned about EA’s (that I was involved in one), the importance of NC etc. This website, articles/books on emotional infidelity, opposite sex friendships etc. helped tremendously to lift my fog and to educate me about the dangers of opposite sex friendships, boundaries etc. All these things helped to keep me strong during the times OM tried to contact me but as I've already told you on the other thread, I had a relapse last year (EA was resumed for 2 days on e-mail) after OM contacted me again. This is why NC is so important because with any contact, a resumption of the A will always be a possibility (that's the nature of the addiction).

I think at the moment your H is in denial and don’t really think he was invovled in an A. Therefore he don’t fully grasp what he did wrong and the pain he caused you and is still causing you. This is all part of the fog and possibly lack of knowledge about emotional infidelity etc. too. I think your H might benefit tremendously from reading the book “NOT Just Friends” by Shirley Glass. At the moment he wil not be open to read these things, but at a later stage (when you H gets out of the fog and starts reconnecting with you) he can start to educate himself on those subjects. Knowledge about those things (to understand the dynamics of how I became involved in emotional infidelity and didn't protect my weaknesses/vulnerabilities by being aware of strong boundaries) was a huge help to me.

Maybe you can also order “NOT Just Friends” in addition to SAA (the book you’ve already ordered) and let it lie around in the house for your H to see (next to your bed or whatever). He might just decide to pick it up one day and start paging through it.

In the meantime, please take care of yourself diet wise, exercise wise etc. Do things that will make you feel better like a new hair-cut, going out with a friend for a cup of coffee or whatever. Most important, keep posting here for support etc.

Prayers to you.

Best not to speak with the OW. Of course she will defend her actions. But they are still WRONG!!! So don't waste your time. She is dirtied by the A and wants you to carry some of that mud.

Spend your time getting you mind and heart in sync. This takes patience because your mind and heart right now are in 2 totally different places. That in itself is hard on a person. So you are under great stress as a result.

The sooner you can get in sync and into plan B the better. Remember these plans are for YOUR benefit. Never will it benefit a WS but it can benefit your real spouse. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

L.

Jcool, my FWH came home under the same kind of circumstances (you can read my story on my link but keep in mind I didn't know anything about MB). But yes, the fog does lift but it takes awhile. I agree with the others about no contact. He nor you can begin to heal until that is in place.

(((JCool)))

Today is a terrible day for me. My WS's phone was spoilt (he smashed it on the floor after realising both sides found out that he was lying) and yesterday night he got called from the service shop that it was beyond repair. He came home sulking and silently angry. I tried to cheer him but to no avail. I thought he was just upset about having to buy a new phone (he is now a little worried about the finances because he is about to change to a new job). But this morning, he continued his angry mood. Soon after I left for work, he called me and asked me if I really really wanted a NC between him and the OW. I asked him what does he think the answer is? He kept quiet. He then asked me is it a NC for life. I asked him why does he start asking all these again. He told me the phone made him think about that fateful day and he started getting angry again. He asked me what have I texted or called the OW about. He told me that my being 'over-sensitive' has broken his pure and simple friendship with the OW. I was totally heart broken. I know that MB talked about how the 'foggy' WS behaves like a complete stranger sometimes but having to deal with it is so so so painful. I wanted to let his words just slip off my shoulders but I can't. They just went straight to my heart and stab stab stab. He said now he felt very sorry for hurting the OW. He can tell everyday when he sees her in the office, she is in pain. He asked if he could write her a sorry card. Then he said he needs to think about whether we are truly compatible since he is so insensitive and I am so super sensitive. It was the same kind of treatment that caused me to lose my ground and lifted the NC the last time. But I know even if I lift the NC this time, it will not work because the OW had promised an NC. Though she has not replied my email yet, she texted me before on that fateful dat. So he keeps saying I make him miserable. I am responsible for breaking the 'pure and simple' friendship. How I must be laughing and happy now that the friendship is broken and my plans have worked. I really feel so sucidial. What kind of life is this? Even if the OW promised NC, I don't think he will ever forgive me. Then how can we worked on the M?

Jcool,

(((((HUGS)))))

I’m so sorry for your pain…

It’s clear that your H tries to manipulate you. Please don’t give in and lift the NC agreement again because it will be the worst mistake you can ever make. Your H wants to get you to argue with him jcool. Don’t allow it. In stead, start applies Orchid’s reverse babble techniques (you will find the link in her signature line). For example, when your H says he is sorry for hurting the OW you can say ”I’m sorry you hurt ME” or if he says you two are incompatible because you’re super sensitive and he’s insensitive you can say “Yes, I agree, your are very insensitive”. You got the idea but please refer to Orchid’s reverse babble thread for full explanation and a lot of other examples.

Please realize he is indeed a complete stranger at this stage jcool…he is not your H he is a WS in very deep fog and denial. He first need to stop seeing her every day at the office. He will only get into true withdrawal as soon as he starts the other job. During the first few weeks of withdrawal things might get worse but hopefully as the fog start to clear, things will get better. But in the meantime prepare on a plan B in case you need to move to that step.

Hang in there jcool… Many BS’s with recovered/recovering M’s have been where you are now. Don’t lose hope. Please go to your medical doctor if the suicidal thoughts continue… NO person on this earth is worth losing your life over…not even your H. Please don’t go there jcool. We here at MB care very much about you…

If it may help, please read the "For Encouragement" link in my signature line... Maybe one of the things on there will give you some strength for the day...

Hugs again and prayers...
Suzet

jc

quit waffling on your answers to the fogged up brain

take deep breaths
stand tall
speak clear and consisely about YOUR beliefs

he says...

asked me if I really really wanted a NC between him and the OW.
I asked him what does he think the answer is?

don't answer his questions with questions ....

say dayum straight I really want no contact...any one who believes in the sanctity of marriage does and would....dear....


He told me that my being 'over-sensitive' has broken his pure and simple friendship with the OW.

this is simple fog-babble....and you are giving it way way too much weight and substance...

in healthy marriages there are not third party "pure and simple friends"....

you are forgeting that...

now lets be clear there is no point in powerstruggling educating or even trying to work on the marriage at this time....

but there is also no point in buying in to his words...

lets be realistic...

there are no garuntees here...
he may really believe his fog babble enough and leave you..

you may really tired of his wallowing in misery...and hopefully move to plan B....

but don't get in to big conversations with him now...

I would encourage you to say little things like....

dear...here's the thing you have become like a thief to our own marriage...stealing energy...thoughts and emotions...removing them from the two of us and spending them on her....

it is not a healthy environment you were creating for our marriage.....

stuff like that...
brainwashing koolaide drinking stuff....in small spurts... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

you can not "work on the marriage" right now you aren't in recovery...

you are in the hard hard stages of withdrawal....

say things like dear the fact that you feel so emotionally hurt by ending this friendship is proof of itself that it was too emotionally charged in you....has nothing to do with me or being sensitive...

then walk away...

no long drawn out talks about this...

the truth is that you are NOT saying he can not have a pure friend like her..... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
what you are and must be saying is that you choose not to be married to a man who has such a friend...totally different....

ark

You can't work on the marriage if he DOES continue contact. Recovery is impossible until all contact ends. He is just trying to manipulate you to keep his girlfriend around. So, don't fall for it.

Can you imagine him throwing that childish fit if you had asked him to stop having lunch with his friend, FRED, at work?

Listen to Mel. This man has/is in his mind having an affair. NC for life is for a reason. Stand tall, strong, express your desire to see your husband again and to save your marriage but not at the expense of your dignity.

Thank you all so much for the advices and support! It really helped me to go through some of the darkest moments (still going through them...).
WH, after the outburst that day, came home very subdued and tried to be loving towards me. Maybe he felt bad for putting me through ******, maybe he knew he was being unreasonable, maybe this is one of those 'fog-lifted' moments. I do not know. But I sincerely hoped that I will see more of this side of him from now on. But on and off, he'll pop me a question that totally caught me off guard. Like he'll asked me to help him buy the sorry card for the OW because he is too busy. He told me that he knew the 'friendship' is over now but he just want to say sorry to her for causing her all the pain and for spoiling her reputation by being labelled as a 'home breaker' when actually she did all the right things (by asking him to stop and refuse to continue the A, by making him promise that he'll be a good husband before continuing the friendship etc). I told him that he can go buy the card himself, maybe while he is doing it, buy one for me too. He then asked, why do you need a sorry card from me? HELLO??
Anyway, I've taken the advice from you guys to try and not react to him and his actions or words. I've also stopped hoping to work on the M now since he is not fully in withdrawal yet and am patiently waiting for his last day at the office to come. I know I probably will have another ****** period by then so trying to mentally prepare myself for it (though from experience, I know that no amount of preparation can lessen the impact of the pain). Also, I have stopped trying to have long talks with him about the whole situation. First of all, like so many of you rightly point out, he is in denial. He refuses to admit that he had an A. He refuses to admit there is anything wrong with our M thus all talks about working on the M is wasted on him.

But I want to ask besides waiting out for him to come out from his fog, do I still snoop? I know he had a folder of the OW's pictures kept in his PC. He promised me that he will delete them away and not keep copies anywhere. But I feel that he probably still have them kept somewhere. Do I go look for it? After I find them, do I confront him? Will it make things worse? Should I just let it go and monitor it and see when will be (EVER) delete them away so that I will know that is the day he has totally forgotten about her?

Jcool, you must still snoop (you must do this until your H has gained back your trust and until you feel assured that your H don’t behave dishonest & wayward anymore), but I'm not sure how you should handle any discoveries at this point while your H is still in a fog and wayward mindset. Hopefully experienced BS’s and wise veterans will jump in soon to give you some suggestions and advice in this regard.

Take care and prayers,
Suzet

Yes, experienced BS and veterans, please help! What do I do with the 'evidence' at this point? Any advice is appreciated!

I have another problem too. I find that I can't let go. Sucidial thoughts keep coming in and I finally went to see a psychiatist. He diagnosed me with major depression and gave me anti-depressants. I felt very defeated at first because I never thought I would need medications to help control my emotions. I tried to tell myself to move on and plan my evenings with dinners with friends etc but I find myself not able to enjoy the conversation or company anymore. If someone calls or text my WH, I would try to snoop later to see who is it. If he says he has a meeting that night, I would find myself wondering if he is lying or not. This is so torturing. Will I ever recover from this ordeal? How can I learn to let go and move on?

Take the anti-D's. They will really help you deal with all of this. It is completely miserable to go through, and life seems like it will never get better, but it does. I promise you that.

He should NOT be buying her an "I'm sorry" card. He needs to write her a no contact letter - that he loves you, and wants to work on the marriage, that their "friendship" was a huge mistake, and he never wants contact with her again for any reason. No "sorry", no regret, nothing but a cold hard goodbye.

WH seems to feel guilty after he found out I am taking anti-D's. He told me that he was sorry for making me go through all these and was very nice to me for a couple of days. But yesterday, he was fuming again. I called me a few times in office, telling me the same thing that he is very angry, he had been hiding his anger from me because he does not want to upset me, he wanted to cause hurt to this particular colleague at work who told me about the affair for being a busybody etc. I was quite worried that he will actually do something and keep asking him to be calm and rational. But it just made things worse. He came home very quiet and withdrawn. He seemed angry at me too so I asked him why. He told me that he hate me (oh how that hurt...) and do not think he could love me now. He told me I had completely destroyed his life and I am the one who 'could not see clearly' and thus destroyed his friendship with the OP and his and her reputation because everybody in the office now avoid talking to him. I made the mistake of pleading with him to stay with me and work things out. I came back today to MB and found some very useful post and realise that I should not plead, beg or cry anymore.

I later found out that the reason he was suddenly so angry is because he tried to text the OP twice and if I am not wrong she didn't reply him at all (either that or he deleted the text). He will be leaving his company in 2 days time and I think the reality of NC is sinking in and he is started to feel the effect of withdrawal.

Dear all, please give me strength and support to go through his withdrawal. I know the worst is yet to come. I will remind myself the do's and don'ts for a newly BS but please please tell me that I am not alone because sometimes it really felt so lonely and hopeless.

So to paraphrase, what he said was "blah,blah,blah,blah."

He is spitting out directly from the WS handbook. He is going by the script which they all do, which is EXCELLENT news, because that means the MB program may work. Hang in there. Be cheerful and calm if it kills you. Then come post here. We understand.

WH came by my office purposely, saying he needs to talk. So he did. He started ranting about how angry he felt that he has allowed me to manipulate him etc etc. He also made the threat that I should not be too happy now because even though this time I have 'succeeded' in making the NC comes true, he can and will find another one and this time he will not tell me about it so that I cannot 'destroy' it again and I will be the last one to find out. Then I will know what true hurt feels like. I held my tongue many times knowing that it will only leads to more argument.

I know I am being 'thick' here but please tell me again that all these is fog talk. Once he comes out from the fog, he will not carry the threat out right?

Jcool,

Here is my 2 cents as a FWS who's H's got to see full blown withdrawal and lots of babble like you are getting right now. At the time we didn't know about MB's, but my H was in a Plan A type thing. What I found was his plan A confused me because I thought in order for him to care he had to be mad at me. I pressed him, pushed every button I could and said things that make me cringe when I think about what I did to that poor man, but he kept up with plan A. Finally, it softened me and what I realized was all that anger I was spewing at him was actually anger at myself. He stood firm and took it. I have a dear friend who knows our entire story who once told me my H deserves a medal of honor for putting up with what I put him through.

I worked with my FOM for 2 years after I ended the A and hindsight now realize what a HUGE mistake that was. I made progress in leaps and bounds once he left our employer and moved out of the neighborhood. Once your H leaves and doesn't see her on a daily basis, things should hopefully start to improve. I should warn you it might be tough at first for you because his daily "fix" will be gone.

He's blaming you for everything because it's easier to blame someone else than be accountable for one's own actions.

I'm sending tons of cyberhugs and strength your way, because carrying out Plan A during withdrawal takes a lot. Hopefully he will wake up soon and see what he is doing.

LC

He is going by the script, like they all do. He is blaming you. Now is the time to Stay in Plan A. Don't argue, be cheerful. Tell him you are sorry he is hurting.

Try to meet any of the emotional needs he will let you meet. Admiration is usually big for men. Find SOMETHING to admire - I know, it is hard.

Thank you lifechoice and believer, your words really helped keep me in perspective and god knows how much I needed that. I know my WH always has a temper and thus the anger outburst should not surprise me. When he came by my office yesterday and ranted and vented his anger, he went away still puffing. I went out dinner with my sister in order to give myself a chance to cheer up. When I went home, he was still sulking and I avoided talking to him and looking at him and just went about doing my own things. Not surprisingly, he came to apologize. I know he is also going through a roller coaster right now. We talked and I told him that I can offer him a comfortable and warm home, a family in the future if he wants (we have no kids now), stability and unwavering love. But if he thinks that is not enough, then I can't do much more and he is free to go. He told me these are not enough. He wanted freedom too. I told him in a very calm voice that if he wants freedom to have female friends, yes, I am not saying no to that. But he wants freedom to have 'special' female friends that he can have an EA with, then so sorry, no woman in that right mind will agree to that. I told him I only asked of one thing from him and that is faithfulness. He told me that he is faithful all these while because he did not have a sexual relationship with the OP, an EA to him is not a A and I should be grateful. I told him no, my boundary is this. If you want our marriage, an EA is a A and my terms of faithfulness includes that as well. He started threatening with a D and also more As (guaranteed sexual the next time round). I told him, you do what you want. I am really to move on with or without you. If you think a D will help get you what you want, then by all means. There was a tension period for a while and he later apologize for bringing up the D because he doesn't really mean it.

I do not know if I handled this situation as correctly as MB has taught. Probbably not. There are times when I really cannot control my tongue and argued back. I really feel like giving up right now but I keep telling myself that he is following a typical WS pattern and therefore he will wake up from the fog eventually. And if I did not do a proper plan A now, my plan B (if I have to go there) will not work. I really admire the FBS who had went through all these and managed to come through and save their M.

Please, experienced BS, give me some advice and enouragement to how to handle this and to hang on. F

WS, do continue to give me your insight of what you went through so that I can better understand what my WH is going through also.

I was looking back over your thread. Are he and the OW still working at the same office????!!!!!!!

jcool, I would recommend a book by Shirley Glass, titled "Not Just Friends". Info about the book can be found on this link.

At this time it's for your information, I would not suggest that you try to tell your husband about it. You can't teach an infidel while they are still in the clutches of their entitlement.

In the meantime, were there issues in your marriage prior to this emotional affair? Areas in which there was chronic friction in your relationship with your husband? Are you familiar with the concepts of Plan A and Emotional Needs? Also, how long have you been married?

Hang in there and keep breathing.

Hi believer, yes, they are currently still working in the same office but not for long since my WH tendered about a month ago. He is serving his notice period and tomorrow will be his last day in office.

Graplin, if there were issues in my M prior to this EA, I must say I am ignorant about it. But what I can say is that I do feel the two of us drifting apart slowly. I told my WH before but he said I cannot expect us to be together every minute of the day. We did had a problem of me being very sensitive and he over insensitive. But we were able to work that out before. I am still trying to read all about Plan A but have problem finding all the information. I am married for 3 years, known my WH 4 years prior to that.

Dear jcool, I personally think you handled the situation with your H very, very well. I’m proud of you! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> You clearly stated your boundaries to your H calmly without any Love Busters. You acted in control and made it clear to him that YOU will not stay part of his life if he can’t be faithful to you emotionally and physically (YOUR boundary). Keep it up jcool! Also keep the Reverse Babble technique of Orchid in mind (I posted you about it on other posts).

One thing though… You said to your H:

“I told him in a very calm voice that if he wants freedom to have female friends, yes, I am not saying no to that. But he wants freedom to have 'special' female friends that he can have an EA with, then so sorry, no woman in that right mind will agree to that.”

Please understand jcool that female friends should not include any one-sided close friendships with females where you are not part of the friendship too. Even if such a one-sided friendship never escalates to EA, it will still be inappropriate and a danger to your M (remember, that’s how his EA with the OW started out too). Friendships with members of the opposite sex should IMO be limited to persons 1) that both spouses know OR 2) that are family members OR 3) that are part of a couple that you both know.

Therefore, the only close female friends your H should allow in his life is where both of you know the person (or couple) and can be friends with the person (spend time with the person/couple together) and where the person is a friend of the marriage too. In other words, as a married man, your H can’t keep friendships with other women where he call them, text them, email them all the time and spend time alone with them. And if your H does talk to a friend where you’re not present, he must always make sure he talk about things or say things you would feel comfortable about if you were present and could hear the conversation. No discussions with a female friend that will be inappropriate for them to speak about without your presence.

Therefore, your H has a choice:

1. He can be single again and do things that will otherwise be inappropriate for a married man e.g. having female friends he call, text, e-mail all the time, having intimate conversations with and spend time alone with.

OR

2. He can be married to you.

He can’t have both. Such is called “cake eating”. Please make this boundary clear to you H too e.g. that if he wants to be married to you, he must follow guidelines and keep boundaries (as I’ve pointed out to you) that will keep opposite sex friendships on healthy and appropriate level for the marriage.

Excellent news that he won't be working any longer with her. That gives me a lot of hope for the marriage. Now stay in Plan A, and start meeting any needs that he will let you meet. And no love busters. Come here and vent if you are going crazy. We understand.

Dear Suzet and Believer, thanks so much for the encouragement and support.

WH called me the next morning after that night of talk and apologise again for bringing up the D by impulse. He said he wanted to concentrate on working on our M now and maybe when we both recover, I will understand that the friendship he had with the OP is 'pure and simple' and will learn to accept it. I almost wanted to scream at him!!! How many times do I have to repeat myself??? I held my tongue and kept quiet. But later the more I thought about it, the more I felt that I cannot take it anymore. So I texted him and told him that I will not be manipulated by him anymore, his promises always come with a condition of keeping the friendship and that he is even willing to threaten me with more affairs (strong hint that it will be sexual next time) and even a D to accomplish that. I told him that a M takes commitment and faithfulness and if he cannot do both, then I think he should just leave. I know the words I used are strong and probably many will say I should not send such a message across at this time. But I really cannot take it anymore. I tried to talk to him calmly, lovingly etc but it just didn't get through to him. I would draw the boundary and he would always try and blur the line. I thought to myself, I would rather be single for the rest of my life then to live in constant fear that he would and very likely to start another A!

After I sent the text, I was, to be honest, very worried for a while. I almost wanted to text him again to apologise (I am THAT weak). But I keep reminding myself that if I do that, I will be living in pain and suffering again like the last time I lifted the NC. So I hang on and resisted and went out dinner with a friend to keep my mind off the matter. WH was silent the whole time. Did not call or text me back. That came as a surprise to me because I thought he would get angry and would call immediately and scold me. After I went home, he came back shortly after. I avoided him for a while and finally he stopped me and asked if I want to talk about it. He told me that he is really sincere about working on the M right now and do not think about other things anymore. I told him about my boundary again and he agreed to it (But Suzet, I only saw your reply after that so I will try to bring up the points you made to him again at a later time). That came as a total surprise but I cannot tell you all how RELIVED I felt. Not that he did not get angry nor that he promised to work on the M and agree to my boundary, but the fact that I sent out the text and did not back down. That I held my boundary this time! As I think back, would I feel relived if he had chosen to leave? Yes. I am sure of that. Because I can live with myself now. I now know that I will not give up EVERYTHING including my dignity just to get him to stay.

However, I do know that as he start the real NC from tomorrow onwards, he will be experiencing the real withdrawal and tough days are yet to come. But for the first time, I saw some hope. And guys, you bet I will be coming here more than ever to vent. Do continue to give me support and encourangement! Thanks!

Here is what Dr. Harley says about contact -

Once an affair is first revealed, whether it's discovered or admitted, the victimized spouse is usually in a state of shock. The first reaction is usually panic, but it's quickly followed by anger. Divorce and sometimes even murder are contemplated. But after some time passes (usually about three weeks), most couples decide that they will try to pull together and save their marriage.

The one having an affair is in no position to bargain, but he or she usually tries anyway. The bargaining effort usually boils down to somehow keeping the lover in the loop. You'd think that the unfaithful spouse would be so aware of his or her weaknesses, and so aware of the pain inflicted, that every effort would be made to avoid further contact with the lover as an act of thoughtfulness to the stunned spouse. But instead, the unfaithful spouse argues that the relationship was "only sexual" or was "emotional but not sexual" or some other peculiar description to prove that continued contact with the lover would be okay.

Most victimized spouses intuitively understand that all contact with a lover must end for life. Permanent separation not only helps prevent a renewal of the affair, but it is also a crucial gesture of consideration to someone who has been through ******. What victimized spouse would ever want to know that his or her spouse is seeing or communicating with a former lover at work or in some other activity?

In spite of career sacrifices, friendships, and issues relating to children's schooling, I am adamant in recommending that there be no contact with a former lover for life. For many, that means a move to another state. But to do otherwise fails to recognize the nature of addiction and its cure.

Dear jcool,

You did VERY good! Again, I’m very proud of you! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Your H needed to hear those things and I think it was a very GOOD thing you've send him that sms (I thought that even before I’ve read about his positive response towards you.) You operated from STRENGTH jcool and that made your H realize that you are NOT a doormat he can willingly control and manipulate as he want to... Operating from strength (as you did yesterday) help a person gain respect for you and your boundaries. Please keep it up jcool and stay strong and stick to your boundaries when your H start to have angry outbursts towards you again because that will most likely happen especially since he will start real NC and withdrawal as from today.

Jcool, underneath is something I want you to read to help encourage you to stay positive about yourself; to help you remember that you are a strong and worthy individual and to help give you the courage and strength to keep up your boundaries. (These passages are from the book “Pulling your own strings”):

[color:"blue"]A NEW LOOK AT STRENGTH

Being strong in no way implies being powerful, manipulative, or even forceful. By operating from strength, I mean leading your life from the twin positions of worth and effectiveness.

You are always a worthy, important human being, and there is never any reason to conduct yourself, or allow others to pull or push you, in any direction in which your basic merit as a human being is challenged. Moreover, in any situation you have a choice between (1) being effective and reaching your goals, or (2) being effective and, ultimately, being restricted from doing what you desire. In most cases – not all, but most – you can be effective, and in all cased, you can operate from the position of your own intrinsic worth as a person.

In dealing with your self-worth, remind yourself that by definition it must come from yourself. You are worthy not because others say so, or because of what you accomplish, or because of your achievements. Rather, you are precious and you say so, because you believe it, and most importantly, because you ACT as if you are worthy.

Being a non-victim starts with the principle of saying and believing that you are valuable, but it is put into practice when you begin behaving as if you are worthwhile. This is the essence of strength, and of course, of not being a victim. You can’t act out of needs to be powerful or intimidating, but you must act from strength which guarantees you will be treated as a worthy person simply because you believe down to your very soul that you do count.

Being effective is not an universal given, as is your own self-esteem. At times you will not attain your goals. Occasionally you will find people irrationally impossible to deal with, or encounter situations where you’ll have to back off or compromise to avoid being further victimized. You can, however, cut these “losses” down to an unavoidable minimum, and more important, you can eliminate totally the emotional upsets of being thwarted now and then.

Being effective simply means you apply all your personal resources and use all available strategies, short of stepping on others, to achieve your objectives. Your own worth and personal effectiveness are the cornerstones of operating from strength.

Keep in mind that a breakdown of the word invalid, meaning a physically weak person, comes out in valid. By living your life from a position of emotional weakness you are not only a loser most of the time, but you virtually invalidate yourself as a person. “But”, “you must ask, “why would I ever do a thing like that to myself?”

FEAR: SOMETHING THAT RESIDES IN YOU

Most of the reasons you’d give yourself for not operating from strength involve some kind of fear of “what will happen if…”. You may even admit that you are often “paralyzed by fear.” But what is it that you think comes from somewhere out of the blue and immobilizes you? If you started on a scavenger hunt today and you were told to bring back a bucket full of fear, you could look forever, but you’d always come home empty-handed. Fear simply does not exist out there in the world. It is something that you do to yourself by thinking fearful thoughts and having fearsome expectations. No one in this world can hurt you unless you allow it, and then of course you are hurting yourself.

You may be victimized because you’ve convinced yourself that some person won’t like you, or that some disaster will befall you, or that there are any of thousands of other excuses, if you do things your way. But the fear is internal, and is supported by a neat little system of thoughts which you cleverly use to avoid dealing directly with your self-imposed dread. You may express these thoughts to yourself in sentences like the following:

I’ll fail
I’ll look stupid
I’m unattractive
I’m not sure
They might hurt me
They might not like me
I’d feel too guilty
I’ll lose everything
They might get mad at me
U might lose my job
God won’t let me into heaven
Something bad will probably happen if I do
I know I’ll feel awful if I say that
I won’t be able to live with myself.

Thoughts like these betray and internal support system and maintain a fear-based personality which keeps you from operating from strength. Every time you reach inward and come up with one of these fear sentences, you’ve consulted your weakness mentality, and the victim stamp will soon be evident on your forehead.

If you have to have a guarantee that everything will be all right before you take a risk, you will never get off first base, because the future is promised to no one. There are no guarantees on life’s services to you, so you’ll have to toss away your panicky thoughts if you want to get what you want out of life. Moreover, almost all your fearful thoughts are purely head trips. The disasters you envision will rarely surface. Remember the ancient sage who said, “I’m an old man, and I’ve had many troubles, most of which have never happened.”

The brilliant English author and lexicographer Samuel Johnson once wrote,

All fear is painful, and when it conduces not to safety, is painful without use – Every consideration, therefore, by which groundless terrors may be removed, adds something to human happiness.

Johnosn’s words are still vital some two hundered years after he wrote them. If your fears are groundless, they are useless, and removing them is indispensable for you happiness.

EXPERIENCE AS AN ANTIDOTE TO FEAR

You cannot learn anything, undermine any fear, unless you are willing to DO something. Doing, the antidote to fear and most self-defeating behavior, is shunned by most victims who operate from weakness. But the maximum of education that makes the most sense to me is:

I hear: I forget
I see: I remember
I Do: I understand

You will never know what it feels like to get rid of a fear until you risk behavior that confronts it. Just as no one can teach you fear, no one can teach you not to be afraid. Your fears are your own unique sensations, and you alone are going to have to challenge them. You just have to get out there, grovel around, fail a lot, try this, change that – in a word, experiment. But can you really imagine that experimenting and experiencing, will decrease your wisdom and chances for success? If you refuse to give yourself the necessary experiences, you are saying to yourself, “I refuse to know”. And refusing to know will make you weak and assure your victimization by others.

You can’t know strengths unless you are willing to test yourself - and if all tests always succeeded, there would be no need for them, so you can’t stop testing whenever you fail. When you get to the point where you are willing to attempt anything that seems worthwhile to YOU (not them, you), then you will understand experience as the antidote to fear. Benjamin Disraeli, the witty nineteenth-century English statesman and author, said it quite succinctly in his earlier writings:

Experience is the child of Thought, and Thought is the child of Action. We cannot learn men from books.

First you think, and then you do, and only thirdly do you know. And that is how you challenge all the timidity that keeps you a victim.

COURAGE: A NECESSARY COMMODITY FOR NON-VICTIMS

Willingness to confront fear is called courage. You will find it very hard to overcome your fears unless you are willing to muster up some valor, even though you will find that you already posses it if you are willing to realize it.

Courage means flying in the face of criticism, relying on yourself, being willing to accept and learn from the consequences of all your choices. It means believing enough in yourself and in living your life as you choose so that you cut the strings whose ends other people hold and use to pull you in contrary directions.

You can make your mental leaps toward courage by repeatedly asking yourself: ”What is the worst thing that could happen to me if…?” When you consider the possibilities realistically, you will almost always find that nothing damaging or painful can happen when you take the necessary steps away from being a knee-jerk victim. Usually you will find that, like a child afraid of the dark, you are afraid of nothing, because nothing is the worst thing that could happen to you. Failing generally means ending up where you started, and while it may not be utopia, it is certainly a situation you can handle. Cora Harris, the American author, said it this say:

The bravest thing you can do when you are not brave is to profess courage and act accordingly.

I like the idea of professing courage, because the important thing to do is act, rather than to try to convince yourself of how brave you are or aren’t at any given moment.

UNDERSTANDING YOUR OPERATING-FROM-WEAKNESS DIVIDENDS

Any time you catch yourself paralyzed by fear – in a world, victimized – ask yourself: “What am I getting out of this?” Your first temptation will be to answer, “Nothing”. But go a little deeper and you’ll ask why people find it easier to be victims than to take strong stances of their own, to pull their own strings.

You can seemingly avoid a lot of risks, avoid ever “putting yourself on the spot”, by simply giving up and letting others take control. If things go badly you can blame whoever is pulling your strings, call them bad names, and neatly avoid your own greater responsibility. At the same time you can conveniently avoid having to change; you are “free” to remain a “good little victim”, getting regular dividends of phony approval from the victimizers of the world.

The payoff of weakness almost all come out of your avoidance of risks. Keep in mind that it is crucial for you to always be appraised of your own reward system, self-defeating though it may be, as you work toward improving the quality of your life in every behavioral and mental dimension.

NEVER PLACE ANYONE’S HEAD ABOVE YOUR OWN

If you are ready to give “operating form strength” a serious go, you will have to stop placing other people above yourself in value and worth. Whenever you give another person more prestige than you give yourself, you have set yourself yup to be victimized.

Strength is a word I used with a great amount of pre-thought. I’ve been careful to define it in explicit terms. Being cantankerous, unruly, obnoxious, deceitful, and the like is not advocated, since it will almost always turn away the very people you want to have help you. I am, of course, supportive of being able to be obnoxious if it is called for on extreme occasions. You just don’t have to be passive or weak as you walk through your life steps, and that is really the fundamental lesson of this chapter. Be a worthy, effective, self-important you, rather than a sniveling permission-seeking victim who believes that everyone is more important than you are.

ISN’T IT IRONIC – PEOPLE RESPECT STRENGTH

If you really want to be respected, take a hard look at those who are so expert at getting respect. You will quickly deduce that you will not gain anyone’s respect, including your own, by operating from weakness. You must set aside the idea that people will not like you if you behave assertively.

Whenever you find yourself standing up for what you believe and wondering what everyone else is thinking, rest assured that if you took a private poll, you would find almost everyone secretly pulling for you, and admiring your attitude of toughness. So not setting your goals according to which ones will win the immediate approval of others may, paradoxically, help you get their approval in the long run – and no one is denying that if feels better to receive approval than to be rejected. It might just be comforting to know that the people whose approval you are most concerned about are much more prone to respect you when you behave from your own convictions than when you simply tag along and do what is expected of you.[/color]

Dear Suzet and Believer, thanks so much for the reading materials. Was digesting it slowly over the weekend. Went away for a short trip with WH right after his last day. Didn't want him to sulk at home. He tried to put on a front for me, trying to smile at me when he saw me looking at him, trying not to look so depressed etc. Trying is the key word here because he is not very successful. I can tell that his mind is totally not with him or me. He will go blank and stare for a long time or he will let out very long sigh... He will also (when he cannot help it) made some very biting remarks towards me. I know he is in withdrawal so I just let it go and not push him further. However, it does hurt like ****** to know that he is missing her so much and he probably wished that it was HER that was on this trip with him instead of me. I know even till the last day he had tried to contact her, sending her sms to apologize and wish her all the best, wanting her to forgive him for bringing all the pain and suffering to her (for spoiling her reputation eventhough she did all the right things like stopping the A and being just his 'friend' etc), writing her a sorry letter, calling her etc. But the OW kept to her promise or at least I would like to think so. Either she didn't respond at all (which will account for his withdrawal symptoms) or he deleted her reply.

In any case, I keep telling myself to let go and move on. It's a pity now that my health is still not quite up to it else I would like to go do some sports to keep my spirits up. But I have been faithfully taking my medicine and the anti-Ds to keep depression away. I don't know if I should be doing this but I find myself mentally preparing for plan B. I keep asking myself if after say 2-3 months, if he asked to resume contact with her or if he asked me to help explain to her that everything is ok between us and thus I can 'accept' their friendship now, what should I do then? I have stated my boundaries but I know in his foggy mind he refused to accept that NC is for life. So I find myself asking what should I do then?

Hang in there! Yes, it is very hard to know that he is missing the OW, and would probably have liked her to go with him on your little trip. He is mourning not having contact with her.

You need to be upbeat and calm. Withdrawal doesn't last that long. Come here to vent if you are going crazy.

I made the mistake of telling my WH not to come to me for comfort when he was missing the OW - that he got himself into the mess and could get himself out. Now we are DIVORCED.

Dear Jcool, if you have not yet read the withdrawal thread in my signature line, please do so.

Jcool, if your H would ask you to be friends with OW again, you should state to your H firmly again that NC for life is absolutely non-negotiable to you and one of your boundaries to stay married and recover with him. If he should not respect this boundary, then you should move to plan B. If you have a strong suspicion that he will not become accepting of this boundary permanently and keep it in place, you should mentally, emotionally, financially etc. start preparing yourself for plan B just for incase… In the meantime, continue a good plan A and continue to not be manipulated and controlled by your H. If he treats you disrespectfully, state to him calmly but firmly that his behavior is hurting you and not acceptable.

Please read this: Carrot and Stick of plan A (just click on the link).

Hang in there jcool and keep posting.

(((Hugs)))

First of all, I must really thanked esp believer and suzet for continuing their care and support for me. This forum is now my main source of comfort and direction for my current situation.

Some updates and dilemma...

I continued my snooping and found some very disturbing things. I think my WH is trying to find a 'replacement' for the OW. I found a bunch of 'farewell' pictures that my H took during his last few days at the office. Many of them consisted of a particular female colleague. Either the 2 of them will be hugging tightly or if it's a group photo, he will always be standing beside her holding her shoulder or waist etc. I have also found that they still communicate on a daily basis (up till today, after he left the company 4 days ago) via sms or MSN. I know he purposely kept those text messages for me to see because he knew I was snooping. Though the converations are still quite within 'limits' so far, he had started calling her 'darling' or 'dear' and trying to make it sound casual.

I think I know what he was trying to do. During one of our previous arguments, he said that he is capable of finding another woman if he really wants to but he choose not to and decides to stay with me and work on the marriage. So I should trust that he will not cross the line again. The reason he felt so bad about losing the 'friendship' with the OW is because though finding another woman is easy, finding a 'special' friend that he can easily confide in is not easy. Thus, it is not that he still has feelings for her but that he wanted to keep the 'pure and simple' friendship. I think he is trying to show me that he can move so close to 'the line' and be able to control himself so well that he will not cross it. Also, he is daring me to pick a fight with him about this female colleague so that he can strengthen his accusations of me being overly sensitive. Afterall, they are just 'friends' and thus I over reacted towards his 'friendship' with the OW too!

What should I do now? I have a strong feeling that he is still refusing to believe I really want NC for life. He hinted that I should be SO GRATEFUL that he stayed with me this time. I had previously disregard all these fog-induced remarks but I think the chances of me moving to a Plan B is very high... But with the current situation, he seems intent on taunting me about my boundary, should I start Plan B right away?

Jcool, how long are you in plan A now and do you think you’ve implemented it successfully? It does sound to me if you need to move to plan B very soon if your H doesn't stop this. I’m shocked that he is trying to find a “replacement” for the OW now and continues inappropriate behavior with this other woman too… I’m so sorry to hear this jcool… <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> NOW is the time to show your H again that you will not allow to be controlled, manipulated and disrespected by him this way...

Here is what I think you should to:

Tell your H what you've found and how disrespectful and hurtfull it is to you. Then make your boundaries on opposite sex friendship and interactions with the opposite sex (as I have suggested previously) very clear to your H e.g. that NC for life with the OW is non-negotiable; that you don’t want him to have any one-sided opposite sex friendships where you are excluded from the friendships and that you expect him from now on to act appropriately with work colleagues and acquaintances.

You need to decide what your own boundaries are; what you will tolerate and then communicate them to your H. Then give him a last chance to prove that he can respect your boundaries and tell him that you are giving him this last chance to demonstrate that he does cares for you enough to stop doing anything that hurts you. If he refuses to do it and still acts inappropriately; disrespectfull and label you as “over-sensitive”, it shows that he doesn’t care about your feelings and is not willing to do what it takes to A proof your M and then you can and should act accordingly e.g. making clear to your H that this is unacceptable to you (boundary issue) and that you’re going to move on with your life in that case. Then you can write him a plan B letter and move to plan B if he still refuses and/or you find out that his actions hasn't changed. (There are some examples of plan B letters on this website).

Jcool, I want to share with you a post MelodyLane posted to a BW who struggle with similar behavior from her H than you:

[color:"blue"] You can choose to live in a marriage that is vulnerable to affairs, where your H does not care or respect you or you can choose not to. The choice is entirely up to you. It all depends on what you are willing to settle for. [/color]

[color:"blue"]This is what you have to tell us. This is completely contingent upon what you are willing to tolerate.

I had a similar issue with my H about 4 yrs ago. He was a freeloader in our marriage [now a buyer]. I made a decision that I was not interested in settling for second best anymore and decided to move on. He suddenly rose to the challenge and changed the behavior that was threatening our marriage. He changed from a freeloader to a buyer because I made him come up with the purchase price. No more free rides from me.

However, if I had not been willing to protect my boundary and refuse to settle for less, I would still be GETTING LESS.

So, if you choose to settle for less, that is what you will get. If you put a higher price on yourself and give him the opportunity to pay it, I suspect he will pay it.

In other words, because I placed a higher value on myself, my husband does too NOW; I am valuable to him. He respects me much more and is willing to do the things necessary to demonstrate CARE in our marriage.[/color]

Underneath are the definitions Melody posted on freeloader, renter and buyer.

[color:"blue"] Freeloader is unwilling to put much effort into the care of his or her partner in a romantic relationship. He or she does only what comes naturally and expects only what comes naturally. It's like a person who tries to live in a house without paying rent or doing anything to improve it unless the person is in the mood to do so.

Renter is willing to provide limited care as long as it's in his or her best interest. The romantic relationship is considered tentative, so the care is viewed as short-term. It's like a person who rents a house and is willing to stay as long as the conditions seem fair, or until he or she finds something better. The person is willing to pay reasonable rent and keep the house clean but is not willing to make repairs or improvements. It's the landlord's job to keep the place attractive enough for the renter to stay and continue paying rent.

Buyer is willing to demonstrate an extraordinary sense of care by making permanent changes in his or her own behavior and lifestyle to make the romantic relationship mutually fulfilling. Solutions to problems are long-term solutions and must work well for both partners because the romantic relationship is viewed as exclusive and permanent. It's like a person who buys a house for life with a willingness to make repairs that accomodate changing needs, painting the walls, installing new carper, replacing the roof, and even doinf some remodeling so that it can be comfortable and useful.[/color]

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...e=0#Post3280659

Jcool,

Just wanted to let you know that I think you are doing good. I am not happy to hear about these last incidents with your Xws' farewell pictures. Hm.....

You have identified your boundaries and it applies to ALL OPs. Clarify that with him. I did with mine. Yes, I said OPs then explained that it included anyone (OP - male or female). H was offended I would even consider him bi-sexual. LOL!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> He isn't but I told him that in his WS state of mind, I couldn't chance anything. LOL!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> Basically I painted the picture one step worse and so he had to make is all better. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Do NOT back down on your boundaries. If he threatens getting another OW or having an easy time getting an OW, consider it a threat and resort to your back up plan immediately. Mine tried t/d the same. I told him, he can do what he pleased but that w/b outside our home and there w/b NO support for his attitude or A. This even meant him sleeping in his truck.

I have no tolerance for any type of a WS attitude. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Keep up the good work. You have some good supporters here posting to you (i.e. believer, Suzet, etc.). <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> They are doing a great job.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

take care,
L.

Hi Suzet, I think I've been in 'real' Plan A ever since I started my anti-Ds, that should be about 2 weeks ago. I tried Plan A many times before since D day but I did so without stating my boundary (as you know I only managed to do that successfully quite recently) and I was in huge amount of pain, suffering and resentment that it often ended up in me losing more self esteem rather than accomplishing anything else. So, like I said, I think the 'real' Plan A started about 2 weeks ago. It was a very short time and I was not allowed to meet much EN since my WH was very much into withdrawal and prefers to be left alone rather than for example hear me say ILY. That is why I am a bit hesitant to go straight to Plan B because I don't think I did a good Plan A yet. At least not in his most painful stage of withdrawal where basically I am facing a stone wall everyday. I thought that if I can hang on and wait for example about 2-3 weeks, when hopefully the most painful stage for him is over, I can slowly draw him back and start some small talk. Right now, talking is kept to very minimal (because he didn't want to) and I cannot even bring up the subject of boundary at all. Perhaps I should try to write him a letter? I am really getting uncomfortable with his 'entitlement' attitute and I am afraid that if I waited too long, the now potentially EA will really progress into a real EA.

I have one other very realistic question too. If I move into a Plan B and ask him to move out, what if he simply refuse? Do I move out then? But it will make me suffer financially and I do not think I should be the one to move out. But what if he simply stay put? Should I move out irregardless so as to show him I can stand on my own?

Jcool, 2 weeks is short so I do think it will be helpful if you can stay in Plan A a little longer. However, plan A does not mean you can’t establish boundaries and communicate those boundaries (and hurt) with your H. You must do those things too. I think a letter is a good idea. Have you read the link to the Carrot and Stick of Plan A I posted to you in an earlier post? Make sure you implement all those things during plan A.

As I’ve suggested in an earlier post, you can also apply/combine the 180 degree strategy with your plan A, especially since your H is not open to your affections and declarations of love and act like a “stone wall” towards you. HERE is a link to the 180 degree again someone posted a while ago. It’s only guidelines, but it’s similar to what you've already instinctively start doing e.g. stopped saying "I love you" to your H and not acting clingy and needy towards him.

Jcool, I personally agree that ideally your H should be the one to move out when it comes to that and that he should be the one to suffer financial consequences and other consequences for his actions (and lack of actions), but unfortunately I don’t have knowledge and wisdom on this specific issue, so I hope veterans and experienced BS's will jump in soon to give you suggestions and opinions on this.

Take care.

Hi jcool, I've already responded to you earlier today, but I’ve searched around in the meantime and here is a good post I’ve found by frognomore to a BH who wanted to know how to execute plan B without moving out. Some posters adviced this BH to pack the WS’s bags, stick them to the curb and change the locks of the house if the WS refuses to move out, but of course that can have legal implications. Therefore, in case you might need to go to plan B, I think the following advice and suggestions of frognomore will apply to you too. I’ve adjusted some words in the post to make it applicable to YOU personally, but HERE (link) is the original post (hope you don't mind frognomore! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />).

[color:"blue"] What you do is consult an attorney and make sure that deciding to go into plan B does not conflict with the WS legal rights.

I am assuming you don't own the house in just your name.

You can invite him to leave but if he refuses there is nothing you can do.

So in a case like this a dark plan B may be impossible.

You would have to go to your lawyer and start a divorce proceeding.

In other words you may have no option but to go from Plan A to Plan D.

Hoping Plan D snaps him out of it.

I live in California and no lawyer in the world would suggest kicking your spouse out or leaving until a legal document was drawn up and agreed to by both parties.

So my advice is you don't leave and then don't try to kick him out.

Get a lawyer and figure out what you can legally do. [/color]

jc..
the stuff about finding another EA..is just blowing smoke right now...

it's his lashing out to hurt you because he hurts...
and though he wants to believe strongly that he is hurting because he is "losing his best friend.."

he really hurts because he is so far removed from living in a good and decent life....

the evilness of an affair....makes it seem like all the good and bad emotions are wrapped up in the OP....but the feelings are really just extensions of their own actions and choices...and all choices have consequences...

his choices to have the affair...
have led to...

him becoming a liar
him becoming someone who routinely says cruel things to his spouse...(even in great honest conflict we all hold the power not to be cruel to our spouses....)
etc etc

and here's the other thing...the fact that the other woman did go no contact ....so readily...is really not because of your contact and your implorings..it's because she KNOWS it's not right...

that she can see the things that are the negative side of this friendship streaming from her and YOUR husband...
she holds him accountable...
and she holds herself accountable..

husband still isn't there...much easier to lash out and hurt you jc...

will your husband continue to seek out others...to feed his self hurt...

no one knows...the goal is that true recovery here...
leads to you both realizing that it is in eachother you CAN create those connections he desires...

but this site can also offer you JC..the opportunity to make authentic decisions if his answer is yes he will continue to seek others always...
and it will be you who can walk away...
with peace...

that he alone chooses ...

two weeks in to plan A

step it up...

and see where it gets you...

lessen the entanglement in the arguements...
learn to babble back more to his fog...

be wary of this cycle where he believes he can go off on you and say the most creul things....and then as long as he aploigizes it makes it OK...

this is the time to stop YOUR participation in that cycle so he beging to realize that if he wants to communicate with you ....even his sooo called so important "bad" feelings and emotions...he better learn a different way to tell you he's hurting....

you can even empathize with his hurting....
but NOT ever when it is laced with blame and vileness...

ARK

I've finally pluck up some courage again and talk to my WH about the boundary issue. He was acting ok for the past few days, not loving or caring as a H should, but ok in that he is no longer making biting comments or refusing to talk to me. I was debating whether I should talk to him now (after some improvement from him) because I do not want him to go back to the previous days' dark mood again. But after reading the post from Suzet and Ark, I realise that I will if I don't do that now and the potential EA may really evolve into a real EA and I will in the future hate myself for not bringing the message across.

So I took a few deep breaths and ask him calmly if I could talk to him. He said ok. I told him that I saw those 'farewell' pictures and I think the way they hugged each other is inappropriate for a married man (and woman, that particular female colleague is married too). Also, I know that they have been keeping in contact on a daily basis and sending texts like 'i miss you' is very inappropratie too. Not to mentioned, I am very hurt by these actions. He responded with the usual 'you are being over sensitive again. i already promised you that i will stay faithful from now on, these actions do not mean anything'. I told him it is not just about him, he may felt that it meant nothing and maybe in his heart, it really meant nothing. But the message he is sending across may mean something to the other party. He may be teling the other party that hey, though I am married, I am still available and very willing to continue to 'party'. At least the message he is sending across to me means that. He then became very quiet and I can see that he is shutting me off already. But I continue the one sided converstaion. I told him again that I feel very hurt by his actions and I hope that he will respect me and not do that again. My boundary is this, if you really want to stay and work on the marriage, then I think you should be commited and make some changes in your behaviour and stop acting inappropriately. I quoted him the example of freeloader and buyer. I told him also that should he feel that this is too much to ask of him, that he does not wish to stay within the boundary, he is feel to go. I may not live terribly happy for a while, but I'll live and I'll get better. I rather live alone than to live the rest of my life in constant fear and wonder if he is going or wishing to start another A, EA or PA. Again, he kept very quiet but I can see defiant in his eyes. I asked what is his decision. He told me he does not want to talk to me about this at this point because he thinks it is not the right time nor the right frame of mind (whether he is referring to his or my mind, I do not know). I know he is trying to delay making the decision and do not want to push it further since he is not receptive yet. But I asked him if he understand what I am trying to say and if he understand the point I am trying to make. He said yes. I told him ok then it is enough for me at this point. We can talk again some other time later when he is ready.

Though I would very much hope for a 'perfect' ending to this talk, I know in his current state of fog, this is actually not too bad already. But I cannot stress enough on the amount of relief I felt for once again standing up for myself. I know Suzet would be proud of me too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I now know that even if eventually I have to move to a plan B or even a plan D, I can face myself and said that I have done all I could to save the marriage without compromising my dignitity!

Dear jcool, you did good. I’m indeed proud of you! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Now, should your H label you as “over-sensitive” (or whatever) again or try to “bargain” with you again on continuing his inappropriate behavior, say something like the following to him:

“Hubby, I’ve said to you that I will give you a chance to prove that you can respect my boundaries and demonstrate that you care enough for me to stop doing anything that hurts me. You still don’t show a willingness to respect my boundaries and that shows me that you doesn’t care about my feelings and is not willing to do what it takes to A proof our marriage. If that is your final choice, you are free to go so that I can move forward with my life. But if you choose to respect my boundaries and safeguard our marriage, we can both work together to recover our M.”

If he tries to get you in a fight, don’t allow him to. Just calmly but firmly state the above boundaries again and stick to it every time he starts coming up with rationalizations and justifications to continue his behavior and/or start accusing/label you to avoid taking actions/responsibility to apply those boundaries. It’s called “the broken record” and it’s a very effective way to be assertive towards disrespectful and hurting behavior. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Keep posting and updating jcool.

I have the afternoon off today and will also not be able to post during the weekend, but I will be back on Monday to see how it’s going with you.

Take care of yourself jcool. I will think of you and send a “strength” prayer for you during the weekend. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

After I had my one sided conversation with my WH about the boundary issues and inappropriate behaviours, I thought nothing had gone into his foggy brain. But since that day, I haven't seen any exchange of sms or MSN. Either he really felt my hurt or he has learned to delete the messages. I don't know what to believe now.

I have a better chance at snooping today and managed to download the pictures that he took of that female colleagues and the MSN conversation records. I realised that most of the time, he initiated the conversation and the pattern that he is following is scarily similar to how he started with the OP the last time.

I am going to keep all these records just in case I need to use them in the future (though I sincerely hoped not!).

The update is that he is still around, physically at least. Mentally I know he is not back yet. He is trying to act very neutral to me, not loving nor hateful. I told him last night that I am going for a MC session 3 days later. He is welcome to come along. As I expected he kept very quiet. He has been against the idea right from the beginning. He even told me once that 'our marriage is not broken, please don't try to fix it'. But it is ok, my friend told me that the MC session will at least help ME handle to crisis better. At first I was quite reluctant to go because I thought it will be useless since I cannot work on the M alone. But after reading some of the M notes, I realise that going for MC is not only about the A and M, it is also about being the right person for the M. Hope my session goes well!

ARRGGG!!! Just had a major love buster! I'm so frustrated with myself!

Didn't expect my WH to have such a huge reaction towards me looking for a MC. He came home today demanding to know when did I make the appointment. I told him I can't remember. He then probe further if it was before or after his resignation. I felt something is coming my way but I do not understand what the big fuss is all about. So I told him, definitely after he tendered (which was a month ago), so maybe about 2-3 weeks ago. Then he asked again, is it before or after his last day in office. I said again I seriously can't remember, should be before his last day because that was only about a week ago. Then he again asked, what do you intend to tell the counsellor? You want to drag up the whole story again didn't you? I said no, that was not THE reason why I went for a MC. Yes, the session will include talking about the A but mainly to help me deal with the situation right now and help me move on. What situation? He asked. Then he started getting all defensive about me not able to let go, me scheming behind his back all these while and plan for a MC session without telling him etc. I felt really puzzled. Why the big fuss over MC? Then he just stomp off and went to do his own things. I felt that I cannot let him keep coming and vent his anger and then just walk away. So I asked him what was wrong. Why was making the MC appointment before or after his last day in office so important. He told me he just wanted to test me. To see if I was lying. Where did that come from??? He said he wanted to see if I enjoyed the 'probing' because this was exactly the feeling he felt when I keep asking him about the A previously. I felt that he was just trying to pick a fight and I got angry too. What right does he have to come storming back and spoil my day? What was he trying to do to 'test and probe' me? I wasn't the one who had an A!! We started arguing and got all defensive. He told me not to 'challenge' him. When he said he will not cross the line, he will not cross it. Don't doubt him anymore. If I keep thinking that he will (thereby challenging him) then he WILL purposely do it to spike me. So I asked why does he want to hurt me like that. Does he knows that it hurts. He says yes, I purposely want to hurt you like that because I do not like others to challenge me. Anyway, the whole arguement ended very badly and I am typing this in tears. I do not know how to undo the damages but I do not know if I WANT to. Just when I thought that things are starting to look up, it turned for the worst again. I know I should not get into an argument with him but I just cannot help it. This is all so frustrating!

He's in withdrawal big time and it's easier to blame you than to face himself and his choices.

It all sounds like WS babble to me.

LC

It is very WS babble. As I was arguing with him, I couldn't help but wonder who is this man that I am talking to. Definitely not the same one that I married. I knew I shouldn't start arguing with him because it will only make things worse. And it had. So what do I do now?

Continue in your Plan A. This was just a little bump in the road. Your anti-D's should be starting to kick in now. Also, your hubby should be over the worst of withdrawal in another couple of weeks.

I would INSIST on counseling. Don't let things be swept under the rug. If he refuses to go, you go.

Hi jcool,

I’m sorry to hear what happened over the weekend... I 100 % agree with believer and lifeschoice. Continue plan A and don’t be discouraged by this incident. Learn to babble back to your H (Reverse Babble technique in Orchid’s signature). The counseling will be a good thing even if you have to go alone. It will be good for you to have a professional person to speak to and help & support you through this as well.

Take very much care of yourself jcool and make sure you follow a healthy diet, sleep enough and do some exercise (it will help release the stress and with the anti-D’s, help to relief the depression too).

(((Hugs)))
Suzet

Dear jcool,

You're very quite...

How are you doing? What happened with the counselling session? Did you go alone?

Keep posting and seeking support here,
Suzet

Hi Suzet, thanks for your concern. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

My WH, after that huge fight, called me the next day and said that though he didn't like me throwing something like this to him so last minute, but he will go with me because he wanted to move on too. So we went. But it didn't turn out as 'good' as I hoped it to be.

Well, the counsellor started by asking why do we think we need to come see her. My WH spoke first. And he gave the usual 'i don't think the M has any problem but she insisted, so i came'. He did not mention the A at all. When it was my turn, I brought up the A and she subsequently asked a couple of questions to understand both our point of view more. I got to hear more of 'his side' of the story, things that he did not tell me or did not surface during our arguments. I don't know if it is the 'tactic' of the MC that after seeing how resentful my WH is, she sort of took the stand of sympathising with him and pointed out that I over reacted sometimes. I have to be fair, she did try to point out certain things that as a woman, it is natural that I would feel this way and that. But maybe because I was not a good narrator, I tend to stray and talk about something else and could not get to the point of the story as fast as I could thus she stopped me a couple of times and asked me if my WH has heard this part, if so, there is no need for me to tell her. For example, my WH said that I tried to 'threaten' him by trying to take my own life. I did try to commit suicide once, but that was not to 'threaten' him but because at that point, the pain and suffering was so intense that I felt I could not take it anymore. But luckily, my sister called me at the right time, saying she felt uneasy for no reason at all and thus decide to see if I was doing ok. She then proceed to console me that things are not as bad as they looked now and asked me to hang on. Somehow, talking to her made me came to some perspective of things and I quickly went to see a doc to undo the damages. It was a very traumatic experience for me and I thought he knew the reason why I did that. Now then I know that he felt that I was 'threatening' or 'blackmailing' him. But the MC just asked if I really did try to commit suicide and I said I did but before I could go on, she stopped me.

The only good thing that came out of that session is that we both made a promise to work on the M. My WH walked out feeing a whole lot better. He felt that he is not alone (the whole world was telling him that he did the wrong thing, a statement he made in the session). Someone (the counsellor) stood on his side and felt the same way as him, that I over reacted and made the situation seemed a lot worse than it has to be. But I walked away feeling all those resentment and sadness creeping up. Did I really over reacted? Why wasn't I allowed to speak my side of the story? As I calm down 2 days later, I asked myself, what good would it accomplish if I get to say all I want to say? Would my WH be so receptive then? Maybe not. Maybe that is why the counsellor stopped me. But the following 2-3 days after the session was quite terrible for me. I sort of re-lived the entire horrible period following my WH confession. I keep re-playing the scenes and conversations that happened and it was totally killing me. But I had to hide my pain because my WH started working on his promise. He actually was more loving towards me and resume doing things that he knew I would like. So I do not know if this is the 'plot' of the counsellor.

But right now, I guess any good reaction from my WH is good news, regardless of how that come about. We are due to see the counsellor in another weeks time and I guess I just have to wait and see.

That is wonderful news that he went to the counselor. You will need to wait and see how good the counselor is. But I know from other's experiences that often the counselor will take some time to make the WS feel comfortable before jumping them about the adultery. In the cases where the counselor sides completely with the BS from the start, the WS often refuses to return.

Also it is excellent that your hubby felt better after the session and he is working on things. Be sure to stay positive, cheerful and give him lots of admiration. I'm very hopeful.

Thank you believer! Your assurance brought tears to my eyes. To tell you the truth, I started crying daily again after the session because I keep asking myself the questions - Was I wrong? Did I over reacted? Did I break a totally innocent 'friendship'? Was it too much of me to ask for NC for life? etc. So I keep looking back at my notes and recall the incidents and that is SO killing me. It reminded me of my WH's infidelity all over again.

So I keep telling myself, it is the counsellor's 'tactic' of getting the WH to open up and accept her and be willing to work with her. And the fact is that it worked. So I should be more happy than sad. But I was secretly worried that if this is to go on, he may get the idea that hey, he really did nothing wrong this time, it was ME who over reacted and carry on in this fog of his. Also, I am worried that at the end of it, she will ask me to lift the NC. But I think I worry too much too prematurely. With your assurance believer, I think I am going on the right track.

I was very tempted to bring this up in the next session - that I was totally miserable for the whole 2 weeks. But maybe it is not a good idea? She gave us an assignment to try to do something nice for each other but don't tell each other about it. Then in the next session, let us 'report' what we found. I guess that is to make us appreciate each other again. So bringing up the bad (how miserable I am) instead of the good (what nice things he did for me) is not ideal at this time maybe?

I wouldn't bring up the bad, and would do the assignment instead. Be sure to find things to admire about him. That is usually a big need for many men.

Time will tell on the counselor. Hopefully she is a good one. He needs no contact for life.

What nice things has he been doing?

Jcool,

I must admit after I’ve read your update on the counseling session yesterday, I felt very disappointed and worried about the fact that the counselor appeared to “side” with your H. I was especially concerned and worried to read that she agreed with your H that you “over reacted and made the situation seemed a lot worse than it has to be”. My first thought while reading your post was that the counselor doesn’t have enough knowledge and experience on infidelity and probably don’t view your H’s past involvement with the OW as emotional infidelity. Therefore my first impulse was to tell you to get another counselor…someone who specializes and understands the damaged caused by infidelity (including emotional infidelity) and are familiar with the MB concepts & principles… But I was afraid my assumptions are wrong and I didn’t want to upset you unnecessarily (that’s why I didn’t post yesterday). Then today, after I’ve read believer’s post to you, I felt relieved and realized that probably this IS just a "tactic" from the counselor to comfort your H before she will address his infidelity. I must say I don’t know how marriage counselors approach these things (me and my H never received marriage counseling, I only received IC), but after I’ve read believer’s post I felt more hopeful. I’m still concerned though… Therefore I was thinking: What’s the possibility of you making a appointment with the counselor alone (before you and your H’s next “joined” session) to just make sure that this is indeed just a “tactic” of the counselor to “comfort” your H to first win his trust and allow him to open up towards her and work with her? That she does specializes in infidelity and most importantly, realize what your H did was emotional infidelity and will address it with him some time (that she will not just sweep it under the “rug”)? I think such a conversation might help you to determine whether you’re really on the right “path” with this specific counselor.

jcool, what are the counselors own qualifications? What is her success rate? What is her clinical experience with infidelity? Does she know about Marriage Builders? What is her opinion of Marriage Builders?

Many MC are themselves DIVORCED or are in unhappy marriages. MC have the absolute WORST record of success of all the counseling specialities. [16% of clients report any benefit at all] Most are just quacks who are not pro-marriage.

Dr. Harley recommends this:

"Questions you may want to ask your counselor: "Are you still in love with your spouse? Is your spouse still in love with you? Do you feel the same chemistry in your marriage that you felt originally?"

If a counselor does not experienced the feeling of love in a marriage that goes beyond two years, he or she is in no position to teach you how to create a permanent love relationship. The reason I am so convinced that love can be permanent is that Joyce and I have had that experience ourselves for over 42 years. Otherwise, we too might be tempted to conclude that it was impossible. And I've witnessed a recovery of passion in literally thousands of couples. I know what it takes -- 15 hours of undivided attention where you meet each other's needs for affection, intimate conversation, recreational companionship, and sexual fulfillment. As you know, there are some other considerations as well. But that one factor, the meeting of intimate emotional needs, is so important that once you get that part figured out, you will be well on your way toward marital recovery."

Well, my MC is the principal therapist for her organisation and according to their website, she has over 17 years of experience working with married, divorced, widowed couples and constantly had been invited to give lectures and speech in places. She was recommended by one of my friend who went to the same organisation (with another therapist) so I just assumed she should be good.

But anyway, I wrote her an email today. Telling her about my reactions after the initial session and asking her if she felt I need to come in for a 1 to 1 session. I also asked her about her definition of an A and that if she will eventually get to the root of our problems (she asked us to temporarily not to think of the past and work on the assignment first). I guess since we only had 1 session with her, it might be too early to tell what she will try to do. But at least I do know that she is a Catholic and that to her 'a sin in the mind is also a sin'. So I guess that means she regards EA as A as well. The only bad thing is that she is not familar with MB and she had actually asked me to stop snooping and give back the 'space' to my WH. Think my WH was thrilled to hear that.

I must say after the first session, it really changes my WH and that is THE good news. He started sleeping closer to me again (he used to sleep at far end of the bed and refuse to phyiscally touch me in any way, even if it means sleeping close and touching each other's arms for example) and even hugged me while we sleep sometimes. He also started volunteering the information of what are his plans for the evenings (he used to tell me 'if I'm home, I'm home. If I'm not, then I am just somewhere else, don't ask, don't probe). He also started holding my hands as we walked and started talking to me in a softer, not so harsh or impatient tone. So I think for the next session, I will keep out the bad (since I told her about it in the email already) and concentrate on the good.

I am still thinking of 'nice things' to do for him. Any ideas? Right now, I can only think of stopping all those LB behavoir such as not crying in front of him (even when I felt really miserable for the past few days), not asking him where he was and what he was doing etc. I did start complimenting him about how nice of him to make me breakfast, how I think he will do well in his new job etc. Other than that, I do not want to go overboard and start caring too much in case he felt suffocated again.

Let's hope for the best with the counselor. Your husband is slowly making some effort and changes. That is good.

Now you can make any changes you need to make. Think back before the EA and try to remember anything that he complained about. Change those things.

Also try to meet the emotional needs he will let you meet. Sex and admiration are usually toward the top for men.

Dear jcool,

I hope everything will work out for you and your H. I will pray for that.

Take care,
Suzet

Thank you all out there who guided me through the darkest and most painful period of my life. I truly appreciate the help and prayers that I am getting.

The past 2 weeks had been unbelievable. WH made a complete change and was once again the man that I married. But I learned from MB that I should not be too happy too early. But at least I can feel some motivation now to work on the M.

I've emailed the MC and she said she was sorry that I went away feeling the way I felt. But she said it was normal sometimes for people to feel that way after dragging the past out all over again. I will see how the next session goes and keep you guys posted.

I'm so happy to hear things are going well. Don't be surprised if there are some bumps on the recovery road. That is very common, but stick with us and we will help you through those too. I'm glad you have a good counselor.

Hi Believer, talking about bumps on the road... I thought the next post I post here would be one bearing good news again. But I think I just hit the 'down' side of the roller coaster ride.

2 weeks after the 1st MC session was great. WH really put in effort to work on M. Tried to show more concern for me and tried to be more transparent by voluntering information of his whereabouts without having me to ask. He even took me to the place where he proposed to me and we spent a nice, warm evening watching the sun set and holding close to each other. Really thought he came back. 2nd session with MC was ok too. The counsellor tried to get us to work on communication.

But today, WH was suddenly very moody again. Especially after he sent me off to meet my sis for dinner. I tried to sms him during dinner but got a 1 word reply. I knew something was wrong. When I went home, he continued sulking. I tried to get him to talk but he refused initially. Then finally, he told me he felt very lonely. Now, he only spends time with his religious group or with me. While I 'party' away with colleagues, friends and family (sister mainly). He misses his old life when he has more friends. But he realise that after he married me, his world got smaller and smaller and now, after that 'incident' in the office, his former colleagues didn't want to meet him for dinner or chit chat anymore. Also he said he could not trust me anymore too. He do not know by telling me things, will I turn it against him and make him lost more friends, like the OW, I made him lost a special friend.

I am simply very sad that after all these while, he is still thinking of her and wanted to contact her. Yes, I know, this is typical of WS. But I was getting a little hopeful after seeing the change in him after the MC. But things seems to slide back again... I cried again, though I keep telling myself not to, but I simply cannot control the despair that I felt. I always thought that when I married my husband, I am THAT special one in his life. But now, apparently, I am not.

jcool,

He's trying to place blame on you, more fog talk.

It's not YOUR fault he lost all he did, it's consequenses of HIS actions, IOW his own fault.

He won't get anywhere until he owns his choices and stops placing blame.

LC

He simply refuse to admit that what he lost is a result of HIS actions. And he started dragging out little things in the past (both before and after the A) about what a scheming, petty, selfish person I was. We had a horrible argument that night. In fact we almost argued through the night till about 4am in the morning. I keep asking him to respect my boundaries and he would say yes, he will keep to it by behaving appropriately towards other female from now on. BUT can he have the OW as a FRIEND back. I told him no. I wanted NC for life. Then we would start arguing all over again.

This is so painful and I am so tired now. I do not want to ride this roller coaster anymore.

Well, you need to be spending 15 hours a week doing fun things with him. Are you doing that?

Also I would not stay up arguing till all hours of the night. When he starts babbling, just let him know that you know he is hurting, but no contact is a must.

We tried spending as much time as possible together after the 1st counselling session. And I also tried to start going out with my friends again after 'hiding' in pain for the past 1-2 months. But that became a point for his acussation during the argument because he said I made him lose all his friends and yet I have such an 'interesting' life again. ALL his ex-colleagues avoided meeting up with him because they were afraid that they get drawn into the gossips. But I knew for a fact that that wasn't true. He did meet up with 1 or 2 of them for lunch during his 2 weeks stay at home before he start his new job. I also know that he MSN 2-3 of them on a daily basis too. So, his meaning of ALL actually just meant one person - the OW. Now, if he is not meeting his religious group people, he will spend the time with me. He felt terribly lonely. In the heat of our argument, he even grabbed my face and 'thanked' me for making him such a lonely man and helped him lose his one and only special friend (the OW).

I told him NC is a must. But he accused me of eating back my words. He said I promised him that he can have contact again after 1 month. I seriously don't remember that. And I said no. But he keep saying yes, I said it, I said it. And he should know better that I will break my promise. The worse part is that he is actually counting down to the 1 month deadline. He told me another 2 more days and the NC promise will be lifted. This is so wishful thinking on one side! I cannot believe my ears when he said that. I told him fine, if he wants the contact back, he can go ahead. I will just chose not to be married to him. Then he said I threatened him, black mailed him. Why can't I just trust that he just want a FRIEND. I don't know how to reverse babble on that one.

But he knows that he still will not get the OW back even as a friend because she does not want to come between us. The only way is to get me to talk to her and gave her my 'blessings' to their friendship. I felt very used after hearing that because I felt that now the only reason why he promised to work on the M is because he wants me to help him get the OW back! What does he think I am? Maybe I should go into plan D right away. It is so tempting now. To end everything and to give up on this horrible man.

WH continued his black mood and refused to talk to me. Said he wanted to wait till the next MC session. Mean time, leave him alone and expect him to be his bad mood.

He told me he need to find out the truth from me. I asked his truth about what but he refused to elaborate. He said this truth will 'affect his ego, his pride and the way he sees me'.

But the session is still another 10 days from now... I don't know if I can survive that. Pros out there, what should I do? I will still go out with my friends but going home to face him is becoming such a dread. Help!

Continue on Plan A. I would NOT go out with friends right now, because he is supposed to be going through withdrawal. Invite your husband to do fun things with you.

I don't know what "truth" he is talking about, probably just more babble. He probably DOES feel like you have friends and he has lost his. Do the best Plan A that you can manage.

Now I know what started his black mood. Apparently one of his ex-colleagues told him that the OW has been telling others that he (my WH) had lied to her. Don't know why she did that, she doesn't strike me as a gossipy person. But maybe because she didn't want to be labeled as a 'home-breaker'. So the truth that he wants to know from me is what have I told her. He knew I called her once after the final NC was initiated by the OW. He wanted to know what I told her specifically that made her said that. Funny thing is he does not feel that he had lied to her. What fog... I wanted to say 'Duh... you told me that you will not go pick her from work anymore but you continue to do that every single day and you told her that I approved of it. That is not lying???' But I held my tongue. I told him before what I told her but he did not believe me anyway. He said yes, that is why he wanted to call her and ask and check out my story. Then I knew it. It was his excuse of wanting to contact her again.

He doesn't even want to be with me, let alone doing 'fun' things with me.

I felt very tempted to call OW and asked her if she will come out and talk things over face to face with my WH. But it probably will not serve no purpose. It'll probably set my WH back to day 0 of withdrawal again. But I feel so much anger right now. His sense of entitlement, his sense of self righteousness.

It's been 1 month after my Plan A. Too early for Plan B?

WH called our MC and arranged a session for himself and the OW!! Said he BADLY needed the truth and need to ask her to find out. But she will not answer his call. So he called her office direct line which does not have a caller ID. He begged her to meet him and tell him the truth. She refused. That is why he came up with this idea of talking in front of our MC. She agreed to go only if he gets my consent.

So WH came home today and apologize for arranging all these before consulting with me. But he assures me that if I do not want it, he will not have it. But he BADLY needed it and hope that I can allow him to do it. And he needs me to tell the OW that I allowed them to go to see our MC to talk things out. He said if I don't called the OW, she will not go. So please. Let him and the OW to talk it out. Then he'll have his peace.

What should I do? Why is it that which ever way I turn is so hopeless?

Well now, that's a new one - the OW and WH going to the married couple's marriage counselor!!!!!!!

I would not consent, and I would get ready for Plan B. Are you financially able to make it WITHOUT him?

I'm moving into Plan B. Today. I will be able to make it without him. I'll be temporary staying at a friend's place till I find something permanent. Don't know if I should leave him a letter or I should just leave. I felt so tired now. I have no more love for this alien being that I do not know anymore.

You need to take your time going into Plan B. You need to write a Plan B letter, and post it here. Also, you should not be the one to move out - he should. But first I would let him know that it is NOT okay for him to go with the OW to the MC.

Believer, you're right. I should not rush. I will work on my letter first.

I have to be the one to move because he won't leave. I ask him before and he said this is his house too why should he.

I told him to go see the MC alone first. If she thinks that by bringing in the OW will help our M, then the 3 of us should go together. If he wants the 'truth', then what better way to get it from BOTH horses' mouth? I doubt the MC will ask to bring in the OW because what good will it do? But maybe if he insisted saying that this will help out his mind at rest etc, at least I felt that all 3 of us should be there.

I am also very angry at the OW. She promised NC but she broke it. When my WH asked/begged her to meet up to tell him the 'truth', she should just say no. Instead, by asking my WH to come get consent from me, she is basically trying to get us to fight again. She should know that.

Here's my plan B letter. Please help.

Dear H,

This is a difficult letter for me to write, one that I have hoped the day for me to give it to you will never come. I have written this letter with the true love that only a wife can have for a husband. Please read every word I have written, for it is from the heart.

I want you to know that I love you! I know that you will always reside in my heart since I do have a great love for you after all we’ve gone through.
The past 3 months have been a difficult passage of time for me, the most emotionally traumatic in my life. We seemed to start recovery in the beginning, only to slip and fail again. We have somehow misplaced our foundation of trust and respect. Now, my anger and bitterness are too great for me to handle. I am so sad and so miserable right now and I truly need to get a grip. That is why we must separate.
I am going to take this time apart to try and understand my part in all this as well as try to get rid of my negativity and constant dwelling on the past. I need to let go, release myself of the burden and forgive – forgive myself and you – for my sake! I want to do whatever I can to put our marriage back together in a mutually satisfying way.
When you find yourself ready and willing to truly and fully commit to our marriage, willing to work on a plan for our recovery, and continue our counseling, I will be ready and willing to discuss our future. Until then, I will be having no communication with you. This is not to punish you; it is to protect my feelings for you and our chances at reconciliation. If we continue as we are now, there would be nothing left.

Love you always,
W

That's a good letter. I would add something about no contact with the other woman ever again for any reason as a condition of recovery.

If it were me, I wouldn't go to MC with the OW and my husband. She has no place in your marriage or counseling to save your marriage.

Everything is too late now. WH packed his bags and left.

I guess I didn't do a good Plan A at all. LB all the way... I only managed to find strength to hold on during his initial stage of withdrawal. After when he went for the counselling and things seems to improve, I guess I let my hopes got too high. That is why I reacted so strongly to his request/excuse to see the OW. I felt the whole betrayal thing started again and I do not want to go through the entire process again. I am so scared of his dark moods and sarcastic remarks. I am so scared of his indifference to me. I cannot take this any longer and I tried to reason with him not realising that this is LB too. Now I lost him...

WH didn't leave after all. After we both cooled down, he called and asked if we can wait till the MC session before we do something that we both regret in the future. I said ok. So all was quiet (not exactly peaceful, but quiet) for a while. On Monday, he went for his session alone, the session that he booked originally for himself and the OW. 2 days later, we went to see the counsellor together. She explained to us that she wouldn't agreed to seeing the OW because it will not help our M at all. If she do so, she'll become the judge or even the facilitator and this is not going to help our M. Actually, that really put my mind at rest. That shows me that she knows what she is doing and I don't have to worry about being trapped in a situation where my WH and her will 'gang up' against me (for example to lift the NC). She set certain ground rules (such as making sure we both understand why she would not see the OW for us, she will not help us keep secrets from each other etc) and then asked my WH to wait outside while she listens to my side of the story. I told her and she said it was exactly what my WH had said 2 days ago. The root of our problems is that we have very very different value systems. I tend to see things black and white while my WH has a lot of tones of grey. I believe that an EA is an A but my WH believes that only when it get physical, then it is an A. So I think he betrayed me but he doesn't think so. So I expect him to feel remorse but he doesn't see the point. So I reacted in a certain way and he doesn't understand what the fuss is this all about. So we are in a dead lock.

In the end, she sent us home with the assignment to write down our boundaries. She warned us that the next session is going to be a 'make it or break it' session. Because we could look at each other's boundaries and feels that (a) it's not too bad, I can deal with that or (b) forget it, this is like a prison, I am not going to agree to the terms. I don't know how my WH feels about this but I am simply glad to finally put the terms on the table and discussed about it. The last time I drew my boundaries, my husband said yes to this and that but the rest he needs to think about it. But he never came back with the answer. And soon after, we started MC and the matter was sort of put on hold while we try to work on the M by making each other feel better first.

So I need help. Please. Help me list down the boundaries. I am going to put down the POJA and the boundaries about inappropriate behavioir towards other female. What else should I include?

I have been struggling through the whole Plan A process and I think my main problem is that I cannot come to terms with WH's fog. I know that MB has clearly stated the situation but it is still so heart-breaking to see and live with this alien being who used to be my husband.

He recently tells me that he harbour the hope of being friends with the OW again eventhough he knows it is not possible right now. But he will miss her and keep her in his heart till the day he forgot to breathe. Not that he is in love with her but that he misses the time with her when they are good friends, when they can talk so freely and he enjoyed her company as a friend. I was simply too hurt for any words. I know that this is what MB calls fog talk. But it doesn't lessen the pain that I am feeling. I felt him drifting away from me day after day. Now we could hardly hold a 5 minute conversation meaningfully. I don't get my needs met and I keep LB'ing his love bank.

I really don't know if he will comes out from the fog at all since he never agrees to the NC in the first place. He will, like he said, hang on to the hope that one day the OW will lift the NC and they can be friends again. And I will 'grow up' enough to see that it is just pure friendship. I felt so much despair and hopelessness that I do not know how to handle. The situation seems to get worse. I know I have to get my act together and ignore his fog talk and carry out a good Plan A.

But all these is so hard... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

We went to see the MC today. WH was expecting a whole long list of do's & dont's from me. But I didn't do that. Finally, after a few days of reflecting and being true to my feelings, I realise that I did not apply what MB and the people who answered to my posts had taught me. I said I will do a Plan A but I probably do it for like 2 weeks. Then, the resentful and bitter me took over and did not want to see the futile efforts in trying to argue to a foggy WH. I keep thinking by forcing my pain and hurt and 'you betrayed me, you betrayed me, you betrayed me' down his throat, he'll finally come to his senses one day. But he doesn't. In fact, the situation just got worse and worse.

And I felt so lost. I don't know what to do next. And I wasn't getting any reply from this forum. I guess maybe because I am in a fog too and many simply chose to remain silent since whatever advice they posted, I am not letting them get into my head.

So, yesterday, while preparing for the MC session today. I asked myself. Do I want to move into a Plan B now. Seems like an easy way out. But what 'good memories' did I leave my WH with that will make him want to work on the M again? I don't know what happened but it just hit me. What Plan A? What did I do for Plan A? NOTHING. Instead I did all the things that others have adviced me not to. I reacted to his fog talk, I argue with him all the time, I reacted so strongly to every thing that he told me that he decide to tell me nothing no more. What kind of Plan A is that?

So I decided. I decided that I will do a REAL Plan A this time. I will not give in to my bitter, resentful self and allow them to take over my reactions. I decide to stop reacting to his fog talk and just show him all the love that I am capable of giving. So instead of showing the list of do's and dont's, I just told WH in front of the counsellor that this is what I will do. The boundaries are for me and me alone. I cannot change nor manipulate him to remain faithful to me. But I can chose not to be married to one. And the funny thing is, as I laid down my 'weapons', so did my WH.

I don't know where this will take us. But I will take one day at a time now.

Well, pick a plan and stick to it. You really DO need to attempt a solid Plan A, WITHOUT any expectations. We all know how difficult it is. But you must give him a good taste of what a good, fun wife you can be, a very attractive alternative to the OW.

It may help to think of him as being like a crazy person - in the fog. That way you won't take it so personally.

Today is one of those really bad days for me. It started with yesterday actually. WH and I decided to go for a photo exhibition together, something we always used to do in the past. We met some old friends, talked a bit and went home. I felt strangely depressed. Maybe because it was not the same anymore. We may be doing the things that we used to enjoy but we no longer enjoyed it anymore. The relationship now is very strained. So, not surprisely, I had a hard time falling asleep last night. Stayed awake till 5am in the morning. Slept for 2 hours and had to wake up for work again. To make things worse, it started raining heavily. It was a bit of a trigger for me because the last time it rained so heavily, WH woke up extra early so that he could give the OW a ride (before the EA was exposed) and that subsequently turned into a ride everyday, not just rainy days. So as I was fighting the weather to get to work myself and getting wet all over, I can't help but wished my WH will do the same for me. Wake up early to give me a ride. But I know he wouldn't. Not in his current state of mind. How long more do I have to hang on? I really need a hug today.

[color:"blue"]jcool
Member


Re: Musings From Mark. It Ain't Magic, but Maybe Science
#3302923 - 09/10/07 03:37 AM

Mark, thanks very much for the useful links and 'stories'. It is indeed very very helpful. I have many of them printed out so that I can keep reading them over and over again.

Can I ask you some questions? My WH had the NC 'forced' on him by the OW. So he keep wanting to get the 'friendship' back and wanted me to 'come to my senses' one day to 'see the truth' and allow the friendship to go on again. I did told him that NC is for life. But he simply refused to listen. He said I am just blinded by my jealousy now so I cannot see it properly. I will be able to understand in due time. So my question is this: When the NC is forced on the WS, do they ever come out of their fog since they never wanted to end the A in the first place and thus keep harbouring the hope of getting back with the OP again? How do I deal with a WS like this? He almost hated me for breaking up the friendship and has caught me snooping and thus is not trusting me anymore because he said whatever information he told me, he doesn't know how I will use it against him. He had started seeing a MC with me but things are still roller coasting... How do we ever get the trust back in the relationship?[/color]

I've copied and pasted your questions from my "Musings" thread over here so that your story remains more or less together for future reference.


The last question is easiest to answer and so I will begin there. Simply put, you start to trust again when you are given a reason to trust. Until he is trustworthy, you cannot trust him and only by a process of him becoming more transparent and you being able to verify everything independently will he ever be able to show himself to be a person you can trust once more.

The whole process is a roller coaster. Expect it! You will have good days, even great days and those will be followed by days you'll think slow death would be easier to deal with. You will switch from great hope to wanting to crawl under a rock and die and back again so often your head will hurt from the whiplash..I repeat..EXPECT IT!

This is not something out of the blue but merely part of the process. You need to know it's going to happen like this and will for some time to come. It begins to lessen as time goes on, but even after a year or more you could still trigger and have a really bad day just over something trivial that you never even gave a second thought to before.

The best way to break through the fog is for him to maintain NC for long enough to get over it. In the mean time, you need to be doing all that you can to show him that you are the better choice any way. Plan A isn't about fits and starts and giving up only to begin again, but about really hard work of putting every need and expectation of your own aside while doing all you can to show him you are able to be the best wife possible.

The real problem is that you need to be sure you are willing to make the changes needed over time for it to be effective. If you do something that attracts him back and then pull it away, he will NOT believe your changes any more than you can believe his.


Figure out what it is that he requires as to ENs and meet those needs to the best of your ability and plan on doing so forever...

As for him not trusting you...IGNORE IT! This is true WS babble.

In your post above this one you asked how long you have to hang on. The answer is as simple as deciding when you have had all you can take.

When you are nearing your end and have very little love left for him, it is time to go to Plan B. But that is NOT the same as giving up but the next step of a process that started with Plan A. So for Plan B to work for saving your marriage it needs to follow a brief and amazing Plan A. His last memory of you has to be how great you were and how much he enjoyed being around you. If his memories are of fighting about OW and arguing about his actions then Plan B is really the beginning of Plan D.

In addition, Plan B must be PLANNED in advance so that you can get all your ducks in a row and have something you can execute. If you can suddenly severe ties with him after doing all of this stuff for him (Plan A) it will be shock to his fantasy. But if you shout at him and walk out, love busting as your final goodbye, there will be no need for Plan B since you will actually be firing the first shot of Plan D.

So you execute Plan A (without expecting anything from him for a while, not even results as to the fog lifting.) And while doing Plan A you plan what Plan B will look like for you. If you make progress in Plan A you keep going. If nothing is working in Plan A, you aren't doing a good Plan A or he has withdrawn from you so far he no longer cares about getting his ENs met by you.

Evaluate what you are doing and if nothing improves, you go into Plan B, remembering that Plan B is a last ditch effort to save your marriage. It is the last thing you can do, which is NOTHING more than you have already done. It is no longer about breaking through the fog or trying to get WS to change but simply about saving your own sanity and preserving the last ounce of your love for him so that IF he changes his mind and wants to return to you there will be enough left to build on. Dr Harley suggests waiting two years in Plan B because that is about as long as most affairs last.

But in your specific case, you probably need to do more work on Plan A right now, because he is not seeing OW (from what I gather) and is at least dialoguing with you. The trick now becomes one of not trying to force recovery to happen but of trying to do the best job you can of meeting his ENs, again...without expecting anything in return at first, and as unfair as it may be, help him get over the loss of OW.

Let me give you this and see if it helps...

The love between you and your husband is not, was not and never will be anything magical or destined by fate. It was, is and will be the result of being what each other wants and is attracted to over time. His fantasy love with OW is over. So too is your fantasy of what love with him was like. The choice you have to make is whether you can live without the fantasy part of it and rebuild what love is really all about or if you have to give up because the fantasy was all that mattered to you. You get to choose and you have to live with the choice you make.

Mark

(((jcool)))

Thanks! I was wondering what should I do so as not to mess up your post. I am not very tech savvy and thus have trouble figuring out how to add a link to my post so that I can just ask you to click and read rather than posting the questions in your thread.




But the thing is, he does not WANT to earn my trust back. He thinks he did nothing wrong and it was I who over-reacted. He told me, EA is not an A. I was the one who betrayed his trust because when he told me about his 'impulsive act' to hold the OW's hand that day, he did it out of honesty. He could have chosen not to tell me. And I 'rewarded' him by destroying his friendship with the OW and asking the NC for life. So he does not see that he has any fault in all these. During our MC, he only admitted that he understands that I did all these out of jealousy and thus he can TRY to forgive me for that. But he has trouble trusting me again because he does not know by chosing to be honest with me, how I will react and what he may stood to lose again. So now, he chose to be silent and not tell me anything.




That is sooooo true... And I felt better, knowing that IT IS 'NORMAL'. I know many had told me about this before. But reading it now, when I am at the stage of wanting to crawl under a rock and die, makes me feel not so lonely in my fight.




I know I'm being 'thick' here. But do they really get over it? Even if they never wanted it in the first place? I mean, right now, on our good days, I have this fear of him bringing up the topic of breaking the NC. The last time he did, we had a huge fight with him almost packing his bag and leave. So I don't know if coming out of the fog will also mean that he will see the damage he'll do if he break the NC and thus will not ask for it anymore. Or will he come out of the fog and still thinks that it is ok to keep the friendship.




Somehow by putting it this way, it brings it into perspective for me. I have always thought that Plan B is just walking away from the hurt to preserve the love I have for him. But I always thought more of it as a 'I had enough!' kinda of walk away. But like you said, that might be as well walking straight into a plan D. Preparing for Plan B, how it will look like for me... That sets me thinking...




Yes, I realise that too. I know my situation is not as bad since he is still around and that NC, no matter how it came by, did come by though he broke it just last week after calling the OW to ask her for the 'truth'. And at the very least, he is still willing to go MC with me. But it is just the uncertainty of how it will all turn out that is killing me. And the unknown time frame too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I know this sounds silly but it is so hard to not to be able to force recovery. How I wish I have a remote that goes 'poof!' and all is well (in fact better!). All this bearing down and waiting and doing all the best that you can is so.... hard. Sigh...




Mark, you really did hit me hard on this one, over the part that my love between my WH and I is not destined by fate. I guess why I felt so 'insecure' is also because I always had this idea of 'soulmate by fate'. Some will be lucky and meet theirs at the right time and become H&W. Some, the timing will be wrong and they cannot be together and thus they live the rest of their life in agony, unfulfilled. I always wanted to the 'the one' for my H but somehow I know I am not, maybe because we are so different and the love between us is never 'magical'. So I was always afraid that 'the one' will come by one day and my H will be gone. But what you said is true. There is no 'the one'. Not for me, not for my H. But more of 'being' or 'becoming' the one that each other wants.

I just hope that one day, my WH will open up a bit and let me communicate with him. Then at least I can talk about what his ENs are and how I can meet them and what are my LB for him etc. Now, the days are just filled with silence...

But thanks Mark. I really needed this.

Thanks SBGuy too, for the hug!

jcool,

To be sure I didn't get this wrong...

Does MC agree with your H that EAs are not a problem and in your case triggered jealousy and that is what the key issue is?

I hope that your MC can see the damage done by an emotional attachment to someone else while married and if not, it is time for a new MC.

What you need is someone to help you break the cycle of lies accusations and further lies. You also need someone who will stand up to him for you and say "Listen up dummy!..." so that he can understand what he has done and why it was hurtful to you and perhaps even why hurting you is bad in itself.

For your part you don't really have to identify his top love busters since all love busters have the consequence of depleting the LB$. As difficult as it sounds, eliminating all love busters will not only help your marriage but also your dealings with other people as well.

Probably the most dangerous of all love busters is angry outbursts because it is while angry that we are most likely to say hurtful things that we simply cannot take back after we've said them.

As for Plan A, B and D...

Plan A = Give
Plan B = Stop Giving (not the same as take)
Plan D = Take back

Plan A allows you to try to fill his LB$ so he knows what he has in you.

Plan B stops the madness and gives you rest, but also gives him a way to return to the marriage by meeting specific requirements. These are the things you need to spell out before going into Plan B mode and to tell him what you will need to rebuild the marriage, you must be able to identify them yourself.

Once Plan D has begun, assuming it has begun by a decision on your part, simply take what ever you can get and punish the infidel at will. Before you begin down this road YOU must be sure it is over and you have nothing left for him at all. Then you can be as ruthless as you want to be.

Mark

No, she didn't agree with my WH. But she didn't agree with me either. I think she tried not to 'take sides' for now and that worked for my WH because he responded quite well to the first MC session. The MC told us that our main problem is the differences in our value systems. But to work on that, we need to first try to restore the love. Then work on a proper way of communication, then work on the differences. It is then we can discuss issues like whether an EA is an A or not etc.

We were doing ok for the first part (restoring love) until my WH former colleagues (whom he kept in contact everyday) told him that the OW told others that my WH lied to her. That started his 'crusade' of wanting to find out the 'truth' but to me, it is really just an excuse to call the OW and to see her. I only remember that MB said that once NC is broken, the withdrawal will be set back to zero again so I reacted very strongly when he told me that he called the OW (already) and wanted to arrange to meet her. That ended up in a huge argument that almost pushed him to move out.



I wish I could find someone who would do that too because I had hoped very much he would see the hurt and pain I am going through instead of brushing it aside. But my WH is a very head strong man. He doesn't like to be told that he is wrong and he always like to be the one who is winning. I guess the counsellor see that in him and thus hasn't been pushing the fault down his throat like me.



Just to clarify, you mean I 'do' have to identify (not 'don't) his top love busters right? I know the importance of that but he is not communicating with me and thus I can only guess but will not know for sure. I do know (for now) he totally hates me snooping. Doesn't like me to act pitiful. Doesn't like me to 'restrict his freedom' by asking where he is going and when he is coming back etc. Doesn't like me to restrict the way he handles his friendship with other females. But the thing is, in cases like these, if I stop those LB behaviors such as snooping, asking him to act appropriately towards other females, then I am not sure if that will lead him through another round of EA again! What should I do?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

jcool,

My point was that you can strive to stop all love busters and have the bases covered without knowing specifically what his top LB is. If you stop all love busting you hit the most important and avoid even minor withdrawals from his LB$ as well.
And since all love busters are detrimental, avoiding all of them should be our goal any way.

ENs are a little more critical to figure out since you could spend all your time doing things that go unnoticed, whereas with love busters, NOT doing any of them is avoiding the critical ones as well.

Sounds to me like your MC is at least aware of Dr Harley's ideas. Restoring the love between you is Dr H's first goal, since everything else is a lost cause unless that happens along the way.

That is what Plan A is all about, rebuilding the love that has been lost.

I wish I knew what to tell you as to how to break through to him and make him see what he has done and is doing and that it is wrong...It has to come from him. He has to see it.

Mark

WH told me today that he will be going back to his former company to meet up with his former boss to finish up some business tomorrow. That means, he'll get to see the OW. I didn't know how to react so I just kept quiet. I do not want to jump up and say 'you're creating excuse to see her again!' because I know it would not help. But I am afraid that if I kept quiet, he will take it that silence means consent...

I'm pretty sure the OW will not initiate to talk to him. But he will try anyway since he hasn't find out the 'truth'. In addition, I believe just seeing her alone will set his 'withdrawal' counter back to zero again. Sigh... I am so not looking forward to going home tomorrow to face up to his moods and anger again...

Keep your cool. This is a test and you have to only watch. Watch his eyes. Don't say much. He is testing his own recovery.... dangerous for an Xws to do so but it was his choice.

So why did he have to go see his old boss? Did his old boss know of the A?

L.

Yes, his boss knew. That was why he moved the OW from originally sitting next to my WH to another cubicle. Not much help since it was an open office so WH still get to see her everyday then. Also, at least half of the people in the office were engaged in some form of A. So although they knew about the A, they did not try to stop it because they were guilty of it themselves. Worse, some of them even encouraged my WH and said that he can just 'fool around' but must remember to cover his tracks. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

My WH left the company not just because of the A. His old boss had been delaying the payment of his commission (my WH is a sales person) and WH had been talking about leaving the company for some time. Only thing is when the A started, the talk about leaving stopped. Anyway, when my WH tendered his resgination, the old boss conveniently went for a long holiday so WH could not get his commission paid. So he had to go back to his old company to sort it out with his old boss. But to me, it is just another excuse to see the OW since the boss has no intention of paying anyway (the delay had been more than 1 year)...

I guess you're right Orchid, I just have to hold and see. Anyway, there is nothing I can do anyway. I cannot stopped him from going back to his old office. I have no way of knowing if he stopped by and talked to the OW or not. Nor would I know what effect this meeting will have on him. Nevertheless, I promised myself that I will do a good Plan A. I will get through this...

We would all have liked to resolve the mess our marriage became right away. Unfortunately, that rarely happens. You need to stick with your plan and not expect anything. If you don't think you can do that, set a time in your mind. Tell yourself you will do it until Thanksgiving, or something like that. Then reassess on that day.

Today I went snooping on my WH's computer and found something that broke my heart, again. He used to keep pictures of the OW in a folder locked with a password. After he left the company, I asked if he could delete them away and not keep any copies anywhere. He said 'I have no choice right? Ok, I'll do it'. And for a while, the folder did dissappear. But today, I saw it again, hidden in some obscure folder, created on the 23 Aug 07! I know I should be expecting this and I shouldn't be surprised. But it still hurts to know that he has yet again broken his promise.

What do I do now? Do I just sit back and pretend I see nothing till the timeline I gave myself for Plan A is up? Or do I ask him about it? But then he will know that I knew the password to his computer.

Stay in Plan A, and don't reveal that you know his password. If you do, you have given up an important source of information.

Smile pleasantly, on with Plan A, and watch.

Thank you believer. Ok, taking deep breaths now... Stay in Plan A, stay in plan A, stay on plan A...

Today is an anger day. WH was quiet and sulking last night and I tried to cheer him up. He was able to respond for a while but soon, he lasped into his mood again. When I asked him what was wrong, he didn't want to tell me. When I tried to hold his hand, he shoved my hand away. I felt very hurt and couldn't help myself and I cried. LB I know, but I have been facing his rejection for the past few days that it is eating me up. He will walk ahead of me so that we need not hold hands or talk. He will only hug me if I asked him to. He almost shrink away if I tried to get near him.

Then today, he sms me to say he is sorry and he didn't mean to hurt me. And I lapsed into the mood of anger. He told me he doesn't want to talk or communicate with me because he doesn't know if I will use the information to 'back-stab' him (and make him lose the OW as a friend). He doesn't know how I would react to the information that he gave me and thus he prefer to say nothing. But I told him if he doesn't communicate with me, we will forever stay at ground zero and never move on.

And why am I the one who had to win his trust back? Doesn't he has to win my trust back too? Why do I have to be the one to put up with his swinging moods when he has no regards for my feelings? I am so frustrated but I have no way of venting the anger. I feel so so tempted to just move out but I know like Mark says, leaving like this is not going to help but more likely lead to D.

How do you guys and gals out there find the strength to do a Plan A?

You just force yourself. In your mind, you set a deadline, and tell yourself you will do it for X months. Then you do an excellent Plan A for that long. When the deadline is up, you reaccess the situation. If nothing seems to be changing, you start planning for Plan B.

I got the phone bills today. WH's phone bill is under the same account and I had a chance to look into the details today. And found more heart breaking details. I found that he tried calling the OW as early as 14 Aug, only 2 weeks after he left the company. He got clever this time and called her office line directly since she will not answer his call on her cell phone. This call lasted only about 2 minutes. But he called her again on the 16 Aug, for 6 minutes. Then again on the 22 Aug, for 10 minutes. As I looked back, that was the time he went crazy about finding out the 'truth' and wanted the OW to go to MC with him to talk about the 'truth'. That is not the only heart breaking news.

I mentioned some time ago that my WH, before he left his previous company, he seems to be looking for a 'replacement' for the OW and found another female colleague in the same old office that he took a lot of inappropriate pictures with. He kept in touch with this OW on a daily basis until now. I felt that he did this on purpose to show me that he can have 'pure and simple' friendship with other women. Though I have told him that I felt that the behaviour is inappropriate, he told me that I simply have to trust him. If he comes close to crossing the line this time, he will stop because he does not want to lose another friend like he did with the OW. But as I looked at the phone bills, I realised that they will call each other about 3-4 times a day (sometimes more), sms each other a dozen times a day. I tried snooping on his phone previously and had found the sms-es to be quite benign. But he found out and started deleting the sms-es and took his handphone with him wherever he goes so I didn't manage to do more snooping. Have they progressed to an EA already? What should I do now?

Go to plan B. R U ready for it?

Oh yea.... expose. There is no innocent R's when he is a WS on the prowl. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

L.

I am so ready for Plan B and I felt that I badly needed it. I can't take the constant 'surprises' though I have been told to expect it. I have my finances secured and even managed to find a small place to stay for the time being. But it is only a short term solution because the place belonged to one of my friends. If it really turns out to be a long term thing, I will suffer a little financially. But nothing beats the peace of mind I will get for getting away from him, from all these wayward behaviours.

The only thing I worried is that I do not do a good Plan A for a good time period. It has been barely a month and I once in a while still cry in front of him (a love buster for him) when I really could not help it. I also sometimes act very clingy (such as keep wanting him to stay beside me) when I felt super insecure when he refused to reassure me. I am afraid that if I go into Plan B now, I am starting the beginning of a Plan D actually because he will have very little good memories of me. But I am so emotionally drained that I do not know even if I tried to hang on, can I do a good Plan A. I am so lost now. Part of me want to just pack up and go and leave all these madness and pain behind. But part of me want to stay and try to work things out.

What if this is not 'fog' behaviour but his actual value systems? What if he thinks it is ok to have EAs all along, that it is just 'closer' friendship but not an A? How can I tell the difference between wayward behaviour and his actual value systems?

Time will provide clarity. In the meantime, you keep on a steady course. If he has any remorse or comes to his senses, you will know....not with fake recovery but with hard work, from his end. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

No need to worry, just make sure you stay focused. Expect the WS to try to throw you off course. Do you know how to react and reply when he does? Shall we practice? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

L.

[quote No need to worry, just make sure you stay focused. Expect the WS to try to throw you off course. Do you know how to react and reply when he does? Shall we practice? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> [/quote]


Yes yes, please. I've read about this reverse babble technique but there are a lot of questions or arguments that my WH put across to me that I don't know how to RB back. Can I ask you about them? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

1) I don't get rewarded for being honest with you when I told you about the A. Instead, I get punished, you made me lose a friend.

2) You are such a petty, selfish and paranoid person.

3) If I want to have an A, I could have had it with 101 women so many times already. The fact that I didn't (cos an EA is not an A to him) until now should tell you how faithful I am.

4) You wouldn't know the truth if I didn't tell you.

5) I don't feel safe telling you details of my day/friendship with other female.

6) You make my life miserable.

7) Can you stop calling that an A?

8) Can I not have female friends anymore?

9) Am I 'condemned' for life since you wanted NC FOR LIFE?

10) I harbour the hope that one day my friendship with the OW will resume again.

That's all I can think of now. I'm sure there are more. But later. Thanks for offering to 'practice' with me! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Orchid: I'll give you my RB responses, ok? Remember these are just my JMHO. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


RB (reverse babble) response: Hm... is that all you can see? More importantly, that's what you call a friend? You sure have lowered your standards.


RB (reverse babble) response: Yes, you are.


RB (reverse babble) response: Faithful? What dictionary have you been using? Let's go check your definition of faithful against others. (then call a few friends who use the earth dictionary - do this before you tell him to call).


RB (reverse babble) response: Ok, when are you going to tell me?


RB (reverse babble) response: You don't and that's what you call faithful? Hm....... does your boss know you are faithful like this? Hm...........


RB (reverse babble) response: Yes you do.



RB (reverse babble) response: No.


RB (reverse babble) response: You could if you used correct dictionary and showed by your actions you were faithful but for now, no.


RB (reverse babble) response: Please explain your definition of 'condemned'?



RB (reverse babble) response: Harbor sounds a bit like someone with criminal intent. Is that what you are?


Orchid: No problem.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Practice your responses ahead of time. I used the bathroom mirror and closed the windows so as not to worry the neighbors. LOL!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

take care,
L.

We had a horrible night of quarrel again. It started ok actually. WH had been his fog again and wanted to feed his addiction of seeing or calling the OW. But he knows she will not take his call. So his mood swing from sometimes ok to sometimes very dark (most of the time actually). He told me he felt something missing in his life. He don't know what is it and he felt very empty. He said he has very low self esteem now, in fact, crushed because he felt he is 'sentenced for life' and nobody wants to trust that he can have a 'pure and simple' friendship

I encouraged him to work on the M. I said that if we get our M back to together and show others that in fact we are closer than before, people will respect him for 'toughing' it out and make the right choice. He said he felt lost and don't know how to revive our M. So I told him about the 4 rules to martial recovery. I asked him since we are both so lost at what to do, why don't we give it a try. Maybe it'll work? If not, what have we got to lose? He seemed positive for a while, agreeing to give it a try. But of course, I am so stupid to believe that he really wanted to work on the M. The next thing he did was to ask, ok, if I promise to give this a try, will you try and help me by gaining my friendship back with the OW?

He said he wanted to his old life back. The life where he enjoyed my company as a wife, the friendship of the OW and another female friend who broke the friendship with him because of his EA with the OW (because she cannot stand being around a man who had A). So he told me his plan. He asked me to help him get back these 2 friendships. He said, out of respect for me, he will not go and see the OW. But he wanted me to come along and try and 'undo the damage'. He wants to explain to her why he lied to her and lied to me. He wanted her to forgive him him and wanted me to help explain things to her too because she will not listen to him. He said, after this, I will come back to you and work on the M.

I simply couldn't belive my ears and the extent of his fog and his sense of entitlement. I should have walked away and stopped the argument. But I was really boiling inside. I asked him shouldn't the sequence be the other way round? We worked on the M first? He said he can't wait. Unless I can give him a deadline like 1-3 months and after that, no matter where we are in our M, I will help him get the friendship back. I exploded. Of course, more exchange of hurtful words and he threatened with more As if I try stopping him to get back the friendship.

Can I go into Plan B now? I am so tired...

Refresh my memory. How long has he had no contact with the OW?

IMHO, he is babbling and doing so quite badly. Time for plan B. R U ready?

How stupid of him to expect you to help him get the A going. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> Arrrgh........ <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

L.

His last day of work in his former office was 20 Jul. But the OW stopped talking to him about 3 weeks earlier. He tried to call her on the 14 Aug and had a 6-10 mins talk both on 16 Aug and 20 Aug. So the first NC period was about 3 weeks before he broke it. I don't know if he tried calling her again after that because he now guards his hp day and night so I'll have to wait for the new phone bill next month to find out. If after the 20 Aug there was NC, then it should about 1 month by now.

I sincerely hope that he is really babbling and not coming from the 'real' him. He told me he needed closure. He cannot stand knowing that someone thinks badly of him. He said that things happened so fast between the OW and I that after that phone call, the OW just dropped him like a hot potato and avoided him and told other people that he lied to her. He needed to know why she said that and wanted to undo that damage. Our counsellor asked him did he really just wanted closure (and thus say sorry, ask for forgiveness and then never see her again) or did he wanted to continue the friendship after that. He said he hoped for the latter ( <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />) but if he is given the chance to explain and she still do not accept his friendship, then he will accept the outcome of not seeing her again. But right now, I am depriving him of a chance to 'heal'. And because of that, he cannot work on the M. I felt soooooo frustrated.

The whole point is he doesn't think that this is an A. Thus I am the one in the wrong. I over-reacted due to jealousy or insecurity and went to tell the OW all sorts of nonsense to make him lose her as a friend. I am really so tired of all these arguing. It's like talking to a wall all the time.

Am I ready for Plan B? I would like to think so. At least I felt very strongly that I am so tired so all these last night and for the first time, I did not cry during the argument. The only thing is that I will have to be the one moving out because he will not move. I have got my finances covered, my plan B letter ready and found a friend's house to stay for at least 2-3 months. Am I emotionally ready? I would hope so but I guess I wouldn't know for sure until I am at that stage.

He is babbling because no one in their right mind would throw away a family and an M for a 'friendship' that wasn't an A. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> No logic.

So he wants his 'friendship'? Ask him at what cost is he willing to sell his family and M for that friendship? Then say, if his sister or brother abandoned their families for a stranger what would he think of them? Use someone he knows has integrity.

L.

So I should stand firm on the NC right? In my anger, sometimes I am tempted to say 'Ok, go ahead, contact her and ask/tell her all that you want, then get your closure and be done with it!'. But I know once I let go, all the effort will be wasted.

I did ask him if this 'friendship' is worth the price of our M. Guess what he says. 'It doesn't have too. We can all be friends if you like. In fact, I was hoping it will be that way. But if you insisted that it has to be mutually exclusive, I cannot do anything.' As if I am asking for something so unreasonable.

Orchid: I did. I told the WS to go to the OW because by that time, they deserved each other and he didn't deserve us.

Guess what? Basic WS rules.... 'never do what a BS tells you to, even if it sounds good for the A'. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

With that fact... it tore a big one in the A. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Orchid: Then let him know he must still be a WS because he is babbling again. Let him know you and your family don't associate with tramps or OWs. LOL!!! I said that to mine because at one point he had the nerve to tell me that the OW is a lot like me. HA!!! Couldn't have been farther from the truth. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

L.

Wayward's thinking and reasoning is so far from reality, it's unbelievable! I was just upset over this ridiculous email my WH sent, then I come here and feel comforted. I'M not the one going crazy. WE'RE not the ones going crazy. Our WS have lost their minds.

How your husband could think you'd all be friends would be almost laughable, if it wasn't so sad and heartbreaking. It is so frustrating dealing w/ that. And overwhelming at times. Thank God for plan B.

Orchid and sl77, thanks for sharing your experience and thoughts with me. Sometimes, when it is the WS that we faced all the time, we lose perspective. At least I lose perspective, on a daily basis. That is why I keep coming to this forum, to seek for advice, comfort and most importantly, to vent.

My WH doesn't think that he is wayward at all. So it is very frustating to talk to him. When I told him about the typical wayward behaviours such as suffering from withdrawal after NC, babbling, sense of entitlement etc, he simply refused to believe them and let alone work on them. For example, he doesn't believe that he is in withdrawal and thus he cannot explain the feeling of lost he felt. He said he knew something was missing in his life, but he doesn't know what is it and thus cannot go about making it better. He keeps wallowing in self pity and keeps feeling depressed. So he doesn't believe it when I told him that the withdrawal symptoms will go off after a while, after sufficient NC had been maintained. He also doesn't believe that an NC is necessary for affair-proofing the M since it was never an A to begin with in his dictionary. How can you work with someone on a problem who doesn't believe there was one to begin with.

So sl77, to him, having me becoming friends with his friends is not ridiculous. And I agree, IF SHE WAS NOT THE OW. Sigh... But he just don't get it...

Right now, after the MC session yesterday, I told myself that I will give him another 2 weeks. The counsellor managed to convice him (for the 2nd time) to work on the M first. He actually went there with the hope that the counsellor will convince ME to agree for him to contact the OW. How blind the WS can become.

Anyway, I can see that now he is forcing himself to do it, to be nice to me, to show me that he is working on the M. I know he'd rather be contacting the OW at this point. I used to feel very hurt seeing him having to force himself to be nice to me. Now, I am not bothered as much. I don't know why. Maybe because I am ready for Plan B and I gave myself a deadline.

Good job, jcool. Only you can figure out when you are ready for Plan B. But it is vital to do an excellent Plan A first.

On the other hand, if you feel close to losing all your love for your husband, then go to Plan B.

Yes believer, thanks for reminding me on that. A good Plan A. That was the only reason why I had tried to hang on for another 2 weeks. I didn't want to look back (if I ended up single again) in the future and regretted not putting in my best effort for the M.

But I struggled so very hard. It is hard not to react to him giving me the slient and moody treatment when he will talk and joke and laugh with a friend who just called. Then when he puts down the phone, he changes back to the moody man again. If it was not so painful to watch, I actually would suggest that he auditioned for an actor. His expression can really change from one mimute to the other. He is so good at it.

I think I NEEDED to go for Plan B rather than wanted it. If I can, I would rather hang on a little longer, say another 1-2 months. But I find myself increasingly frustrated by WH and his wayward behaviour. I find myself increasingly feeling the anger and resentment. I wanted to do a good, solid Plan A but sometimes, I can't help but wanting to verbally fight back. And that is not good. Instead of depositing more love units, I actually withdraw from it. And he keeps withdrawing love units from my bank too. I am afraid that if I do not go into Plan B now, I may eventually hate him. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I previously drafted a Plan B letter and now as I re-read it, I realised I didn't put in the conditions for recovery explictly. I need some advice. What are some of the conditions you will put in a Plan B letter. I know I will put in the NC with the OW for life as one. Continue counselling as one. No more lies as one. What else will be a good idea to include?

Sometimes I'll wake up and feel that I am ok. I am getting stronger and I am a better at controlling my emotions. But today, I woke up finding myself dreading Plan B. What would I do without him? I'll be so lonely that I can just die. Why can't one just take their own lifes? If this life is so painful, why do I have to keep living it?

I want to just not feel pain or anger or hurt or jealousy or cheap or whatever anymore. Is that too much to ask?

Now WH guards everything and had most of his things done in the office computer so I can't snoop on a lot of things. So I have no way to know for sure (until the end of the month if I managed to intercept the phone bills) if he contacted the OW or not or if he has been calling and texting the new OW on an inappropriate frequency.

I'm still trying to do a Plan A till next week. But I've read about some posts here saying you go into Plan B if the A doesn't stop. But what if the A stopped but WH is unwilling to work on the M with me? What if he just shuts himself off and we go through our daily lifes like housemates? Do I stay on try to work on Plan A or proceed to Plan B?

Go into plan B if the following criterias are met:

1. Your mind and heart are in sync. This is a requirement because plan B is a strong step forward away from the A.

2. You are done with your plan A improvements.

3. You have identified your personal and M boundaries.

4. You are ready to implement those boundaries. They are solid boundaries (not subject to change).

5. Mastered reverse babble and other techniques that put you back in control....over you.

With the above, you won't need to snoop. You w/b in a better and more solid position to handle whatever the WS throws your way.

You will find the WS actually depends on sucking the life out of you and with a good plan B, you have plugged up that lifeline.

In reality, you don't want the WS to survive. Nope.... you want the WS to wither and your real spouse to escape.

By NOT enabling the A, you are doing your part in killing the A.

JMHO,
L.

Had a bad agrument again last night. I don't know why eventhough I keep telling myself to let go and ignore his wayward behaviour, I just can't do it. The scenes of his anger outburst and the things that he said will just keep repeating themselves in my mind.

Whole thing started with him throwing my stack of MB books into my study room. I purposely left it in the living room so that he MAY want to pick up one and read (he agreed to read HNHN but never did). Then followed by a couple of things he did that made me felt upset. Such as changing his computer screen everytime I stepped into his study room, or looking up from his computer and gave me that irritated look as if I am disturbing him. Or asking me 'what is wrong with you?' instead of hugging me when I cried. Then at night, when we were shopping for a new hand phone, I accidentally found that he installed a new key lock phone to his hp that requires a password to unlock. I stopped snooping on his hp for a while now because I made that promise during the MC session. But what do I get in return? More walls, more guards. I felt really discouraged so I kept quiet for a while. But I finally could not stand it and ask him. He said he needed to 'feel secure'. That's why he install that software. We then got into the 'who is the first one to cause the lost of trust in the first place' argument. He said it was my snooping and my calling the OW and caused him to lose her as a friend that started it. I said that it was the EA that started it. So in the fit of anger, I packed my bags and left. I couldn't take it anymore.

But as I moved into the temp place. I was so full of regret that I do not know what to do. And I hate myself for being so weak and missing him already. What should I do now? Treat it as a Plan B and keep quiet or try to get him back?

He said it was my snooping and my calling the OW and caused him to lose her as a friend that started it. I said that it was the EA that started it. So in the fit of anger, I packed my bags and left. I couldn't take it anymore.

Has the EA ended? His response is typical "fog" talk. Yeah you snoop...HE lost your trust,HE was dishonest.

But as I moved into the temp place. I was so full of regret that I do not know what to do. And I hate myself for being so weak and missing him already. What should I do now? Treat it as a Plan B and keep quiet or try to get him back?

jcool, I'm sorry this happened to you. What is your status today? Are you still 'out' or what? Give us an update.

Jcool where are you?

Yes, the EA ended. I am pretty sure of that. At least I knew from the last time I contacted the OW, she was totally pissed at both of us for 'messing' up her life. She asked me to control my husband and not pester her anymore (my WH had tried to call her and tried to 'win' her back as a friend) but I told her if I can control him, the EA wouldn't have started. My WH knew that the OW was really pissed and by pushing further for the renewal of friendship, he is going to push her further away. So he stopped contacting her. For now. I'm KNOW in my heart that he is waiting around for the chance to get back to her. I only hoped that with enough time for NC, he will 'wake up' one day and come to his senses to stop wanting her.

But right now, I have another worry. I've posted this before. When the NC was forced on him, he sort of wanting to start another EA with another colleague of his just to spike me. Or just to prove that he does these sort of things (calling them everyday, doing nice things for them like ferrying them around, buying lunch, dinner for them etc) with EVERYONE, not just the OW. I brought this up during our MC and he promised me that this is not an EA, he did not have feelings for this OW and that he will step back if he realised that things are going down that path again. I cannot do much since I have stated my boundaries and it is HIS JOB to be faithful to the M. But that doesn't mean my heart and mind can rest. That is why I find myself very tortured and unable to let go.



Mvg, thanks for looking out for me. I stopped posting for a while because everything I come back to my own thread, I am reminded once again of his unfaithfulness and I always end up very depressed for days. Also, many times, it is only me ranting/venting here alone.

I've moved back to my home. We had a long talk shortly I moved out and we sort of came to an understanding. He needs me to forgive him and not mention the A anymore. And he promised that he will remain faithful and work on the M with me. He apologised for the A and asked for my forgiveness. Now, as I moved on, I feel that I may have given in too easily though I have so many people and lessons to learn here at MB. But carrying them out is really hard. At least for me. So I am now struggling, constantly worrying that because I didn't stand my ground and protect my boundaries, I am going to lose this M eventually... I am so killing myself slowly.

BIG RED FLAGS!!!

Yes, you gave in too easily.

Never mention the affair anymore?!?!?!

How in the world are you supposed to heal if the two of you don't address the problem?!?!?!


You need to get this into some serious marriage counseling...big time.

(((jcool )))

My gut reaction is I have to agree with Owl.

BUT that doesn't mean everything is doomed!!!!!

I feel that I may have given in too easily though I have so many people and lessons to learn here at MB. But carrying them out is really hard. At least for me. So I am now struggling, constantly worrying that because I didn't stand my ground and protect my boundaries, I am going to lose this M eventually... I am so killing myself slowly.
Will he consider MC? What is he going to do to 'work' on your M?

You are not alone. I know I feel I have so much to learn JUST with the MB prinicipals then add my dysfunction, his dysfunction and you have a big ole gob of YUCK!

Ok IF and that's all caps, you didn't protect your boundaries doesn't mean you can't start protecting them right now. So you don't think you stood your ground, STAND it right now. Because you 'think' you didn't apply what you've learned doesn't mean you can't ever apply it, apply now.

I'm glad you found in your heart the ability to forgive you WH. I said the words, but I truly haven't. I know you agreed NOT to bring up the A, chalk that up to axiety, tell you WH that YOU DO NEED TO TALK ABOUT IT and it needs to be talked about before you can move forward.

Do what you need to do to save yourself and your M. Don't slowly kill yourself with regret.

(((MY thoughts and prayers to you)))

We have a couple of MC sessions. But the counsellor is not familiar with MB principles and thus I was sort of 'made' to agree on certain things that were contary to the MB principles. For example, the counsellor agrees with my WH that snooping is an invasion of his privacy though I did brought up the privacy vs secrecy theory. But she felt that so long as my WH feels that it is an invasion, it is going to be a love buster. So I had to promise that I will stop in order to allow healing in our M. But she did concur with the MB principles in certain ways such as wanting to restore the love in the M first before trying to resolve the underlying problems (a bit like Plan A).

And the fact is that we can't seem to talk about the A without ending up in some serious argument. There are a couple of times that we were not on talking terms until our next MC sessions. I know I am supposed to remain calm and not react to his fog talk but I just can't do it properly. I want to walk away from the argument many times but my heart will be screaming with all the resentment and anger I felt that I eventually let them all out and worsen the situation. I never felt so helpless in my life before. So the counsellor also have us agreed that we should stop bringing up the A and focus on doing things that we both enjoy and learn to love each other again. I felt that so long as he is willing to go MC with me, there is hope and we can eventually talk about the underlying problems (not necessarily about the A).

To be honest, the past 3-4 months had been so traumatic for me that it is affecting my whole mental and physical being. I have gained like 10 lbs and will cry at the slightest trigger (sometimes I can just cry without even any reason!). I looked into the mirror and I could not recognise me. I took some anti-Ds to stop the acute depression but had to stop due to financial reasons. It was either the anti-Ds or the MC sessions. Cannot afford both. So I chose the latter. So right now, I just want some peace. Peace within myself. I want the internal voice to quiet down so that I can sleep at night, eat normally and tear myself away from WH to go exercise or something. I don't know if this will eventually lead to the disintegration of my M or my H starting another A. I only know that I can't fight anymore or I will really commit the greatest sin of all, taking my own life.

To be honest, the past 3-4 months had been so traumatic for me that it is affecting my whole mental and physical being. I have gained like 10 lbs and will cry at the slightest trigger (sometimes I can just cry without even any reason!). I looked into the mirror and I could not recognise me. I took some anti-Ds to stop the acute depression but had to stop due to financial reasons. It was either the anti-Ds or the MC sessions. Cannot afford both. So I chose the latter. So right now, I just want some peace. Peace within myself. I want the internal voice to quiet down so that I can sleep at night, eat normally and tear myself away from WH to go exercise or something. I don't know if this will eventually lead to the disintegration of my M or my H starting another A. I only know that I can't fight anymore or I will really commit the greatest sin of all, taking my own life.
Hey Jcool, talk to your doc about the antiD's, some pharmasecuticals (sp) can help with the financial end of it. Sometimes the Docs even have enough samples they can give you. You sound like you REALLY need something to HELP you. It's very difficult to be able to focus when you're so down and crying all the time...been there done that.

I understand totally about wanting Peace, and sometimes at whatever the cost. I can't deal with anymore. WH doesn't seem to get it. We've had a straight 3 yrs. of very difficult situations with NO relief THEN his EA. Yeah I understand totally!

Personal question, and I understand if you don't want to answer...
Do you have health insurance?
What was the name of the AD's you were taking?
Do you have a good repore with your Doc?
You NEED to tell someone how you are feeling. Do you do that in MC or are you going along with what the counselor and H want?

You are on a cliff with your emotions. PLEASE step back. Looking down into the valley off the cliff 'looks' like there's peace, I don't think it is. I've contemplated the valley too many times. What would that accomplish? I'm not sure the pain would leave you even then. I think not being sure is the ONLY reason I haven't taken the step over.

As down as you are feeling right now, what/who do you love? How would they react if you were to take your life?
Please know that I don't want you to get to the cliff and say what the he$$, goodbye. PLEASE let's see if we can find some help before you seriously get there.

(((JCOOL thoughts and prayers)))

jcool I wanted you to know I'm thinking about you.

Hi mvg,

Thank you so much for keeping me in your prayers and constantly thinking about me. I really appreciate your concern.

I am fighting very hard every single day against the horrible thought. I do have a sister that loves me very much. The only problem is that I cannot confide in her because everytime I do so, she'll asked me to leave my good-for-nothing (in her eyes) WH. She knew of the things that my foggy WH did and she constantly remind me that I am not crazy to think that it is an EA, I am not unreasonable, I am not paranoid. She would have kicked him out on D-day, with or without his confession. I know it is her love for me that made her keep telling me to leave my WH. But sometimes, I just need someone to tell me to hang on.

And since I cannot talk to my WH, I came to this website to vent most of the time. I do realise that I vented without absorbing the advise and comments from the kind hearted people around here. I don't know. Perhaps it's because of my depression that I simply cannot find the strength nor the focus to do what needs to be done. I keep dwelling on the past and get upset and the slightest tiny thing that my WH didn't do 'properly'. I know he is trying his best to show concern and love for me. He is just not ready to change his waywardness or his value systems yet.

I used to take xanax for depression and stilox for sleep. Since I am off the meds, I have trouble sleeping again and had been trying to find other cheaper alternatives such as herbal tea etc. But I know that it is the mind that is most important. I need to solve the problem, not the symptopms. But right now, I may not be as strong as I want to be yet.

I hope you will go to a clinic or see your doc and get some anti-D's. Xanax is not an anti-depressant. The other thing that works good is exercise. Start tripling up on that. It also works faster than anti-D's.

Hi believer, thanks for dropping in. Yes, I forgot. Xanax is a relaxant or something. Think I was taking Lexapro for anti-Ds. They worked great while I was on them, only I had to worry about the costs and the side effects.

I had wanted to work out. But can't seem to find the motivation to do that. It is not healthy, I know.

Force yourself to exercise. Start with 5 minutes and work up to a little more each day. It will make you feel better.

Your counselor isn't doing it the MB way. I guess you know that. But as long as you are going, and he is going too, give it a couple of months and see how things go. If they don't change, then you haven't lost anything. You can always go to Plan B, but can get stronger in the meantime.

Hang in there!

(((((((((((((jcool)))))))))))))

A BIG hug for you. Hang in there!

Glad you checked in Jcool.

Hang in there!

Jcool where are you?

Hi mvg, thanks for checking in on me again. I had a long post. I hope it doesn't put you off reading it. I had a horrible week last week. I'm ashamed to say it is me who cannot seems to control my emotions. While my WH seemingly has moved on with his life, I seems to be hanging on to the past and keeps re-playing the scenes of his confession, our numberous arguments, what ugly words that was exchanged and etc etc. Our argument turned physical last weekend. It started with a very very minor issue. I called him to ask for some opinions and maybe from the hesitant way of me asking, he assumed that I have a hidden agenda and was probing him for information. We soon got into a 'what's your problem again', 'no, it's not me who has a problem, it's you' verbal fight that ended up with me hanging up the phone on him because I do not want to argue at all. That night, we were again giving each other the silent treatment and I again could not help but cry and cry again. He again, ignored me totally and went to bed and fell asleep in 5 minutes (!). How he can managed to do that never ceased to amaze me. I was very very depressed and locked myself in the study room to call the suicidal hotline. He woke up and knocked on my door twice but I didn't answer since I was talking to the counsellor. He gave up and went back to bed again. I went to him after the call and he stirred but did not wake up. I couldn't help but cry again. I know this sounds so lame but I really don't know what else I can do. I did tell myself to pull myself together. Afterall, WHAT did we argued about? I cannot even remember then. But I just felt so hopeless. So I went to the kitchen and took a knife and started cutting myself. I've done this before and it provided some temporary relief somehow. Maybe when the pain was physical, it replaces the emotional ones and I felt less desired to kill myself. Weird, I know. WH walked into the kitchen and saw what I was doing and started getting very irritated and asked me again 'what is wrong with you? what do you want again?'. I told him I just needed him to care more for me. To love me again. Not to ignore me. He started making some sarcarstic comments about if I chose to do what I am doing, of course he is going to ignore me because he finds me totally ridiculous. He was about to say something again but I lose it. I started screaming at him to stop. To stop talking to me like that. Because I have the knife in my hands, he came over to grab the knife and we fought over it for a while. He tried to say something sarcastic again and I screamed again. It was horrible. I never thought I can lose control to such an extent. In the end, he sprained his thumb and I sprained my arm. I told him in tears that if he doesn't love me anymore, just leave. Don't stay with me but ignore me. It is worse and more painful for me.

Luckily we had a MC session the next day. He skipped the last session and wanted to avoid this one as well. But after last night, he went with me, though very unwillingly. In the session, I just sat there and wondered how can our M ever recovered. I've seen sides of him and me that I've never thought existed. He ranted and ranted. He was very angry because he felt that he has tried his best to move on but I keep on hanging on to the past. I refuse to let go. But how can I if he does not show remorse? Or maybe they just don't? Not for a while at least. I felt that he is also focusing on things that I did wrong and chose to ignore the efforts that I did right. He told the counsellor that I made NO improvements at all. I really felt very upset and hopeless to be more exact. Because I had tried so very hard for so many times and yet he sees nothing. Did I really failed so badly?

But what the counsellor did was truly amazing. I don't know how she manages it but she somehow turned the situation around. She got my WH to calm down and me to stop crying. She gave a suggestion. That we would go back and think of all the things that we want to talk about/worked out. If we ultimately cannot come to a compromise, then at least we can say we have tried and not like now, just keep on arguing. That somehow gave us a direction and as we stepped out of the room, my WH gave me a real good hug and said sorry and let's try to work it out. I don't know how this is going to end but I keep telling myself. This is like Plan A again. I worked on improving myself, make myself less and less dependent on him. So that ultimately, if we have to go separate ways, I'll be ready. I hope.

(((JCool))) You are in a bad bad place. I'm so sorry. It does really really sound like you need some AD's at whatever the cost!!!!!
You can't go on hurting yourself. You can't continue to put yourself in a position that your WH will see as no win. You are physically hurting yourself you MUST see a doctor. Don't let this go on. It will not benefit anyone.

In order for me to keep some sanity, I started writing a journal of sorts. How I was feeling, what was going on, and the questions I really needed to have answered.

My WH also had a EA with at least written insuinations of making it physical. He didn't think he did anything wrong either...at first. I'm still not sure he sees what he did as an affair, but more of he hurt me so deeply. I have had hard time dealing with that. If he wouldn't admit it how could we ever get past it and for me to make sure it didn't happen again. Ok fast forward to now, I still don't know exactly what he thinks...affair or not, BUT he is making efforts to make amends and improve our M. I didn't see those efforts either until LA started posting to me. He shows me he loves me by WHAT he does. Small things working to bigger things. I discounted those things because it wasn't what I wanted or how I wanted it...I was wrong! My WH isn't a big emotional talker, but he's now trying. He didn't want to talk about 'the situation' either. LOL well of course not! It reminded him of what he did and how he hurt an innocent bystander.

At first that's all I wanted/needed to talk about. It accomplished some peace of mind but not alot. That's when I started writing. I wrote down the questions I REALLY needed answered. Some he has answered, some not yet maybe never, but I have the bulk of my questions answered.

What I have found to help, when I need to talk about the EA, I make sure I go over what I need to know or just how I feel beforehand, I have my absolute need to know questions prepared. I ask him if we can talk for a SHORT period of time 10-15 mins. I try to stay CALM which is much easier to do when you've thought everything out beforehand. If he starts getting agitated I stop talking, stating we can come back to talk at another time. (works if you get agitated too!). I also anticipate what he might say, that way if it's the worst case scenerio I'm already prepared, it's not such a shock. When he talks you must LISTEN. Don't think, just listen take in EVERYTHING he is saying, watch his body language. Be prepared to stop the converstation BEFORE it gets heated.

(((prayers for you))) Keep us updated! And please go see a doc....if you can't think straight how can you act that way???? You need to get emotionally stable.

Jcool you around?

Jcool just checking to see if you posted again. Please let us know how you are doing!

bump

Prayers to you JCool. I promise you it DOES get better. Try to get some anti-D's somehow. Some docs give out samples.

I hate that you are hurting so much over this. When you are feeling better, you will look back and think what a waste of time all the crying was.

My ex wants to get married again. I told him, thanks, but no thanks.

Hi mvg and believer, thanks for all your prayers and keep looking out for me. It really warms my heart to know that someone out here sincerely cares for me. BIG thank you!

I'm feeling better emotionally. Slightly calmer but still fighting the roller coaster almost on a daily basis.

I wanted to share with you all a story about my tooth but I ran out of time today. Will come back again soon.

Once again, thank you.

I'm glad you checked in I was worried.

Yes - Hang in there. Don't give up a day before the miracle.

Jcool what's going on with you? ((prayers)))

Hi mvg, sorry for not checking in earlier. Had a friend and her whole family staying over in my study room so I practically have no access to my computer for 2 weeks.

So here's my tooth story. I had a tooth that had been bothering my since 10 years ago. My dentist called in my 'haunted tooth'. I've done practically everything I can on it, finally I thought I can end it all by going for a root canal treatment and crowning it. IT was at peace with me for a couple of years. Then pain came back again and this time, I had no choice but to extract it. I have 2 options, either to go for a permanent implant or have a 'false tooth' that hinges on the front and back teeth for support. Of course the implant is a better and more permanent choice but it requires a long time. When I first extracted the tooth, I didn't realise I have to wait for another 2-3 months before I can do the implant. I was frustrated. I depended a lot on this tooth and it was extremely uncomfortable to eat on the other side. So I keep calling the dentist and asked if I could have the implant sooner. No, because my bone needs to grow back after the extraction and bone grows slowly. I could opt for the 2nd option but once something happens to the front and back tooth that the 'false tooth' hinges on, I need to replace it again. So it'll solve my problem temporarily, but not for long. The implant will solve my problem but it just take time...

I realise that this was the exact same situation or rather frustration that I had to go through with my WH. I am extrememly frustrated that I cannot 'fix' the M immediately. I am extremely frustrated that there isn't a button on my WH to press to make him repentent or not in the fog anymore. I keep wanting to do something to make that happened and I think this was why I felt so depressed. There is simply nothing that I can do on my WH. And whatever I did, it seems to worsen the situation. I can only work on myself and wait. Similarly with the tooth. I can cry all I want, complain all I want, kick and scream all I want. The bone simply NEEDS time to heal. Nothing will be able to hasten that. So somehow, after the initial frustration wears off and as I quiet down, I simply waited.

I know a lot of you have been advising me on what to do and what not to do. I have only myself to blame for not following them. I realised that I was too impatient. Many tells me to work on myself, set the boundaries and let him come back to me in his own timing. But I didn't want that. I want to do something to make him come back NOW. I realise that as much as I have to wait for the bone to heal to accept the implant, I really cannot rush for my M's recovery. It really took me a long while to understand that.

So I am calmer now. My WH and I went through our first 2 weeks without any argument (I found out that he was secretly marking his calender on the days that we argued, how sad). Then another 2 weeks passed peacefully. So I am working (hard) on my 3rd peaceful 2 weeks. I hope I keep this up and eventually carry out a good solid plan A.

The only thing that sets me back a little was a movie that I saw yesterday. It's 'The Holiday'. There was one part where Kate Winslet said about recovering from relationships that pierce right to my heart. She said (not exact words) that once you're betrayed, there's this hurt that never seems to go away. No matter how many gyms sessions you go to, how many good books you read (or something to the effect). It's only when someone loves you again that pieces of your soul eventually returns. After I heard it, I was stunned for a while and before I know it, tears was streaming down my face.

Sometimes I looked at my friends who never had to go through the pain of betrayal and I envied them. That their love will remain innocent and their faith about their spouses strong. I think even if my WH and I stayed in this M for the rest of our lives, some things had changed and it's irreversible. I will love him, yes, and I believe he will love me too. But will I have faith that he will not betray me again? Not now. Not for a long time to come. Maybe this is the better way, that we should not trust our spouse anyway. But I am just saddened by the way I had to learn it.

(((Jcool))) I'm so glad you posted. You sound much calmer. Your tooth story is EXACTLY what so many of us BS's try to do. RUSH the process.

Congrats. on moving ahead in a peaceful way with your WH.

Ya know, I have mixed emotions about the whole 'trust' issue. I certainly would have preferred to live in 'happily everafter', but I'm not really sure that's where we're suppose to live. Maybe part of maturing is realizing TRUST is not suppose to be so easily given in the first place and regaining it is a very precious process. So that when we do truly trust our spouses again it's with open eyes that bad things can happen but we're watching for the wolves at our gates.

I'm glad you're doing better. Take care and check in from time to time.

Hi mvg, thanks for staying with me all these while. We both started at about the same time, facing almost the same sets of problems but you've moved so much farther ahead of me. But no worries, I'm not treating it as a competition. In fact, it has been a huge encouragement for me.

I guess I was so close to the edge that it is either to jump or to step back. Jumping is so easy. But I guess some part in me believe all is not lost, yet. So as I step back, I simply refuse to look at the edge again.

Maybe time is really a good medicine. I still get pictures of our arguments flashed across my mind everyday. I still will torture myself by replaying them and HOPING that I had said or done something different. But I was able to cut the 'flash back' to shorter and shorter time and I was able to be less affected by them. My WH is helping too. I asked if I could call him during those times and if he could talk to me to distract me. And he had been doing that without frustration or complaints.

What we haven't managed to do is to sit down and talk all about the A and get it out of our system. He is not ready and I am not ready. I don't think I've reach that stage that I can be calm and not feel hurt talking about it and not react to it. I hope that day will come. But now, like what Mark has described, let me fix one room at one time first. If I start fixing everything, by the time it is done, there will be no one left to stay in the house.

You hang in there too mvg, you're doing GREAT!

"Sometimes I looked at my friends who never had to go through the pain of betrayal and I envied them. That their love will remain innocent and their faith about their spouses strong. I think even if my WH and I stayed in this M for the rest of our lives, some things had changed and it's irreversible. I will love him, yes, and I believe he will love me too."

So true, jcool. Sadly the innocense is gone after an affair. The marriage will never, ever be the same again.

But we here at MB think that it CAN be much better.

jcool, I'm glad you are NOT looking over the edge now. If you ever get to that point again, I certainly hope you'd have the strength to leave your WH instead of harming yourself.

I feel for you on the flash backs. NOT a pretty place to find yourself. For me asking questions helped calm my mind. The not knowing was making it worse. I'm glad you are trying to find inner peace before you discuss that.

I don't know IF I've truly moved ahead of you. I think YOU are doing better by fixing 1 room at a time. I just did it a little differently and not necessarily the MB way. I used alot of the MB info but didn't play by the MB playbook. I can be stubborn like that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I'm so happy that your WH is helping you thru your triggers/flash back issues. Definatley a positive step.

Believer is RIGHT, our M's can be MUCH BETTER than before if both are willing to work together.

Take care and keep us updated on your progress!

Believer, I WANT to believe that you're right. I know that it is pretty much like broken bones, once they're healed, they're actually stronger than before. I certainly HOPED that this is the way my M is going though it is still very difficut to say at this moment.

Mvg, yes, my WH is helping, but for how long I have no idea. I know he is a man with a very short fuse. He will help me for as long as he can stand it. He has stopped our MC now because he said there is no need for it anymore since we stopped arguing. I know if I inisist, he'll probably still go with me, though unwillingly. But I don't know if I insist, will it be a love buster since he is so unhappy about it? I know he still has not come out of the fog yet. He still thinks that I am wrong and that my 'jealousy' has caused him his 'precious' friendship. But he is willing to 'forgive' me and move on. So I should be grateful and move on too. I can tell this is the way he thinks from some of the comments he made. Though when I probed further by asking why he said that, he'll usually clam up and refuse to say anything more because he does not want to get into an argument again.

Though I find myself calmer now, I do find myself feeling like I am standing on thin ice. Any minute the thing is going to crack and I am going to plunge into the deep cold water. It is very unsettling. But if I do anything now, the ice may crack now too. What should I do?? I want to continue the MC but I do not know if I should MADE him come with me.

I would INSIST on marriage counseling. Just let him know that you appreciate all his effort, but desire a much better marriage than you had before, for the both of you.