His last day of work in his former office was 20 Jul. But the OW stopped talking to him about 3 weeks earlier. He tried to call her on the 14 Aug and had a 6-10 mins talk both on 16 Aug and 20 Aug. So the first NC period was about 3 weeks before he broke it. I don't know if he tried calling her again after that because he now guards his hp day and night so I'll have to wait for the new phone bill next month to find out. If after the 20 Aug there was NC, then it should about 1 month by now.

I sincerely hope that he is really babbling and not coming from the 'real' him. He told me he needed closure. He cannot stand knowing that someone thinks badly of him. He said that things happened so fast between the OW and I that after that phone call, the OW just dropped him like a hot potato and avoided him and told other people that he lied to her. He needed to know why she said that and wanted to undo that damage. Our counsellor asked him did he really just wanted closure (and thus say sorry, ask for forgiveness and then never see her again) or did he wanted to continue the friendship after that. He said he hoped for the latter ( <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />) but if he is given the chance to explain and she still do not accept his friendship, then he will accept the outcome of not seeing her again. But right now, I am depriving him of a chance to 'heal'. And because of that, he cannot work on the M. I felt soooooo frustrated.

The whole point is he doesn't think that this is an A. Thus I am the one in the wrong. I over-reacted due to jealousy or insecurity and went to tell the OW all sorts of nonsense to make him lose her as a friend. I am really so tired of all these arguing. It's like talking to a wall all the time.

Am I ready for Plan B? I would like to think so. At least I felt very strongly that I am so tired so all these last night and for the first time, I did not cry during the argument. The only thing is that I will have to be the one moving out because he will not move. I have got my finances covered, my plan B letter ready and found a friend's house to stay for at least 2-3 months. Am I emotionally ready? I would hope so but I guess I wouldn't know for sure until I am at that stage.

He is babbling because no one in their right mind would throw away a family and an M for a 'friendship' that wasn't an A. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> No logic.

So he wants his 'friendship'? Ask him at what cost is he willing to sell his family and M for that friendship? Then say, if his sister or brother abandoned their families for a stranger what would he think of them? Use someone he knows has integrity.

L.

So I should stand firm on the NC right? In my anger, sometimes I am tempted to say 'Ok, go ahead, contact her and ask/tell her all that you want, then get your closure and be done with it!'. But I know once I let go, all the effort will be wasted.

I did ask him if this 'friendship' is worth the price of our M. Guess what he says. 'It doesn't have too. We can all be friends if you like. In fact, I was hoping it will be that way. But if you insisted that it has to be mutually exclusive, I cannot do anything.' As if I am asking for something so unreasonable.

Orchid: I did. I told the WS to go to the OW because by that time, they deserved each other and he didn't deserve us.

Guess what? Basic WS rules.... 'never do what a BS tells you to, even if it sounds good for the A'. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

With that fact... it tore a big one in the A. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Orchid: Then let him know he must still be a WS because he is babbling again. Let him know you and your family don't associate with tramps or OWs. LOL!!! I said that to mine because at one point he had the nerve to tell me that the OW is a lot like me. HA!!! Couldn't have been farther from the truth. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

L.

Wayward's thinking and reasoning is so far from reality, it's unbelievable! I was just upset over this ridiculous email my WH sent, then I come here and feel comforted. I'M not the one going crazy. WE'RE not the ones going crazy. Our WS have lost their minds.

How your husband could think you'd all be friends would be almost laughable, if it wasn't so sad and heartbreaking. It is so frustrating dealing w/ that. And overwhelming at times. Thank God for plan B.

Orchid and sl77, thanks for sharing your experience and thoughts with me. Sometimes, when it is the WS that we faced all the time, we lose perspective. At least I lose perspective, on a daily basis. That is why I keep coming to this forum, to seek for advice, comfort and most importantly, to vent.

My WH doesn't think that he is wayward at all. So it is very frustating to talk to him. When I told him about the typical wayward behaviours such as suffering from withdrawal after NC, babbling, sense of entitlement etc, he simply refused to believe them and let alone work on them. For example, he doesn't believe that he is in withdrawal and thus he cannot explain the feeling of lost he felt. He said he knew something was missing in his life, but he doesn't know what is it and thus cannot go about making it better. He keeps wallowing in self pity and keeps feeling depressed. So he doesn't believe it when I told him that the withdrawal symptoms will go off after a while, after sufficient NC had been maintained. He also doesn't believe that an NC is necessary for affair-proofing the M since it was never an A to begin with in his dictionary. How can you work with someone on a problem who doesn't believe there was one to begin with.

So sl77, to him, having me becoming friends with his friends is not ridiculous. And I agree, IF SHE WAS NOT THE OW. Sigh... But he just don't get it...

Right now, after the MC session yesterday, I told myself that I will give him another 2 weeks. The counsellor managed to convice him (for the 2nd time) to work on the M first. He actually went there with the hope that the counsellor will convince ME to agree for him to contact the OW. How blind the WS can become.

Anyway, I can see that now he is forcing himself to do it, to be nice to me, to show me that he is working on the M. I know he'd rather be contacting the OW at this point. I used to feel very hurt seeing him having to force himself to be nice to me. Now, I am not bothered as much. I don't know why. Maybe because I am ready for Plan B and I gave myself a deadline.

Good job, jcool. Only you can figure out when you are ready for Plan B. But it is vital to do an excellent Plan A first.

On the other hand, if you feel close to losing all your love for your husband, then go to Plan B.

Yes believer, thanks for reminding me on that. A good Plan A. That was the only reason why I had tried to hang on for another 2 weeks. I didn't want to look back (if I ended up single again) in the future and regretted not putting in my best effort for the M.

But I struggled so very hard. It is hard not to react to him giving me the slient and moody treatment when he will talk and joke and laugh with a friend who just called. Then when he puts down the phone, he changes back to the moody man again. If it was not so painful to watch, I actually would suggest that he auditioned for an actor. His expression can really change from one mimute to the other. He is so good at it.

I think I NEEDED to go for Plan B rather than wanted it. If I can, I would rather hang on a little longer, say another 1-2 months. But I find myself increasingly frustrated by WH and his wayward behaviour. I find myself increasingly feeling the anger and resentment. I wanted to do a good, solid Plan A but sometimes, I can't help but wanting to verbally fight back. And that is not good. Instead of depositing more love units, I actually withdraw from it. And he keeps withdrawing love units from my bank too. I am afraid that if I do not go into Plan B now, I may eventually hate him. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I previously drafted a Plan B letter and now as I re-read it, I realised I didn't put in the conditions for recovery explictly. I need some advice. What are some of the conditions you will put in a Plan B letter. I know I will put in the NC with the OW for life as one. Continue counselling as one. No more lies as one. What else will be a good idea to include?

Sometimes I'll wake up and feel that I am ok. I am getting stronger and I am a better at controlling my emotions. But today, I woke up finding myself dreading Plan B. What would I do without him? I'll be so lonely that I can just die. Why can't one just take their own lifes? If this life is so painful, why do I have to keep living it?

I want to just not feel pain or anger or hurt or jealousy or cheap or whatever anymore. Is that too much to ask?

Now WH guards everything and had most of his things done in the office computer so I can't snoop on a lot of things. So I have no way to know for sure (until the end of the month if I managed to intercept the phone bills) if he contacted the OW or not or if he has been calling and texting the new OW on an inappropriate frequency.

I'm still trying to do a Plan A till next week. But I've read about some posts here saying you go into Plan B if the A doesn't stop. But what if the A stopped but WH is unwilling to work on the M with me? What if he just shuts himself off and we go through our daily lifes like housemates? Do I stay on try to work on Plan A or proceed to Plan B?

Go into plan B if the following criterias are met:

1. Your mind and heart are in sync. This is a requirement because plan B is a strong step forward away from the A.

2. You are done with your plan A improvements.

3. You have identified your personal and M boundaries.

4. You are ready to implement those boundaries. They are solid boundaries (not subject to change).

5. Mastered reverse babble and other techniques that put you back in control....over you.

With the above, you won't need to snoop. You w/b in a better and more solid position to handle whatever the WS throws your way.

You will find the WS actually depends on sucking the life out of you and with a good plan B, you have plugged up that lifeline.

In reality, you don't want the WS to survive. Nope.... you want the WS to wither and your real spouse to escape.

By NOT enabling the A, you are doing your part in killing the A.

JMHO,
L.

Had a bad agrument again last night. I don't know why eventhough I keep telling myself to let go and ignore his wayward behaviour, I just can't do it. The scenes of his anger outburst and the things that he said will just keep repeating themselves in my mind.

Whole thing started with him throwing my stack of MB books into my study room. I purposely left it in the living room so that he MAY want to pick up one and read (he agreed to read HNHN but never did). Then followed by a couple of things he did that made me felt upset. Such as changing his computer screen everytime I stepped into his study room, or looking up from his computer and gave me that irritated look as if I am disturbing him. Or asking me 'what is wrong with you?' instead of hugging me when I cried. Then at night, when we were shopping for a new hand phone, I accidentally found that he installed a new key lock phone to his hp that requires a password to unlock. I stopped snooping on his hp for a while now because I made that promise during the MC session. But what do I get in return? More walls, more guards. I felt really discouraged so I kept quiet for a while. But I finally could not stand it and ask him. He said he needed to 'feel secure'. That's why he install that software. We then got into the 'who is the first one to cause the lost of trust in the first place' argument. He said it was my snooping and my calling the OW and caused him to lose her as a friend that started it. I said that it was the EA that started it. So in the fit of anger, I packed my bags and left. I couldn't take it anymore.

But as I moved into the temp place. I was so full of regret that I do not know what to do. And I hate myself for being so weak and missing him already. What should I do now? Treat it as a Plan B and keep quiet or try to get him back?

He said it was my snooping and my calling the OW and caused him to lose her as a friend that started it. I said that it was the EA that started it. So in the fit of anger, I packed my bags and left. I couldn't take it anymore.

Has the EA ended? His response is typical "fog" talk. Yeah you snoop...HE lost your trust,HE was dishonest.

But as I moved into the temp place. I was so full of regret that I do not know what to do. And I hate myself for being so weak and missing him already. What should I do now? Treat it as a Plan B and keep quiet or try to get him back?

jcool, I'm sorry this happened to you. What is your status today? Are you still 'out' or what? Give us an update.

Jcool where are you?

Yes, the EA ended. I am pretty sure of that. At least I knew from the last time I contacted the OW, she was totally pissed at both of us for 'messing' up her life. She asked me to control my husband and not pester her anymore (my WH had tried to call her and tried to 'win' her back as a friend) but I told her if I can control him, the EA wouldn't have started. My WH knew that the OW was really pissed and by pushing further for the renewal of friendship, he is going to push her further away. So he stopped contacting her. For now. I'm KNOW in my heart that he is waiting around for the chance to get back to her. I only hoped that with enough time for NC, he will 'wake up' one day and come to his senses to stop wanting her.

But right now, I have another worry. I've posted this before. When the NC was forced on him, he sort of wanting to start another EA with another colleague of his just to spike me. Or just to prove that he does these sort of things (calling them everyday, doing nice things for them like ferrying them around, buying lunch, dinner for them etc) with EVERYONE, not just the OW. I brought this up during our MC and he promised me that this is not an EA, he did not have feelings for this OW and that he will step back if he realised that things are going down that path again. I cannot do much since I have stated my boundaries and it is HIS JOB to be faithful to the M. But that doesn't mean my heart and mind can rest. That is why I find myself very tortured and unable to let go.



Mvg, thanks for looking out for me. I stopped posting for a while because everything I come back to my own thread, I am reminded once again of his unfaithfulness and I always end up very depressed for days. Also, many times, it is only me ranting/venting here alone.

I've moved back to my home. We had a long talk shortly I moved out and we sort of came to an understanding. He needs me to forgive him and not mention the A anymore. And he promised that he will remain faithful and work on the M with me. He apologised for the A and asked for my forgiveness. Now, as I moved on, I feel that I may have given in too easily though I have so many people and lessons to learn here at MB. But carrying them out is really hard. At least for me. So I am now struggling, constantly worrying that because I didn't stand my ground and protect my boundaries, I am going to lose this M eventually... I am so killing myself slowly.

BIG RED FLAGS!!!

Yes, you gave in too easily.

Never mention the affair anymore?!?!?!

How in the world are you supposed to heal if the two of you don't address the problem?!?!?!


You need to get this into some serious marriage counseling...big time.

(((jcool )))

My gut reaction is I have to agree with Owl.

BUT that doesn't mean everything is doomed!!!!!

I feel that I may have given in too easily though I have so many people and lessons to learn here at MB. But carrying them out is really hard. At least for me. So I am now struggling, constantly worrying that because I didn't stand my ground and protect my boundaries, I am going to lose this M eventually... I am so killing myself slowly.
Will he consider MC? What is he going to do to 'work' on your M?

You are not alone. I know I feel I have so much to learn JUST with the MB prinicipals then add my dysfunction, his dysfunction and you have a big ole gob of YUCK!

Ok IF and that's all caps, you didn't protect your boundaries doesn't mean you can't start protecting them right now. So you don't think you stood your ground, STAND it right now. Because you 'think' you didn't apply what you've learned doesn't mean you can't ever apply it, apply now.

I'm glad you found in your heart the ability to forgive you WH. I said the words, but I truly haven't. I know you agreed NOT to bring up the A, chalk that up to axiety, tell you WH that YOU DO NEED TO TALK ABOUT IT and it needs to be talked about before you can move forward.

Do what you need to do to save yourself and your M. Don't slowly kill yourself with regret.

(((MY thoughts and prayers to you)))

We have a couple of MC sessions. But the counsellor is not familiar with MB principles and thus I was sort of 'made' to agree on certain things that were contary to the MB principles. For example, the counsellor agrees with my WH that snooping is an invasion of his privacy though I did brought up the privacy vs secrecy theory. But she felt that so long as my WH feels that it is an invasion, it is going to be a love buster. So I had to promise that I will stop in order to allow healing in our M. But she did concur with the MB principles in certain ways such as wanting to restore the love in the M first before trying to resolve the underlying problems (a bit like Plan A).

And the fact is that we can't seem to talk about the A without ending up in some serious argument. There are a couple of times that we were not on talking terms until our next MC sessions. I know I am supposed to remain calm and not react to his fog talk but I just can't do it properly. I want to walk away from the argument many times but my heart will be screaming with all the resentment and anger I felt that I eventually let them all out and worsen the situation. I never felt so helpless in my life before. So the counsellor also have us agreed that we should stop bringing up the A and focus on doing things that we both enjoy and learn to love each other again. I felt that so long as he is willing to go MC with me, there is hope and we can eventually talk about the underlying problems (not necessarily about the A).

To be honest, the past 3-4 months had been so traumatic for me that it is affecting my whole mental and physical being. I have gained like 10 lbs and will cry at the slightest trigger (sometimes I can just cry without even any reason!). I looked into the mirror and I could not recognise me. I took some anti-Ds to stop the acute depression but had to stop due to financial reasons. It was either the anti-Ds or the MC sessions. Cannot afford both. So I chose the latter. So right now, I just want some peace. Peace within myself. I want the internal voice to quiet down so that I can sleep at night, eat normally and tear myself away from WH to go exercise or something. I don't know if this will eventually lead to the disintegration of my M or my H starting another A. I only know that I can't fight anymore or I will really commit the greatest sin of all, taking my own life.