WH called our MC and arranged a session for himself and the OW!! Said he BADLY needed the truth and need to ask her to find out. But she will not answer his call. So he called her office direct line which does not have a caller ID. He begged her to meet him and tell him the truth. She refused. That is why he came up with this idea of talking in front of our MC. She agreed to go only if he gets my consent.

So WH came home today and apologize for arranging all these before consulting with me. But he assures me that if I do not want it, he will not have it. But he BADLY needed it and hope that I can allow him to do it. And he needs me to tell the OW that I allowed them to go to see our MC to talk things out. He said if I don't called the OW, she will not go. So please. Let him and the OW to talk it out. Then he'll have his peace.

What should I do? Why is it that which ever way I turn is so hopeless?

Well now, that's a new one - the OW and WH going to the married couple's marriage counselor!!!!!!!

I would not consent, and I would get ready for Plan B. Are you financially able to make it WITHOUT him?

I'm moving into Plan B. Today. I will be able to make it without him. I'll be temporary staying at a friend's place till I find something permanent. Don't know if I should leave him a letter or I should just leave. I felt so tired now. I have no more love for this alien being that I do not know anymore.

You need to take your time going into Plan B. You need to write a Plan B letter, and post it here. Also, you should not be the one to move out - he should. But first I would let him know that it is NOT okay for him to go with the OW to the MC.

Believer, you're right. I should not rush. I will work on my letter first.

I have to be the one to move because he won't leave. I ask him before and he said this is his house too why should he.

I told him to go see the MC alone first. If she thinks that by bringing in the OW will help our M, then the 3 of us should go together. If he wants the 'truth', then what better way to get it from BOTH horses' mouth? I doubt the MC will ask to bring in the OW because what good will it do? But maybe if he insisted saying that this will help out his mind at rest etc, at least I felt that all 3 of us should be there.

I am also very angry at the OW. She promised NC but she broke it. When my WH asked/begged her to meet up to tell him the 'truth', she should just say no. Instead, by asking my WH to come get consent from me, she is basically trying to get us to fight again. She should know that.

Here's my plan B letter. Please help.

Dear H,

This is a difficult letter for me to write, one that I have hoped the day for me to give it to you will never come. I have written this letter with the true love that only a wife can have for a husband. Please read every word I have written, for it is from the heart.

I want you to know that I love you! I know that you will always reside in my heart since I do have a great love for you after all we’ve gone through.
The past 3 months have been a difficult passage of time for me, the most emotionally traumatic in my life. We seemed to start recovery in the beginning, only to slip and fail again. We have somehow misplaced our foundation of trust and respect. Now, my anger and bitterness are too great for me to handle. I am so sad and so miserable right now and I truly need to get a grip. That is why we must separate.
I am going to take this time apart to try and understand my part in all this as well as try to get rid of my negativity and constant dwelling on the past. I need to let go, release myself of the burden and forgive – forgive myself and you – for my sake! I want to do whatever I can to put our marriage back together in a mutually satisfying way.
When you find yourself ready and willing to truly and fully commit to our marriage, willing to work on a plan for our recovery, and continue our counseling, I will be ready and willing to discuss our future. Until then, I will be having no communication with you. This is not to punish you; it is to protect my feelings for you and our chances at reconciliation. If we continue as we are now, there would be nothing left.

Love you always,
W

That's a good letter. I would add something about no contact with the other woman ever again for any reason as a condition of recovery.

If it were me, I wouldn't go to MC with the OW and my husband. She has no place in your marriage or counseling to save your marriage.

Everything is too late now. WH packed his bags and left.

I guess I didn't do a good Plan A at all. LB all the way... I only managed to find strength to hold on during his initial stage of withdrawal. After when he went for the counselling and things seems to improve, I guess I let my hopes got too high. That is why I reacted so strongly to his request/excuse to see the OW. I felt the whole betrayal thing started again and I do not want to go through the entire process again. I am so scared of his dark moods and sarcastic remarks. I am so scared of his indifference to me. I cannot take this any longer and I tried to reason with him not realising that this is LB too. Now I lost him...

WH didn't leave after all. After we both cooled down, he called and asked if we can wait till the MC session before we do something that we both regret in the future. I said ok. So all was quiet (not exactly peaceful, but quiet) for a while. On Monday, he went for his session alone, the session that he booked originally for himself and the OW. 2 days later, we went to see the counsellor together. She explained to us that she wouldn't agreed to seeing the OW because it will not help our M at all. If she do so, she'll become the judge or even the facilitator and this is not going to help our M. Actually, that really put my mind at rest. That shows me that she knows what she is doing and I don't have to worry about being trapped in a situation where my WH and her will 'gang up' against me (for example to lift the NC). She set certain ground rules (such as making sure we both understand why she would not see the OW for us, she will not help us keep secrets from each other etc) and then asked my WH to wait outside while she listens to my side of the story. I told her and she said it was exactly what my WH had said 2 days ago. The root of our problems is that we have very very different value systems. I tend to see things black and white while my WH has a lot of tones of grey. I believe that an EA is an A but my WH believes that only when it get physical, then it is an A. So I think he betrayed me but he doesn't think so. So I expect him to feel remorse but he doesn't see the point. So I reacted in a certain way and he doesn't understand what the fuss is this all about. So we are in a dead lock.

In the end, she sent us home with the assignment to write down our boundaries. She warned us that the next session is going to be a 'make it or break it' session. Because we could look at each other's boundaries and feels that (a) it's not too bad, I can deal with that or (b) forget it, this is like a prison, I am not going to agree to the terms. I don't know how my WH feels about this but I am simply glad to finally put the terms on the table and discussed about it. The last time I drew my boundaries, my husband said yes to this and that but the rest he needs to think about it. But he never came back with the answer. And soon after, we started MC and the matter was sort of put on hold while we try to work on the M by making each other feel better first.

So I need help. Please. Help me list down the boundaries. I am going to put down the POJA and the boundaries about inappropriate behavioir towards other female. What else should I include?

I have been struggling through the whole Plan A process and I think my main problem is that I cannot come to terms with WH's fog. I know that MB has clearly stated the situation but it is still so heart-breaking to see and live with this alien being who used to be my husband.

He recently tells me that he harbour the hope of being friends with the OW again eventhough he knows it is not possible right now. But he will miss her and keep her in his heart till the day he forgot to breathe. Not that he is in love with her but that he misses the time with her when they are good friends, when they can talk so freely and he enjoyed her company as a friend. I was simply too hurt for any words. I know that this is what MB calls fog talk. But it doesn't lessen the pain that I am feeling. I felt him drifting away from me day after day. Now we could hardly hold a 5 minute conversation meaningfully. I don't get my needs met and I keep LB'ing his love bank.

I really don't know if he will comes out from the fog at all since he never agrees to the NC in the first place. He will, like he said, hang on to the hope that one day the OW will lift the NC and they can be friends again. And I will 'grow up' enough to see that it is just pure friendship. I felt so much despair and hopelessness that I do not know how to handle. The situation seems to get worse. I know I have to get my act together and ignore his fog talk and carry out a good Plan A.

But all these is so hard... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

We went to see the MC today. WH was expecting a whole long list of do's & dont's from me. But I didn't do that. Finally, after a few days of reflecting and being true to my feelings, I realise that I did not apply what MB and the people who answered to my posts had taught me. I said I will do a Plan A but I probably do it for like 2 weeks. Then, the resentful and bitter me took over and did not want to see the futile efforts in trying to argue to a foggy WH. I keep thinking by forcing my pain and hurt and 'you betrayed me, you betrayed me, you betrayed me' down his throat, he'll finally come to his senses one day. But he doesn't. In fact, the situation just got worse and worse.

And I felt so lost. I don't know what to do next. And I wasn't getting any reply from this forum. I guess maybe because I am in a fog too and many simply chose to remain silent since whatever advice they posted, I am not letting them get into my head.

So, yesterday, while preparing for the MC session today. I asked myself. Do I want to move into a Plan B now. Seems like an easy way out. But what 'good memories' did I leave my WH with that will make him want to work on the M again? I don't know what happened but it just hit me. What Plan A? What did I do for Plan A? NOTHING. Instead I did all the things that others have adviced me not to. I reacted to his fog talk, I argue with him all the time, I reacted so strongly to every thing that he told me that he decide to tell me nothing no more. What kind of Plan A is that?

So I decided. I decided that I will do a REAL Plan A this time. I will not give in to my bitter, resentful self and allow them to take over my reactions. I decide to stop reacting to his fog talk and just show him all the love that I am capable of giving. So instead of showing the list of do's and dont's, I just told WH in front of the counsellor that this is what I will do. The boundaries are for me and me alone. I cannot change nor manipulate him to remain faithful to me. But I can chose not to be married to one. And the funny thing is, as I laid down my 'weapons', so did my WH.

I don't know where this will take us. But I will take one day at a time now.

Well, pick a plan and stick to it. You really DO need to attempt a solid Plan A, WITHOUT any expectations. We all know how difficult it is. But you must give him a good taste of what a good, fun wife you can be, a very attractive alternative to the OW.

It may help to think of him as being like a crazy person - in the fog. That way you won't take it so personally.

Today is one of those really bad days for me. It started with yesterday actually. WH and I decided to go for a photo exhibition together, something we always used to do in the past. We met some old friends, talked a bit and went home. I felt strangely depressed. Maybe because it was not the same anymore. We may be doing the things that we used to enjoy but we no longer enjoyed it anymore. The relationship now is very strained. So, not surprisely, I had a hard time falling asleep last night. Stayed awake till 5am in the morning. Slept for 2 hours and had to wake up for work again. To make things worse, it started raining heavily. It was a bit of a trigger for me because the last time it rained so heavily, WH woke up extra early so that he could give the OW a ride (before the EA was exposed) and that subsequently turned into a ride everyday, not just rainy days. So as I was fighting the weather to get to work myself and getting wet all over, I can't help but wished my WH will do the same for me. Wake up early to give me a ride. But I know he wouldn't. Not in his current state of mind. How long more do I have to hang on? I really need a hug today.

[color:"blue"]jcool
Member


Re: Musings From Mark. It Ain't Magic, but Maybe Science
#3302923 - 09/10/07 03:37 AM

Mark, thanks very much for the useful links and 'stories'. It is indeed very very helpful. I have many of them printed out so that I can keep reading them over and over again.

Can I ask you some questions? My WH had the NC 'forced' on him by the OW. So he keep wanting to get the 'friendship' back and wanted me to 'come to my senses' one day to 'see the truth' and allow the friendship to go on again. I did told him that NC is for life. But he simply refused to listen. He said I am just blinded by my jealousy now so I cannot see it properly. I will be able to understand in due time. So my question is this: When the NC is forced on the WS, do they ever come out of their fog since they never wanted to end the A in the first place and thus keep harbouring the hope of getting back with the OP again? How do I deal with a WS like this? He almost hated me for breaking up the friendship and has caught me snooping and thus is not trusting me anymore because he said whatever information he told me, he doesn't know how I will use it against him. He had started seeing a MC with me but things are still roller coasting... How do we ever get the trust back in the relationship?[/color]

I've copied and pasted your questions from my "Musings" thread over here so that your story remains more or less together for future reference.


The last question is easiest to answer and so I will begin there. Simply put, you start to trust again when you are given a reason to trust. Until he is trustworthy, you cannot trust him and only by a process of him becoming more transparent and you being able to verify everything independently will he ever be able to show himself to be a person you can trust once more.

The whole process is a roller coaster. Expect it! You will have good days, even great days and those will be followed by days you'll think slow death would be easier to deal with. You will switch from great hope to wanting to crawl under a rock and die and back again so often your head will hurt from the whiplash..I repeat..EXPECT IT!

This is not something out of the blue but merely part of the process. You need to know it's going to happen like this and will for some time to come. It begins to lessen as time goes on, but even after a year or more you could still trigger and have a really bad day just over something trivial that you never even gave a second thought to before.

The best way to break through the fog is for him to maintain NC for long enough to get over it. In the mean time, you need to be doing all that you can to show him that you are the better choice any way. Plan A isn't about fits and starts and giving up only to begin again, but about really hard work of putting every need and expectation of your own aside while doing all you can to show him you are able to be the best wife possible.

The real problem is that you need to be sure you are willing to make the changes needed over time for it to be effective. If you do something that attracts him back and then pull it away, he will NOT believe your changes any more than you can believe his.


Figure out what it is that he requires as to ENs and meet those needs to the best of your ability and plan on doing so forever...

As for him not trusting you...IGNORE IT! This is true WS babble.

In your post above this one you asked how long you have to hang on. The answer is as simple as deciding when you have had all you can take.

When you are nearing your end and have very little love left for him, it is time to go to Plan B. But that is NOT the same as giving up but the next step of a process that started with Plan A. So for Plan B to work for saving your marriage it needs to follow a brief and amazing Plan A. His last memory of you has to be how great you were and how much he enjoyed being around you. If his memories are of fighting about OW and arguing about his actions then Plan B is really the beginning of Plan D.

In addition, Plan B must be PLANNED in advance so that you can get all your ducks in a row and have something you can execute. If you can suddenly severe ties with him after doing all of this stuff for him (Plan A) it will be shock to his fantasy. But if you shout at him and walk out, love busting as your final goodbye, there will be no need for Plan B since you will actually be firing the first shot of Plan D.

So you execute Plan A (without expecting anything from him for a while, not even results as to the fog lifting.) And while doing Plan A you plan what Plan B will look like for you. If you make progress in Plan A you keep going. If nothing is working in Plan A, you aren't doing a good Plan A or he has withdrawn from you so far he no longer cares about getting his ENs met by you.

Evaluate what you are doing and if nothing improves, you go into Plan B, remembering that Plan B is a last ditch effort to save your marriage. It is the last thing you can do, which is NOTHING more than you have already done. It is no longer about breaking through the fog or trying to get WS to change but simply about saving your own sanity and preserving the last ounce of your love for him so that IF he changes his mind and wants to return to you there will be enough left to build on. Dr Harley suggests waiting two years in Plan B because that is about as long as most affairs last.

But in your specific case, you probably need to do more work on Plan A right now, because he is not seeing OW (from what I gather) and is at least dialoguing with you. The trick now becomes one of not trying to force recovery to happen but of trying to do the best job you can of meeting his ENs, again...without expecting anything in return at first, and as unfair as it may be, help him get over the loss of OW.

Let me give you this and see if it helps...

The love between you and your husband is not, was not and never will be anything magical or destined by fate. It was, is and will be the result of being what each other wants and is attracted to over time. His fantasy love with OW is over. So too is your fantasy of what love with him was like. The choice you have to make is whether you can live without the fantasy part of it and rebuild what love is really all about or if you have to give up because the fantasy was all that mattered to you. You get to choose and you have to live with the choice you make.

Mark

(((jcool)))

Thanks! I was wondering what should I do so as not to mess up your post. I am not very tech savvy and thus have trouble figuring out how to add a link to my post so that I can just ask you to click and read rather than posting the questions in your thread.




But the thing is, he does not WANT to earn my trust back. He thinks he did nothing wrong and it was I who over-reacted. He told me, EA is not an A. I was the one who betrayed his trust because when he told me about his 'impulsive act' to hold the OW's hand that day, he did it out of honesty. He could have chosen not to tell me. And I 'rewarded' him by destroying his friendship with the OW and asking the NC for life. So he does not see that he has any fault in all these. During our MC, he only admitted that he understands that I did all these out of jealousy and thus he can TRY to forgive me for that. But he has trouble trusting me again because he does not know by chosing to be honest with me, how I will react and what he may stood to lose again. So now, he chose to be silent and not tell me anything.




That is sooooo true... And I felt better, knowing that IT IS 'NORMAL'. I know many had told me about this before. But reading it now, when I am at the stage of wanting to crawl under a rock and die, makes me feel not so lonely in my fight.




I know I'm being 'thick' here. But do they really get over it? Even if they never wanted it in the first place? I mean, right now, on our good days, I have this fear of him bringing up the topic of breaking the NC. The last time he did, we had a huge fight with him almost packing his bag and leave. So I don't know if coming out of the fog will also mean that he will see the damage he'll do if he break the NC and thus will not ask for it anymore. Or will he come out of the fog and still thinks that it is ok to keep the friendship.




Somehow by putting it this way, it brings it into perspective for me. I have always thought that Plan B is just walking away from the hurt to preserve the love I have for him. But I always thought more of it as a 'I had enough!' kinda of walk away. But like you said, that might be as well walking straight into a plan D. Preparing for Plan B, how it will look like for me... That sets me thinking...




Yes, I realise that too. I know my situation is not as bad since he is still around and that NC, no matter how it came by, did come by though he broke it just last week after calling the OW to ask her for the 'truth'. And at the very least, he is still willing to go MC with me. But it is just the uncertainty of how it will all turn out that is killing me. And the unknown time frame too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I know this sounds silly but it is so hard to not to be able to force recovery. How I wish I have a remote that goes 'poof!' and all is well (in fact better!). All this bearing down and waiting and doing all the best that you can is so.... hard. Sigh...




Mark, you really did hit me hard on this one, over the part that my love between my WH and I is not destined by fate. I guess why I felt so 'insecure' is also because I always had this idea of 'soulmate by fate'. Some will be lucky and meet theirs at the right time and become H&W. Some, the timing will be wrong and they cannot be together and thus they live the rest of their life in agony, unfulfilled. I always wanted to the 'the one' for my H but somehow I know I am not, maybe because we are so different and the love between us is never 'magical'. So I was always afraid that 'the one' will come by one day and my H will be gone. But what you said is true. There is no 'the one'. Not for me, not for my H. But more of 'being' or 'becoming' the one that each other wants.

I just hope that one day, my WH will open up a bit and let me communicate with him. Then at least I can talk about what his ENs are and how I can meet them and what are my LB for him etc. Now, the days are just filled with silence...

But thanks Mark. I really needed this.

Thanks SBGuy too, for the hug!

jcool,

To be sure I didn't get this wrong...

Does MC agree with your H that EAs are not a problem and in your case triggered jealousy and that is what the key issue is?

I hope that your MC can see the damage done by an emotional attachment to someone else while married and if not, it is time for a new MC.

What you need is someone to help you break the cycle of lies accusations and further lies. You also need someone who will stand up to him for you and say "Listen up dummy!..." so that he can understand what he has done and why it was hurtful to you and perhaps even why hurting you is bad in itself.

For your part you don't really have to identify his top love busters since all love busters have the consequence of depleting the LB$. As difficult as it sounds, eliminating all love busters will not only help your marriage but also your dealings with other people as well.

Probably the most dangerous of all love busters is angry outbursts because it is while angry that we are most likely to say hurtful things that we simply cannot take back after we've said them.

As for Plan A, B and D...

Plan A = Give
Plan B = Stop Giving (not the same as take)
Plan D = Take back

Plan A allows you to try to fill his LB$ so he knows what he has in you.

Plan B stops the madness and gives you rest, but also gives him a way to return to the marriage by meeting specific requirements. These are the things you need to spell out before going into Plan B mode and to tell him what you will need to rebuild the marriage, you must be able to identify them yourself.

Once Plan D has begun, assuming it has begun by a decision on your part, simply take what ever you can get and punish the infidel at will. Before you begin down this road YOU must be sure it is over and you have nothing left for him at all. Then you can be as ruthless as you want to be.

Mark

No, she didn't agree with my WH. But she didn't agree with me either. I think she tried not to 'take sides' for now and that worked for my WH because he responded quite well to the first MC session. The MC told us that our main problem is the differences in our value systems. But to work on that, we need to first try to restore the love. Then work on a proper way of communication, then work on the differences. It is then we can discuss issues like whether an EA is an A or not etc.

We were doing ok for the first part (restoring love) until my WH former colleagues (whom he kept in contact everyday) told him that the OW told others that my WH lied to her. That started his 'crusade' of wanting to find out the 'truth' but to me, it is really just an excuse to call the OW and to see her. I only remember that MB said that once NC is broken, the withdrawal will be set back to zero again so I reacted very strongly when he told me that he called the OW (already) and wanted to arrange to meet her. That ended up in a huge argument that almost pushed him to move out.



I wish I could find someone who would do that too because I had hoped very much he would see the hurt and pain I am going through instead of brushing it aside. But my WH is a very head strong man. He doesn't like to be told that he is wrong and he always like to be the one who is winning. I guess the counsellor see that in him and thus hasn't been pushing the fault down his throat like me.



Just to clarify, you mean I 'do' have to identify (not 'don't) his top love busters right? I know the importance of that but he is not communicating with me and thus I can only guess but will not know for sure. I do know (for now) he totally hates me snooping. Doesn't like me to act pitiful. Doesn't like me to 'restrict his freedom' by asking where he is going and when he is coming back etc. Doesn't like me to restrict the way he handles his friendship with other females. But the thing is, in cases like these, if I stop those LB behaviors such as snooping, asking him to act appropriately towards other females, then I am not sure if that will lead him through another round of EA again! What should I do?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

jcool,

My point was that you can strive to stop all love busters and have the bases covered without knowing specifically what his top LB is. If you stop all love busting you hit the most important and avoid even minor withdrawals from his LB$ as well.
And since all love busters are detrimental, avoiding all of them should be our goal any way.

ENs are a little more critical to figure out since you could spend all your time doing things that go unnoticed, whereas with love busters, NOT doing any of them is avoiding the critical ones as well.

Sounds to me like your MC is at least aware of Dr Harley's ideas. Restoring the love between you is Dr H's first goal, since everything else is a lost cause unless that happens along the way.

That is what Plan A is all about, rebuilding the love that has been lost.

I wish I knew what to tell you as to how to break through to him and make him see what he has done and is doing and that it is wrong...It has to come from him. He has to see it.

Mark