Aph
I am confused why you can't tell yoiur husband. It can not take too long to state:

I have had X amount of affairs, but I love you and am extremely remoresful. I would like for us to work hard and make this the best marriage possible for both of us.

After that, if it "floods" him, he can leave, but eventually I would suspect he will come back and ask for details.

I also notice above you do not mention meeting your H needs for SF?? Is this because of his medical problem or are you still actively involved with OM?

Plan A is inappropriate prior to your disclosure. He will likely view your Plan A efforts as a charade, a false front designed to mislead him and thus any positive effects will be lost. A Plan A at this time looks bad. You have much “bigger fish to fry” then Plan A at this point.

Your posts show that you are an intelligent woman and I suspect that you are on more than equal footing with your husband in most any discussion. Use that brain power to make yourself heard; after all, it is you that hold the most important pieces of your marriage, not your husband nor his job chase, nor his financial concerns nor his issues with storage sheds and the like. All of that pales in compression to the information that you have failed to disclose. Even his own indiscretions fall outside any excuse or reason you provide us not to disclose.

You cannot stay here and receive support if you fail to disclose. You have a job to do, a responsibility and your time is at hand.

To say the words to your husband, “I have had an affair,” might be the most difficult thing you have ever done but there is NOTHING that stands in your way of saying those words, especially your husband.

Mr. G

Uh huh.

Aphaeresis, it continues to be all about you, doesn't it? This is something that, imho, you really need to think about because it can stand in your way of your desired recovery of your marriage.

So let's talk about this a little, and if not provide you with the answer to your question "WTH?! ," perhaps give you a couple of things to think about.

Perhaps you noticed that the VAST majority of people posting on that thread were VERY new to MB, most were Wayward Spouses themselves, and most were sharing "wonderful help" such as "yes, I know how you feel, I feel or felt the same way." Up to a point, sympathy and empathy are fine. But they really don't offer much in the way of "practical help." That requires "confronting" behavior that needs changing and the reality of what "needs" to be done.

There ARE differences in how help is offered to every poster, but if you want to "Feel Better" that some "2x4's" were also included in the responses, check out Pepperband's posts. I copied one and thought about posting it here for you to see, but then thought it really has little bearing on the problem that YOU are dealing with that is different from what cardsonly was dealing with. (btw, I think OWL recommended that thread because he was the "primary old timer" posting on that thread)

As you may have also noted, I didn't post to that thread and most "oldtimers" didn't post, or post much to that thread. We (meaning members who have "been around here for a long time") make choices about who we post to based primarily on two considerations. First, we post to those who we think we might be able to help in some way. Second we post according to how much time we have available, because no one can post to everyone, or at best can only do an occasional "drive by" post but not be involved in a long term attempt to provide some help.

So WHAT might be the "difference" in posting "tone" that cardsonly was getting and what you've been receiving, other than that commiseration of "like minded wayward spouses who are also very early in their own presence on MB?"

BTW, I really didn't read any of cardsonly's thread until you posted your "WTH" response. All I did was locate the thread for you. Side note: it is interesting that OWL recommended that thread to you as he was the primary "old timer" poster there. You'll have to ask him WHY he thought it would be helpful to you. I have some ideas as to why, but you really should get the reason from the "horses mouth" rather than by way of my speculations.

Anyway, back to your "WTH" question.

There is a marked difference in the attitudes of you and cardsonly that comes through in the posting. She was struggling with getting through withdrawal whereas you claimed not withdrawal. She saw her affair as wrong, completely wrong, whereas you saw yourself as the "goddess of love" to the various OM's. She had ONE online affair. You had MULTIPLE physical affairs. She was accepting of advice, you have "battled" virtually everyone. She was not trying to find excuses, you have found excuses for virtually everything. In addition, most of those posting to her, aside from being very early in their own recovery efforts, were women. Women tend to gravitate to the more "emotional" identification and men tend to gravitate to the more "logical" in their posting "styles" and content.

But, there is hope still that I see for your marriage, IF changes are actually implemented. That is partly why I still post to you even though you have said some pretty ugly things and have even requested that I stop posting to you one of your threads (which I have done if you have noticed).



This is yet another example of where you continue to "filter" things through your own lens and only allow yourself to see what you want to see.

I can tell you that I have seen very little "remorse" from you. All you have said is that you now think your affairs were "wrong." That's a logical conclusion, but it's not remorse. I suspect that part of the reason is that you don't believe in "sin," just actions that could cause hurt to someone else. It's hard to feel remorse when all one sees is a "bad choice" (all adultery IS a 'bad choice') and not the spiritual, moral, and emotional degradation to BOTH the Wayward Spouse and the Betrayed Spouse.

THAT is why I have been stressing to you that IF Secular Humanism is your chosen "faith," and it is even though you don't like thinking of it in those terms, THEN you need to "surrender" your "rights of choice" to the beliefs of Secular Humanism as "the authority" for guiding your choices in life.

Unlike Myschae, who is also an admitted atheist, she rejects ALL forms of faith other than faith in her own ability to "reason" and make choices on her own. She is accountable ONLY to herself. She chooses "bits and pieces" of other faiths, i.e., the "Golden Rule" as her Moral Compass, but she retains the right to "choose for herself" and not submit her will to anything "outside" of herself.

It works for her, or so it seems. But you and your husband have chosen Secular Humanism.

I also find it very interesting, and telling, that your husband is working on a speech for a Secular Humanism meeting on Sunday. Can't you see the "irony," of "hypocrisy" if you prefer, of his standing up as an "example" of Secular Humanism when he is, obviously, NOT being "obedient" himself TO all the tenets of SecHum?

Once again, this is WHY I said previously that you BOTH need to be not just "revealing all" about your affairs, you both need to be talking about the tenets of SecHum and WHY they should "have control" over your individual, and marital, lives.

For the same reason that I talk with professing Christians about OBEYING God's tenets, I am stressing obedience to SecHum for you. It is NOT a "salvation" issue. It is that a "faith" does not allow its "followers" to "pick and choose" the rules they want to follow and the rules they don't want to follow.

Aphaeresis, in my opinion, based solely upon what you have written so far, your husband (and you to a lesser degree) is a major "Conflict Avoider." MANY people are. We ALL have times when we prefer conflict avoidance over DEALING with reality. But your husband seems to have made CA a part of "who he is." Once again, that is another example of WHY you have been receiving "2x4's" that stress the REAL NEED for CHANGES in both of you. Obviously he is NOT here on MB, you are. So we can't talk to him directly, but rest assured that HE would get some "straight talk" too if he were posting here.

The issue is NOT one person gets a "caring, gentle" response and another gets a "2x4." The issue is each person individually gets responses based almost entirely on the content of their posting and the attitude that it conveys, since no one here can hear tone, inflection, etc. or see physical manifestations of "remorse."

You are being "honest" in your responses as to how you feel. People responding are also being "honest" in their responses.

You have displayed some interesting responses to me personally that I believe are based in your "abhorence" for anything you perceive as being of a "religious based" nature. Yet you don't see SecHum as a "religion" either and have felt (both you and your husband) that you CAN "pick and choose" which of the SecHum beliefs you will accept and which you will reject.

THAT is NOT "being honest" to your chosen faith nor is it being honest with yourselves. It "allows" for entitlement, for selfishness, for doing whatever is considered "relative" to your feelings, wants, and desires, but it DOES NOT allow for a remorseful, surrendered, life.

It is these "core beliefs" that are held by you and by your husband that are "at issue" and "in need of" close examination. Only you, and your husband, individually, can CHOOSE. The consequences personally and for your marriage WILL be a result of those "core beliefs" and the willingness or unwillingness to surrender your will to them. Without that willingness, all things will remain "relative" and the "moment" will give each of you the "Right" to violate them whenever you "feel like it."

All, I'm not convinced that he doesn't know. He acts like he does know, and I've used the word "infidelities" once when describing what I've done so I can't see how he could not know.

grindnfool,


He would view it as salt in the wound at a time when he can't handle it. He would also interpret it as a deliberate attempt to hurt him, and I'd lose any chance I had at saving the marriage.


It's because of his medical problem and also because he's too angry at me. My involvement with OMs never affected our sex life except to the extent that I stopped asking for certain things he doesn't like to do anyway.

I've had some limited online contact of a platonic nature from my first OM, but I'm thinking about what to say in an NC email. The only reason I didn't send him one already is because he is, well was, my best friend and I was afraid that if my husband really did divorce me I'd have no one to help me recover or at least talk me down from a ledge. I never hear from him on the weekends anyway so I have until Monday to write something. I cut everyone else loose back in May, mostly by being unreachable. I'll definitely send something Monday or before then.

My husband's activities apparently didn't last very long, and he says he's already out of contact. Not that I was grilling him, of course, just asked that one question. His answer in my mind confirmed that I really need to write that NC letter.

Mr. G,


I'm sure he knows. He doesnt' want to think about it, but that's not the same as being in the dark. And he knows I'm not hiding it from him. The letter is out in the open for him to read anytime he is ready.


FH,


LOL! Yes, that's what I've been trying to explain. He's the biggest CA I've ever met. Ironically it's one of the things that drew me to him. Growing up in my FOO there was a screaming match in the house every 2-3 days and I didn't want any more of that.


Right now I can't even get him to look at any of the website, unfortunately.

UPDATE:

Thought about my spending habits and decided I was caving in to kids' demands too much. I told my H I thought I should let him hold onto my debit cards not forever but for a little while and I'd have some cash I'd use only in emergencies. Plus, he volunteered to do all our shopping.

There's been some improvment in one area. He's been avoiding affection because he's angry, but he held me for a while last night after I offered him something and said I don't expect anything in return. He said no but that he appreciates the offer and put his arm around me.

FH,

Since you brought me into this, I feel I should clarify a few things.


This really isn't accurate.

For one thing, I'm not entirely sure I understand the term "submit her will" so perhaps this is a specious argument, but I take it to mean "take direction from or follow" some outside set of rules.

The truth is that I do that all the time. I live in the U.S. I don't break laws (well, ok, I might have fractured a few speed limits here and there but I don't even do that much). I don't like paying taxes but I do anyway. I don't like all the new rules at airports (does anyone?) and yet, I follow those, too. Overall, I'm a pretty law abiding person.

I'll admit it would be nice not to be accountable to anyone, but that's hardly realistic if you want to simultaneously live in a society.


Yes, it does.

Aphaeresis,

I apologize for the brief threadjack. I don't know much about SecHum. I read through the manifesto you posted - didn't look real close but didn't find much I'd disagree with, either.

It is remarkable how many "bits and pieces" of all the faiths are shared, if you think about it or ever look.

Anyway, you might be right. Your H might know but choose to be in denial. I guess my question to you is: Where does that leave you right now?

Limbo is a tough place to be.

As someone mentioned, building up the relationship only to blow it up seems like a bad idea. You know him best - so answer this question for me if you can.

When he makes you wait to tell him bad news - does he at then take responsibility for getting the news in a delayed fashion? Or, are you being a little set up here for a "Why didn't you tell me this sooner so I could .... " scenario?

Mys

Your friendly, neighborhood athiest

Mys,


Mostly with pleasant interactions but with the underlying knowledge that everything is NOT ok. No sex, very little affection. But, we're talking about finding something recreationally we can do together, which I think will help. I like to solve things right away, but this is something that has to happen slowly over time. When he gets a job, we'll be able to talk more directly about what I did and about the marriage. But at least now we're both operating under the assumption that we'll stay together.


He's never set me up like that, and I don't think he ever would. It's not in his nature. The closest he's come to something like that is telling me to stop "nagging" him and then ask me why I didn't remind him of something or another I stopped "nagging" him about. But that's mostly because his memory is not so good.

Update: sent NC letter I needed to send. I felt guilty for not sending it, yet I feel guilty for sending it just now. I don't get that. Doesn't matter, I guess, it's done.

Congratulations on sending the NC letter. That's one step in the process of recovering your marriage that was needed.

Why you "feel guilty" is due to many factors, but I'm guessing that a significant one for your is your belief to "not be the cause of hurt" to someone. The unfortunate reality about adultery is someone WILL get hurt, there is no getting around that consequence. The "difference" in "who gets hurt" is really a matter of deciding that is should NOT be your husband, and any continued contact for any reason with anyone that was an affair partner WILL cause great pain to a spouse.

So that was "one small step for a woman, one giant leap for your marriage."

One down, perhaps 4 more to go?

Myschae - "specious?"

Let me ask you something then. There are a set of "laws" that YOU choose to obey because you see them as "in your best interest," "to avoid a penalty that could be imposed on you," or because you simple "feel like" it's the best thing to do so you choose to act on those feelings.

But what happens when you "don't feel like" it?

It would seem that you retain the "authority" to choose for yourself what you will and what you will not "obey." You do not surrender that "authority" to anyone else so that they have the "authority" to tell you what to do whether you like what they are saying or not.

So it's not a simple issue of you choosing to "take direction from or follow" some outside set of rules. The "authority" remains in your hands and you get to decide what is "right" and what is "wrong" and what you will or will not choose to "obey."

In short, you retain the right of "Sovereign" choice in your life and do not "cede" that throne of sovereignty to anyone else.

Assuming that everyone else would have the same right to determine by "Sovereign fiat" for themselves, if everyone started implementing that right, where do you think that would lead?

Granted, a lot of this has to do with the question of "what IS the purpose of "man," since we DO exist?"

If there is no "higher authority" than the individual and there is "nothing" after we die, what is the likely result of everyone living for the "moment" and for the "here and now" only, based solely in what each individual "wants?"

FH,

I moved my reply to "Other Topics" (and took the liberty of copying your post) in order to avoid thread jacking this thread - which is important to the recovery of a marriage.

Thanks,

Mys

Aph, I just read your "found out" thread. Sorry to hear about your DH. Sounds like you've both been lonely and disappointed with the status quo.

Nevertheless, don't let him go too long without disclosure. I suspect he's distressed, and at some time may decide what you did can't possibly as bad as he thought or that it was even worse. He'll have a hard time reconciling his Truth to your Truth if he gets to making up the story in his own head. Just a thought.

Would someone please help with this? I don't know what to do, although I just KNEW this would happen. I wanted to prepare in case it would, and it has. Sigh.

He's picking at me over stupid stuff because he doesn't want to talk about why he's really mad. If I wasn't convinced before that he knew, I sure am now. For example, I cleaned the room. He complained he couldn't find anything. I showed him where all his stuff is. He said it's makes me mad that all my napkins are in a pile because I like one over here to set my drink on. So I said sorry and pointed out the positives like we could sit on the couch now.

Another time he didn't like how I backed out of the garage.

Then today, I opened the garage door, and saw that he blocked me in. I closed the garage door and went upstairs to tell him. When he got back down he saw I had closed it and told me it was a waste of electricity. I said, well you never know, someone could have snuck in and stolen something.

I was able to keep these incidents from turning into fights by my tone of voice, but how long is he going to find something stupid to criticize me for? And how do I keep from getting annoyed?

by finally talking about the elephant in the room

you two dance around each other
never with each other

both of you

FH,


Thanks!




Not really. See, with the last OM, I told him when he left town that it would be better if we did not talk after saying goodbye because I wanted to focus on my marriage. So that's already done. There are some others who would contact me if they saw me online, so I just make sure I'm not seen online. No NC necessary unless they email me at some point in time which might not ever happen. It's not like we were in regular contact anymore, and friends do sometimes drift apart over time. So I just let them drift.

I've been similarly avoiding my ex-bf, although sooner or later he's likely to send me an email. I might have to send him an NC letter in the future but I figure there's no reason to worry about it unless and until I hear from him again. Unless you all think that's a big mistake and I should email him now; it's just that we've been out of contact now for a while anyway.

Consider this: If you have truly "seen the light" about adultery as NOT being an "option," let alone a good option, for dealing with the perceived and/or real "shortcomings" in your husband....

Burn the bridges so there can BE no "escape route" when the "Battle" seems to be getting tough.

Speaking of getting "tough,"....there's your latest post that bears some "tough talk" commentary.

For a long time, and you haven't even dropped the "marital nuclear bomb" yet.





Get a divorce.

If "getting annoyed" is the problem, recovery is out of the question.





He's not "ready" to deal with it yet. Isn't that the reason and the excuse you have been stating all along for why YOU won't tell him "all the truth." You KNOW him and he's not ready. NOW you want him to be ready to talk about "what's really bothering him?"





"Positives" for YOU. But what did it really say to him? YOU are going to do whatever you feel like doing no matter what HE likes or doesn't like. You can "justify" all selfish behavior all day long, but whether it is "practical" (can sit on the couch) or not isn't the issue. That's a "training issue" that involves the long slow process of changing habits and differences in personality types.

Aph, this has been HIS place and now you are "there you go again" attempting to "control things" again. He sees these actions as invading his turf and more evidence that it will be "your way or the highway." And we've not even got to the "Who's bed will you sleep in tonight" issues that are REALLY going to be "annoying."





"Thank you mommy."

If you are "neat freak" and he is not (that's my wife and I), then you are going to have to compromise on "neat" and "messy" areas. I have my office, basement, and garage that NEED to be cleaned up and straightened up, but they are MY areas and my wife leaves them to me to do in my own good time. Yes, she will comment from time to time about what she'd like to see, but she has now "earned" the right to talk to me like a wife and not from a "Wayward Spouse" standpoint.

Know the difference. Know what battles to fight and what are unnecessary skirmishes.

For my part, I KNOW the areas of the house that she wants NEAT and clean. She has a "fetish" about my napkins, so I limit myself to just a few next to my chair, but she would prefer NO napkins. If there are "Too many," either I will thin them out to 2 or 3 or she will toss them in the garbage.

It's a "dance" of differing personalities. She throws them out, I don't get upset anymore, I simply go get some more and replenish the supply, being careful to NOT have more than 2 or 3 at any one time.





Here's the "famous" MB question that is most often said to Betrayed Spouses who are seeking to get their WS to end their affair(s) and recommit to attempting recovery, but it applies equally well to you since YOU are the one who wants to recover your marriage...

Do you want to married or do you want to be right?

Think about it.

It has a LOT to with attitude and how you react to your perceptions.

It has a lot to do with being sensitive to your spouse's needs at the given time.

I've said it before, Aphaeresis, the "it's all about you" mindset continues to be biggest impediment to recovering your marriage that YOU will have to deal with and change. If you don't change it to "thee" and "us," your husband will eventually let you have yourself.

Think about it.

Hi Aph and FH,



This is a big part of why our recovery is progressing with fewer and fewer bumps in the trail. (Plus our MC thumps us upside da head regularly. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />)

Thanks, FH....very well said. (At least for me, and I still need all the help I can get!) Also, it's amazing how when I give or he gives, our perception of 'being right' changes, often enhancing our 'being married'. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Ace

PS Also, I appreciate your 'kinder-gentler' tone, FH. We women are a bit sensitive in that way. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

ROFL!!

The older the dog, the longer it takes to train him in new behaviors! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

FH,


But that's just it. I'm not, and he sometimes complains about the mess. So I was trying to meet his need for DS and he criticized the way I did it. I didn't clean for my sake, I did it for him.

I want to save the marriage, but I don't know how I can when he puts a negative spin on everything I do. I feel like I can't do anything right. I feel sad and hopeless.

Everytime he criticizes me I feel like he'll never forgive me. I know recovery takes a long time but I wish I could just get him to believe it's possible or even worth trying.

I suspect that part of the problem is that you just did it without first obtaining his "agreement" that cleaning was needed. You have to stop trying to be a mind reader and realize that POJA needs to be invoked whenever something you want to do will also have an impact on him. Bringing him into the proposed "plan" shows care and consideration of his feelings and needs. If he simply says "do what you think is needed," then he has given his assent and can't react with anger because even if he does, he will know that he already gave his tacit approval.

If you don't get his "approval" first, then he can "see" it as you simply doing whatever you want to do and then he has to "live with it." That fosters anger and resentment, two killers of any recovery attempt. It isn't important if you are right and he has indicated in the past that DS was important to him. What is important NOW is to do things that foster recovery, not resentment and anger.

Practice the MB rules, don't just know what they are but decide "your situation is different and you don't need to follow all of them."




This is no doubt an exaggeration, but it is also part of the recovery process wherein every emotional response seems magnified tenfold.




In my estimation you are way too early for this thought process because you are not in Recovery yet. You can't be until everything has been confessed, forgiveness sought and granted, and commitments to try to recover the marriage are made.

What happens with this sort of thinking is that Conflict Avoidance kicks in and excuses for NOT dealing with the infidelities are made. Somewhere down the road, confessions will eventually be made and all the "effort" up to that time will seem like a lie and a joke.

There is NO getting around the devastation of adultery and the emotional impact is deep and the wounds are gaping. It WILL, even with confession, repentance, forgiveness and a willingness to even try to rebuild be a LONG process. As long as issues continue to swept under the rug and "guessing games" played, Recovery can't happen anymore than a room is really cleaned just by moving the dirt around and hiding it under a rug. Sooner or later it makes it's presence known and the cleaning is seen as being false and insincere.