Question:

If I say something like:

"Don't call what you are doing an affair, call it ADULTERY"

is this a 2X4

?

I agree, and I also agree with my sig line below.

Who gets to be the judge though, when you get into judging motivations?

Some people are just more caustic than others, and some people are not quite to a place of calm serenity and it shows in their posts.

I have grown quite a bit since I first started posting, but still I have days when I am caustic and not very gentle.

I am able to rectify the conflict between what I have quoted by you, and what I have quoted by Voltaire with the knowledge I have gained that we are all, the giver and the receiver of the posts in question...growing, learning and healing.

I can no longer differentiate between the two.

When I post to someone I am in varying stages of growth, learning and healing myself, and vice versa.

In other words the one giving the advice and the one receiving it are not all that different.

We learn from each other, and the therapy goes both ways.

Star, you are one of the vets, but you still learn as much as you teach each time you get involved with another person or thread.

I have always respected and loved Mel for her steadfast defense of each and every persons right to post as they see fit. She can dish it out that is a fact, but she is just as staunch in the support of others being able to do the same...or not. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Does that make any kind of sense at all? I know I have a valid point in there some where. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Sometimes I think that those who are delivering the type of posts you allude to are going through some kind of learning process through their posts, and eventually end up being as gentle and kind in their posts as those who have long since travelled that road.

So, if you look at it from that perspective, it is all good.

Hmmmm...good question Pep. I see that as a DEMAND, no words in there to indicate to the person you are speaking to that you care...and are hoping to help them in any way.

Just a DEMAND of what you think something should be.

What about "You collectively have the eye rolling, smart mouthed attitude that no one but our own flesh and blood parents will put up with"?

2x4? or loving confrontation? or neither?

Fox

Neither. It's a judgement.

Agreed.

But why would the inclusion of loving, caring words make it any different than what it is?

This was my point (that I didn't state very well) in a disagreement going on within my thread.

My take on that particular discussion was that I was being told to shut up and sit down because no one could learn from me.

I know that is false. I know I have good things to say. I also know there is so much wisdom here and I really want to hear what others have to say, even when I don't agree.

Thank you, Orchid, so much for this thread. I think it is a good coming together of people who are at odds to see each others views without direct interaction.

Although I knew better, I lumped vets in as 1 group. Mainly because I was given an opinion on why vets (as a group) didn't frequent some of the threads. and I took it as a possible truth. That was wrong of me. I'm glad to see vets out there with this caring attitude.

I think some may stay out of the fray because they've seen how some arguments get going and head quickly downhill with personal attacks. These arguments take away from the poster they are trying to help.



Excellent. I hope one day (far in the future) to be one of these posters myself. Thank you so much to those that already are. WAT (wherever you are), Mr. Wondering, Orchid, thank you specifically for being this kind of poster to me. (I'm sorry if I've left any out, I'm sure there are more, just not at the top of my head at the moment)

Fox

Fox

"I think what you did could provide quite a bit of insight as to why your husband was left feeling vulnerable for an affair."

What about comments like this one?

*I agree with starfish, I think 2x4's are necessary, but it's the delivery that is important. I've seen the ole "I was just giving a 2x4" to cover for some pretty downright mean things being said.

so it is NOT a 2X4?

This is funny to me, because I don't think of it as a "demand" at all ... I offer it as my opinion of what something really is ... adultery not affair.

Thanks for your opinion <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

seems like an opinion to me

and a possibly valuable one at that !

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Fox,

I didn't read the thread you infer to, so I cannot comment.

I do know that the biggest two by four I ever delivered was to myself. And it was in the form of an attack on Lemmonman. And it had absolutely nothing at all to do with him, it had everything to do with me and some anger I had going on inside.

I still feel bad about it, and so with that 2x4 to Lem that ricoche'd (sp) right back to me and stuck in my forhead, I learned a huge lesson.

Lemmonman, if you are still reading, I am still very sorry over that awful post.

So, Star, from my expereinced I learned that if the motives are not pure and are not to help someone then the giver has some things to work through, and they are not any less than the person they are posting to.



We all have a right to be here, and a right to say things however we need to at that time in our development.

BWhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I was just being Socratic <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

'cause it does. How's that for an answer. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

It comes down to respect. Demanding that I do something is for YOU, being loving and caring in your words is for ME. Giver/taker. If you are loving and caring for ME (giving to me and I take), than I in turn am more likely to be loving and caring with YOU (me giving back and you taking). Win/win.

If I am demanded to do something (you are taking from me), I am more likely to demand back (I am taking something from you). I didn't get what I wanted, you didn't get what you wanted. Lose/lose.

Fox

I see it as a demand because the phrase was "call it..." The person being spoken to is being told what to do. It wasn't stated "I believe, or my opinion is, that it is adultery not an affair"

The person being spoken to is told what to say and what to think from your point of view. If someone said to you "call it an affair, not adultery". Does that make it different for you?

Not a 2x4 to me. How was that statement going to help the person being spoken to? and isn't that what 2x4 are supposed to do?

Fox

[color:"red"] Suzet, you said:[/color]


there are many many times I neither love nor care about someone posting here, who is doing horrible things that demean themselves and hurt their family members

My question for you, Suzet:

[b]Do you love and care for everyone you post to on a public message/opinion board? Is that a requirement you have before you offer advice/opinions?

Just curious ... because, to me, this seems a most unreasonable expectation of yourself or others

Pep,

Not to me. Probably because it addresses an "action". An example of what *I* would call a 2x4 along the same subject line might be: "Don't call sliding between some wh*re's legs an affair, call it ADULTERY. The added language doesn't add to the truth....it adds to the drama and it adds to the pain. They're both truthful. They're both blunt. They're both clear. One of the saddest parts.....is that kind of highly charged language evokes incredibly strong images that are triggering and hurtful to the BSs.....not just humiliating for the WSs who need "waking up". It incites hate and adds to the pain. Your example is a great wakeup....it doesn't need the added drama.

"Please, don't call it an affair, it is ADULTRY, honey."

"Well, I think it is better termed an affair, adultry sounds so ugly, sweetheart."

"Yes dear, and that is why you must call it ADULTRY."


Well, maybe it will go down better with a teaspoon of sugar, Fox.

But my point is nobody has the right to tell someone else how to talk while he tries to get his point across. And I think you agree with that.

If I want to say something in a nasty, caustic manner that is my RIGHT. Even though for me, I have learned that it doesn't do ME any good. So I am learning to talk nicer, and more gentler.

This is what I learn from posting to other people here.

On this board though, I think you are more likely to be heard if you are not so gentle and nice. That is what I observe quite frequently.

So who knows. I am sure it is all good though.

[color:"red"] Fox said: [/color]


I disagree,I think it is a 2X4-lite ... using the correct term for something is NOT disrespectful <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> it is addressing reality

it IS adultery
no matter how much it pains people to use the correct word

and the pain of the correct word can be eye-opening , I've seen it be useful <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Believe me, it helps break through the fog ... if you ask an adulteror if they are an adulteror, many times they will say something foggy like; "No, my feelings are real."

LOL

I don't agree that this might be too much drama, I think it might be just enough for someone to get your point.

If I were a WS, I wouldn't know the difference between the terms affair and adultry, unless someone pointed it out to me. It would have taken a very long time for the statement Pep used to sink in, as opposed to your graffic way of putting it. I would have gotten that right away. IE (affair is too nice a word for what you are doing).

I see your meaning, but lets take it slightly out of context for a moment.

Rather than on this board, I'm walking down the street. Say I'm going into a restaraunt.

And I see a couple standing outside, obviously fighting. There are other couples around...even children present.

And the man is calling her filthy, vile, caustic names. Say she cheated on him, if you like, and he's hurt, angry, the same state all of us were in when we hit d-day. But, he's in a PUBLIC PLACE (like this forum)...and he's calling a filthy, wh***, a nasty @#$#@, you cheating piece of %$#@!...and it goes on.

Should everyone ignore it, act like nothing's happening?

Should they let their kids see it?

Should we think, or even say, that the woman deserved to be talked to like that for cheating?

Should they say something to diffuse the situation, to remind the man that he's in public, and kids are present?

If we're in a public place...like this forum, and someone is behaving in that kind of manner...do we just ignore it? Say its not my place? Say that the poster deserved to be talked to like that? Say something to try to calm the situation down? Because this IS a public forum. ANYONE can come here. Its really not any different than being out on the street, or in a restaruant, or anyplace else.

Thoughts?

I have been bashed plenty and lived.

The thing that makes me feel ashamed (and I have no desire to repeat it) is the unjustified bashing I've done to others. It, along with the harm I see in my being here, has kept me away (for the most part).

I agree with star*fish that "tough love" often isn't a good description of what happens here. Tough love is best reserved for someone we love, not strangers on a message board.

Pep asked if calling it Adultery instead of Affair is a 2x4. No way! All she's doing is removing the romantic notion perpetuated by movies like "An Affair to Remember" or "Bridges of Madison County". I also dislike (strongly) the use of the word "lover" for the OM/OW. Language is very important...

Would I use a 2x4 against someone if I thought it were justified? Yes, I might.... and I might not. I think it would depend on many factors. What I know for sure is that I'm human... and although I try not to let my emotions get the best of me I don't always succeed. Sometimes, when I see someone doing what I did, and falling into the same traps, I just want to shake them!! I can't do that, so I shake them with words. Not always shining moments for me, but again, I was doing the best I could at the time... and felt strongly about what I was saying.