I'm sitting here in a state of shock. Wow, you guys really help take a fire hose to the bullsh*t I'd let accumulate.

Well, I guess I have a lot to think about.

I was almost regretting posting last night because I was scared people would think I was a troll. When I re-read the story it sounded made-up or crazy. Thank you all for listening to me. Even those of you who said insulting things to me. I know it's just your pain talking and it helped remind me of what I could be creating.

The bottom line, this is not me. This is not who I am. You're right, there isn't a justification.

I do know quite a bit about his personal life, but not through him, just through all of our mutual friends/contacts. His situation with his W is unusual and I didn't want to disclose the details as it's an easy identifier. Let's just say, I know indisputably what is going on there. Does it make it less wrong? No, I guess no, but I seriously wouldn't hurt another woman the way I was. I know just reading what I wrote you won't believe that and I understand. I can't elaborate further, you'll have to just believe that I'd be honest with the relevant details.

And this wasn't as calculated as you may think. I have been shocked and saddened at the "happily" married men that have hit on me over the last five years. I think this is part of my malaise about marriage and love. When I was overweight and unattractive (one can still be attractive while overweight--I wasn't) I swear I was invisible. I had no clue what was really going on all around me. My social and interpersonal dynamics between men and women are retarded (for lack of a better word). If I wanted to hurt my WH and seek revenge I could have done it long ago. This one kind of came out of blue. But I used my H's past to justify not stopping things long before I should have.

The OM in this case would have just used me. You are correct. I would have been a trophy for him and nothing more and he would have moved on. He is used to people doing what he wants and getting what he wants because he's rich. Because of my previous life-experiences I tend to not care much about what other people think and I've never humored him or pretended to care when I didn't. He saw me as somewhat of a challenge. My H describes all of OM's interactions with me as nothing more than a fishing expedition. He says he can hear the fishing reel spin and he warned me long ago that the OM was interested in more than my expertise.

I suffer no illusions he would take care of me. I just envisioned the fantasy for a day--I live a modest life, I have a thriving business but I don't require a lot to be happy in terms of material items. But I work very, very hard and the idea of being picked up by a private plane, met by a driver and taken to meet the OM for our next deposition in Aug was unreal. I've never, ever lived that life and I never will. I just wanted to close my eyes and pretend for one day. I keep telling myself I can still do it and not have sex but I'm not so sure. In the course of writing this note, OM has texted my cell phone 4 times. I suppose you all are right and this has already become an EA. But to me it feels like a game, I do not feel an emotional investment. I suppose the proof will come in how easy it is to stop huh?

I need to stop. You all are right.

I will tell my dh (I don't even think of him as WH anymore LOL) more about where this was heading. He knows pretty much everything I've written already and he doesn't like talking about it.

I think that's where my ache is--I WANT to be able to tell him things and have him be desperately interested in it. The way I would be with him. Getting out info from him when it comes to uncomfortable feelings is like pulling teeth. And sharing my own with him is like inflicting something on him.

I do know he would not leave me if I did this. He feels so guilty about his A that he has told me before that if I decide to use a "get out of jail free" card that I'm only allowed once. I've truly never been interested before. My H is very attractive and sexy and ******, he loved me when no one else did. No man could really compare.

I'm just so restless. But you're right, this isn't the way to relieve it. I'm not a silly stupid girl, I know better than than this. Maybe I'll join a gym. Or maybe I should join H at his dojo and learn a thing or two about self-control and how to release aggression.

And someone wrote that I should see a therapist, you're right, I think I will.

P--thank you for saying this, I need to consider this as well. Maybe I am trying to create intimacy through shared experiences, I don't know. My H has also told in some ways he'd be relieved if I had an A and got it over with. I think that hurt my feelings a lot. I took it to mean that he didn't care enough to want to prevent that at all costs, you know? Maybe I wanted him to see that it's not that simple.

Complicated.

1 Corinthians 10:13


"No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it."

JA,

Your last response really interested me. You stated
But, you still have not forgiven him. YOu still have not let him back into your life. You would have as I stated earlier given him an excuse to justify his affair. But, what you don't understand is that he is suffering for what he did, and the people here are trying to prevent you doing the same...only worse. You see YOU KNOW it how it feels, and you would be setting out with a PLAN to do this...revenge. He did not try to hurt you although he did deeply. You would be doing that.

However, you said more. Has it occured to you that he may have put walls up to protect himself because he knows you hold that "get out of jail care" and continue to do so? Do you think you wanting to have a ONS or an affair with another man does not hurt him? Do you think he fears intimate discussions with you because he expects how everything is his fault? Do you think that he fears these discussions because he is not sure how to handle them? I ask these questions for a purpose. If you suspect ANYTHING I have said may be true, then there are ways and strategies for overcoming them and developing the tools to have such conversations in a way that is not painful to you or him.




Think about this very carefully because I don't think you appreciate the significance of what you have just said. He would not leave you why? He loves you. He wants you in his life. But, there is more really. You KNOW that he has deep guilt about his A. I wonder if you have failed to forgive him and become close again because you cherish your "get out of jail card" more than you do him. Think about this for a moment. His guilt would force him to allow you to betray him. Do you have any idea how heavy that guilt must be for you to be so sure that he would NOT leave you. I think you know and I think you use it on him.

You need to really think about this. It is a bad sign for your marriage if you are really willing to let this hang over his head for the rest of his life and keep that "get out of jail free card". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />



Think about this for a moment. He chose you when no one else did. He is very attractive, and sexy and *****. In short if you two divorce he would NOT be hurting for female companionship YET...there he is. Do YOU know why he is still there with you? Ask him, and then really listen to his answer from HIS point of view NOT through your filter. You might be surprised. He sees things in you that make you very special and it is not just appearance.

Yes I think exercise would be good but even better would be shared recreation with your H.

Please consider these things. This isn't just about your current choice. It is about the future of your marriage.

God Bless,

JL

JL, I don't know the answer to most of those questions. He acts like the idea of me having an affair is inevitable, when I've never, ever intimated I would have one. I think year and after year I've finally gotten to the point where I'm like, "okay, fine, you want me to even the score so badly, then let's get 'er done and move on!" I've asked him if he wants to come with me on the trip I have to go and he says, no, that it's unnecessary. He talks about how he can't stand OM but that he knows why OM would want me. I've told him repeatedly that OM is harmless and that OM does this to EVERY female he comes in contact with and it's just how he communicates. But lately OM has amped up considerably and in fact, today he even made me slightly uncomfortable with his demands, his aggression, and his lack of a sense of humor. He's a thousand miles away right now and left me feeling this way, I'm almost dreading the in person version.

I'm in over my head. I'm just starting to realize this. I don't want this. I convinced myself I did. I don't want to hurt my H but I want him to SAY SOMETHING. Like, "****** no you're not going" or I don't know, to freaking care! You may be right that his own guilt is paralyzing him. But how is that my doing?? It's not like I've been dangling men in front of him for 5 years straight and tormenting the poor guy. He constantly complains that I'm clueless about when men are interested in me. I tell him it's because I don't care anyhow so I don't analyze it. One of reasons he fell in love with me was because he said, that I didn't "get by" in the world on my looks. I imagine in some regards he would be repulsed by my twitterpation over this obvious flattery. Is it justifiable? I don't know at this point, I'm very overwhelmed and confused. I told him why would someone go through SO much trouble to get in my pants, it doesn't make sense? He gets this annoyed look.

You're right too, he's very desirable and any woman would be lucky to have him. And he's very special.

I will never leave him and I don't think he'll ever leave me. We just love each other too much, we're too attracted to the other and we're very sexually compatible. As we get older we realize how lucky we are.

I did not coin the "get out of jail free" card, he did. He says that it's because if I would have done that to him that he would have cheated on me to even the score and he just presumes I share this need. When I told him that I wasn't like he he got angry and said, "so you're better than me?" as though I was lacking some basic human need. He's quiet about his anger but when he reacts it's always a way over the top extreme reaction that makes no sense. And often he does things stealthfully to further his distance from participation in conflict. This is what I'm dealing with.

If you do have tools I could use, I am all ears. Honestly.

And JL--when my H had his A in a lot of ways it's because he needed to bring me down. I was going through a lot of changes physically and he was unemployed from a recent layoff, back in school to train for a new career and I was supporting the family and money was really tight. He said he felt like a loser and the more I improved myself the more he self-destructed. The woman he had the A with was an unemployed, twice divorced mother of two who was living in a rental that her parents owned. I guess he felt needed and important and on her level. In some demented way I think he wants me to bring me down to his level when it comes to this whole affair thing. We were the stereotypical bad boy/good girl combo when we were young and as we've matured, obviously we've both grown up and leveled the playing field there, yet it still seems to bother him at times. Somehow my love for him is reassurance that he's worthy. It's hard to explain.

really

start the next conversation with your H with this:



Tell him your thoughts
Tell him your lack of concern for his feelings
Tell him everything

good luck

JA,

If you go back and read your first post here, I think you will realize why your H is very insecure about you and what you will do. He reads you far better than you realize, and he sure does know men far better than you do.

What you have not done is brought him up to YOUR level...yet. That is where the articles on this site and the methods that Harley uses could be a huge resource for you and your H. One of the most unusual things about affairs that the hardest part of recovery is often overcoming the guilt and remores that the WS has. It is sooo counter intuitive.

In fact, Harley's approach to relations and healing from things such as affairs is often described as counter intuitive, but that is because most people don't see all of the dynamics of an affair. THe BS is hurt...hurt deeply. But, the WS hurts themselves in ways that are not easily seen.

I would really like you to think about those questions and talk to your H about them. You two need to really communicate.

You said
What you are seeing is lack of respect for himself and what he did. You are seeing guilt and lack of self-esteem and frankly you don't want him in this state. You want him walking with you in life not a few steps behind. How do you change the dynamics, you look him in the eye and tell him you will not stoop to that, and then offer him your hand ans ask him if he would like to walk WITH you through life. You could do it this simply or a more complex strategy can be devised but if you read Harleys four rules for a good marriage, and his policies of radical honesty and of joint agreement, POJA, you will see how to do this.

Your marriage has NOT recovered from what happened and it needs to.



As you plainly state OM is NOT harmless and your H knows it and knew it from the beginning. Frankly JA men are NOT as oblivious to things as women think, and your H has sized OM up correctly from the beginning. My suggestion is either your H goes with you, OR you don't go. You are and have been in an EA. You may want to debate that but look at your reactions to OM and the ones you have just stated.
[/quote]

You also said
He should be annoyed. You are refusing to trust what he says despite the clear evidence and I wonder if you also reject his opinions in other things. It is time to take your own inventory JA and see how YOU have treated this marriage for the past 5 years. And yes you are in deep, deeper than you know. But, if you were to reread all of the posts to you on this thread, everyone here knows how deep you are/were in. Hence the responses. You are a special woman and you are no fool but you are playing one if you keep OM in your life a day longer. You need to go to your H tell him what is going on, what you were thinking, and thank him for trying to set you straight. You don't realize it but he is trying to save you from something very bad. Don't believe me. Ask him the following questions and watch his face. Ask him if he still feels guilt for what he did. Ask him if he wants you to have an affair with another man. Just ask and watch. I think you will get your answer.

Finally you said
Do you see the guilt coming through in this. Do you see how he feels about himself...very defensive Why? Because he feels is not your equal.

Let me offer you something else to read here. Go read about Disrespectful Judgements, DJ's. They are very deadly love busters. You and your H should do some serious reading. You sound like you have a very good marriage and one that could and would thrive if you both learned a bit more about relationships and how to communicate with in them.

Oh and losing a job to a man is a very very painful thing, especially a man that already feels he has failed his W.

Please think about these things and do some reading of the articles here.

God Bless,

JL

Then WHY ON EARTH were you even thinking of doing this? Most of us on this site would kill to be able to say that.

Knitgirl,

I think I can answer your question. I feel the same way about my DH. JA story reminds me alot of my M. With the exception if the A. I thought I was unworthy of my DH for a long time. I know he is very sweet and attractive, funny and loyal. I think sometimes I own pain either real or precieved can blind us to all the wonderful things we have in our life. I know I was taking my DH for granted.

I know he acts like a mad man the more attractive I becomes. I too know what she means by wanting to feel noticed by her H. I think her top EN is admiration. I think it is because she has such a low opinion of herself for so long. I know this is true in my case. The OM is making her feel special even if his only goal is to make her his good time girl. I think she needs to re-examine the things she is doing that put her M in the state that it is in and ask her H to do the EN Q'aire and LB Q'aire and read HNHN and this will be a very good start for the both of them.

I have to tell you I have been doing this for a little while now and it is not always easy and it doesn't work as soon as you start using it. It can take a while and even then you kind of ack slide from time to time. However in the end it is worth it to try and fix the problems you are having. Anything is life worth having is worth fighting for.

JA let me ask you this. Do you want your H to make you feel desired and womanly. Look at you with that hungry look in his eye? This is my thing.

I have lost 25lbs and you know what everyone that knew me before I lost the wieght says. You look good. What does your H say? I say nothing. He doesn't comment about my weight loss at all unless I ask him.

JA,

You sound like my WW in your first post.

This is not to bash you......actually you sound like one of your EN is probably communication.....and seems frustrated not getting it.

Your M didnt heal...it was tolerated.

You both need to think about Radical Honesty and openess....not a sprint race (the "i want it now" mentality) but a lifestyle........

You know God ...so you know love......1 Cor:13. vs.4.....

Its not about your H...its about you.

A wife is one by definition....not due to what a H does. Yet you dont realize the power you have....the power of choice to do right.

as a child, i kknew that although dad was the head of the house....mom had the real power (dont tell her though). and what stood out was her unshakable love.....for family.

You can make it happen....love your H, broken and imperfect as he is......help him feel safe.

But be open with him...still.

oh yes......as a BH, i just want to say....dont do the unthinkable......to me it is the WORST PAIN that someone can experience and still live with it.....but then again you know this.

JA,

I don't know if I read it or just sensed it. I've reread most of this looking for it but no luck.

One crucial element I see here is that you believe that WH almost wants you to have an affair or, at the very least, is apathetic to the idea. And that hurts you. That may even hurt you more than his own A did. It hurts you because it makes you feel unloved. It's a double whammy. First he makes yoou feel unloved because of his affair. He quits that but now, by all appearances, he doesn't care enough about you to fight for you so you just fall deeper into that hole.

I don't know your WH. But I will state with near certainty that while he may say those words to you, he does not mean them. The fact is your A would cut him off at the knees. But he doesn't feel that he has the right to tell you that. In fact, he may even feel like her deserves the punishment and your A would be carthatic for him in that he would finally be getting what he deserves. It is short sighted thinking but he is not thinking long term. He is looking for a way to ease his guilt.

What I think you want more than anything is to have your WH put his foot down and say that he loves you and will not stand by while hurt yourself and your M. You're saying "hey honey...I'm thinking about going out and having an affair. Is that okay with you?" and he is saying "whatever". What you want him to say is "Look I was wrong. I have no right to ask this but I am not going to let you have an affair!"

That is what you need to hear. What you want is to feel valued by your WH.

I'm betting that is exactly what he wants to do. But he doesn't feel he has the right because of what he did.

Do you know what I really think?

What we have here is a failure to communicate.

Oh you do have an emotional investment. Just re-read your posts. Just end it now, quickly and cleanly. For your own sake.

I agree with piojitos, I think that you want him to show a little backbone and tell you that despite what he did, you simply must not have an affair.

He may say it, but he doesn't really mean that you are entitled to do the same as he did.

There is simply no excuse for an affair, regardless if you are a BS or not.

I also think that you can't be sure what he would do if you had an affair. Most of us BS here would have said they would end their marriage, but then when it actually happened, they fought like heck and rode the rollercoaster trying to achieve recovery.

Who

I do know quite a bit about his personal life, but not through him, just through all of our mutual friends/contacts. His situation with his W is unusual and I didn't want to disclose the details as it's an easy identifier. Let's just say, I know indisputably what is going on there. Does it make it less wrong? No, I guess no, but I seriously wouldn't hurt another woman the way I was. I know just reading what I wrote you won't believe that and I understand. I can't elaborate further, you'll have to just believe that I'd be honest with the relevant details.


this my friends....

is the PERFECT....perfect perfect...

example of the brains ability to rationalize and justify...

see this betrayed spouse....
is different

this betrayed spouse isn;t being hurt

this betrayed spouse isn't like "other" betrayed spouses...

"we are in a different sitaution


no one...and I do mean NO ONE knows indisputably what is really going on in anyones marriage...

not even you.....

a covenant is a covenant is a covenant....

the definition is not interchangable....or set to move this way or that based on whims...

I mean you no disrespect java....

but this paragraph...

is a violation of attempting to rationalize and justify hurtful (terroristic ) choices and actions....

consider yourself being given a citation .... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

ARK^^

I agree with Arkie.

I'm also intrigued, secret but very valid adultery justification based on his wife. Hmmmm.

For arguments sake Java, lets say his wife had her body amputated and only has a brain and a head, is that a valid enough reason to have an affair with her husband. Or, how about if she is a self proclaimed convicted axe murderer. Or maybe a prostitute or a husband beater. Or perhaps she is a crack addict who has aids and is dying.

You see how ridiculous your justification (although veiled from us) reads?

There is no justifiable reason to have an adulteress affair, NONE.

Jo

If that's the case, why don't you just ask his wife's permission to sleep with him? I'm sure she won't mind, in fact, he might be a little better to deal with around the house because he's getting some, so she'll probably be thrilled that you're willing to sleep with him. That will save her a lot of trouble. I'm glad you are looking out for his wife.

Furthermore, I'm sure your husband will be thrilled to learn that you've used your "get out of jail free card," so he doesn't have to worry about when you are going to cash it in anymore. And you get your revenge affair. Everybody wins. Bravo, wonderful idea!!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

np: I have read what you wrote very carefully and am thinking about it. But when do *I* get to feel safe?

Piojitos I've decided that you've hit the nail on the head. It hurts me that he thinks throwing me to the testosterone filled wolves in order to ease his guilt. It hurts me that the very idea of it doesn't make him want to vomit. I can't stand that he gets amused when another guy gets borderline stalkerish with me.

Mindwarped, you're most likely correct.

Whome, you're right and I've decided that trying to stir up some possessiveness about this on the part of my H is not worth risking an STD or having to deal with a messy breakup with an OM who won't leave me alone.

Ark, I'm not going to elaborate and I'm fully aware of what liars cheating spouses are. This is a unique case and I'll leave it at that. There really *are* people with unconventional marriages, open marriages and marriages where security is bartered in exchange for fidelity. This isn't any of those cases, but thanks for your concern.

Resilient: Yeah. It's kinda like that. And I'm fully aware how ridiculous every justification I've made seems. But thanks for the hammering the point. I'm completely done discussing his wife anyhow.

jmw: In a strange sick way you summed it up nicely at the end, and yeah, it did make sense to me at the time, especially when I've been walking around comfortably numb. Thankfully the people who gave me valid, compassionate advice that wasn't full of insults and barbs have helped me to challenge this viewpoint and reconsider it.

But have you told him that?

The thing is I believe the fact that WH won't fight for you has you totally flummoxed. And I don't use that word often.

His apparent indifference makes absolutely no sense to you.

Nor should it.

You are trying to find reason where there is none to be found.

I assure you WH would die a death if you had an A.

I think your M cannot heal until WH heals and relieves himself from his guilt. The fact that he holds this much guilt five years after the fact is puzzling. It's the part I can't seem to let go of. Do you have any idea why?

JA,

Your thread title is wrong. You are not 5 years into recovery. You haven't even started. I've got another option for you that, so far, you have refused to consider. Why not choose to stay with him and choose to be happy? And I can tell you from experience that it is a lot easier than you might think.

One thing I have learned through all this is that nobody else on earth can make me happy except me.

How have you tried to recover your M? Have the two of you tried MB principles? Do you practice the four rules?

I was really dragging along in my sitch. My WW never showed me any real remorse for her A and that bothered me. I was at the point where I was ready to divorce. I begged WW for a D and she finally agreed. We came close. But then something changed. I changed. I decided that rather than just be content, I would be happy. Now WW isn't really even an issue any more. You cannot change your WH. You said he has done all the right things and yet it isn't enough for you. Make it enough. Start looking at this differently.

If you do start looking at this differently, I bet you aren't more that a few short days away from true happiness. You are so close and don't even realize it.