I was thinking this morning...that sometimes I "wish" that STBX would change and I see this in alot of BS who are separated, etc.

In some cases, the fact of the matter is that the WS will not/does not change or want that change or even see a need for change...in some cases the blams is planted squarely on the BS...in others I see that the WS in not trying to blame the BS for everything and are willing to admit to their fair share of contributioning to the problems that led up to the affair...

From my POV, an affair is a symptom of the problems that need to be addresses...now I'm not trying to use those problems as an excuse to justify an affair...there is no justification for that...

I guess I'm trying to get to how the recovery process starts...I'm not looking to recovery my M but let me use myself...

POWS has A, I've tried for years to get the two of us into counseling, he refused to go...A happens, I start to change, seek counseling for myself, and set up MC...POWS agrees, for whatever reason and lets keep PA behavior out of this, and then changes his mind stating that he doesn't want anyone else knowing our business...that we can work this out on our own...

I feel on the other hand that we can not work this out on our own...now there's a complete lose of trust from both S...therefore separation occurs...a D may be filed...and a whole new set of issues are thrown into the mix...creating more distrust...

One S still hopes that the marriage can be saved, or hopes that the other S will change...this is were I see this individual probably stepping into fantasy...when reality is that the other spouse feels there is no hope and they have done everything that they could and only wants out from that point on...

Neither side is willing to change their POV...how is it possible to compromise/create a plan for the probability of recovery if one person see this set of issues needing to be address and the other person sees another set of issues needing to be address...where do you go from here? how do you get both parties out of withdrawal and back into conflict, hoping to move forward into the first stage...

Let's take me again I say "I tried to get you to go to MC and you didn't want that...I tried to talk to you and let you know that I was unhappy, you didn't hear me...I feel like I tried everything that I could...Why should I try now?"

I have had this discussion with POWS...I'm hoping to help others out there, so let's see if we can get this ball rolling! Thank you in advance for expressing your opinion and adding your POV to the topic... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

At this point only actions will mean a dang thing. Things take time, and it takes time to show changes, and even longer for the other person to believe that the changes are real.

In a Plan A, you also have the added benefit of creating a safe, loving environment...and again with time the feelings will change from indifference, or resentment.

Things take time and changes must be real are the two parts I can think of.

I can see where you are coming from...last Oct. I was ready to leave the M...there was still C with OW, and there were other things going on too...WH promised that he would be whatever it took, for however long it took...

Of course, all words from my POV...I have been seeing this alot and I know that it fits the alien profile...anywho, I stayed...he was coming home straight from work, spending time with us, we were chatting, but there was still contract with OW...some of his actions where speaking to me...

Of course, like any BS, I wanted to believe that he was going to do what he said he was...not the case...by March I was done...I couldn't accept his unacceptable behavior any more...

Now that I have left and have been gone for four months...some part of me, as I see with other MBers...still hope that there is change...wishing for change...hence, jumping into fantasy...the truth of the matter is there is none...so I see a problem there and I guess that's why Dr. Harley Talks about the two year period...

PLan B...

I understand your POV here. I still wish for change in my WH. I now wish it for different reasons than I did when we first separated in February. I wish now that he would change for my DD2. I hold out no hope that he will realize his mistake and come home. He has shown me through the course of 8 months that he is determined to divorce. He does not want to recover our marriage. I think he believes that in his mind he is okay the way he is. There is no need for him to change at all if we divorce. That is the easier road for him. He has accepted his shortcomings and has found someone that has no problem with him the way he is. She validates his behavior.

There really was no convincing him that the path he was on was destructive and wrong. I was wrong in thinking I could show him that he needed to change. I know I played a part in driving him away. I was not accepting of him the way he was. I just was not willing to sacrifice my own happiness to stay with someone focused soley on himself. I think your husband behaved similarly. In reality, I have been a single mom for almost three years now. That is the truth of what our marriage was. It was not a partnership, I was an indentured servant. I think once you face the reality of your past, you realize that there is no moving forward without change in the other person. If they are not willing to change...that is the reality. Fantasy is believing they will change when their behavior shows you a consistent pattern otherwise.

I have not had a conversation with my husband about this. I probably never will. Doing so serves no purpose but to cause me pain and disappointment.

There you have it! The path of least resistance...do they know that they are doing "wrong" and they are doing it anyway...we've seen that recently...my WH said that he liked having OW and me at the same time...OUCH...classic WH...


Waking up from fantasy land myself...this is one of the reasons, I chose to leave.


Same with me, I felt like I have three kids instead of two!


Yes, and I see myself and some others, diving into that fantasy from time to time...in my case, I have to remind myself of the pattern that existed/exists...

I know for me, coming to the reality of my whole sitch was extremely hard to face the facts and own my mistakes...ultimately my mistake was parenting instead of partnering...

From my POV, POWS has a long WAYYYYSSS to go and I don't see "US" getting back together...like I said A was a symptom of the underlaying problems... it just forced me to ever so slowly come to terms with the whole picture...personal recovery...a success...through being here and learning...

So, what's the point that the other person has to get to? Rock bottom? Realizing that there is a problem?

I would love to hear about those who were remorsful and how they got to that point...

I have a very similar problem. Only WH came home because he says its the right thing to do because he made a committment to me 24 yrs ago. But his actions show he doesn't want to be there. He continued to let OW contact him he just didn't contact back, thinking she would go away. Instead she went "fatal attraction" on us, threatening suicide & guilt-tripping him big time. A few days have been good. But I know every time she contacts because he is different & I know its because he misses her. I've gone to counseling, changed the things about me I wanted to change & lost 28 lbs on the infidelity diet (here we call it the SOB diet). Last night & this morning I flat out told him that if he wanted to fight he would have to find someone else because I wasn't gonna do it. July 4th started out good, we were making plans & then all of a sudden, in a split second, he changed, picked a fight, I finally left & he called & asked me out to eat. We went & he told me he doesn't know or understand why he keeps doing this stuff to me & us. What do you say to that???

Well, for me, I can say that WH said that his pride got in the way...I didn't/don't understand that...

I think that it's a matter of not having the tools needed to move forward...you are doing what you need to do, but he's not sure where to get the tools or even that he needs the tools...

My WH said that there was nothing wrong with him...from my POV, he doesn't know that he needs tools to go forward in life...not gaining those tools creates a downward sprial for them...

My WH said once that he knew that he had a problem with blaming...but I can tell you that he doesn't know how to fix that...

Thing is, we can't teach them...we can't do anything for them, they have to want to want it!

When dealing with a WS, and YOU make changes that were definitely hindering a healthy relationship, BUT the WS continues down the wayward brick road, it is time to step away from the wayward.

Some people never hit rock bottom, for they find people to keep carrying them along in their descent. It's easy to find people living in their own misery, looking for any crumb to pick them up, if even only for a minute. I wish them all health and happiness, but wishing doesn't change others' decisions.

Rin, I hear you saying that, upon being away from the wayward for 4 months, you still hold out hope that THEY will change. That's not really fantasy. You would prefer that you are faced with a good, kind man, one who loves his children beyond all. When carefully prodded, you see the wayward still spewing venom. The fantasy would be deluding yourself into believing that YOU can affect this change or that you can wait it out until he DOES change==leading you to allow a wayward BACK into your life.

Thanks SL, that makes a whole lot of sense...I understand that I can't affect his choice to change or not...I understand that there is nothing that I can do...

Yes, I would love to have "that man" in my life, why? Because of the history that we have together, it would be great, however, I can't live by his terms and he can't live by mine...

I see what you are saying about there being OP to pick them up and make them feel good...I see POWS doing that just with the HNs alone...

And I'm not about to wait around for him to do his thing either...hoping for the best for POWS, for example, is similar to hoping for the best for my kids...

I can hope, but anything is possible...

I was thinking earlier that expectation was a huge downfall in my M...and we can go into blind trust there also...I expected him as me DH to protect me from being hurt...like MC, when he ended up no going to MC with me, i felt abandoned...like I was the only one in the marriage...it's really a matter of what I expected from him...

Is my thinking lining up on that one?

Consider this, now you have the tools to work on yourself, and to seek out someone else with LIKE principles, morals, beliefs, etc. It's not about expectation anymore, you will not have to worry about expectations, for you will find someone who fulfills your core needs, you will find someone who you can be open and honest with, accepting of each other. You have the tools to thrive, Rin, and can find someone else who is more than willing to learn about those fantastic tools, because you will not settle, nor will you sell yourself short.

It's a tough lesson to learn. I am learning it, even while in recovery. Expectations are not good, we must be forward, honest and open, without LB or DJ's and make the other person aware of our needs, and we must work on fulfilling their needs.

Part of forgiveness is forgiving yourself, for whatever reason. I read and wonder if you feel like you were an idiot to ever get involved with your WH in the first place. Rin, did you have the tools that you have now? Did you have faith in yourself? Did you love yourself so that you could find the RIGHT person to love you? From the sound of it, your WH has been of the wayward frame of mind for many years, far before any A's surfaced. How were you to KNOW this?

Silent - those actually are very good questions. I ask myself that same thing. And have some of the answers. It's just getting past the part where you promised G-d to love him in sickness and in health. To me, my WH is very sick and I just can't give up on him now.

I had a long talk with his aunt and he was so abused as a child that I know he is hurting deeper than he will ever admit. He avoids things and this is the easiest way for him to avoid by thinking everything is wonderful in a new relationship.

Strivn and Silent - I have so much respect for your strength.

SG

First Off, SG, YOU, yes, YOU are a child of GOD, right? Would God want his child to be treated with such disrespect?

THank you for the compliment also! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Your WH may be hurting like you said but HE is the one that has to face that, there is nothing that YOU can say or do that will "make" him face it...he's got to want to want it!

Now, SL, to answer your questions...no, I didn't have the tools when I married him...I don't regret marrying POWS, I truely don't...there are a ton of benefits from the marriage...unfortunately we grew apart...I changed, and I believe that he has stayed exactly in the same spot...

POWS was Wayward when I married him...I stood at the end of the isle telling myself that I shouldn't be marrying him and yet I chose to do it anyway...

WE worked great as a team in some ways, I was abused as a child and wasn't taught boundaries...regardless of what I did or didn't learn, I make that choice and I have acquired new tools as time passed, well, he didn't like that...

I didn't love myself, not really, and I didn't have faith in the right areas that I needed...I'm a go getter, an achiever, but when it came to him, I allowed him to treat me that way...I made it easy for him...

I thought I was marrying someone different than I got...hard lesson to learn like you said but I learned from it and I feel pretty darn confident about the future...

I thought I was marrying an achiever also...but he got stuck somewhere...and I didn't get the partner I thought I was and being over-responsible...I didn't see what I really got myself into...

I brought up this topic because I see alot of people floundering with the same issues...and for me I guess I need to have a few things resolved before I go driven in the sea... :0 <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thank you so much SL, I appreciate you asking me those questions...I get teh opportunity to express my thoughts in writing...thrus holding me to my words! LMAO <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Like MC, where you are the BS or WS why would you not want to go to MC? I got he didn't want to air our stuff to a stranger...it's personal...we can do this by ourselves...

I also had a friend, until this D, that said that he didn't want to go to MC with HIs W, neither were Wayward...he admitted that was a huge mistake on his part...years later the two of them reuniting after their D, and are now married...

Strive,

No, G-d wouldn't want it, but I also take the responsibility of allowing it because I didn't know any different.

I see so much of my relationship in your story or wisdom. I just can't shake the feeling that I didn't try my hardest and once I do that, then I can walk away. I have let go and given him to G-d as truly that is the only one who can help him now.

But the pain is unbearable at times and I look to this forum on how people move on.

Two months seems like eternity. I always said time was going too fast. Now it isn't fast enough.

SG

SG, you shouldn't even be at the point of wakling away right now...YOu should be plan Aing your @ss off, exposing the A...you, my dear heart or nowhere near Plan B or D...

God also helps those who help themselves and you need to get on the ball with a plan...network, talk to some people who are in similiar sitch...WH not at home and you trying to plan A...

Heck, read BUGS' thread...start at the beginning...call her out, whatever it takes...focus on YOU, improve you to become the person that anyone would want to be with...

Now, go, hop to it... LMAO <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Strivn -

I have to go find her thread - how do I do that?

I have been working on me and doing Plan A. I have lost 40 lbs, gone back to AA, gotten a sponsor am working the steps, just as nice as can be when he calls. Have given up all my volunteer work, am exercising regularly. The house is clean, the house is calm. Made amends with my daughter etc.

What more can I do when he isn't living at home?

SG

Strivn -

I have to go find her thread - how do I do that?

I have been working on me and doing Plan A. I have lost 40 lbs, gone back to AA, gotten a sponsor am working the steps, just as nice as can be when he calls. Have given up all my volunteer work, am exercising regularly. The house is clean, the house is calm. Made amends with my daughter etc.

What more can I do when he isn't living at home? OH and I listen to him intently when he talks. I try to get as much time with him as possible.

SG

Strivin ~ it's been my experience that as long as I sit around waiting for someone else to change so that I can be happy...I'm not going to get much resolution.

Here is an old old thread that I started 6 years ago - just weeks after my husband returned home after 18 months of seperation. It has some insights as to why my husband decided to change, and what motivated him to come back into conflict from withdrawal..

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...&PHPSESSID=